Abu Dhabi F1

[RVclaret]

The only person to come out of all this with any credibility is Lewis. He accepted it gracefully, god knows what he must have been thinking in reality.

Too true. I can't believe how calm he was.

[Zlatan]

IF Lewis had pitted for softs, Max would have stayed out, because he'd gain the lead by default. Max had nothing g to lose as he was well beaten anyway.
To turn this round so that you can understand the problem. IF Lewis had gone for softs, and Max stayed out, which would then become a no-brainer, Masi would have been faced with exactly the same situation but the teams would have swapped circumstances. I believe Masi would have let the race finish under the yellow flag, as I believe, no proof, that the powers that be wanted Max to win the title.
What is certain, is if Masi had made the same call and enforced an unfair last lap sprint , Red Bull would have gone ballistic. Quite rightly. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

Yeah, let’s turn it around… so Lewis stops for new softs and Max stays out for track position. Are you saying that switching it around that Lewis wouldn’t have been able to take Max (like reverse happened)..? Thus confirming Max is the better driver…?

OK then…

Or are you suggesting that foul play is at work and the politics of the sport means that the non vehicle manufacturers (Red Bull) have political pull over the massively funded vehicle manufacturer Mercedes (who do have a massive amount of political influence)

OK then…

Max won, get over it already

[Herts Clarets]

Yeah, let’s turn it around… so Lewis stops for new softs and Max stays out for track position. Are you saying that switching it around that Lewis wouldn’t have been able to take Max (like reverse happened)..? Thus confirming Max is the better driver…?

OK then…

Or are you suggesting that foul play is at work and the politics of the sport means that the non vehicle manufacturers (Red Bull) have political pull over the massively funded vehicle manufacturer Mercedes (who do have a massive amount of political influence)

OK then…

Max won, get over it already

Max was already on relatively new softs so it wouldnt have been as clear cut as it was with brand new softs v 30+ lap old hards. Also it depends where on the track Lewis was when SC was called. If he had just passed the pits then by the time he made it round behind the SC the rest of the pack would have closed up on him and he would have lost more than track position. That of course happened to Max, but Magic Mike steps forward and invents a rule where only the cars between first and second place unlap themselves and also decides that the SC will come in at the same time, instead of the following lap as per the rules.

I fully expect a legal challenge from Mercedes on the way the rules were applied and i think FIA will find themselves in a bit of a position. You either apply the rules fully, or you don't apply them at all. Either way Lewis wins, which wasn't the outcome they wanted.

[Lowbankclaret]

IF Lewis had pitted for softs, Max would have stayed out, because he'd gain the lead by default. Max had nothing g to lose as he was well beaten anyway.
To turn this round so that you can understand the problem. IF Lewis had gone for softs, and Max stayed out, which would then become a no-brainer, Masi would have been faced with exactly the same situation but the teams would have swapped circumstances. I believe Masi would have let the race finish under the yellow flag, as I believe, no proof, that the powers that be wanted Max to win the title.
What is certain, is if Masi had made the same call and enforced an unfair last lap sprint , Red Bull would have gone ballistic. Quite rightly. Anyone who thinks otherwise is deluded.

I don’t think for a minute the powers that be wanted on driver over the other to win.
I agree also with your point on Lewis , if he had taken softs, as he kept asking about his tyres he would have lost track position. But in a last lap sprint Lewis would have won, I think.

I also think if Red Bull had left Max out on the hard tyres he was on that were half the life of Lewis’s , they would have been 1st and 2nd on track and again it would have been an interesting one lap sprint.

Also I agree Red Bull would have ballistic.

Most of my points yesterday were about the legality of what went on, what Massi did was legal. Was it a satisfactory end to the season, no not really.


Massi has had a difficult season and several decisions have been criticised by both teams, just take the race before this one when a car crashed. I thought on the first reply that the rear wheel of the car punctured the safety barrier and it was going to have to be a red flag to fix it.
Massi threw VSC and several teams who obviously thought the barrier was ok pitted for tyres, one being Norris. Hamilton was on the radio saying he thought the barrier was fine after driving past, however the punctured part needed replacing resulting in the red flag. Under red flag conditions you are allowed to fix your car and change tyres. Merc and McClaren were not happy at all. Norris post race was on social media having a right rant.
Yesterday on the first VSC, it’s clearly played where Toto shouts at Massi, don’t you dare red flag this.
The teams were putting him under massive pressure.

