January 2022 Burnley Transfer Window Rumours - Links - Discussion

[warksclaret]

Just wondering how on earth we will refresh the squad in June with 10 OOC players coming up, when this window realised one new transfer and that a replacement

We are rather unique with lots of elderly players in their 30's not keen to leave (Bardsley, Barnes,Pieters,Rodriguez, Cork, JBG, Lowton, Stephens, Westwood) presumably all praying for a contract extension, yet from comments on this board a reason for our failure in the transfer market is that targets don't want to join our club

[Lancasterclaret]

You are wondering how we refresh the squad when 10 of them are out of contract?

Are you sure that is what you wanted to say?

[boatshed bill]

Got immense respect for you Lancaster and we've agreed down the years more often than not, but we diverge a bit here.

At it's simplest, if you buy a Premier League football club on a financial model that threatens its sustainability in the event of relegation and no swift return, then the least you can do is ensure the recruitment to give your gamble a chance of working.

We've had 3 windows of ALK now, and they've delivered 4 players of any note across those, and essentially those have been funded by the sales of Gibson and Wood. We ended the summer with a squad that was at least one quality player short (a midfielder, or a winger to allow McNeil to move inside) on the promise that we'd be able to fix it in the winter window. Well, that window has been and gone, and we haven't. We haven't even brought in any "ones for the future" who might be a replacement for McNeil, or Westwood, or Cork or Mee or Pope in 6, 12 or 18 months time.

It may not be entirely due to ALK's lack of capital. It may be that Dyche remains too fixated on a particular type of player, and isn't willing to look at players who he doesn't feel will deliver in the immediacy. But even if that's true, it's ultimately for ALK to set a direction and for the manager to deliver it. It may be true that they were terribly unlucky with Orsic - but that was one signing, the bare minimum beyond replacing Wood that was required, and they essentially got burned for aiming for the bare minimum at the last minute. At some point, the "hard luck" stories have to be met with a dose of reality.

This team is not good enough to get 40 points, and I disagree with your assessment that it has enough to survive. It lacks technical ability and pace, and you can probably get away without one, but not both. it has corroded over the last 3-4 years and will go down barring an astonishing underperformance from Newcastle or a capitulation of grand proportions by someone like Brentford (who managed to be creative in the market themselves).

The last regime ultimately allowed investment to stagnate for 2-3 years, and the new owners knew that when they came in. But they haven't diffused the ticking time bomb yet - they've just allowed it to tick louder. And given their repeated failures to explain their business model properly, I think we've now reached the point where questions need to be asked quite loudly. Where exactly are we headed, and what is the strategy?

Good stuff here. But why do people want McNeil inside? He's the best winger we've had since Leighton James, and I haven't seen anything that suggests he'd be better in another role.

[NewClaret]

Good stuff here. But why do people want McNeil inside? He's the best winger we've had since Leighton James, and I haven't seen anything that suggests he'd be better in another role.

This. Very much needed out wide, forming that partnership with Charlie, whipping crosses in.

[Stayingup]

Fortunately not all of us are in despair. Yes, I like most, expected another signing and so did Mr Pace and he obviously didn't know the Croats would change direction (bloody foreigners!!!). We are in a difficult situation but so are others, even Nescastle who have splashed the cash. But we have a new CF and to all intents and purposes a new right Back (hes hardly played yet). We have Maxwel back and injured players returning. In reality we are not a good proposition as we are bottom of the league. Signing anyone on a 2/3 year deal would have meant over complicated contracts in case of relegation. We did well to get Weghorst in given our position. A lot of players are out of contract at the end of the season. That was known and Dyche apparently had rows with the outgoing owners about it. Nothing was done, except sign the like of an over the hill midfield player for a million. Not Dyches fault not Paces. If we go down then we really can re-new the team. If we stay up the scouting overseas seems to a active now and hopefully work to our advantage.

[claretspice]

Good stuff here. But why do people want McNeil inside? He's the best winger we've had since Leighton James, and I haven't seen anything that suggests he'd be better in another role.

Because my personal opinion is that he's better suited to a central role. What makes him a good player out wide is that he's a very good footballer, who works hard. Those are transferable skills, he's said himself he sees himself playing centrally eventually, and as he's the best passer of a football we've got I'd like to see him where he can have the greatest influence on the game.

