The most concerning financial journo article yet!

[claretonthecoast1882]

Well we will soon see won’t we. Let’s hope they have a successful plan

That is the one of the issues, you don't hope they are successful.

If we were winning all the time, the owners doing amazing and signing any player we wanted you would have nothing to post about

[Newcastleclaret93]

That is the one of the issues, you don't hope they are successful.

If we were winning all the time, the owners doing amazing and signing any player we wanted you would have nothing to post about

I have literally just said let’s hope they have a successful plan. You have managed to twist that into saying the complete opposite

[Jakubclaret]

There's Watford. Heavily in debt, 5 players out of contract (we can call that half a team I reckon) and facing relegation.

I've not seen any interviews with Gino Pozzo recently.

Watford just change managers I’m not bothered about Watford, Simon Jordan & Tariq the journalist want to speak to pace not pozzo, if pozzo was refusing to speak to Jordan & tariq then fair enough but he isn’t.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Watford just change managers I’m not bothered about Watford, Simon Jordan & Tariq the journalist want to speak to pace not pozzo, if pozzo was refusing to speak to Jordan & tariq then fair enough but he isn’t.

[Vegas Claret]

Not sure why the owner of a business has to come out and talk about finances to anyone.

[ClaretPete001]

Not sure why the owner of a business has to come out and talk about finances to anyone.

As I've said before this story is likely to be the narrative of the Burnley relegation battle. Journalists will just steal the copy and replicate it if there is no rebuttal. Any CEO worth their salt would now be developing a media strategy - this will get very damaging if it continues.

Burnley fans can bury their heads in the sand but how do you think this looks to potential investors when the largest publications in the mainstream media is suggesting the club is a high investment risk.

[ClaretPete001]

(...) that should probably say "print mainstream media".

[Vegas Claret]

As I've said before this story is likely to be the narrative of the Burnley relegation battle. Journalists will just steal the copy and replicate it if there is no rebuttal. Any CEO worth their salt would now be developing a media strategy - this will get very damaging if it continues.

Burnley fans can bury their heads in the sand but how do you think this looks to potential investors when the largest publications in the mainstream media is suggesting the club is a high investment risk.

if I was an investor I sure as **** wouldn't pay any attention to anything that's written in a UK news paper.

[arise_sir_charge]

(...) that should probably say "print mainstream media".

Yes major investors are well noted for doing their financial due diligence using press articles.

[arise_sir_charge]

I thought Hoos & Baldwin did a good job in that respect.

They may have been good with the fans groups etc but I can’t recall seeing a great deal of them in the wider press etc where most fans are likely to see them.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

As I've said before this story is likely to be the narrative of the Burnley relegation battle. Journalists will just steal the copy and replicate it if there is no rebuttal. Any CEO worth their salt would now be developing a media strategy - this will get very damaging if it continues.

Burnley fans can bury their heads in the sand but how do you think this looks to potential investors when the largest publications in the mainstream media is suggesting the club is a high investment risk.

Investors won't use newspapers to decide if a business Is worth investing in and it's common knowledge that football clubs are high risk unless you've been living in a cave on a deserted island for the last 30yrs.

[claretonthecoast1882]

As I've said before this story is likely to be the narrative of the Burnley relegation battle. Journalists will just steal the copy and replicate it if there is no rebuttal. Any CEO worth their salt would now be developing a media strategy - this will get very damaging if it continues.

Burnley fans can bury their heads in the sand but how do you think this looks to potential investors when the largest publications in the mainstream media is suggesting the club is a high investment risk.

Any CEO worth his salt will conduct himself in a professional manner and ignoring nonsense


There was a guy earlier today wanting to invest 200million but because he couldn't find an interview Pace in the Daily Star he pulled out

[ClaretPete001]

Yes major investors are well noted for doing their financial due diligence using press articles.

Easy to say on a football forum but I will bet Mr Pace and co will not want this kind of publicity.

And if he has any sense he will continue to issue rebuttals like the one issued against the non-payment of loans to former directors.

Or at least be onto his marketing or PR people to mobilise the influencers and see if he can get some positive media as well.

Course Bob Lord probably wouldn't have give a fig and anyone else stuck in bygone days when todays newspapers were tomorrow chip wrappings but modern business is different.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Any CEO worth his salt will conduct himself in a professional manner and ignoring nonsense


There was a guy earlier today wanting to invest 200million but because he couldn't find an interview Pace in the Daily Star he pulled out

Of course they will do due diligence however which football club is a CEO more likely to purchase for 200m

One that is constantly in the papers for being poorly ran or one that is known for being ran well?