I am sure some things will be changed for next year about team principles pressuring Race Control.

The new cars hopefully will be able to follow closer and overtaking easier. That will play into both Lewis and Max’s hands.

[IanMcL]

I could not believe the happenings, wholly devised to get a new champion, to make a change!

Hamilton was literally robbed.

[Lowbankclaret]

I have just watched the last 10 laps again to look at it all again.

One thing that confused me yesterday was Perez being retired, didn’t take much notice yesterday apart from Perez saying he thought he could have taken a Lewis as well as he was on new softs as well. I did remember Perez questioning why he was being retired as he thought his car was ok and it was the last race and one lap left.

Having checked what the result would have been and the points scored.

If Perez had finished the race second Red Bull would have been constructors winners as well.

I just wonder if Red Bull did that on purpose, one for the conspiracy theories.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I have just watched the last 10 laps again to look at it all again.

One thing that confused me yesterday was Perez being retired, didn’t take much notice yesterday apart from Perez saying he thought he could have taken a Lewis as well as he was on new softs as well. I did remember Perez questioning why he was being retired as he thought his car was ok and it was the last race and one lap left.

Having checked what the result would have been and the points scored.

If Perez had finished the race second Red Bull would have been constructors winners as well.

I just wonder if Red Bull did that on purpose, one for the conspiracy theories.

Ha there was a woman on the radio stating Perez was under fueled on purpose so he could assist Max and Red Bull were never going to let him finish the race.

[Shaggy]

Ha there was a woman on the radio stating Perez was under fueled on purpose so he could assist Max and Red Bull were never going to let him finish the race.

It would have been rather funny if Perez and Hamilton had run into each other.

[Herts Clarets]

Ha there was a woman on the radio stating Perez was under fueled on purpose so he could assist Max and Red Bull were never going to let him finish the race.

That makes sense as Perez seemed bemused why they pulled him in. RB radio just said we need to retire the car. Means there can be no penalty for under fuelling.

[Firthy]

Why do all you Max supporters not understand that those of us complaining, are not complaining about Max winning but in the underhand way that it was done.

Massi wasn't going to let the lapped cars through until Red Bull and the slimey **** Horner objected. So he reversed his decsion and then didn't even do that properly by letting only some of the cars through and then brought the safety car in a lap early because he wanted to make a race of it, which it actually wasn't as everyone knew what the outcome would be.

Toto knew it when he said to the stewards on the radio "this isn't right" Hamilton knew it as can be seen from the following article on BBC. Which makes his reaction afterwards even more admirable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59639828

Even the other drivers are not happy with the outcome and bemused by the bent and corrupt decisions Massi took.

It is a tainted world championship and F1 is all the worse for it. I hold no grudge against Max as none of this was his doing. He would have been a worthy world champion had he won it fair and square instead of by a contrived result.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I assume you can prove Masi is bent and corrupt?
Didn't think so.

[Zlatan]

It is a tainted world championship and F1 is all the worse for it. I hold no grudge against Max as none of this was his doing. He would have been a worthy world champion had he won it fair and square instead of by a contrived result.

why is Max less worthy because the race director made an ar5e of it?

Max drove the car, finished first, won the championship - none of the other stuff is in his control, so don't judge him to be "less worthy"

[CrosspoolClarets]

Obviously Max isn’t world champion. The history books may say he is but it will always be viewed as a fraud. Not his fault, but he’ll be tarred with it forever.

I suspect the farce will be overturned in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (after Mercedes lose the appeal in Paris). I also suspect 2022 season will begin before this gets resolved. It’ll be tough for Max to recover mentally from that but Lewis had beaten him fair and square.

Even my other half, a real petrolhead addict, accepts we can’t watch the sport again after this. Totally pointless. Plans to go back to watching motor cycling.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Is Schumacher viewed as a fraud after his collision with Hill, that resulted in Schumacher winning his first title?

