But it's quite telling that we are the only club to sustain such longevity in the Premier league on a limited budget by keeping the same manager.Les Lawrence wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:54 amWho says we wouldn't have come straight back up under another manager?He's not the only manager to ever do it,
But as you can personally testify equally a lot of garbage is posted & some posters are pretty much forever right & some posters are forever wrong, you’ve got 2 extremes of 1 set of posters that are extremely knowledgeable & the other set that know nothing to be honest there’s no middle ground.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:58 amMaybe not revelling in it but there are some posters who seem to place a higher importance on being able to say "I told you so" than the actual fortunes of the club.
Spot on.TheFamilyCat wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 10:58 amMaybe not revelling in it but there are some posters who seem to place a higher importance on being able to say "I told you so" than the actual fortunes of the club.
But you have to wonder if any of that is to do with playing against 11 men and a defence that hasn't gone AWOL? If the entire Wolves side had stood back and let us take as many shots as we needed, then we would probably have scored more. Our performance against Wolves, 11 v 11, was significantly better than Leeds' 11 v 11.
Assuming we do drop Sean has to show he can turn our fortunes around quickly, and my biggest worry is if SD and the back room team remain then so will a lot of the ageing squad, when what we're desperately crying out for is dynamism, pace & youth.
And for further context Dyche is one of the most successful managers in our history, unlike Laws - crazy comparison providing little context.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:37 amAssuming we do drop Sean has to show he can turn our fortunes around quickly, and my biggest worry is if SD and the back room team remain then so will a lot of the ageing squad, when what we're desperately crying out for is dynamism, pace & youth.
Sean probably will be given time especially given his lengthy contract, but he needs to start delivering results ASAP in the Championship, it's been widely mentioned how impressive his past record is at that level, and yes that's true, but past form is no guarantee of future success, and perhaps for the first time in his long reign SD is really under pressure.
An absolute minimum next season must be a play-off place, and Laws was potted when we were 8th for context, and only a couple of points shy of the play-off's.
I don't disagree Dyche has been the most successful manager in most of our lifetimes, however our form in the past 2 years has been dreadful by any standards, admittedly at PL level with little investment in our squad, and the hope has to be that if we return to the Championship he'll rediscover his mojo and get us motoring again, but a lot will depend on who we can keep hold of, and who we have to sell to balance the books, plus reduce the wage bill.
I don't disagree with any of that and that wasn't my point. After all it's pretty much factual. I was questioning why bringing Laws into it provides context when the success of the two of them is poles apart.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:58 amI don't disagree Dyche has been the most successful manager in most of our lifetimes, however our form in the past 2 years has been dreadful by any standards, admittedly at PL level with little investment in our squad, and the hope has to be that if we return to the Championship he'll rediscover his mojo and get us motoring again, but a lot will depend on who we can keep hold of, and who we have to sell to balance the books, plus reduce the wage bill.
Losing is a habit in football, and sadly this team is used to losing now, so imo it's vital we get off to a strong start in the Championship, and get that winning feeling back in the ranks.
Fair enough I was merely pointing out the criteria that the board at that time used to determine whether a manager was up to the task, but given it was 10 years ago and we now have a totally different ownership it's probably not that relevant.
Of course we'd need to try to get promoted in the first season, especially because of how the club is financially structured and the debt. I believe the best chance of that happening would be with Dyche, but I know you want him gone.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 12:13 pmFair enough I was merely pointing out the criteria that the board at that time used to determine whether a manager was up to the task, but given it was 10 years ago and we now have a totally different ownership it's probably not that relevant.
But generally the benchmark for a team relegated from the PL is play-off's at worst, and the best time to bounce back is year 1, hence why it's important we assert our authority early in the season, as we showed last time once you get on a roll momentum is huge.
And a few wins in the opening weeks of the season could easily see the much longed for feel good factor return rapidly if we look like making a quick fire return to the top flight.
I just feel the club needs freshening up, now whether that's with recruiting new players or changing the manager something has to change, and as I stated a few posts above, if SD stays then it's more than likely a lot of the older squad members will be offered new deals, and that's how we got into this mess in the first place by offering new contracts to guys past their best, instead of refreshing the squad on a regular basis, I only hope that in the event of relegation we target more signings in the mould of Collins & Roberts, but I harbour doubts that will happen under Sean, and we can ill afford to waste what limited funds we have on over 30's, the good thing is we have many out of contract, and that provides us with an opportunity to rebuild with younger legs should we choose to take it.
