Weghorst

[arise_sir_charge]

A completed pass is quite simple.

A pass that is successfully received from another player on the same team.

So if Westwood passes the ball to Brownhill and he controls it, that is classed as a completed pass.

On that basis then I’m even less inclined to look at those stats as far as Westwood is concerned.

[Newcastleclaret93]

On that basis then I’m even less inclined to look at those stats as far as Westwood is concerned.

Why? It’s there black and white.

Westwood has the best pass completion stats out of all our CMs and gets slated for losing the ball.

Brownhill managed to complete 19 passes out of 32 attempts and still manages to get 7-8 ratings from people.

It’s nothing more than posters agendas on certain players.

[RVclaret]

Why? It’s there black and white.

Westwood has the best pass completion stats out of all our CMs and gets slated for losing the ball.

Brownhill managed to complete 19 passes out of 32 attempts and still manages to get 7-8 ratings from people.

It’s nothing more than posters agendas on certain players.

Quite rich for you to be calling agendas

[Newcastleclaret93]

Quite rich for you to be calling agendas

I’ve never had agendas. Always supported my theories with stats.

[Bin Ont Turf]

Absolutely terrible in the air for a big lad. In fact he doesn't look like he has much interest in challenging to head the ball.

To be fair though he's Dutch, and they like it on the floor.

[arise_sir_charge]

Why? It’s there black and white.

Westwood has the best pass completion stats out of all our CMs and gets slated for losing the ball.

Brownhill managed to complete 19 passes out of 32 attempts and still manages to get 7-8 ratings from people.

It’s nothing more than posters agendas on certain players.

Because with my eyes I see passes from Westwood that whilst they reach their man so so in a manner that is either difficult to handle or in the most parts fails to advance the play/game.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Because with my eyes I see passes from Westwood that whilst they reach their man so so in a manner that is either difficult to handle or in the most parts fails to advance the play/game.

Haha what nonsense.

I imagine you think the other players do passes to feat then?

[RVclaret]

I’ve never had agendas. Always supported my theories with stats.

Or one could say your stats are presented in a way to support your agendas, without acknowledging other stats which may disprove your theories.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Wout reminds me of Teddy Sheringham. Likes to drop deep, not physical nor the best header for a big man, good with the ball at his feet, tidy finisher.

Sheringham as we know was some player. One who needed Shearer or Cole ahead of him. Wout is the same. We have to build around that next season if we stay up.

[arise_sir_charge]

Haha what nonsense.

I imagine you think the other players do passes to feat then?

No I think overall we are the worst team for ball retention in the league and I think stats prove this.

I think Westwood is a major part of this problem and does little to impact the game.

[Newcastleclaret93]

No I think overall we are the worst team for ball retention in the league and I think stats prove this.

I think Westwood is a major part of this problem and does little to impact the game.

Westwood literally has our best pass completion stats in midfield

[arise_sir_charge]

Westwood literally has our best pass completion stats in midfield

Pointless talking anymore. You keep looking at spreadsheets and pie charts, I’ll watch the games and form an opinion……one that seems consistent with the majority on here as it happens.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Pointless talking anymore. You keep looking at spreadsheets and pie charts, I’ll watch the games and form an opinion……one that seems consistent with the majority on here as it happens.

Yep one completely wrong agenda. But go ahead.

[Jakubclaret]

Pointless talking anymore. You keep looking at spreadsheets and pie charts, I’ll watch the games and form an opinion……one that seems consistent with the majority on here as it happens.

If only the playing ratings supported that view for a team that’s supposedly committed to the cause & maximising efforts & consistent the rating are up & down like a nurses nightdress, you can literally give a player a 4 & thr week after give that same player a 8.

[arise_sir_charge]

If only the playing ratings supported that view for a team that’s supposedly committed to the cause & maximising efforts & consistent the rating are up & down like a nurses nightdress, you can literally give a player a 4 & thr week after give that same player a 8.

Yes but one week that player had an interception % of 78.1 and the week after it was 71.6 but that said his pass completion improved by 8.1% and his XG by 0.36 so maybe that was harsh.

Actually when you watch the games you’ll see that one week the player stopped some possible goals, the week after he may have been at fault for some. One week he passed well, the week after a bit better and he also hit the target with his shots rather than blaze them over the bar!

Stats are over complicating the game. Trust your eyes, they rarely get it wrong.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Yes but one week that player had an interception % of 78.1 and the week after it was 71.6 but that said his pass completion improved by 8.1% and his XG by 0.36 so maybe that was harsh.

Actually when you watch the games you’ll see that one week the player stopped some possible goals, the week after he may have been at fault for some. One week he passed well, the week after a bit better and he also hit the target with his shots rather than blaze them over the bar!

Stats are over complicating the game. Trust your eyes, they rarely get it wrong.

They really arnt.

These are the passing stats for last night:

Westwood completed 30 passes out of 44 attempts. Pass completion 68%

Brownhill completed 19 passes out of 32 attempts. Pass completion 59%.

Yet in your opinion Westwood gave the ball away more

[KRBFC]

Why? It’s there black and white.

Westwood has the best pass completion stats out of all our CMs and gets slated for losing the ball.

Brownhill managed to complete 19 passes out of 32 attempts and still manages to get 7-8 ratings from people.

It’s nothing more than posters agendas on certain players.

You've done nothing but whine about Weghorst and Brownhill since they walked through the door?

Do you even watch football? Westwood's hesitation cost us a penalty and all momentum in the first half, if we lost that last night I'd have been furious at Westwood. I don't give a monkeys how many backwards sideways passes he completed.