[RVclaret]

why is Max less worthy because the race director made an ar5e of it?

Max drove the car, finished first, won the championship - none of the other stuff is in his control, so don't judge him to be "less worthy"

It will just always be tainted as a title that should never have been. Harsh on him really. You only need to look across social media now and the amount of people replying to f1 accounts / Max saying it’s a fraud win.

[Zlatan]

Is Schumacher viewed as a fraud after his collision with Hill, that resulted in Schumacher winning his first title?

Or Senna for taking out Prost in 90...? there are those of us who have been watching F1 a long time and understand the politics, and situations like this weekend are not new.

I'm a Senna fan, a Schumacher fan, and also a Max Verstappen fan and it looks like I now have a trilogy of marmite drivers people love or hate, ah well...

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Or Senna for taking out Prost in 90...? there are those of us who have been watching F1 a long time and understand the politics, and situations like this weekend are not new.

I'm a Senna fan, a Schumacher fan, and also a Max Verstappen fan and it looks like I now have a trilogy of marmite drivers people love or hate, ah well...

I'm a Senna fan, I remember getting to see and touch his McLaren when I visited their Chertsey HQ a few years ago and I felt quite emotional.

[minnieclaret]

Yeah, let’s turn it around… so Lewis stops for new softs and Max stays out for track position. Are you saying that switching it around that Lewis wouldn’t have been able to take Max (like reverse happened)..? Thus confirming Max is the better driver…?
Or are you suggesting that foul play is at work and the politics of the sport means that the non vehicle manufacturers (Red Bull) have political pull over the massively funded vehicle manufacturer Mercedes (who do have a massive amount of political influence)

If Lewis was on new tyres and Max stayed out would they have given them the 1 lap race? We’ll never know.
Don’t for 1 second think that Red Bull are the shining light of sportsmanship.
It has appeared for the second half of the season that the FIA wanted a new champion to freshen up the sport.
Whilst the final crash that caused the end game was a genuine prang I was most upset with Giovinazzi, who should get his license removed after limping around a quarter of a lap to park it where the race had to be stopped. He actually drove past an off lane to park where he did.
The fact is that for every racing lap LH increased his lead on MV and after every incident MV was closer. I can’t get my head around people saying he deserved it.

[Lowbankclaret]

Ha there was a woman on the radio stating Perez was under fueled on purpose so he could assist Max and Red Bull were never going to let him finish the race.

I heard that too on Sky, Perez would have known that if it was true. They say that 1 lap of fuel is worth 0.1 secs a lap. When he was racing Lewis to hold him up he would have been faster than he was if he was under fuelled. In my humble opinion.

[Lowbankclaret]

Why do all you Max supporters not understand that those of us complaining, are not complaining about Max winning but in the underhand way that it was done.

Massi wasn't going to let the lapped cars through until Red Bull and the slimey **** Horner objected. So he reversed his decsion and then didn't even do that properly by letting only some of the cars through and then brought the safety car in a lap early because he wanted to make a race of it, which it actually wasn't as everyone knew what the outcome would be.

Toto knew it when he said to the stewards on the radio "this isn't right" Hamilton knew it as can be seen from the following article on BBC. Which makes his reaction afterwards even more admirable.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/59639828

Even the other drivers are not happy with the outcome and bemused by the bent and corrupt decisions Massi took.

Massi could not let the cars go through when he was asked as the track was not clear, cars unlacing themselves can go at race pace to try to get on the back of the SC train, but it’s not a requirement to allow that to happen.
When the track became clear he allowed 5 through to get a last lap in and yes I do think it was unfair.
As I have pointed out Massi is allowed to let 5 cars go through if that’s what he decides. I agree it didn’t look fair on Lewis or Merc. And yes the result was fairly predictable, Lewis could not crash into Max, he had to finish. So Max on new softs and being allowed to be as aggressive as he wanted played right into his hands.

Several titles have been tainted, but in time no one cares, it’s just says world champ 2021 is Max.

[Lowbankclaret]

Or Senna for taking out Prost in 90...? there are those of us who have been watching F1 a long time and understand the politics, and situations like this weekend are not new.

