How long before Dyche comes under real pressure

[Sleeping Cat]

The thing that bothers me is that this is the same squad with additions that played some brilliant football at Palace, Everton, Wolves last season so there is football in the squad so as manager it`s up to Dyche to ensure that this type of performance is the norm as much as possible not the borefest we are witnessing at the moment, whatever it takes to achieve ie. picking players he seems not to like/prefer, extra training

I agree with this. We can and do sometimes play good expansive football, but it is very much dependant on 3-4 players being on the pitch and that isn't always the case due to injuries or manager choice.

[claretgimmer]

Your right SC but he has had a pretty full availability this year and with the additions I feel we shouldn`t be as far away from those performances as we are

[bfcjg]

I don't think Dyche does pressure, week in week out the same players underperform and it accepted, I think his security of employment has filtered down.

[Boss Hogg]

I don't think Dyche does pressure, week in week out the same players underperform and it accepted, I think his security of employment has filtered down.

Think there is a lot of truth in this. All PL managers have financial security whether they are fired or not but nobody wants their reputation tarnished or not to be wanted by clubs once fired. Managers of other clubs are under serious threat if a few results don’t go their way. Clubs don’t stick with mangers long enough but equally there has to be some pressure. Also things often do go stale in any job role if let long enough regardless of historic performance.

[nyclaret]

Sean does need to make some changes and make something happen sooner rather than later. I understand he was dealt a bad hand by our previous owner but he does get paid a fortune (reportedly earning 100k a week). Now he needs to earn his coin.

[EarbyClaret]

Specifically on the Vokes/Crouch deal - as I understand it

Stoke insisted Crouch was part of the deal because they needed him off the wage bill. Dyche's preferred replacement for Vokes was Rodriguez - who wasn't available in the January window with West Brom in a Championship promotion battle

Crouch intended to retire at the end of the season.

Dyche used the fee from the sale of Vokes to buy Rodriguez at the start of the following season

[ksrclaret]

It’s an odd one because I think it’s almost inevitable that when Dyche leaves we’ll have a downward spiral and probably a few ‘periods of transition’. It’s so often the way when a manager leaves who’s been there forever. Everything about the way the club runs on the football side has been crafted by him, and it’ll be so hard for someone else to come in and run with it.

It’s going to happen at some point though and I think if this season does end in relegation, it’ll be the natural time for that process to begin.

[beddie]

It’s an odd one because I think it’s almost inevitable that when Dyche leaves we’ll have a downward spiral and probably a few ‘periods of transition’. It’s so often the way when a manager leaves who’s been there forever. Everything about the way the club runs on the football side has been crafted by him, and it’ll be so hard for someone else to come in and run with it.

It’s going to happen at some point though and I think if this season does end in relegation, it’ll be the natural time for that process to begin.

Well I for one hope of course we don’t go down but if we do I’d really want no other than SD to try and get us back up, I think he’s earned that right.

[Stayingup]

What is/must be a concern is that we have led in games and relinquished the lead. The Brighton game was for me a very bad loss. They hadn't had a shot in the first half and we could easily have added to our lead. Losing leads must be a major concern to SD as we used to be very good at protecting a lead. Losing leads must put pressure on the management. But with a lucrative four year deal.signed that pressure will.no doubt be tempered.

[Lancasterclaret]

What is/must be a concern is that we have led in games and relinquished the lead. The Brighton game was for me a very bad loss. They hadn't had a shot in the first half and we could easily have added to our lead. Losing leads must be a major concern to SD as we used to be very good at protecting a lead. Losing leads must put pressure on the management. But with a lucrative four year deal.signed that pressure will.no doubt be tempered.

The fault there is with the team for not taking their chances in that 1st half

Brighton did a Burnley on us, but we absolutely contributed to our defeat by the strikers (and others) inability to take advantage of how much we were on top

[ClaretAL]

The fault there is with the team for not taking their chances in that 1st half

Brighton did a Burnley on us, but we absolutely contributed to our defeat by the strikers (and others) inability to take advantage of how much we were on top

Agreed but they changed their formation to 5 in midfield and we didn't counter that and got overrun. So there is a percentage of blame at the door of the manager. But as you say we should have been out of sight by then.