[claretonthecoast1882]

This shows why we will always needs lifeguards.

Even when some are out of their depth and struggling they still want to walk out that bit deeper

[Rombald]

Of course they will do due diligence however which football club is a CEO more likely to purchase for 200m

One that is constantly in the papers for being poorly ran or one that is known for being ran well?

Poorly run. How do you come to this conclusion / guess.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Of course they will do due diligence however which football club is a CEO more likely to purchase for 200m

One that is constantly in the papers for being poorly ran or one that is known for being ran well?

Which club are you thinking for being poorly run ?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Poorly run. How do you come to this conclusion / guess.

The numerous reports over the last month

[Rombald]

Show me one that specifically states this. I don't mean thoughts on debt and how the takeover has been structured.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The numerous reports over the last month

[arise_sir_charge]

Of course they will do due diligence however which football club is a CEO more likely to purchase for 200m

One that is constantly in the papers for being poorly ran or one that is known for being ran well?

The CEO, if he’s any good at the job he’s no doubt paid handsomely to do, will spend the £200m somebody has trusted him with on the one that offers best value
following appropriate due diligence.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Show me one that specifically states this. I don't mean thoughts on debt and how the takeover has been structured.

Surely numerous reports from various sources about the debt and the takeover can be classed as that?

[Jakubclaret]

Because of the debt & subsequently having to need to find the funding to service it is the reason the transfer market will be so restrictive, perhaps even more so next season. ALK should have fronted up more capital thus lowering the interest rate from the cash flow.

[Rombald]

Surely numerous reports from various sources about the debt and the takeover can be classed as that?

That has happened. Its in the past. You may like or dislike the debt model.
However you mentioned running the business. Ie you have bought something and now you are running it as a business. So, where are these articles to say it is being run badly?

[ClaretPete001]

Surely numerous reports from various sources about the debt and the takeover can be classed as that?

I'd give up Newcastle once you get silly emojis you know you are not dealing with serious people.

No company likes bad publicity. An immediate rebuttal was issued against the press coverage of the loan arrangements between ALK and the former owners.

I've no doubt Mr Pace and his team will be conscious of it and it would be of concern to potential investors not least because football clubs are highly sensitive to poor media coverage. He may choose to keep his own counsel but I have no doubt his team will be working on it.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I'd give up Newcastle once you get silly emojis you know you are not dealing with serious people.

No company likes bad publicity. An immediate rebuttal was issued against the press coverage of the loan arrangements between ALK and the former owners.

I've no doubt Mr Pace and his team will be conscious of it and it would be of concern to potential investors not least because football clubs are highly sensitive to poor media coverage. He may choose to keep his own counsel but I have no doubt his team will be working on it.

Yep you are correct.

Some very confident posters given the constant bad press around this.

[arise_sir_charge]

Because of the debt & subsequently having to need to find the funding to service it is the reason the transfer market will be so restrictive, perhaps even more so next season. ALK should have fronted up more capital thus lowering the interest rate from the cash flow.

A lot of words, grouped together with no actual meaning.

Just stop.

[Jakubclaret]

A lot of words, grouped together with no actual meaning.

Just stop.

I could have just said because of the debt we are skint that would have been far simpler I guess.

[ClaretPete001]

Yep you are correct.

Some very confident posters given the constant bad press around this.

Some very confident posters given we have turned £80 million in cash into huge debts and currently lie at the bottom of the Premiership table with 1 win in 20. The bad press is justa reflection of that.....!

I grew up in a town where the kids sang songs in the school playground about the Chairman being a tw*t. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

[RVclaret]

Some very confident posters given we have turned £80 million in cash into huge debts and currently lie at the bottom of the Premiership table with 1 win in 20. The bad press is justa reflection of that.....!

I grew up in a town where the kids sang songs in the school playground about the Chairman being a tw*t. Makes you wonder doesn't it.

So it’s the chairman’s fault we’ve won 1 in 20?

[arise_sir_charge]

I could have just said because of the debt we are skint that would have been far simpler I guess.

And nothing more than a guess.

[Lancasterclaret]

These debates end with one of the usual suspects saying something completely mental

This has all the hallmarks of a "we never qualified for Europe when we finished 7th" spat

[Jakubclaret]

And nothing more than a guess.

Abit more than that a very good educated 1, the debts having negative effects throughout the whole club, we’ve effectively taken massive strides forward & due to the debt have gone backwards at an alarming rate.