I'm a Senna fan, a Schumacher fan, and also a Max Verstappen fan and it looks like I now have a trilogy of marmite drivers people love or hate, ah well...

# me too
Senna was immense, I was a massive Mansell fan too. Watching them two going a straight at high 100’s mph banging wheels was sight to watch.
Like previous drivers Max can just get sped out of a car other drivers just cannot do.

[brunlea99]

Verstappen won the most races this year, amassed the most pole positions, led the most laps, and was on the podium more times than any other driver in F1 history.

He deserved it.

[ClaretDiver]

Verstappen won the most races this year, amassed the most pole positions, led the most laps, and was on the podium more times than any other driver in F1 history.

He deserved it.

How dare you bring stats into this lol!

[Raconteur]

Obviously Max isn’t world champion. The history books may say he is but it will always be viewed as a fraud. Not his fault, but he’ll be tarred with it forever.

I suspect the farce will be overturned in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (after Mercedes lose the appeal in Paris). I also suspect 2022 season will begin before this gets resolved. It’ll be tough for Max to recover mentally from that but Lewis had beaten him fair and square.

Even my other half, a real petrolhead addict, accepts we can’t watch the sport again after this. Totally pointless. Plans to go back to watching motor cycling.

Do you honestly believe that. I personally believe Mercedes won't take it any further this week.

[Raconteur]

To also add, some people may not agree with the decision made but Massi did not do anything illegal or break the rules

[Lowbankclaret]

If Lewis was on new tyres and Max stayed out would they have given them the 1 lap race? We’ll never know.
Don’t for 1 second think that Red Bull are the shining light of sportsmanship.
It has appeared for the second half of the season that the FIA wanted a new champion to freshen up the sport.
Whilst the final crash that caused the end game was a genuine prang I was most upset with Giovinazzi, who should get his license removed after limping around a quarter of a lap to park it where the race had to be stopped. He actually drove past an off lane to park where he did.
The fact is that for every racing lap LH increased his lead on MV and after every incident MV was closer. I can’t get my head around people saying he deserved it.

I don’t see the FIA wanting Max to win, there was a very very strong case for Lewis to be disqualified at Silverstone and no action was taken.
There have been some strange decisions all season for and against Max and for and against Lewis, these would not have happened under Whiting IMO. But I do t think they were biased towards Max.
Will agree on Giovinazzi, but he leaves F1 now to be replaced by Chinese driver Zhou.

I am also surprised there is little talk about it being Mick Schumacher who was involved in the tussle with Latifi that’s caused the SC.

It’s a real shame how it ended.

[Colburn_Claret]

I heard that too on Sky, Perez would have known that if it was true. They say that 1 lap of fuel is worth 0.1 secs a lap. When he was racing Lewis to hold him up he would have been faster than he was if he was under fuelled. In my humble opinion.

It wouldn't matter how much fuel he had if the intension was to go slow. As unsportsmanlike as Red Bull have been, I'm sure they wouldn't go that far.

[Colburn_Claret]

To also add, some people may not agree with the decision made but Massi did not do anything illegal or break the rules

No, he just reinvented them. Then fell back on a clause that said the Race Director could make any changes he wanted to. There is no precedent for what he did, and what he did could have only one possible outcome.
The race should have been decided on the track, despite his claim to see them racing ********, it was decided by his decision.

[Lowbankclaret]

It wouldn't matter how much fuel he had if the intension was to go slow. As unsportsmanlike as Red Bull have been, I'm sure they wouldn't go that far.

Of course it matters, Perez would have been quick enough round the corners and on the straights in a car with much less weight. They were saying he had 3/4’s of the fuel required.

But I get your point as well, he was backing up Lewis on purpose.

[NewClaret]

Of course it matters, Perez would have been quick enough round the corners and on the straights in a car with much less weight. They were saying he had 3/4’s of the fuel required.

But I get your point as well, he was backing up Lewis on purpose.

What’s this? Perez only had 3/4 fuel?!?!

[ian]

Will agree on Giovinazzi, but he leaves F1 now to be replaced by Chinese driver Zhou.

Bloody hell, he's only just won the UK Snooker, that guy is talented as hell

[Lowbankclaret]

What’s this? Perez only had 3/4 fuel?!?!