But it would cost us about 10 million to pot him now. I don't see him getting a better offer and I can't see him walking away from a contract like that. I think this summer would have been a good time for a change for both sides tbh.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:20 pmI just feel the club needs freshening up, now whether that's with recruiting new players or changing the manager something has to change, and as I stated a few posts above, if SD stays then it's more than likely a lot of the older squad members will be offered new deals, and that's how we got into this mess in the first place by offering new contracts to guys past their best, instead of refreshing the squad on a regular basis, I only hope that in the event of relegation we target more signings in the mould of Collins & Roberts, but I harbour doubts that will happen under Sean, and we can ill afford to waste what limited funds we have on over 30's, the good thing is we have many out of contract, and that provides us with an opportunity to rebuild with younger legs should we choose to take it.
I can see arguments for keeping Sean- his Championship record, continuity, and stability.
But equally I can also see why some feel a change is required- 10 years at one club is rare in this era, Sean's tactics and the squad have grown stale, and we lack the energy we used to possess in spades to grit wins out against the odds.
I doubt Pace will pull the trigger yet, but SD won't be given unlimited time to arrest our stuttering form, and if he insists on doling out contracts for many of our ageing squad then he'll need to show why they deserve retaining, because on present form few of them have earned an extension in my view. and we shouldn't be rewarding failure, yes they've been great servants to the cause, but time moves on and it feels like a real end of an era with this present bunch.
So it's up to Sean to display that he can mould yet another promotion winning side, and prove the doubters like me wrong, and if he does I'll happily eat humble pie.
Agree about habits and momentum in football and right now we are wrong side of that fine line.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:58 amI don't disagree Dyche has been the most successful manager in most of our lifetimes, however our form in the past 2 years has been dreadful by any standards, admittedly at PL level with little investment in our squad, and the hope has to be that if we return to the Championship he'll rediscover his mojo and get us motoring again, but a lot will depend on who we can keep hold of, and who we have to sell to balance the books, plus reduce the wage bill.
Losing is a habit in football, and sadly this team is used to losing now, so imo it's vital we get off to a strong start in the Championship, and get that winning feeling back in the ranks.
I think we've become victims of our own success. Dyche's achievements have exceeded, by such a long way, any expectations we had as fans, to the point where he's been elevated to a status which has actually become quite unhealthy.ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:19 amSpot on.
And I can assure you I don't enjoy us being where we are in the table. It hurts, but then I look back and I do wonder how on earth our club, a club our size, has managed six consecutive seasons in this league. It was always going to come to an end. It might not do yet this season, and I really hope it doesn't but one day it will and then the revellers will be out in force as they are on a Saturday night after defeats some of them actually demanding the removal of the one man who has given us all this.
It is also known Dyche refused to sell players which would have allowed him to have the budget to freshen up the squad. It is also known Dyche refused the signing of Harry Wilson that Stephens window. Dyche didn’t play our record signing Gibson which ended in a fiasco and sold at a loss. He also hardly played another 10m signing in Vydra who’s now leaving on a free. Is all of that the boards fault?BabylonClaret wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:44 pmAgree about habits and momentum in football and right now we are wrong side of that fine line.
But blaming our decline over the last 2 years on Dyche is mental. It is 100% on the Board and their reluctance or inability to keep the squad refreshed whilst running it down.
In those 2 years we've let go 3 or 4 key first team players, some of our other first teamers are injury prone or drifting into back up players and we have brought in a couple of defenders, an enigma who looks out of it at this level for most of the time and a forward we have taken a bit of a punt on. And you wonder why we are struggling?
Last season we signed no-one (don't say Stephens - he has played about 5 minutes in the league).
Everyone bangs on about how much it would cost to get rid of SD (or anyone else, for that matter).
Yes that £10m fee is one reason why Sean is secure in his job for now. Of course in hindsight that new contract doesn't like so clever by Alan Pace now, but I must confess I was happy at the time. And in hindsight we'd all do certain things differently.
I don't blame our decline completely on Dyche, but he has to take his share of the blame for allowing the squad to age all at once, plus handing out large contracts for players past their best.BabylonClaret wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:44 pmAgree about habits and momentum in football and right now we are wrong side of that fine line.
But blaming our decline over the last 2 years on Dyche is mental. It is 100% on the Board and their reluctance or inability to keep the squad refreshed whilst running it down.
In those 2 years we've let go 3 or 4 key first team players, some of our other first teamers are injury prone or drifting into back up players and we have brought in a couple of defenders, an enigma who looks out of it at this level for most of the time and a forward we have taken a bit of a punt on. And you wonder why we are struggling?
Last season we signed no-one (don't say Stephens - he has played about 5 minutes in the league).