But this is a distraction from the key issue, which is that whether McNeil plays out wide or in the middle, we needed one more player as a minimum to fill the corresponding gap in the other position. And despite lots of huff and puff and fine words, we haven't got it, and our position is ever more precarious as as result.

[claretspice]

Good stuff here. But why do people want McNeil inside? He's the best winger we've had since Leighton James, and I haven't seen anything that suggests he'd be better in another role.

Because my personal opinion is that he's better suited to a central role. What makes him a good player out wide is that he's a very good footballer, who works hard. Those are transferable skills, he's said himself he sees himself playing centrally eventually, and as he's the best passer of a football we've got I'd like to see him where he can have the greatest influence on the game.

But this is a distraction from the key issue, which is that whether McNeil plays out wide or in the middle, we needed one more player as a minimum to fill the corresponding gap in the other position. And despite lots of huff and puff and fine words, we haven't got it, and our position is ever more precarious as as result.

[boatshed bill]

Because my personal opinion is that he's better suited to a central role. What makes him a good player out wide is that he's a very good footballer, who works hard. Those are transferable skills, he's said himself he sees himself playing centrally eventually, and as he's the best passer of a football we've got I'd like to see him where he can have the greatest influence on the game.

But this is a distraction from the key issue, which is that whether McNeil plays out wide or in the middle, we needed one more player as a minimum to fill the corresponding gap in the other position. And despite lots of huff and puff and fine words, we haven't got it, and our position is ever more precarious as as result.

TBF we have Cornet who could facilitate what you are advocating.
Right winger would have been good, and a top centre-midfielder. Probably beyond budget.

[Lancasterclaret]

TBF we have Cornet who could facilitate what you are advocating.
Right winger would have been good, and a top centre-midfielder. Probably beyond budget.

We do have players who can do so McNeil can come inside

And we were at our most successful in the prem with Hendrick at No 10 (Jeff Hendrick!)

I really am surprised we haven't tried this yet, especially when you look at how we've really struggled in a 4-4-2 for most of the season

[boatshed bill]

We do have players who can do so McNeil can come inside

And we were at our most successful in the prem with Hendrick at No 10 (Jeff Hendrick!)

I really am surprised we haven't tried this yet, especially when you look at how we've really struggled in a 4-4-2 for most of the season

It's amazing how few appreciated Hendrick at that time.

[claretspice]

TBF we have Cornet who could facilitate what you are advocating.
Right winger would have been good, and a top centre-midfielder. Probably beyond budget.

Disagree. Cornet's a fantastic talent but he's a different sort of player. He's a better finisher than McNeil and he's quicker than McNeil, but he's not got the sort of range of passing that McNeil possesses, and he's not as good at retaining the ball in tight spaces under intense pressure.

[boatshed bill]

Disagree. Cornet's a fantastic talent but he's a different sort of player. He's a better finisher than McNeil and he's quicker than McNeil, but he's not got the sort of range of passing that McNeil possesses, and he's not as good at retaining the ball in tight spaces under intense pressure.

Cornet as the winger to let McNeil inside?

[NewClaret]

It's amazing how few appreciated Hendrick at that time.

I’d have taken him back yesterday to play that role.

[claretspice]

Cornet as the winger to let McNeil inside?

Yes. Put it this way - I'd rather have McNeil feeding passes into Cornet in the final third or a threatening position, than the other way round.

[Spijed]

Yes. Put it this way - I'd rather have McNeil feeding passes into Cornet in the final third or a threatening position, than the other way round.

That worked well against Brentford, a game that was far easier than many expected.

[RVclaret]

Yes. Put it this way - I'd rather have McNeil feeding passes into Cornet in the final third or a threatening position, than the other way round.

Agree with this. For me, Cornet actually looks more involved and threatening running with the ball and with play ahead of him - he has really clever movement and the pace to execute. We would also see him assisting more (haven’t seen this part of his game yet, but some pockets of play at Leicester for 45 minutes were promising).

McNeil being central adds 1. Another hard worker to the middle of the pitch 2. Provides the midfield two with a closer passing option so we retain the ball better 3. Gets our most technical player involved more 4. Dwight excels at receiving the ball in tight spaces and beating a man with clever dribbling, however out wide he’s often forced onto his left foot by the defender now (this is why he’s come inside more this season) and has nowhere to go.