It’s been doing the rounds as they retired him with 2 laps to go when they could have won both titles. When told to retire he replied there was nothing wrong with the car.
RB claimed the engine was losing oil and water pressure. Many ex drivers said both dropping was very unusual leading to lots of conspiracy theories.
When the cars finish there needs to be one litre of fuel left in for testing, because he didn’t finish no need to comply. Vettel fell foul of that rule earlier in the season and if my memory is correct he lost second place at a Hungary this season as the FIA could only get 0.3 of a litre from the tank post race.

[NewClaret]

It’s been doing the rounds as they retired him with 2 laps to go when they could have won both titles. When told to retire he replied there was nothing wrong with the car.
RB claimed the engine was losing oil and water pressure. Many ex drivers said both dropping was very unusual leading to lots of conspiracy theories.
When the cars finish there needs to be one litre of fuel left in for testing, because he didn’t finish no need to comply. Vettel fell foul of that rule earlier in the season and if my memory is correct he lost second place at a Hungary this season as the FIA could only get 0.3 of a litre from the tank post race.

Wow. I have to say, I’d not been paying much attention to the constructors, so had missed that it was so close too. Surely even with a fault you’d risk continuing the race with two laps to go with a constructors championship at stake? It’s not as if those cars were going to be needed again.

I disagree with the way the race ended, principally because MM made the wrong decision, then changed it (partially) and seemed to make the rules up (quite literally) as he went along. With so much at stake, I don’t think you can start making the rules up with 4 laps to go of such an enthralling season. That said, I don’t begrudge Max his title as he’s been excellent this year and better statistically than Hamilton… but if I found out they’d cheated in that way, I’d feel differently.

Surely all the data they have on cars now would tell them fuel levels & whether there was a fault though?

[Lowbankclaret]

Wow. I have to say, I’d not been paying much attention to the constructors, so had missed that it was so close too. Surely even with a fault you’d risk continuing the race with two laps to go with a constructors championship at stake? It’s not as if those cars were going to be needed again.

I disagree with the way the race ended, principally because MM made the wrong decision, then changed it (partially) and seemed to make the rules up (quite literally) as he went along. With so much at stake, I don’t think you can start making the rules up with 4 laps to go of such an enthralling season. That said, I don’t begrudge Max his title as he’s been excellent this year and better statistically than Hamilton… but if I found out they’d cheated in that way, I’d feel differently.

Surely all the data they have on cars now would tell them fuel levels & whether there was a fault though?

Correct all the data will be out there.
Just like The Race did a full review of Lewis running into the back of Max. They did overlays and it’s all there to see and pulled apart in every level.

[Craigyp01]

Obviously Max isn’t world champion. The history books may say he is but it will always be viewed as a fraud. Not his fault, but he’ll be tarred with it forever.

I suspect the farce will be overturned in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (after Mercedes lose the appeal in Paris). I also suspect 2022 season will begin before this gets resolved. It’ll be tough for Max to recover mentally from that but Lewis had beaten him fair and square.

Even my other half, a real petrolhead addict, accepts we can’t watch the sport again after this. Totally pointless. Plans to go back to watching motor cycling.

Obviously Max IS the world champion. There is no allegation against him, why is he therefore a fraud? Very strange and extreme opinion.

My guess is that Mercedes will not pursue their intention to appeal. The race director made a call which was within his rights. Was it the right call, obviously not, but that was his decision to take. The FIA and Masi will no doubt suffer and have to be swift in their actions to prevent any such reoccurrence.

[CrosspoolClarets]

When I posted the above I was unaware of a suggestion (still argued each way by legal motorsport fans) that this other clause exists that meant Masi could do what he wants but he misused it (presumably leading to the sack as fallguy but not overturning the title).

It depends on the legal advice Mercedes are getting as to what happens now.

Some people are linking it to Senna and Schumacher. I think the latter DID get viewed as a fraud initially but then he went on to win so many it put the ‘fraud’ claim to bed. Even though it was dangerous driving though to run Hill into that wall, at least it was racing. This latest incident was the authorities contriving a way to hand the title to Max. That’s never been done before as all the ex F1 racers are saying. Everyone knew, including Masi, that a Max win was certain after that decision. That’s why I suspect we haven't heard the end of it.