[The Enclosure]

Americans believe me in my business experience are interested in results.and they do not do loyalty.If we dont start getting a few wins then the pressure will start to build on Mr Dyche both from the fans and the Directors.
Ok Sean has just signed a good deal but contracts these days dont mean a lot if managers are not performing..

[Shaggy]

If there isn’t pressure on SD then we deserve all that we get. Our form is horrendous for a long time now and we are stuck doing the same things without change.

[Stayingup]

Agreed but they changed their formation to 5 in midfield and we didn't counter that and got overrun. So there is a percentage of blame at the door of the manager. But as you say we should have been out of sight by then.

Correct that some blame could be attributed to the managements lack of response to Potters changes. But good management from Potter. Actually a rather sickening loss that one.

[Stayingup]

Americans believe me in my business experience are interested in results.and they do not do loyalty.If we dont start getting a few wins then the pressure will start to build on Mr Dyche both from the fans and the Directors.
Ok Sean has just signed a good deal but contracts these days dont mean a lot if managers are not performing..

This one might if there is xxx million payoff invloved.

[Ric_C]

It's almost as if some on here are actually desperate for Dyche to be sacked.

This Premier league lark was never going to be easy was it? Grow some balls and get behind the team.

[KRBFC]

Screenshot_20211029-010514.png

Think wiki must have made a mistake then.

Did you type that on wiki?

[Jakubclaret]

Did you type that on wiki?

Have a look yourself, google peter crouch & scroll down to club career it's the last 1 before retirement

[KRBFC]

Doesn't matter. The point is that with that record, the squad was clearly adequate for the time; and the only other real argument KRBFC can make is that we didn't need a reserve because Wood, Barnes, Rodriguez weren't going to get injured. Which would be an odd argument.

No, my point was there is no future planning, we should've used that Vokes money to bring in the next Danny Ings/Andre Gray. We spunked it on Rodriguez and Crouch wages.

[KRBFC]

I think some people are mistakenly viewing the crouch signing as some sort of a long term project, what was he 37/38 when he arrived? I think he'd already signalled his intentions to hang his boots up at the end of the season it was never going to be anything longer than a season maximum, it wasn't designed to be anything different than that.

which is exactly my point, where is the forward thinking in that? we are putting tissue paper over gaping holes by signing players who are old, on big wages and not good enough? What happens when Cork isn't good enough (like now)? Where's the striker to replace Barnes?

[Jakubclaret]

Specifically on the Vokes/Crouch deal - as I understand it

Stoke insisted Crouch was part of the deal because they needed him off the wage bill. Dyche's preferred replacement for Vokes was Rodriguez - who wasn't available in the January window with West Brom in a Championship promotion battle

Crouch intended to retire at the end of the season.

Dyche used the fee from the sale of Vokes to buy Rodriguez at the start of the following season

That’s exactly what I’ve been trying to explain minus the vokes money used to finance the Rodriguez signing, Stoke wouldn’t have it any other way & crouch wanted to finish his career off on a high in the PL. we effectively signed a striker for nothing & signed a better striker, it’s complicated because vokes fee was undisclosed rumoured to be around £7m with wolves receiving around £1.5m the JR was £5m upfront & £5m in add ons if the add ons ever became payable.

[boatshed bill]

See ….. it’s stuff like this. It gets bandied about and people don’t really think about what it means.

Why is it a results driven business?

What does that even mean?

What is a result?

How long do you like at results over?


If it is a results driven business ….. and you judge purely on results ….. then surely at the end of the season only one team (the league winner) has been successful in each division. And that’s a nonsense.

We’re getting to a point now where we have three clubs backed by individuals with unimaginable wealth, two huge institutions in United and Liverpool, plus other massive clubs like Spurs and Arsenal. It doesn’t matter how rich you are, how much you pump in ….. only one side can win the league every year. It’s absolutely mental if you judge us on our results when we’re competing against that.

