Abu Dhabi F1

[Devils_Advocate]

I suggest the VAR ref deliberately didn’t interpret the rules in the very same way. It’s in a pressure situation, your example could be decided in an armchair with no pressure whatsoever. Plus the CP decision could still get us relegated.

You can suggest all you want but its subjective and you have form for being very fanciful and creative when trying to argue a point.

Its still completely different to the point/question I was making and if you are unable to understand that then fair enough but what you're saying has nothing to do with my conversation so no interest to me

[Stanbill05]

Great season and a well deserved title to Max who took this with a slightly inferior car . Shame it had to be via a safety car, and awful luck for Lewis .The unlapping etc during a safety car is the standard practice ,so the decision was technically correct despite the incessant wailing of the Lewis fan boys ,and the understandable Teutonic rage of Toto. Let’s not forget the great Kimi Räikkönen retired today ,a pity Alpha offered him such a hideous car these last 3 seasons but an absolute legend .

Lol. Standard practice?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So FIA have tweeted that Max is champion, but the 2nd appeal result won't be announced for another 10 mins.

[taio]

Absolutely immense. What a race, what a season.

[PeterWilton]

I'm a Hamilton fan but I don't really get how you can say race control is corrupt given the decision in the first corner. Decisions this year and mostly favored Mercedes.
It's usual for every car to overlap, they wanted the best chance of seeing some racing and let only the ones near the front overlap.
The problem was Mercedes couldn't gamble bringing Hamilton in because they didn't know if the race would finish with a safety car or not.

Just really, really unlucky that Latifi crashed out, but that's the risk you take going long on old tires. If Hamilton hadn't used his used pair of hards it may have been different.

In the end, the stupid curbs they put in this year cost Hamilton indirectly by damaging Latifi's car.

You say that it's just really unlucky for Lewis that Latifi crashed, and you'd be correct. But then it was also really unlucky for Max to pit and come out behind 5 lapped cars that, within the rules, couldn't be allowed to unlap themselves in a way that gave Max a chance to win.

It can't be really unlucky if it's Lewis and that's just tough luck, but if it's Max it's let's do something about that bad luck.

[Lowbankclaret]

You can suggest all you want but its subjective and you have form for being very fanciful and creative when trying to argue a point.

Its still completely different to the point/question I was making and if you are unable to understand that then fair enough but what you're saying has nothing to do with my conversation so no interest to me

Sorry, but your comparison is just wrong.
If a match was rearranged against the rules, teams would have time to complain, get it changed if it was against the rules.

Completely different to a making a decision under pressure during an event. Refs make a call under pressure as Massi did today.

Merc have employed a QC to challenge an in event decision at the event. Dangerous precedents here.

[Colburn_Claret]

Yes it's much better to sit there on worn tyres in the hope the car is finished behind the safety car, or red flagged like a previous race.

Tactics were chosen, one worked out and the other didn't.

It's quite obvious you know nothing about sport, let alone F1.
More likely just on a fishing trip, some peoples lives are so empty. You have my sympathy.

[PeterWilton]

Great season and a well deserved title to Max who took this with a slightly inferior car . Shame it had to be via a safety car, and awful luck for Lewis .The unlapping etc during a safety car is the standard practice ,so the decision was technically correct despite the incessant wailing of the Lewis fan boys ,and the understandable Teutonic rage of Toto. Let’s not forget the great Kimi Räikkönen retired today ,a pity Alpha offered him such a hideous car these last 3 seasons but an absolute legend .

It's standard practice to let all lapped cars through if it's safe to do so, and it's standard practice to not let any cars unlap themselves if it's not safe to do so. It has never been standard practice for it to only be safe for the cars between 1st and 2nd place to unlap themselves, but too dangerous to let anyone else unlap themselves.

[Lowbankclaret]

You can suggest all you want but its subjective and you have form for being very fanciful and creative when trying to argue a point.

Its still completely different to the point/question I was making and if you are unable to understand that then fair enough but what you're saying has nothing to do with my conversation so no interest to me

Plus Massi got two decisions wrong, the first lap, in every form of motor sport and every drivers view they spoke to on Sky Sports. Lewis should have given the position back.
But you not bleating about that one being wrong.

[superdimitri]

You say that it's just really unlucky for Lewis that Latifi crashed, and you'd be correct. But then it was also really unlucky for Max to pit and come out behind 5 lapped cars that, within the rules, couldn't be allowed to unlap themselves in a way that gave Max a chance to win.

It can't be really unlucky if it's Lewis and that's just tough luck, but if it's Max it's let's do something about that bad luck.

You can correct me if I'm wrong, but the rules state the whole lapped field should overtake. Not just the closest cars.
The stewards knew if they did that, there would not be enough time to let the safety car go in, and that the race would have finished behind the safety car.