OFF TOPIC - funny that the BBC are digging a real hole again with SPOTY leaving Lewis out despite a chance he’ll be champion before the event. Now they have Raducanu testing positive and can’t even receive the trophy from her hotel room unless its on Facetime with no camera crew. That event is getting less relevant by the year.

[Firthy]

I presonally think that Massi caved in under pressure from Red Bull (or is in their pocket) and made some horrendous decisions. Is it fraud? Not exactly but in making those decsisions he knew he was handing the title to Max. Is it right that someone can overrule protocols and rules and have such an effect on a world championship, no it isn't. Will it be overturned, no it won't.

By having a clause that says he can do whatever he deems appropriate, they have their asses covered which is why it won't be overturned. Hoprfully, F1 will revise their rules to make sure this never happens again. That is the best we can hope for.

[PeterWilton]

Doubt it.
However under a safety car he needs discretion to make decisions.
Like drive through the pits not on track.
Red flag.
Plus many other scenarios that could happen .
He decides in VSC, or Safety car or red flag.

What we going to say, Red Flag for every crash no matter how minor it might seem .

He already has discretion for all of those options. The problem with the option he chose is that it was against the rules, for the very obvious sporting reason that it gives an advantage to some lapped drivers but not others, for no good sporting reason.

[PeterWilton]

Obviously Max isn’t world champion. The history books may say he is but it will always be viewed as a fraud. Not his fault, but he’ll be tarred with it forever.

I suspect the farce will be overturned in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (after Mercedes lose the appeal in Paris). I also suspect 2022 season will begin before this gets resolved. It’ll be tough for Max to recover mentally from that but Lewis had beaten him fair and square.

Even my other half, a real petrolhead addict, accepts we can’t watch the sport again after this. Totally pointless. Plans to go back to watching motor cycling.

Viewing Max as a fraud or an illegitimate world champion is just ridiculous. Lewis did beat him fair and square several times in that race but the ref got involved and what happened has happened, and you can't run it back. It shouldn't be overturned. Masi should go though.

It's been two days and i'm still gutted at how such an amazing season, probably one of the sports best ever, was decided. It's completely ruined it for me like how season 8 of Game of Thrones ruined the whole show.

[Lowbankclaret]

He already has discretion for all of those options. The problem with the option he chose is that it was against the rules, for the very obvious sporting reason that it gives an advantage to some lapped drivers but not others, for no good sporting reason.

I think you have taken my post out of context, I think I was answering a question or a query from someone.
I understand he has them options and needs them.

The option he chose is not against the rule because the overriding rule is he has the right to blend or change rules at his discretion for safety reasons and to get a race underway or for it to continue. It’s a show after all.

Was he right to do what he did, that’s up for everyone to debate.

I did want Max to win this year, but it’s left me a little deflated as I didn’t feel he won it fairly in the end.

A question that will remain unanswered , is how did Mercedes suddenly get a second a lap faster mid season with no design changes, that’s still a mystery to everyone including Red Bull.

[Lowbankclaret]

I presonally think that Massi caved in under pressure from Red Bull (or is in their pocket) and made some horrendous decisions. Is it fraud? Not exactly but in making those decsisions he knew he was handing the title to Max. Is it right that someone can overrule protocols and rules and have such an effect on a world championship, no it isn't. Will it be overturned, no it won't.

By having a clause that says he can do whatever he deems appropriate, they have their asses covered which is why it won't be overturned. Hoprfully, F1 will revise their rules to make sure this never happens again. That is the best we can hope for.

Unfortunately that clause is required , so he can react appropriately to each accident and what’s needed.

[PeterWilton]

I think you have taken my post out of context, I think I was answering a question or a query from someone.
I understand he has them options and needs them.

Ah! My apologies.

[Roosterbooster]

I suspect the farce will be overturned in the Court of Arbitration for Sport (after Mercedes lose the appeal in Paris). I also suspect 2022 season will begin before this gets resolved.