Why is it a results driven business? Why can’t we look at our training ground, our improvements to the ground, the standing of the club - all of which have been massively improved and continue to be improved - and say that trumps the results? Actual legacy stuff that will be around for decades? Who decreed results are more important than that?

To my mind having that training ground and producing players like Dwight and Lewis Richardson, improving players like Nathan Collins ….. all of that is more important than only getting a draw against Southampton.

If you start looking at Burnley through the prism of arbitrary tutt like “results driven business” you’ll always, always, always be disappointed.

Just because you have borrowed your user name from someone clever doesn't entitle you to be dismissive of others' opinions or commonly used terminology.
You scoff at "results driven" and then come up with "the prism of arbitrary tatt" laughable.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

which is exactly my point, where is the forward thinking in that? we are putting tissue paper over gaping holes by signing players who are old, on big wages and not good enough? What happens when Cork isn't good enough (like now)? Where's the striker to replace Barnes?

This is the part where you need to untwist your knickers and just hold on for a few windows to see what happens.
I know it's going to be difficult for you, because you love twisting them, but please do try

For all we know, Cornet could be our version of Antonio at West Ham.
Or Wood might find his shooting boots and Cornet can move out to the flank.

The club is now taking clear and obvious forward steps to update the squad instesd of treading water.

Vokes started 10 league games, only finished 2 and came on as a sub in another 10 out of the 24 games he was in the squad for and scored 3 goals, played a total of 920mins, less than half of what he was available for in the league.

He played in the Europa League games but didn't set the world alight there either.
His time with us was done and we had the chance to get in some good money for him, yet the way you're screeching about it, we could be forgiven for thinking we'd given him away for nothing.

Jay was potentially a good signing, had a good goal scoring season in the championship prior to.rejoining us and had PL experience, for a good price.
It probably hasn't worked out how most of us would like, but that's how it goes at times and he's had our most prolific PL striker ahead of him in all fairness...

Have we wasted money over the years?
Yes, but hindsight is a wonderful thing and all clubs waste money unintentionally.

You mentioned Ings, but it's taken him several years to get as prolific in the PL as he is now, but even then he's only had one very high scoring season.

You've also mentioned Gray but he seemingly regressed after leaving us and I was certain he'd go on to score a lot more at Watford.

[Lancasterclaret]

Just because you have borrowed your user name from someone clever doesn't entitle you to be dismissive of others' opinions or commonly used terminology.
You scoff at "results driven" and then come up with "the prism of arbitrary tatt" laughable.

I think dismissing other peoples opinions is perfectly fine

Its up to the person whose opinions are being dismissed to come up with effective counter arguments

We are a team that would be happy as larry to finish 17th every season, and I think the remarkable success that SD has bought over his time here means that is something we forget

[boatshed bill]

I wouldn't waste my time countering this, would you?

"See ….. it’s stuff like this. It gets bandied about and people don’t really think about what it means.

Why is it a results driven business?

What does that even mean?

What is a result?

How long do you like at results over?"

[Lancasterclaret]

I wouldn't waste my time countering this, would you?

"See ….. it’s stuff like this. It gets bandied about and people don’t really think about what it means.

Why is it a results driven business?

What does that even mean?

What is a result?

How long do you like at results over?"

But he's right though!

Remember how annoyed everyone was at Leicester ditching Ranieri a few months after he's won then the prem?

This is a bit similar I'm afraid

[boatshed bill]

But he's right though!

Remember how annoyed everyone was at Leicester ditching Ranieri a few months after he's won then the prem?

This is a bit similar I'm afraid

Not in my opinion. but more to the point, that is part of the response to my post in which I clearly state that I don't think I've seen a "Dyche out" post on this thread.

[Lancasterclaret]

Not in my opinion. but more to the point, that is part of the response to my post in which I clearly state that I don't think I've seen a "Dyche out" post on this thread.