Red Bull complained in the moment, after the stewards already said that there would be no lapped cars overtaking, and they changed it only to the closest few cars.

At the end of the day this may have been the decision factor that decided the championship, but the truth is its run its course through the entire year and there's plenty of reasons that could have swayed it one way or another. For example, even the decision in lap 1 turn 1.

[Lowbankclaret]

First appeal of Max overtaking under the safe car rejected.

[Milltown1882]

First appeal of Max overtaking under the safe car rejected.

FIA just tweeted about verstappen’s victory

[AlargeClaret]

It's standard practice to let all lapped cars through if it's safe to do so, and it's standard practice to not let any cars unlap themselves if it's not safe to do so. It has never been standard practice for it to only be safe for the cars between 1st and 2nd place to unlap themselves, but too dangerous to let anyone else unlap themselves.

They deemed it “unsafe” during the craning out of the Williams and “safe” once the track was clear . Balanced ? open to interpretation indeed, illegal? almost definitely not . It is what it is .

[Devils_Advocate]

Plus Massi got two decisions wrong, the first lap, in every form of motor sport and every drivers view they spoke to on Sky Sports. Lewis should have given the position back.
But you not bleating about that one being wrong.

Im not bleating about any decision and you wont find a post from me about the specific outcome of the race.

One poster said that it was better to fudge the rules if it meant having a good finish and not just a safety car and one poster said that they shouldnt challenge the decision because its not what the sport needs and not that challenging the decision is technically or morally wrong.

I was just asking them would they be quite so happy for rules to be fudged or decisions not to be challenged because it would tarnish the sport if it was Burnley at the arse end of those decisions

If you want to have a Hamilton v Verstappen argument then you've misunderstood my posts and picked the wrong person

[PeterWilton]

Plus Massi got two decisions wrong, the first lap, in every form of motor sport and every drivers view they spoke to on Sky Sports. Lewis should have given the position back.
But you not bleating about that one being wrong.

That wasn't Masi's decision. That was the stewards decision not to take any action because in their view Hamilton gave the lasting advantage back. When it comes to racing incidents like that it's not the race director that decides anything, it's the stewards. And tbf, if the drivers are an authority because they're drivers then surely the stewards are also an authority because it's literally their job to make these judgements.

[PeterWilton]

They deemed it “unsafe” during the craning out of the Williams and “safe” once the track was clear . Balanced ? open to interpretation indeed, illegal? almost definitely not . It is what it is .

Then if it was safe why do only the 5 cars between 1st and 2nd benefit from that decision? Why does the 6th car have to remain lapped and have no chance of improving their position?

and if it's not "illegal" then what else do you call something that is without precedent and goes contrary to the written rules of the sport?

[Lowbankclaret]

Im not bleating about any decision and you wont find a post from me about the specific outcome of the race.

One poster said that it was better to fudge the rules if it meant having a good finish and not just a safety car and one poster said that they shouldnt challenge the decision because its not what the sport needs and not that challenging the decision is technically or morally wrong.

I was just asking them would they be quite so happy for rules to be fudged or decisions not to be challenged because it would tarnish the sport if it was Burnley at the arse end of those decisions

If you want to have a Hamilton v Verstappen argument then you've misunderstood my posts and picked the wrong person

Rules were not fudged, difference between Football and F1, Massi has discretion within the rules to make his own in race decisions, which he did.

[Lowbankclaret]

Then if it was safe why do only the 5 cars between 1st and 2nd benefit from that decision? Why does the 6th car have to remain lapped and have no chance of improving their position?

and if it's not "illegal" then what else do you call something that is without precedent and goes contrary to the written rules of the sport?

Massi, has discretion to make decisions during the race when a safety car is employed. That will be the FIA get out of jail card.

[TheFamilyCat]

Is F1 the only sport where the technicalities are more exciting than the contest?

[Devils_Advocate]

Rules were not fudged, difference between Football and F1, Massi has discretion within the rules to make his own in race decisions, which he did.

You're missing the point. The posters position was they would rather the rules be fudged than it finish with a safety car and it was that position I was countering. For the third time you are trying to have a different discussion with me which Im not interested in so have a chat to the posters on this thread who are actually arguing the opposite point to you

[Lowbankclaret]

Looking like Max is champion.

[Colburn_Claret]

Completely wrong, but no surprise whatsoever

[Vegas Claret]

no point in having rules if you aren't going to apply them

[ClaretMov]

FIA.....HANG YOUR HEADS IN SHAME

[RVclaret]

Embarrassing

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It's quite obvious you know nothing about sport, let alone F1.
More likely just on a fishing trip, some peoples lives are so empty. You have my sympathy.

You can think whatever you like, but the fact the two mercedes appeals have been rejected would suggest most of you on here don't understand the sport.