It’s a shame that this hasn’t been at least tried yet as I feel it improves us quite significantly.

[boatshed bill]

Yes. Put it this way - I'd rather have McNeil feeding passes into Cornet in the final third or a threatening position, than the other way round.

Which I would never have suggested.
I was trying to agree with you, though Cornet appeared to have defensive weaknesses wide in a 4-4-2.

[dsr]

Lets see if we have enough back up when we start playing 3 games in 7 days for several weeks

Apart from next Tuesday, we don't have any period on our schedule where there will even be 2 games in 7 days. They're hardly going to rearrange two games for the same midweek. and if by some chance we get a TV game and a midweek game so we do have a Sunday-Wednesday-Saturday, it can't even theoretically be followed by another 3 in 7 days; more likely we would get a full week off.

[Conroy92]

You are wondering how we refresh the squad when 10 of them are out of contract?

Are you sure that is what you wanted to say?

I think, like most of the rest of us, he's wondering how on earth we will recruit ten new players. We won't/can't and we'll be forced to extend some of the guff we want to get rid of.
Expect all of Cork ,Stephens and Barnes to be here next year.

[Lancasterclaret]

I think, like most of the rest of us, he's wondering how on earth we will recruit ten new players. We won't/can't and we'll be forced to extend some of the guff we want to get rid of.
Expect all of Cork ,Stephens and Barnes to be here next year.

The point is that if you need to refresh the squad, then when 10 first teamers are out of contract is the time to do it

And there is a lot of wages saved there, and there are a lot of players out of contract at other clubs

Refreshing the squad won't be the problem, getting a brand new team to gel will be

[quoonbeatz]

I’m there Saturday Lancaster so maybe I will. Pace will most likely be hiding in case we lose though

I doubt it. I've seen him walking around talking to people at pretty much every home game this season. You can accuse him to his face of 'pocketing the money'.

[claretspice]

Which I would never have suggested.
I was trying to agree with you, though Cornet appeared to have defensive weaknesses wide in a 4-4-2.

Re-reading, I may have mis-understood your original comparison between McNeil and Cornet as advocating Cornet for a deeper central role - apologies if so.

You may be right about Cornet's defending (although I don't think he's bad in that regard instinctively, and he's now had nearly 6 months to adapt to our system) and certainly I suspect it'd be very un-Dyche like to line up with McNeil in the centre of midfield and Cornet wide in a 4-4-2. Personally I do think McNeil could play in a central 2 if flanked by diligent wide players, but in that system I'm sure you're right that Cornet would be in a front 2 (in which case the point about the quality of service would still stand), and I do think it's most likely McNeil would be the third central midfielder and Cornet playing from wide, which would perhaps mitigate any doubts about his defending.

[Jimscho]

Just wondering how on earth we will refresh the squad in June with 10 OOC players coming up, when this window realised one new transfer and that a replacement

We are rather unique with lots of elderly players in their 30's not keen to leave (Bardsley, Barnes,Pieters,Rodriguez, Cork, JBG, Lowton, Stephens, Westwood) presumably all praying for a contract extension, yet from comments on this board a reason for our failure in the transfer market is that targets don't want to join our club

If we are still in the Prem we will need 25 first team available players.Only 14 can play every week.If you replace the 10 OOC players with 10 who will expect to play every week then you wil have 11 disgruntled players.Some of the OOC players will probably get new deals as they will be needed for BACKUp so we wont need 10 new players.Some of you might not like that and expect to have 25 first teamers but that wont work.

[Papabendi]

Re-reading, I may have mis-understood your original comparison between McNeil and Cornet as advocating Cornet for a deeper central role - apologies if so.

You may be right about Cornet's defending (although I don't think he's bad in that regard instinctively, and he's now had nearly 6 months to adapt to our system) and certainly I suspect it'd be very un-Dyche like to line up with McNeil in the centre of midfield and Cornet wide in a 4-4-2. Personally I do think McNeil could play in a central 2 if flanked by diligent wide players, but in that system I'm sure you're right that Cornet would be in a front 2 (in which case the point about the quality of service would still stand), and I do think it's most likely McNeil would be the third central midfielder and Cornet playing from wide, which would perhaps mitigate any doubts about his defending.