The thread question itself is fairly along those lines surely?

[boatshed bill]

The thread question itself is fairly along those lines surely?

I'd say that is a matter of interpretation.
I would sooner take it as it is written. It doesn't say "when will SD get the sack" does it?

[SouthLondonexile]

I think SD will be putting himself under pressure for our performances so far.
Where I do think SD will be put under real pressure is if we lose to Brentford, having taken the lead in the game.
I am guessing that if that happens the owners will hold an EGM on Monday.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'd say that is a matter of interpretation.
I would sooner take it as it is written. It doesn't say "when will SD get the sack" does it?

Its certainly a matter of interpretation, but it doesn't take much to interpret it the way I'm taking it tbf!

[Dark Cloud]

Mr Pace would look rather silly having just given SD another 4 year deal and then sacking him a few weeks later, BUT it's happened other places, so you never know. I actually don't think he'll be put under any real pressure from above or any place, even if we get relegated (whether he SHOULD be is another matter!) I do, however, think he'll resign this time if that happens and decide himself it's time for a fresh start.
Just as an aside, I really think he's struggling with a lack of options tbh and it's not his fault. In the summer we did some pretty excellent recruiting, but things had been allowed to slide to the point where even 3 really good first eleven signings really aren't enough to turn the ship around. Too many other previously excellent performers have been allowed to grow older, slower and to become basically ineffective without being challenged or pressed or moved on. If the time was right for Vokes, Arfield, Heaton and Boyd to be shunted off, then surely there's a whole load of others hanging in there way past their current use by date. The trouble is, one decent window really wasn't ever going to be enough and that's not SDs fault imo. He's making do with what he's got and it's seriously lacking!

[boatshed bill]

Mr Pace would look rather silly having just given SD another 4 year deal and then sacking him a few weeks later, BUT it's happened other places, so you never know. I actually don't think he'll be put under any real pressure from above or any place, even if we get relegated (whether he SHOULD be is another matter!) I do, however, think he'll resign this time if that happens and decide himself it's time for a fresh start.
Just as an aside, I really think he's struggling with a lack of options tbh and it's not his fault. In the summer we did some pretty excellent recruiting, but things had been allowed to slide to the point where even 3 really good first eleven signings really aren't enough to turn the ship around. Too many other previously excellent performers have been allowed to grow older, slower and to become basically ineffective without being challenged or pressed or moved on. If the time was right for Vokes, Arfield, Heaton and Boyd to be shunted off, then surely there's a whole load of others hanging in there way past their current use by date. The trouble is, one decent window really wasn't ever going to be enough and that's not SDs fault imo. He's making do with what he's got and it's seriously lacking!

This is a really good post.
The only question I would ask is whether some of the older players should have been given such long contracts at their last renewal. And who makes these decisions?

[DCWat]

Mr Pace would look rather silly having just given SD another 4 year deal and then sacking him a few weeks later, BUT it's happened other places, so you never know. I actually don't think he'll be put under any real pressure from above or any place, even if we get relegated (whether he SHOULD be is another matter!) I do, however, think he'll resign this time if that happens and decide himself it's time for a fresh start.
Just as an aside, I really think he's struggling with a lack of options tbh and it's not his fault. In the summer we did some pretty excellent recruiting, but things had been allowed to slide to the point where even 3 really good first eleven signings really aren't enough to turn the ship around. Too many other previously excellent performers have been allowed to grow older, slower and to become basically ineffective without being challenged or pressed or moved on. If the time was right for Vokes, Arfield, Heaton and Boyd to be shunted off, then surely there's a whole load of others hanging in there way past their current use by date. The trouble is, one decent window really wasn't ever going to be enough and that's not SDs fault imo. He's making do with what he's got and it's seriously lacking!

It’s been said on plenty of occasions, that bringing in more than the sort of numbers that we recruited in the summer, is too big an upheaval.

Had contracts and finances allowed, I suspect we’d have seen at least a further couple of incomings. The vast majority of us could see that more were needed, and where they were needed, so blatantly Dyche can.