As I say above, tiger, we won't pay anywhere near £10m in all likelihood if SD were to go. He'd be offered, and almost certainly agree, a compromise agreement otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to do ANY work whilst still under contract at BFC (even if relieved of his management duties)
Gibson simply didn't play because Ben Mee wasn't injuredRVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:56 pmIt is also known Dyche refused to sell players which would have allowed him to have the budget to freshen up the squad. It is also known Dyche refused the signing of Harry Wilson that Stephens window. Dyche didn’t play our record signing Gibson which ended in a fiasco and sold at a loss. He also hardly played another 10m signing in Vydra who’s now leaving on a free. Is all of that the boards fault?
Interesting, I didn’t realise it worked like that. So if a manager gets paid out, let’s say, for the next year, he can’t get another job in that year? Or is the ‘agreement’ that he can find another job in that time ‘if’ they agree on a shorter payout termination?Goddy wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:24 pmAs I say above, tiger, we won't pay anywhere near £10m in all likelihood if SD were to go. He'd be offered, and almost certainly agree, a compromise agreement otherwise he wouldn't be allowed to do ANY work whilst still under contract at BFC (even if relieved of his management duties)
Well then spending up to £15m (aware it didn’t reach near that, but it could have) for a club of our limited resources, on a back up player, was really poor squad building and planning wasn’t it? Priorities could and should have been elsewhere.
There's no argument that Mee or Tarkowski should have been dropped to make room for Gibson. The manager's going to pick the best team. I don't think there's much of an argument for saying we could have strengthened the side by selling our best players, either. It didn't work in the seventies and it wouldn't work now. OK when we have a replacement in line, eg. Keane, Vokes, Gray, Heaton, but not as an absolute policy.RVclaret wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:56 pmIt is also known Dyche refused to sell players which would have allowed him to have the budget to freshen up the squad. It is also known Dyche refused the signing of Harry Wilson that Stephens window. Dyche didn’t play our record signing Gibson which ended in a fiasco and sold at a loss. He also hardly played another 10m signing in Vydra who’s now leaving on a free. Is all of that the boards fault?
Were you happy with the signing of Gibson at the time like many other people were? Can you not see why he rightly rarely played?tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:21 pmI don't blame our decline completely on Dyche, but he has to take his share of the blame for allowing the squad to age all at once, plus handing out large contracts for players past their best.
And in the one summer we did spend fairly heavily we recruited Gibson & Vydra for large sums, one has been a complete flop for a variety of reasons, and the other has been a bit part player at best. The board can't be blamed for those poor signings.
Not strengthening the midfield is what's likely to cost us in the end, and we can't say the warning signs weren't there last season.
Let's say an employee has 3 years left on a contract. If the employer wishes to end that contract they can either continue paying and say to the employee 'stay at home and collect your money but you can't do any other work for the duration of that contract as you are our employee'.
I was happy at the time yes, and I can see why he rarely featured, but it was a large fee for a club of our resources to splash out for little or no return, and we can't really afford to make the mistakes in the market that others can, thankfully we managed to recoup most of our outlay from Norwich.
It was only a mistake because Mee and Tarkowski have been immense and rarely unavailable. It wasn't really a big fee without the benefit of hindsight and understanding the broader nuances.tiger76 wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 2:43 pmI was happy at the time yes, and I can see why he rarely featured, but it was a large fee for a club of our resources to splash out for little or no return, and we can't really afford to make the mistakes in the market that others can, thankfully we managed to recoup most of our outlay from Norwich.
At the time Ben Mee hadn't signed a new contract
They were. Dyche wanted Jayrod and Dawson fro m West Brom. Both (at the time) would have improved the squad.
Wouldn’t disagree with that at all. There’s also the issue of what happens when an over exceeding manager leaves. It usually ends with a sharp decline.JohnMcGreal wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:55 pmI think we've become victims of our own success. Dyche's achievements have exceeded, by such a long way, any expectations we had as fans, to the point where he's been elevated to a status which has actually become quite unhealthy.
Prior to signing Gibson the club wasn’t sure if mee was staying as I recall he was stalling on a contract & the club were preparing themselves for mees exit by signing Gibson as a straightforward replacement not competition, mee changed his mind & ended up stopping & Gibson then had to play second fiddle which led to him returning to teeside to train & then the club sold him to Norwich when it became clear it could never work.
That does tend to be the case more often than not. I suppose the question in our case is, are we already in the early stages of a sharp decline before the over exceeding manager has even left?ClaretTony wrote: ↑Sat Mar 19, 2022 4:11 pmWouldn’t disagree with that at all. There’s also the issue of what happens when an over exceeding manager leaves. It usually ends with a sharp decline.