I wouldn't contemplate McNeil in a midfield 2, in a 442. He can't tackle and he doesn't have the engine. As an advanced 10 the way Hendrick used to operate or as part of a 3 with licence to get forward, maybe.

[RVclaret]

For what it’s worth, Orsic just signed a new long term deal with Dinamo.

[Pearcey]

For what it’s worth, Orsic just signed a new long term deal with Dinamo.

That rules out a summer move and explains the change of heart.

[Papabendi]

Tells us what we needed to know about that one, then.

[Murger]

He obviously enjoys being a big fish in a small pond.

[Pearcey]

Nothing the club can do in these situations. It’s just bloody frustrating when it happens.

[warksclaret]

If we are still in the Prem we will need 25 first team available players.Only 14 can play every week.If you replace the 10 OOC players with 10 who will expect to play every week then you wil have 11 disgruntled players.Some of the OOC players will probably get new deals as they will be needed for BACKUp so we wont need 10 new players.Some of you might not like that and expect to have 25 first teamers but that wont work.

Take your point, but I just hope we are not too charitable , as 5 or 6 simply need to go. No criticism of these 5 or 6 , but they were brought in to do a job anything between 4-6 years ago, which they have done, but they have aged, slowed down and are no longer able to compete in the first team

[Spijed]

For what it’s worth, Orsic just signed a new long term deal with Dinamo.

As we were his last ever chance of playing in the Prem (and he'll know that chance has now gone forever) it's probably a no brainer for him.

[RVclaret]

As we were his last ever chance of playing in the Prem (and he'll know that chance has now gone forever) it's probably a no brainer for him.

Here is what he has had to say:

“I have to look back at Burnley’s offer. I cannot hide nor do I want to deny my desire to move to an English club,” he told the club's website.

“The Premier League is the top league competition in the world. I was willing to do my best to try to help Burnley play in the Premier League next year as well.

Anyone who has played football or is an active fan and follower of football understands what I am talking about.

“However, putting the icing on the cake of my career with the club's desire to stay and the decision I made, I understood the message to me and the fans of our club. Let's go get the title!

“I will do my best until the last second of my stay at the club, as I have been giving so far. Football and my career are an absolute example that anything is possible in football, dreams come true if you do your best, regardless of obstacles.”

[claretspice]

I wouldn't contemplate McNeil in a midfield 2, in a 442. He can't tackle and he doesn't have the engine. As an advanced 10 the way Hendrick used to operate or as part of a 3 with licence to get forward, maybe.

We know you can't find a positive word to say about the lad, but you want to go and check his tackling and distance coverage stats and they may correct your misapprehension. But of course he's a forward thinking player so you may well be correct that the advanced of a 3 is the better option for him.

[beddie]

I’d have taken him back yesterday to play that role.

I’d no idea he’d gone to QPR on loan, I thought SD might have tried to lure him back. I know a lot won’t agree but I think he’s been missed.

[NewClaret]

Here is what he has had to say:

“I have to look back at Burnley’s offer. I cannot hide nor do I want to deny my desire to move to an English club,” he told the club's website.

“The Premier League is the top league competition in the world. I was willing to do my best to try to help Burnley play in the Premier League next year as well.

Anyone who has played football or is an active fan and follower of football understands what I am talking about.

“However, putting the icing on the cake of my career with the club's desire to stay and the decision I made, I understood the message to me and the fans of our club. Let's go get the title!

“I will do my best until the last second of my stay at the club, as I have been giving so far. Football and my career are an absolute example that anything is possible in football, dreams come true if you do your best, regardless of obstacles.”

Nice words from him really. What do you read in to it though? The club and fans reaction to keep him changed his mind?

The last second of my stay at the club element is interesting? Is he saying he’s still open to a move after winning the title?

[NewClaret]

Apparently tried to sign Gabriel Silva of Palmeiras but couldn’t get it done on time:

https://mobile.twitter.com/venecasagran ... 8387270660

Top scorer in U20 league last season apparently. Vid from a few years back:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Y0b68pH7Q7o

Loan with a buy option. Perhaps one we’ll revisit in summer.

[JR1882]

Nothing the club can do in these situations. It’s just bloody frustrating when it happens.

There isn’t, but we should have a second, third and 4th choice who we then go to, so either we didn’t have that set up and ready to go, or were unwilling to buy anyone.