I agree to a point. It was a farce, and an outside body will see it as so. I think they will decide the decision by Masi was incorrect, and inexcusable. I would imagine also that yhe FIA will have to compensate Mercedes. But I don't think they can penalise Verstappen for it.

Mercedes had a choice to make with Hamilton: stay out or pit for fresh tyres. The race would go one of 2 ways, according to the rules. Either it would finish under a safety car, or would restart with cars between Hamilton and Verstappen. In both eventualities, staying out is the only sensible strategy. If they had pitted Hamilton, Verstappen would have stayed out, and been ahead of Hamilton.

Red Bull also had the same choice. But their choice was risk free. Stay out - either they are in the same position, or leading with Hamilton having pitted. Pit - fresh tyres, and still behind Hamilton.
As Hamilton didn't pit, they then were given the easiest of options.

This is then when the farce comes in. The rules weren't followed. Masi got rid of the 2 rule-abiding possibilities - the same possibilities that had decided Mercedes strategy. It wasn't bad luck. It was a deliberate decision. Mercedes were punished for understanding the rules and basing their strategy on them. Red Bull were rewarded for being in a losing position. It would be like only allowing Man City, Chelsea or Liverpool to play with 6 players after Xmas because they were so far ahead and they wanted a more exciting title race. Its entirely farcical.

Let them race???? Damn right

But let the racing be fair. This wasn't fair. This was a deliberate decision to avoid a close championship finishing under a safety car. Masi might have used a clause to allow himself ultimate authority. But he won't be able to give a good reason for not following the rules. And hence I cannot see the end of the appeals until this is realised in court.

[Lowbankclaret]

I agree to a point. It was a farce, and an outside body will see it as so. I think they will decide the decision by Masi was incorrect, and inexcusable. I would imagine also that yhe FIA will have to compensate Mercedes. But I don't think they can penalise Verstappen for it.

Mercedes had a choice to make with Hamilton: stay out or pit for fresh tyres. The race would go one of 2 ways, according to the rules. Either it would finish under a safety car, or would restart with cars between Hamilton and Verstappen. In both eventualities, staying out is the only sensible strategy. If they had pitted Hamilton, Verstappen would have stayed out, and been ahead of Hamilton.

Red Bull also had the same choice. But their choice was risk free. Stay out - either they are in the same position, or leading with Hamilton having pitted. Pit - fresh tyres, and still behind Hamilton.
As Hamilton didn't pit, they then were given the easiest of options.

This is then when the farce comes in. The rules weren't followed. Masi got rid of the 2 rule-abiding possibilities - the same possibilities that had decided Mercedes strategy. It wasn't bad luck. It was a deliberate decision. Mercedes were punished for understanding the rules and basing their strategy on them. Red Bull were rewarded for being in a losing position. It would be like only allowing Man City, Chelsea or Liverpool to play with 6 players after Xmas because they were so far ahead and they wanted a more exciting title race. Its entirely farcical.

Let them race???? Damn right

But let the racing be fair. This wasn't fair. This was a deliberate decision to avoid a close championship finishing under a safety car. Masi might have used a clause to allow himself ultimate authority. But he won't be able to give a good reason for not following the rules. And hence I cannot see the end of the appeals until this is realised in court.

The problem at the end of the day with taking the FIA to court could be two fold.
Many races could end up in court in future where decisions are contested which they are in most races.

The FIA might just scrutinise all its decisions against Merc closer in future and instead of letting some things slide a little like they do now and start to penalise Merc harder in future.

[Roosterbooster]

The problem at the end of the day with taking the FIA to court could be two fold.
Many races could end up in court in future where decisions are contested which they are in most races.

The FIA might just scrutinise all its decisions against Merc closer in future and instead of letting some things slide a little like they do now and start to penalise Merc harder in future.

Yeah I agree that's a problem. But I'm not saying the race result should be decided by an outside court, just the legality of Masi's decision. I think the race result has to be decided by the stewards at the race. Just like football matches should be refereed by the ref. But if an organisation acts improperly, then they must be geld accountable.