[arise_sir_charge]

Abit more than that a very good educated 1, the debts having negative effects throughout the whole club, we’ve effectively taken massive strides forward & due to the debt have gone backwards at an alarming rate.

Ok

[ClaretCliff]

This shows why we will always needs lifeguards.

Even when some are out of their depth and struggling they still want to walk out that bit deeper

Haha - brilliant!

[ClaretPete001]

These debates end with one of the usual suspects saying something completely mental

This has all the hallmarks of a "we never qualified for Europe when we finished 7th" spat

Yes, I'm out of here. I'm beginning to feel like I'm stuck in a lift full of anti-vaxxers on the way to a "It'll never happen - oh it did - but it wasn't as bad as people say" conference - only with emojis.

[Lancasterclaret]

Yes, I'm out of here. I'm beginning to feel like I'm stuck in a lift full of anti-vaxxers on the way to a "It'll never happen - oh it did - but it wasn't as bad as people say" conference - only with emojis.

I want the people who know what they are talking about (you, aggi, Chester) to keep discussing it, and everyone else to leave you to it.

[ClaretPete001]

I want the people who know what they are talking about (you, aggi, Chester) to keep discussing it, and everyone else to leave you to it.

Thanks Lancaster I appreciate that . My suspicion is that the media has now got hold of this so I guess it will come around again.

[Paul Waine]

Just to illustrate, we've had Paul suggesting that £60m of debt from ALK to the old owners will be written off if we go down and you suggesting it will be payable by BFC if we go down. Obviously both can't be true but both were presented as something that was going to happen. £60m probably isn't classed as minutiae.

Hi aggi, just for the record, what I've suggested is that one or more parts of the (as reported) 3 instalments making up the £68 million (as reported) may not be payable in the event that the club is not in the Premier League. It's not quite the same as saying £60m of debt will be written off..." My logic is that the £68 million represents the difference between the value of a Premier League club and the value of a Championship club... Of course, this is no more than an educated guess on my part. We do not that the purchase price included amounts to be paid in instalments. This is confirmed both by John B's Freight Investor accounts - though there are discrepancies in the way the transaction is reported in those accounts. It is also confirmed by the recent statement made by Alan Pace, Mike Garlick and John B re "no instalments having been missed or delayed.."

I'm sure you didn't intend to state "£60m" and that that is a simple mix up with the £60m (as reported) term loan from MSD to Calder Vale referenced in the Debenture between Calder Vale and MSD (as filed with Companies House) and also linked to Kettering Capital and further linked to Burnley FC Holdings (and subsids) by the Security Accession Deed (also as filed with Companies House).

I'm sure you, like me, are familiar with Vendor Funding provided to the acquirer of a business by the seller of the business. I'm sure you will also know that Vendor Funding will often come with terms and conditions.

I expect we will all be eager to read Burnley FC Holdings annual report and accounts when they are published in April. I'm hoping that we will have several wins on the board by then and we will not be too concerned about what the outlook for the club will be if it isn't in the Premier League.

UTC

[Jakubclaret]

I want the people who know what they are talking about (you, aggi, Chester) to keep discussing it, and everyone else to leave you to it.

It’s not complicated anybody with half a brain cell should know all about the takeover without necessarily going into the finest miniature details, some people are just making the takeover more complicated & regurgitating what’s already been said & happened, you can freeze frame time & advance to another fortnight & nothing much would have changed.

[Elizabeth]

Jakub, Lancaster wants everyone but those he has chosen to leave the thread .
I'm with him to some degree but I would go further and ask that everyone leave the thread

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I'd give up Newcastle once you get silly emojis you know you are not dealing with serious people.

No company likes bad publicity. An immediate rebuttal was issued against the press coverage of the loan arrangements between ALK and the former owners.

I've no doubt Mr Pace and his team will be conscious of it and it would be of concern to potential investors not least because football clubs are highly sensitive to poor media coverage. He may choose to keep his own counsel but I have no doubt his team will be working on it.

How many times do they need to talk to the press about the club's finances?
They issued a statement not that long ago, do they need to do one with every article printed?
That's pretty tiresome for the owners if so.

It's just the media regurgitating the same old stuff just worded slightly differently so how about we just keep linking the club's last statement?