This is why clubs who have their s*!t together do their business early, so that there’s time to move around. Deadline day is there for scrambling your 3rd target across the line at the last minute so that your squad has the numbers and quality it needs.

The recruitment is just all over the shop, no strategy whatsoever. Why is Pace flying around trying to do deals at the end of the window anyway? That’s not the owners Job, employ someone who knows that inside out. Villa have Purslow, Brighton have Dan Ashworth for instance, experienced operators heading up departments that handle this. Either we don’t have the necessary infrastructure in place behind the scenes, or they ain’t good enough at doing what they do.

The game has moved on both on and off the field in the last few years and we are miles behind on both, the clubs that are doing well, are those setup well in recruitment, strategy, have a direction and technical expertise etc - Villa, Brighton, Brentford, Wolves. Those not doing well are those that really don’t have a clue - Everton, Burnley, Newcastle until recently. It’s not a coincidence that.

It’s criminal what’s happened here, there are many players in the Championship who would improve our first 11 it’s that bad, to just do no business whatsoever is just negligent and akin to throwing in the towel. And replacing your main striker doesn’t count as adding to the squad, especially not when he cost half the price, we don’t get to sit on that high ground I’m afraid.

[warksclaret]

There isn’t, but we should have a second, third and 4th choice who we then go to, so either we didn’t have that set up and ready to go, or were unwilling to buy anyone.

This is why clubs who have their s*!t together do their business early, so that there’s time to move around. Deadline day is there for scrambling your 3rd target across the line at the last minute so that your squad has the numbers and quality it needs.

The recruitment is just all over the shop, no strategy whatsoever. Why is Pace flying around trying to do deals at the end of the window anyway? That’s not the owners Job, employ someone who knows that inside out. Villa have Purslow, Brighton have Dan Ashworth for instance, experienced operators heading up departments that handle this. Either we don’t have the necessary infrastructure in place behind the scenes, or they ain’t good enough at doing what they do.

The game has moved on both on and off the field in the last few years and we are miles behind on both, the clubs that are doing well, are those setup well in recruitment, strategy, have a direction and technical expertise etc - Villa, Brighton, Brentford, Wolves. Those not doing well are those that really don’t have a clue - Everton, Burnley, Newcastle until recently. It’s not a coincidence that.

It’s criminal what’s happened here, there are many players in the Championship who would improve our first 11 it’s that bad, to just do no business whatsoever is just negligent and akin to throwing in the towel. And replacing your main striker doesn’t count as adding to the squad, especially not when he cost half the price, we don’t get to sit on that high ground I’m afraid.

Great post JR

[Steddyman]

Nice words from him really. What do you read in to it though? The club and fans reaction to keep him changed his mind?

The last second of my stay at the club element is interesting? Is he saying he’s still open to a move after winning the title?

Translation: I really wanted to go and play for Burnley, but the fans told me that might not be in the best interests of my families safety.

[Burnley Ace]

Perhaps there are some players who don’t want to move to a club when they see they are only being considered because 2 or 3 other players have turned down an offer. Doesn’t really fit in with a career progression when you think one of those players might be available in the Summer.

It now appears that Ramsey isn’t even fit enough for the SPL, no surprise he turned Prem clubs down!

[quoonbeatz]

There isn’t, but we should have a second, third and 4th choice who we then go to, so either we didn’t have that set up and ready to go, or were unwilling to buy anyone.

Or the other fairly obvious scenario you've neglected to mention.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Orsic will have been promised a pay rise and a new contract but for both financial and career reasons He sounds desperate to have moved to us which is what we said at the time. Got to feel for the guy. It’s football not Gomorrah. Quite possible we could revisit in the summer but only if we stay up.

[CaptainKirk]

Have we signed anyone yet?

[Taffy on the wing]

Wonder if Pace is going to hide away or come out an address his failures this window.

I wish you would hide away for a bit.

[boatshed bill]

Re-reading, I may have mis-understood your original comparison between McNeil and Cornet as advocating Cornet for a deeper central role - apologies if so.

You may be right about Cornet's defending (although I don't think he's bad in that regard instinctively, and he's now had nearly 6 months to adapt to our system) and certainly I suspect it'd be very un-Dyche like to line up with McNeil in the centre of midfield and Cornet wide in a 4-4-2. Personally I do think McNeil could play in a central 2 if flanked by diligent wide players, but in that system I'm sure you're right that Cornet would be in a front 2 (in which case the point about the quality of service would still stand), and I do think it's most likely McNeil would be the third central midfielder and Cornet playing from wide, which would perhaps mitigate any doubts about his defending.

