They had 44, but only 14 operable. I hope the yanks repair them before they sell them onLowbankclaret wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:32 pmI don’t know how many MIGs they have , but that is massive.
Large columns stuck on roads are a sitting duck to air power.
This is huge!
Th\t is de facto ending Ukraine independence, and essentially meets all the pre-Russian war aims, and Russia could take over Ukraine whenever it choosebfcjg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:21 pmSky news report
Russia-Ukraine negotiations 'much more serious than West is saying' and gaps between sides 'not great' - report
A fascinating report has been published in the Jerusalem Post this afternoon, which quotes sources it says were privy to a meeting three days ago between Israeli PM Naftali Bennett and Vladimir Putin.
The gist of the story is that negotiations between Russia and Ukraine are "much more serious than what the West has been saying".
It says Ukranian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been given a "final" version of Mr Putin's offer to end the crisis and - in a claim that would represent a rare glimmer of hope amid Russia's brutal attacks - "the gaps between the sides are not great" (assuming, as this correspondent is, that "great" is being used in its definition that relates to size rather than that which relates to quality).
"The real negotiations, according to the sources, are happening directly between Russia and Ukraine and are much more serious than what the West has been saying," the report claims.
"Kyiv has not shared with the West what has been going on in the negotiations since they do not want to [dampen] the worldwide sense of emergency."
The report outlined the following as the arrangement being offered to Ukraine's leader: "Zelenskyy can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognise the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence."
The newspaper goes on to say Mr Zelenskyy is "torn" over the offer.
It should be noted here that this report cannot be verified by Sky News, and that some will suggest information from sources close to Israel's government - which has had a close alliance with the Putin regime - may be tailored to support their own agenda.
However, if there does turn out to be any substance to claims that a deal is "difficult" but not "impossible", this could clearly be of huge significance.
To a point I agree, but on the other hand Russia is sport mad - and starving them off from Western football is another way the West demonstrates Putin does not have any say in the Premier League.bobinho wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:13 pmNot sure that's a great idea tbh. Yeah, i know we want to cut Russia off, but the Kremlin are very, very good at cutting off information to their own people. Showing PL footy with players showing messages of support for Ukraine, Messages of support on the advertising billboards and all the players wearing the Ukraine flag round their shoulders as they come out gets a message directly to the Russian people.
I think this has come from a Senator who mis-spoke prior to The State of the Union address the other night. It was absolutely denied as an option later that night by the President (unless things have changed, since).Billy Balfour wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:33 pmCede the Donbas region? Maybe this would be palatable if it brought peace, but not for the rest, especially shrinking the Ukrainian army. I think it's a none-starter. Anyhow, none of it might be true.
just in time for the Ukrainian's to use the newly found air force and new drones they are gettingSammyBoy wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:30 pmA piece here from The Guardian referencing a Washington think tank that suggests the Russian's might be solving their logistics issues.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ys-experts
Good post. Fairly uplifting. All this talk of jets being delivered and implementing no fly zones has been giving me feelings of dread all day.bfcjg wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:21 pmSky news report
Russia-Ukraine negotiations 'much more serious than West is saying' and gaps between sides 'not great' - report
A fascinating report has been published in the Jerusalem Post this afternoon, which quotes sources it says were privy to a meeting three days ago between Israeli PM Naftali Bennett and Vladimir Putin.
The gist of the story is that negotiations between Russia and Ukraine are "much more serious than what the West has been saying".
It says Ukranian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has been given a "final" version of Mr Putin's offer to end the crisis and - in a claim that would represent a rare glimmer of hope amid Russia's brutal attacks - "the gaps between the sides are not great" (assuming, as this correspondent is, that "great" is being used in its definition that relates to size rather than that which relates to quality).
"The real negotiations, according to the sources, are happening directly between Russia and Ukraine and are much more serious than what the West has been saying," the report claims.
"Kyiv has not shared with the West what has been going on in the negotiations since they do not want to [dampen] the worldwide sense of emergency."
The report outlined the following as the arrangement being offered to Ukraine's leader: "Zelenskyy can fortify Ukraine's independence but will have to pay a heavy price, the sources said. Assumptions are that he will be forced to give up the contested Donbas region, officially recognise the pro-Russian dissidents in Ukraine, pledge that Ukraine will not join NATO, shrink his army and declare neutrality. If he declines the proposal, the outcome may be terrible: thousands, perhaps tens of thousands of Ukrainians will die and there is a high probability that his country will completely lose its independence."
The newspaper goes on to say Mr Zelenskyy is "torn" over the offer.
It should be noted here that this report cannot be verified by Sky News, and that some will suggest information from sources close to Israel's government - which has had a close alliance with the Putin regime - may be tailored to support their own agenda.
However, if there does turn out to be any substance to claims that a deal is "difficult" but not "impossible", this could clearly be of huge significance.