[aggi]

Hi aggi, just for the record, what I've suggested is that one or more parts of the (as reported) 3 instalments making up the £68 million (as reported) may not be payable in the event that the club is not in the Premier League. It's not quite the same as saying £60m of debt will be written off..." My logic is that the £68 million represents the difference between the value of a Premier League club and the value of a Championship club... Of course, this is no more than an educated guess on my part. We do not that the purchase price included amounts to be paid in instalments. This is confirmed both by John B's Freight Investor accounts - though there are discrepancies in the way the transaction is reported in those accounts. It is also confirmed by the recent statement made by Alan Pace, Mike Garlick and John B re "no instalments having been missed or delayed.."

I'm sure you didn't intend to state "£60m" and that that is a simple mix up with the £60m (as reported) term loan from MSD to Calder Vale referenced in the Debenture between Calder Vale and MSD (as filed with Companies House) and also linked to Kettering Capital and further linked to Burnley FC Holdings (and subsids) by the Security Accession Deed (also as filed with Companies House).

I'm sure you, like me, are familiar with Vendor Funding provided to the acquirer of a business by the seller of the business. I'm sure you will also know that Vendor Funding will often come with terms and conditions.

I expect we will all be eager to read Burnley FC Holdings annual report and accounts when they are published in April. I'm hoping that we will have several wins on the board by then and we will not be too concerned about what the outlook for the club will be if it isn't in the Premier League.

UTC

I think the £60m was from mixing it up with ClaretPete's figures on something else.

The reason it seems unlikely that some instalments won't be paid if we get relegated is the Freight Investor accounts don't attach any conditions to the debtor. Given how material the figures are to the accounts there is no way the audit report would be signed off if something like a third of the payment was conditional on the club staying up. Personally if I was preparing them then I'd probably be showing that element as a contingent asset if that was the situation.

[Paul Waine]

I think the £60m was from mixing it up with ClaretPete's figures on something else.

The reason it seems unlikely that some instalments won't be paid if we get relegated is the Freight Investor accounts don't attach any conditions to the debtor. Given how material the figures are to the accounts there is no way the audit report would be signed off if something like a third of the payment was conditional on the club staying up. Personally if I was preparing them then I'd probably be showing that element as a contingent asset if that was the situation.

Hi aggi, as I said, I find discrepancies in the way Freight Investors reports the disposal of the investment in BFC.

The Group Strategic Report (page 1) states: "The Company as one of the Burnley FC shareholders participated in the sale of the club in 2020 to ALK Capital, generating a profit on disposal of £29.5m....The payments to the Company are split into 5 future instalments to be received in 2021, 22 and 23."

Notes to the Financial Statements, Note 17 (page 33) Debtors, Due within one year - Prepayments and Accrued Income of £30,022 (Company).

I'd have expected the Debtors to split the amount between "due within one year" and "due after more than one year in line with the statement that the amount would be received in "5 future instalments in 2021, 22 and 23." Given the materiality of the transaction and related receivable and the date the accounts were signed off (June 21) I'd have expected the Strategic Report to have referenced the date of disposal (30th Dec, the day before the end of the accounting period) and possibly also note that £Xm had been received as a subsequent event.

Like you, if later instalments were contingent on future events - like BFC remaining in the Premier League - I'd have expected this to be disclosed.

No doubt, sometime in the future, all will be a lot clearer.

UTC

[Father Jack]

From Jan 2021 -

"I would tell you that the way we have done this, I am absolutely positively certain has never been done in the same way before," said Pace, speaking to Lancs Live, on Tuesday.

"It has everything to do with making that fanbase comfortable that this is the most sustainable form of what we could have done. Bar none.”

“We can't speak about it for a whole bunch of reasons, but if I was in front of a number of fans at any given time I could put my hand on my heart, look them in the eye and say 'you should be proud of the way that this club has done what it has done. And you should be happy with knowing where it can go and will go with the structures that have been put in place.”

- - - -

So over 12 months later we still don’t know what these quotes refer too?
And the only person willing to speculate is Paul who has put forward a potential theory that one of the instalments may not be payable if we get relegated.

One thing I’ve considered is that hypothetically MG and JB could use their sale proceeds to clear ALK’s debt to MSD and resume control of the club if ALK got to the point of walking away and wanting to use the clubs assets to clear their debts.
Then we’d almost be back where we started albeit likely to be in a lower division.
Would this arrangement qualify as something that would make the fans proud?

[Chester Perry]

From Jan 2021 -

"I would tell you that the way we have done this, I am absolutely positively certain has never been done in the same way before," said Pace, speaking to Lancs Live, on Tuesday.

"It has everything to do with making that fanbase comfortable that this is the most sustainable form of what we could have done. Bar none.”