I don’t think there’s a risk of Dyche being potted - they’ll have discussed recent form, the risk of relegation, future windows etc. and I’d assume that there are plans in place for either outcome.

Previously during difficult runs it’s very much been about going back to doing the basics right - that time needs to start quickly and some of our experienced pros need to step up to the plate.

This isn’t all on Dyche (or previous lack of investment), there have been too many under par displays from too many of our players. It’s time for some of them to really step up to the plate.

[KRBFC]

Dyche brought in Rodriguez for £10m and 50k a week, why wasn't Barnes' long term replacement bought instead?

It's easy to sit back and blame Garlick entirely but the vision and future planning wasn't there at all and that lays at Dyche's door.

[KRBFC]

Why was £5m spent on Stephens (fee + wages) over 2 years instead of Cork's long term replacement?

Dyche identified these players.....

Alex Mowatt went to WBA on a free transfer in the last window, we could've done a whole lot worse.

[DCWat]

Dyche brought in Rodriguez for £10m and 50k a week, why wasn't Barnes' long term replacement bought instead?

It's easy to sit back and blame Garlick entirely but the vision and future planning wasn't there at all and that lays at Dyche's door.

I don’t disagree about the lack of longer term planning with some signings. Dyche has, for whatever reason(s), appeared to go for the tried and tested.

Its hard to criticise with what he’s achieved but I do think our apparently frugal approach was not actually as penny mindful of the pennies as it might have been. Ultimately it’s been more about achieving PL status than forward planning.

[Socrates]

Just because you have borrowed your user name from someone clever doesn't entitle you to be dismissive of others' opinions or commonly used terminology.
You scoff at "results driven" and then come up with "the prism of arbitrary tatt" laughable.

Mate …..

[boatshed bill]

Mate …..

I think he stole it too

[KRBFC]

I don't think Dyche should be under pressure, I would just like to see in future, more forward planning in the market. I think we took a step forward in the last window with that but previous windows targets and incomings have left us with a squad where several players just aren't good enough anymore. Money was spent under Garlick, just not wisely enough.

[Lancasterclaret]

I don't think Dyche should be under pressure, I would just like to see in future, more forward planning in the market. I think we took a step forward in the last window with that but previous windows targets and incomings have left us with a squad where several players just aren't good enough anymore. Money was spent under Garlick, just not wisely enough.

Yes, but we have the short term aim of survival every year, and the long term aim of improving the squad

Add the reluctance to look "outside the box" for players (hate the term but it fits here) and we are essentially buying English players from the championship, and the premium the very best have means we can't compete for them so we get the ones running out of contract, or the ones that we think can do a job

This summer has been a welcome change, because we've invested in three good, young players at sensible prices

And its known now that SD has a lot less control than he had, so that is certainly a factor as well

I just hope we don't get caught out by the squad essentially not replicating the faith that SD has in them

[KRBFC]

Yes, but we have the short term aim of survival every year, and the long term aim of improving the squad

Add the reluctance to look "outside the box" for players (hate the term but it fits here) and we are essentially buying English players from the championship, and the premium the very best have means we can't compete for them so we get the ones running out of contract, or the ones that we think can do a job

This summer has been a welcome change, because we've invested in three good, young players at sensible prices

And its known now that SD has a lot less control than he had, so that is certainly a factor as well

I just hope we don't get caught out by the squad essentially not replicating the faith that SD has in them

Has the squad improved long term though? I'd argue that while many of the players are the same, they're the same in name only and not ability.

There are obvious examples like Cork, Barnes, JBG but I'm a big Charlie Taylor fan and for the last year he hasn't reached the level of previous. I had him as one of the top 3 LBs in the league in 2019-20, since then he's clearly dipped in levels imo. Then we have the short term form of Pope, Westwood and Wood, Pope probably from injury and Wood maybe down to lack of rest in the summer? Does Westwood fit in the group of Barnes, JBG and Cork? probably not because he was decent last season.