As for the Mercedes specific issue, I'd be amazed if other teams aren't also entirely peed off with the FIA this year and would back the action unofficially. If Mercedes were then to be targeted for seeking fair justice, you'd expect other teams to revolt

[RVclaret]

I agree to a point. It was a farce, and an outside body will see it as so. I think they will decide the decision by Masi was incorrect, and inexcusable. I would imagine also that yhe FIA will have to compensate Mercedes. But I don't think they can penalise Verstappen for it.

Mercedes had a choice to make with Hamilton: stay out or pit for fresh tyres. The race would go one of 2 ways, according to the rules. Either it would finish under a safety car, or would restart with cars between Hamilton and Verstappen. In both eventualities, staying out is the only sensible strategy. If they had pitted Hamilton, Verstappen would have stayed out, and been ahead of Hamilton.

Red Bull also had the same choice. But their choice was risk free. Stay out - either they are in the same position, or leading with Hamilton having pitted. Pit - fresh tyres, and still behind Hamilton.
As Hamilton didn't pit, they then were given the easiest of options.

This is then when the farce comes in. The rules weren't followed. Masi got rid of the 2 rule-abiding possibilities - the same possibilities that had decided Mercedes strategy. It wasn't bad luck. It was a deliberate decision. Mercedes were punished for understanding the rules and basing their strategy on them. Red Bull were rewarded for being in a losing position. It would be like only allowing Man City, Chelsea or Liverpool to play with 6 players after Xmas because they were so far ahead and they wanted a more exciting title race. Its entirely farcical.

Let them race???? Damn right

But let the racing be fair. This wasn't fair. This was a deliberate decision to avoid a close championship finishing under a safety car. Masi might have used a clause to allow himself ultimate authority. But he won't be able to give a good reason for not following the rules. And hence I cannot see the end of the appeals until this is realised in court.

Summed up perfectly, thank you.

[ian]

Mercedes have “good legal basis” for appeal over Abu Dhabi GP – lawyer
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

[Lowbankclaret]

Mercedes have “good legal basis” for appeal over Abu Dhabi GP – lawyer
https://www.racefans.net/2021/12/14/mer ... gp-lawyer/

Don’t disagree.
But Red Bull could taken the copse issue to court, called loads of ex drivers who would have said Lewis knew what he doing and it was dangerous driving.
Every race could be disputed in court.
As could the VAR decision not to send off the defender who dragged Wood down.

Where do we stop with this.

[Heathclaret]

With everything that is wrong in the world and people are worried about this.

Move on. It’s not important.

[RammyClaret61]

I agree to a point. It was a farce, and an outside body will see it as so. I think they will decide the decision by Masi was incorrect, and inexcusable. I would imagine also that yhe FIA will have to compensate Mercedes. But I don't think they can penalise Verstappen for it.

Mercedes had a choice to make with Hamilton: stay out or pit for fresh tyres. The race would go one of 2 ways, according to the rules. Either it would finish under a safety car, or would restart with cars between Hamilton and Verstappen. In both eventualities, staying out is the only sensible strategy. If they had pitted Hamilton, Verstappen would have stayed out, and been ahead of Hamilton.

Red Bull also had the same choice. But their choice was risk free. Stay out - either they are in the same position, or leading with Hamilton having pitted. Pit - fresh tyres, and still behind Hamilton.
As Hamilton didn't pit, they then were given the easiest of options.

This is then when the farce comes in. The rules weren't followed. Masi got rid of the 2 rule-abiding possibilities - the same possibilities that had decided Mercedes strategy. It wasn't bad luck. It was a deliberate decision. Mercedes were punished for understanding the rules and basing their strategy on them. Red Bull were rewarded for being in a losing position. It would be like only allowing Man City, Chelsea or Liverpool to play with 6 players after Xmas because they were so far ahead and they wanted a more exciting title race. Its entirely farcical.

Let them race???? Damn right

But let the racing be fair. This wasn't fair. This was a deliberate decision to avoid a close championship finishing under a safety car. Masi might have used a clause to allow himself ultimate authority. But he won't be able to give a good reason for not following the rules. And hence I cannot see the end of the appeals until this is realised in court.

Summed up perfectly. Mercedes strategy was done to the rules. Red Bull “gambled”, Horner whinged, Masi played ball.