“We can't speak about it for a whole bunch of reasons, but if I was in front of a number of fans at any given time I could put my hand on my heart, look them in the eye and say 'you should be proud of the way that this club has done what it has done. And you should be happy with knowing where it can go and will go with the structures that have been put in place.”

- - - -

So over 12 months later we still don’t know what these quotes refer too?
And the only person willing to speculate is Paul who has put forward a potential theory that one of the instalments may not be payable if we get relegated.

One thing I’ve considered is that hypothetically MG and JB could use their sale proceeds to clear ALK’s debt to MSD and resume control of the club if ALK got to the point of walking away and wanting to use the clubs assets to clear their debts.
Then we’d almost be back where we started albeit likely to be in a lower division.
Would this arrangement qualify as something that would make the fans proud?

Except we do know more than we did then and I know Paul does too - there is no discount on relegation - relegation would likely mean no bonus payment - this is much more than a subtle difference

Paul you need to re-read the share offer letter - The minimum price for the 84% of shares (all 102,852 of them), comes in at less than £500 shy of £170m (relegation almost certainly means it will not be more) - there is also the option to buy the other 12,048 shares from those seven sellers (minimum of another £19.9m) and not forgetting the offer to the small shareholders - 7,578 shares at £1,699 is £12.875m

What I have said is in what is considered a legal document (the Share Offer Letter of Oct 4 2021) it is from the club on behalf of CVHL/VSL the equivalent of coming from Alan Pace's mouth

CVHL/VSL have committed to the 102,852 shares at a minimum price
they have an option on the remaining 12,048 shares from those same sellers
they have made an offer for 7,578 shares from the small shareholders

there is nothing vague about it it is clear legal fact, that over 1700 shareholders have received in writing (some of which are member entities (Clarets Trust, Earby Clarets etc) and it is likely a few hundred others have seen the letter too.

Hi CP, yes, I've still to get my head around the details in the offer to small shareholders, the details reported in Freight Investors annual accounts and the original reports of the deal.

There is more in that Offer Letter that deals in part with your closing hypothesis - not quite as you say or indeed the handback most famously stated by David Hellier for Bloomberg on Jan 7 2021 but there are measures in place to prevent an insolvency - this is clearly referred to in that letter.

As I have also said this and other details will be further detailed in my corrected, revised and extended article for the London Clarets, It is a complex and deep piece that I am still working on

[ClaretPete001]

How many times do they need to talk to the press about the club's finances?
They issued a statement not that long ago, do they need to do one with every article printed?
That's pretty tiresome for the owners if so.

It's just the media regurgitating the same old stuff just worded slightly differently so how about we just keep linking the club's last statement?

Because the last statement was specific to the loan repayments and most of the articles are about the robustness of the business model.

And the mainstream media is a part of the business life of a football club . You can get tired of it on a football forum but the club should have marketing people and PR companies who are advising them on this issue.

If it was any company/organisation I've worked in the Chief Exec would have released a bland generic statement that can be used by the press (as you yourself suggest) before now.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Because the last statement was specific to the loan repayments and most of the articles are about the robustness of the business model.

And the mainstream media is a part of the business life of a football club . You can get tired of it on a football forum but the club should have marketing people and PR companies who are advising them on this issue.

If it was any company/organisation I've worked in the Chief Exec would have released a bland generic statement that can be used by the press (as you yourself suggest) before now.

So maybe the PR companies are advising them that it's just more regurgitated nonsense and not to bother with it ..

If we were outside the relegation zone and doing alright then this wouldn't be weekly news because there's nothing new to report.

[ClaretPete001]

So maybe the PR companies are advising them that it's just more regurgitated nonsense and not to bother with it ..

If we were outside the relegation zone and doing alright then this wouldn't be weekly news because there's nothing new to report.

Maybe so! But having a bland rebuttal issued on behalf of the club makes sense. You must agree because you made the point yourself.

And indeed if we weren't facing relegation this would not be an issues in the same way that if there were no icebergs in the North Atlantic Ocean Leo Di Caprio wouldn't have starred in a movie about the Titanic.

[KRBFC]

Maybe so! But having a bland rebuttal issued on behalf of the club makes sense. You must agree because you made the point yourself.

And indeed if we weren't facing relegation this would not be an issues in the same way that if there were no icebergs in the North Atlantic Ocean Leo Di Caprio wouldn't have starred in a movie about the Titanic.

Sidney is the PR team, a lone wolf fanning the flames.