I agree we made 3 very good additions in the summer, it does seem Dyche has less say on transfers which is a good thing imo, there simply has to be a policy change, we need to become a selling club again, where bigger clubs are looking at our young in form talent.

As for the squad not replicating SD faith, I don't think it's a lack of effort, certain players shouldn't be shown so much faith at the expense of others.

[Lancasterclaret]

Has the squad improved long term though? I'd argue that while many of the players are the same, they're the same in name only and not ability.

There are obvious examples like Cork, Barnes, JBG but I'm a big Charlie Taylor fan and for the last year he hasn't reached the level of previous. I had him as one of the top 3 LBs in the league in 2019-20, since then he's clearly dipped in levels imo. Then we have the short term form of Pope, Westwood and Wood, Pope probably from injury and Wood maybe down to lack of rest in the summer? Does Westwood fit in the group of Barnes, JBG and Cork? probably not because he was decent last season.

I agree we made 3 very good additions in the summer, it does seem Dyche has less say on transfers which is a good thing imo, there simply has to be a policy change, we need to become a selling club again, where bigger clubs are looking at our young in form talent.

As for the squad not replicating SD faith, I don't think it's a lack of effort, certain players shouldn't be shown so much faith at the expense of others.

No, but we've managed the short term aim of surviving each year

I think its a season too far for at least three or four of them, but SD doesn't, and he knows a lot more than me!

I hope he's right

[diamondpocket]

Great Memories, hopefully many more to come:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qV8x2GtlZK0

How much we could we benefit from a star signing to make an impact ala this one in Jan:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlFIs8gfKdA
Favourite ever goal GILLS AWAY. What a mammoth trip on a Tuesday night it was but well worth it, not only to see his 1st goal for us but the importance of it, too.

[Jimmymaccer]

I'm sorry but Garlick isn't picking the team, coaching the team, signing the players.
Garlick definitely held back the funding towards the end but look at the shite we spent real money on and the mess that has now created.

Rodriguez £10m 50k p/w
Stephens £1m 37,500 p/w
Gibson £15m shite
Brady £13m shite
Hendrick £9m shite
Lennon no doubt another 40k a week shite


There is one man signing, retaining(in some cases), coaching and selecting these shite players and his name isn't Garlick.

Not disagreeing KRBFC…….some serious money sunk into that list but given achievements over his tenure he deserves surely to be cut a bit of slack given events …….but you’re not wrong that ultimately he has to deliver………

UTC and let’s hope tomorrow brings that win, even a “scruffy one”!

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Not disagreeing KRBFC…….some serious money sunk into that list but given achievements over his tenure he deserves surely to be cut a bit of slack given events …….but you’re not wrong that ultimately he has to deliver………

UTC and let’s hope tomorrow brings that win, even a “scruffy one”!

He has delivered, year after year we've stayed in the PL and we've finished top 10 twice.

What more are you expecting?

[snapcrackleandpop]

I'd say that is a matter of interpretation.
I would sooner take it as it is written. It doesn't say "when will SD get the sack" does it?

You are correct Bill this is NOT a Dyche out thread it was a simple question because the last 12 months have not been great no matter how you dress it up.

[tarkys_ears]

Dyche...the NHS of Burnley Football Club

[Jimmymaccer]

He has delivered, year after year we've stayed in the PL and we've finished top 10 twice.

What more are you expecting?

Nothing……..just that no one is indespensible and ultimately someone somewhere says it’s enough…..even Dyche says the day will come when he moves on, for whatever reason…

I for one am right behind the man and relieved for all we got that win…..and with the new ownership, whilst early days relatively, really think we have more good times to come…….

[boatshed bill]

Nothing……..just that no one is indespensible and ultimately someone somewhere says it’s enough…..even Dyche says the day will come when he moves on, for whatever reason…

I for one am right behind the man and relieved for all we got that win…..and with the new ownership, whilst early days relatively, really think we have more good times to come…….

I hope you are right, but let's not forget it's only a win and we are still in the bottom 3.
A long way to go yet.