No problem, Spice, I thought you had misunderstood.
I think Cornet, like what I would imagine is the majority of wide players, would be better suited to a 5 (wing-back in his case).
how many teams line up 4-4-2 these days?

[Dark Cloud]

In Claretspice's excellent post above our midfield is referenced and that to me is where our problems lie, have done for some time and where the bomb is not only ticking, but it has actually started to go off. Our midfield has been brilliant over the past 4/5 years. They harry, they press, they run miles and miles, they tackle, they spoil, they break up, they get box to box, they get in your face (or they USED to) and they (occasionally) create summut. All that requires exceptional fitness and stamina and work rate. All of Westwood, Cork, Brownhill, JBG, Stephens and Lennon simply cannot do that week in week out at that level anymore. It's been so obvious for so long and yes, never mind Mike Garlick and what he did or didn't do, ALK have now had 3 windows at this and the same tired old legs are still plugging the gaps in our midfield. And to coin a well worn phrase "that's why you're going down". (Sadly )

[CoolClaret]

Because my personal opinion is that he's better suited to a central role. What makes him a good player out wide is that he's a very good footballer, who works hard. Those are transferable skills, he's said himself he sees himself playing centrally eventually, and as he's the best passer of a football we've got I'd like to see him where he can have the greatest influence on the game.

But this is a distraction from the key issue, which is that whether McNeil plays out wide or in the middle, we needed one more player as a minimum to fill the corresponding gap in the other position. And despite lots of huff and puff and fine words, we haven't got it, and our position is ever more precarious as as result.

He doesn’t have a right foot -

You can’t be an elite attacking midfielder without master proficiency with both feet

[RVclaret]

He doesn’t have a right foot -

You can’t be an elite attacking midfielder without master proficiency with both feet

Rubbish. Mesut Ozil was world class for quite some time and only ever used his left foot. That’s just one example I can think of off the top of my head.

[claretspice]

He doesn’t have a right foot -

You can’t be an elite attacking midfielder without master proficiency with both feet

There are loads of players who contradict that. Di Maria, Coutinho and Ozil for 3. Maradona might be surprised by your assessment too, as might Beckham.

[claretspice]

In Claretspice's excellent post above our midfield is referenced and that to me is where our problems lie, have done for some time and where the bomb is not only ticking, but it has actually started to go off. Our midfield has been brilliant over the past 4/5 years. They harry, they press, they run miles and miles, they tackle, they spoil, they break up, they get box to box, they get in your face (or they USED to) and they (occasionally) create summut. All that requires exceptional fitness and stamina and work rate. All of Westwood, Cork, Brownhill, JBG, Stephens and Lennon simply cannot do that week in week out at that level anymore. It's been so obvious for so long and yes, never mind Mike Garlick and what he did or didn't do, ALK have now had 3 windows at this and the same tired old legs are still plugging the gaps in our midfield. And to coin a well worn phrase "that's why you're going down". (Sadly )

I agree with all that, although Brownhill and Westwood are pretty good physically in doing the things you've said. But what they don't do is, ironically enough given our reputation, what I always thought was the secret to the success of Dyche's teams - hold the ball and slow the game down to provide an outlet under pressure. There is a thread through Dyche's Burnley teams that he always had at least one midfielder who could get the ball under pressure, hold it, and play an easy (often square) pass. Dave Jones was the first, then there was Barton, then there was Defour, and then there was Cork. The most effective of those teams at their level combined 2 such players (Jones/Barton, Defour/Cork) but at the very least one (or both) was paired one with a more dynamic player (Marney, Westwood, Hendrick). It often wasn't much appreciated, but it was the boring stuff that got us out of trouble and helped us build structured attacks.

Without that skill set, we lose our composure too quickly, the ball comes back at us when we're under pressure and we don't manipulate opponents when we do push them back in order to capitalise on our momentum. The only one who bucks that trend is McNeil. And when one of Westwood or Brownhill is unavailable, the decline of Cork means that whilst we might keep the ball a bit better, as you say, we can't do the ugly stuff that's always been our hall mark.