Worth watching for Lawrence Freedman.elwaclaret wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:40 pmStrong panel for Question Time tomorrow night
https://twitter.com/bbcquestiontime/sta ... 28898?s=21
the Ukrainian's have the ability to repair plenty. The operable number is 29 I believe, not sure where your 14 have come from ?Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:18 pmThey had 44, but only 14 operable. I hope the yanks repair them before they sell them on
Thanks Alp. Well worth a read.ALP wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 9:58 pmInteresting article FT
https://www.ft.com/content/97c07bd5-4d5 ... 0621259779
Isn't that Steve Craddock?elwaclaret wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 7:46 pmQuite right. Mental slip - and I wholeheartedly apologise: - I’ve been writing about Ocean Colour Scene (and Chris Craddock) recently for an article, that really is my only excuse.
there's no way a large part of the Russian population will believe a word Putin is saying with all these Western companies withdrawing, an airline that no longer goes abroad etc. Just wish they had the same fight of the Ukrainian's to stand up to Putinelwaclaret wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:08 pmYoung Russians queue for a last taste of the West.
https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/150 ... 17504?s=21
Just because Ukraine doesn't join NATO, doesn't mean we can't arm them to the teeth.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Tue Mar 08, 2022 8:30 pmTh\t is de facto ending Ukraine independence, and essentially meets all the pre-Russian war aims, and Russia could take over Ukraine whenever it choose
It sounds like a Russian wet dream to be honest, but at least they are talking
This is the bit I'm struggling with
US self interest has no bounds.
Doing it off their own bat would leave Poland vulnerable. Replacing their MIGs with modern planes, selling the MIGs as scrap, and the 'scrappy ' selling them to Ukraine was beautiful in its conception.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 7:40 amThis is the bit I'm struggling with
Clearly, NATO equipment is pouring across the border from aircraft that have landed in NATO bases and then transferred their cargos into trucks and van for the run into Ukraine
That is fine
But aircraft actually flying directly into Ukraine from NATO airbases isn't
To be honest, Poland could transfer the planes directly without involving the US at all, and that does lead to the suspicion that this is all an PR exercise to show how NATO is trying to do more than it probably can
Well, it wouldn't be an imminent transfer, and the Ukrainians still have usable air bases in the West of the countryBilly Balfour wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:27 amWhere would the 29s fly from? I would have thought that most, if not all, Ukrainian airbases had been taken out, especially when it comes to jet aircraft taking off and landing. Also, even if they haven't been knocked out, can you jump from a MIG-29 into one that's been upgraded with all manner of West Tech without any training whatsoever.
Nah, its not that, they were over just this week reinforcing the commitment to Article 5Colburn_Claret wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:12 amDoing it off their own bat would leave Poland vulnerable. Replacing their MIGs with modern planes, selling the MIGs as scrap, and the 'scrappy ' selling them to Ukraine was beautiful in its conception.
The yanks talk the talk, but appear frightened to engage Putin. I could see if it did kick off, Biden saying it's a European problem.
To be honest, we shouldn't even know about this, and neither should the Russians. If this was going to be doable, it should have been done behind closed doors.Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:46 amThey have spent the last week levelling cities to see what the western response is, and this is the sort of thing that they see as a sign (almost certainly wrongly, which has been their problem for months) that they can carry on doing what they want
Not the sort of thing you can do behind closed doors thoughBilly Balfour wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:56 amTo be honest, we shouldn't even know about this, and neither should the Russians. If this was going to be doable, it should have been done behind closed doors.
Does make it look like the US want to talk the talk for PR purposes but don't actually want to go through with it. Bet they never expected Poland to agree but now they have it's put them on the spot. God knows what Zelensky and Ukrainians are making of it all.Billy Balfour wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 8:56 amTo be honest, we shouldn't even know about this, and neither should the Russians. If this was going to be doable, it should have been done behind closed doors.
Ukraine seem to be backing off from NATO membershipMala591 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:37 amRussia allowing civilians to leave major Ukraine cities before they flatten them and murder all the remaining innocent Ukrainians.
Europe and U.S. stand by wringing their hands in despair.
Admit Ukraine into NATO immediately and stop this genocide before it’s too late!
I could spend hours looking at them mapsJarrowClaret wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:28 amWasn’t on this last night so no idea if it has been posted already but some excellent analysis in this thread:
https://twitter.com/jominiw/status/1501 ... 89508?s=21
I think there has to be a balance hereclaretonthecoast1882 wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:42 amUkraine seem to be backing off from NATO membership
How do you know this?Lancasterclaret wrote: ↑Wed Mar 09, 2022 9:02 amNot the sort of thing you can do behind closed doors though
NATO/the West has been completely up front with what it is doing to help Ukraine (obviously with the usual "Top secret" caveats about just how much help they are giving them from a SIGNIT point of view)
Maybe the issue is that things like anti-tanks and anti-air missiles are defensive, whilst combat aircraft are not is the crucial distinction?
Was talking to a pal called Chris - guitarist in a band as I typed. Who said I can’t multitask 