I don't need your sympathy, I've been on the right side all along it would seem.

[Craigyp01]

Like it or not but the Race Director has the discretion to make such calls. Harsh on Lewis but once the call is made I can't see how they would then overturn their own decision, particularly after the race and the end of the Championship.

At least the race didn't end with Max ruthlessly taking out Lewis as many predicted.

[Andreshotboots]

I'm a complete novice when it comes to F1 and all the technical rules, and as I posted earlier have watched, and really enjoyed the last few races.

Without any abuse, can somebody explain to me how somebody can have a massive lead like Hamilton did today, then because of another incident it turns out to be a one lap race with both drivers next to each other?

To me that's like being 3 nil up at footy with 5 minutes left, there's a crowd emergency medical situation and the ref re starts the game at 0-0.

Probably a stupid question but why can't the cars be made to keep the same distance they were behind the car in front when the safety car came out, so when they start racing again it's as you were?

As I said, I'm a complete novice so go easy!!

[Firthy]

You can think whatever you like, but the fact the two mercedes appeals have been rejected would suggest most of you on here don't understand the sport.

I don't need your sympathy, I've been on the right side all along it would seem.

They were always going to reject the appeals. If they can bend the rules to influence the outcome of the race, they can decide that it's OK for them to do so whenever they feel like it.

[Firthy]

Like it or not but the Race Director has the discretion to make such calls. Harsh on Lewis but once the call is made I can't see how they would then overturn their own decision, particularly after the race and the end of the Championship.

At least the race didn't end with Max ruthlessly taking out Lewis as many predicted.

He didn't need to, the stewards effectively did it for him.

[superdimitri]

I'm a complete novice when it comes to F1 and all the technical rules, and as I posted earlier have watched, and really enjoyed the last few races.

Without any abuse, can somebody explain to me how somebody can have a massive lead like Hamilton did today, then because of another incident it turns out to be a one lap race with both drivers next to each other?

To me that's like being 3 nil up at footy with 5 minutes left, there's a crowd emergency medical situation and the ref re starts the game at 0-0.

Probably a stupid question but why can't the cars be made to keep the same distance they were behind the car in front when the safety car came out, so when they start racing again it's as you were?

As I said, I'm a complete novice so go easy!!

Basically the incident happened which drew out a safety car and when a safety car is out any lead you have is squashed.
Not only that, but Verstappen was so far ahead of the next car he could get a 'free' pit stop without losing any places and put on fresh soft tires.
Mercedes couldn't do the same with Hamilton so it was 30lap hard tyres vs 0 lap soft tires.

Its common practice in F1 for teams to use these 'free' pit stops when the safety car comes out. Makes you wonder if that rule should change!

[Craigyp01]

I'm a complete novice when it comes to F1 and all the technical rules, and as I posted earlier have watched, and really enjoyed the last few races.

Without any abuse, can somebody explain to me how somebody can have a massive lead like Hamilton did today, then because of another incident it turns out to be a one lap race with both drivers next to each other?

To me that's like being 3 nil up at footy with 5 minutes left, there's a crowd emergency medical situation and the ref re starts the game at 0-0.

Probably a stupid question but why can't the cars be made to keep the same distance they were behind the car in front when the safety car came out, so when they start racing again it's as you were?

As I said, I'm a complete novice so go easy!!

This is the case under a virtual safety car, but when they need to slowed more I'm not sure how they could police and enforce a set starting distance. It no doubt is a strange rules ,but so is when a red flag comes out. There will always be winners and losers and I suppose the argument is that it'll eventually even itself out over a season.

Also don't forget the leader often keeps the lead as they can influence when the race restarts. This scenario is obviously exaggerated when it is a final lap

[Herts Clarets]

At least the race didn't end with Max ruthlessly taking out Lewis as many predicted.

It would have done on turn 6 in Lap 1 until Lewis went off the track. Max knew he couldn't make that corner safely without taking Lewis out but still launched into it, regardless of the consequences.

[Stanbill05]

I'm a complete novice when it comes to F1 and all the technical rules, and as I posted earlier have watched, and really enjoyed the last few races.

Without any abuse, can somebody explain to me how somebody can have a massive lead like Hamilton did today, then because of another incident it turns out to be a one lap race with both drivers next to each other?

To me that's like being 3 nil up at footy with 5 minutes left, there's a crowd emergency medical situation and the ref re starts the game at 0-0.

Probably a stupid question but why can't the cars be made to keep the same distance they were behind the car in front when the safety car came out, so when they start racing again it's as you were?

As I said, I'm a complete novice so go easy!!

Without that jeopardy, more races would be boring. Brings strategy and tactically interest. What you say makes perfect sense but the sport would suffer if the fastest car just drove off and didn't have to worry about anything..

[Craigyp01]

It would have done on turn 6 in Lap 1 until Lewis went off the track. Max knew he couldn't make that corner safely without taking Lewis out but still launched into it, regardless of the consequences.

Not sure I agree there. Max was in front going into the corner and stayed on track. Hamilton was ordered to give back the advantage gained by going off track. Perhaps Hamilton should have backed off?

[NewClaret]

Only just watched the race after somehow attending the match and not hearing the result.

Never seen anything like that. Bitterly disappointed not to see Lewis claim an 8th title after dominating the race.

No idea what the rules say but I’ve never, ever seen race control order certain cars to be overtaken.

[Andreshotboots]

Thanks chaps. So in theory what would have stopped the Red Bull management instructing their second driver to have an "accidental prang" to ensure everybody had to slow down and the lead was wiped out?

I know there is the danger element to consider, and I think the second driver had to actually retire by then anyway, but could that in theory have happened?

[Herts Clarets]

Not sure I agree there. Max was in front going into the corner and stayed on track. Hamilton was ordered to give back the advantage gained by going off track. Perhaps Hamilton should have backed off?

Rewatch the race and compare the line he took when lunging inside Lewis with that he took when passing one of the Ferraris. The first he went right to the edge of the track before turning in leaving the car he was passing no chance of making the turn, the second he hit the apex and left sufficient space for the Ferrari to make the turn, whilst still completing the pass.

The FIA come out of this with their credibility shot to pieces.

[Stanbill05]

Without that jeopardy, more races would be boring. Brings strategy and tactically interest. What you say makes perfect sense but the sport would suffer if the fastest car just drove off and didn't have to worry about anything..

Also worth remembering, a safety car is deployed to create safety on the track, which is easier when all the cars are bunched together rather than spread all over the track.

[NewClaret]

Not sure I agree there. Max was in front going into the corner and stayed on track. Hamilton was ordered to give back the advantage gained by going off track. Perhaps Hamilton should have backed off?

Cannot believe there’s any dispute that it was another reckless lunge that forced Hamilton off the track. I like to see racing so no issues with the move but not having any nonsense that Lewis should’ve given the place back.

[Herts Clarets]

Thanks chaps. So in theory what would have stopped the Red Bull management instructing their second driver to have an "accidental prang" to ensure everybody had to slow down and the lead was wiped out?

I know there is the danger element to consider, and I think the second driver had to actually retire by then anyway, but could that in theory have happened?

Replace second driver with Latifi and that is exactly what happened......

[Lowbankclaret]

Both teams stayed to the race director and the stewards they would prefer the race to finish under green flag conditions. In trying to influence the race stewards perhaps that bit Merc on the ar se today and went the way of a red Bull.

Been a great season and with 8 laps to go I was happy Lewis would get his 8th title.

Then the Williams hits the wall and anything can happen.

Merc have launched a second appeal.

Sore losers.

Like I say, teams will need a QC at every race and challenge every ref decision.

I think BFC should start doing the same.

[Craigyp01]

The FIA come out of this with their credibility shot to pieces.

I agree, but both redbull and Mercedes need to look at themselves, Mercedes for pleading for a safety car not to be deployed and then redbull for pleading for at least one racing lap.

That said, the FIA have to stand by the decision made by the race director as he has the discretion to make that call (right or wrong). Mercedes should not be appealing again. Regroup and go again next season.

[Lowbankclaret]

Replace second driver with Latifi and that is exactly what happened......

Going back to the Benetton days, the second driver crashed on the straight, my memory cannot remember why but it was controversial at the time.

Many drivers have stopped on track to keep pole.

[Craigyp01]

Cannot believe there’s any dispute that it was another reckless lunge that forced Hamilton off the track. I like to see racing so no issues with the move but not having any nonsense that Lewis should’ve given the place back.

Who has suggested that? He was told to reduce the gap back, which he did.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

They were always going to reject the appeals. If they can bend the rules to influence the outcome of the race, they can decide that it's OK for them to do so whenever they feel like it.

Mercedes turned up with their team barrister in tow, so rejecting the appeals wasn't a guarantee

[superdimitri]

Makes you wonder if the press stories Max does have an impact.
'they treat me differently'.
Horner has been on at it all season and should have been suspended.

[NewClaret]

Mercedes to lodge an appeal.

Shame a great season has descended to this but do feel Mercedes have a case.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Makes you wonder if the press stories Max does have an impact.
'they treat me differently'.
Horner has been on at it all season and should have been suspended.

The media have been running stories claiming Max may crash intentionally, that the rules needed confirming before he did it...

[Craigyp01]

The media have been running stories claiming Max may crash intentionally, that the rules needed confirming before he did it...

I have to agree. Both parties play the hard done to line and it is becoming tiresome. Unfortunately, poor and inconsistent officiating opens the door more and more for this though as does the apparent changes in approach through the season.