[karatekid]

To be fair though he's Dutch, and they like it on the floor.

My wife is dutch so i can second that.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You've done nothing but whine about Weghorst and Brownhill since they walked through the door?

Do you even watch football? Westwood's hesitation cost us a penalty and all momentum in the first half, if we lost that last night I'd have been furious at Westwood. I don't give a monkeys how many backwards sideways passes he completed.

Yep I watch the football and two players that are very ineffective.

Your just spouting nonsense now. Westwood is our most progressive midfielder in the entire squad. He literally ranks 51st in the entire division for forward passes. Yes he got caught for penalty I’m not arguing that at all. I’m just saying that it’s strange that Westwood is slated for his passing when he’s our best passer in midfield.

[KRBFC]

They really arnt.

These are the passing stats for last night:

Westwood completed 30 passes out of 44 attempts. Pass completion 68%

Brownhill completed 19 passes out of 32 attempts. Pass completion 59%.

Yet in your opinion Westwood gave the ball away more

What a totally stupid statistic though..... A completed pass on stats isn't always a good pass, nor does that statistic you posted account for difficult of pass or direction of pass. For instance, 30/44 completed backwards 5 yard passes is not impressive, 19/32 with all of them being forward 15 yard passes is a more impressive %.

It doesn't account for area of the pitch ball given away, how difficult was the pass that led to the ball given away and what happened on the pitch following the ball given away. 14 times giving it away (Westwood) on the edge of his own box when the pass was 5 yards is incredibly different from giving it away 13 times (Brownhill) in the opponents half trying to play a killer pass.

Btw with those stats you posted, Westwood actually did give the ball away 1 more time than Brownhill, so factually Westwood gave the ball away more.

[Newcastleclaret93]

What a totally stupid statistic though..... A completed pass on stats isn't always a good pass, nor does that statistic you posted account for difficult of pass or direction of pass. For instance, 30/44 completed backwards 5 yard passes is not impressive, 19/32 with all of them being forward 15 yard passes is a more impressive %.

It doesn't account for area of the pitch ball given away, how difficult was the pass that led to the ball given away and what happened on the pitch following the ball given away. 14 times giving it away (Westwood) on the edge of his own box when the pass was 5 yards is incredibly different from giving it away 13 times (Brownhill) in the opponents half trying to play a killer pass.

Btw with those stats you posted, Westwood actually did give the ball away 1 more time than Brownhill, so factually Westwood gave the ball away more.

Please show me where you get these stats? Or are you now just talking rubbish because as I have already highlighted Westwood plays the most forward passes out of every midfielder in the squad.

It seems you do not understand the concept of averages.

[KRBFC]

Please show me where you get these stats? Or are you now just talking rubbish because as I have already highlighted Westwood plays the most forward passes out of every midfielder in the squad.

It seems you do not understand the concept of averages.

It was an example of how stupid the initial stats you posted were because it gives absolutely zero context like I highlighted. I understand averages but who the hell works off averages when judging a football game.

[Newcastleclaret93]

It was an example of how stupid the initial stats you posted were because it gives absolutely zero context like I highlighted. I understand averages but who the hell works off averages when judging a football game.

Our management team? There whole set up is based upon playing the percentages.

[arise_sir_charge]

And it’s a substitution for Burnley……it’s been an impressive display from player X and the crowd rise as one to salute them……wait hang on, there is now an hushed silence and the crowd take their seats as Newcastle whips open his laptop…….he nods, the lad played well on the spreadsheet as well…..the crowd rise again to applaud.

[KRBFC]

If you want to work off averages, lets use Opta's legit scoring matrix which takes into account absolutely everything (including completed passes).

Over the last 5 games, Westwood's average Opta score is 37, Brownhill is 57.
Over the last 15 games, Westwood's average Opta score is 40, Brownhill is 53.
Over the last 40 games, Westwood's average Opta score is 48, Brownhill is 47.

On last nights game, players get 35 points for starting the game, Westwood scored 12.5 points and Brownhill 43.

Westwood lost possession 23 (0.5 per 1) times and won possession 5 times (0.5 per 1), a net loss of 9 points. A big deficit for giving away a penalty.

[SalisburyClaret]

Blimey - If we’re using Opta scores then we’re looking at the return of Brian Laws

[Newcastleclaret93]

If you want to work off averages, lets use Opta's legit scoring matrix which takes into account absolutely everything (including completed passes).

Over the last 5 games, Westwood's average Opta score is 37, Brownhill is 57.
Over the last 15 games, Westwood's average Opta score is 40, Brownhill is 53.
Over the last 40 games, Westwood's average Opta score is 48, Brownhill is 47.

On last nights game, players get 35 points for starting the game, Westwood scored 12.5 points and Brownhill 43.

Westwood lost possession 23 (0.5 per 1) times and won possession 5 times (0.5 per 1), a net loss of 9 points. A big deficit for giving away a penalty.

We can’t seriously be using An opta scoring matrix as a “stat”

Might as well use BBCs match rating

[KRBFC]

We can’t seriously be using An opta scoring matrix as a “stat”

Might as well use BBCs match rating

Opta is stats, not a stat. It's an accumulation of stats with points distributed for each positive action. Nothing beats the good old eye test though, far superior to any stat. I was just highlighting how stupid the stat you posted above was.

[beeholeclaret]

I know everyone is entitled to an opinion but I personally hate it when we target players sometimes without thought or good reason (more agenda driven ?). WW has shown enough for me to justify his place in the team and 'Ive enjoyed watching him play. He runs unselfishly and creates space whilst also defending well from the front which is something the team has been poor at for a number of seasons now. I sense that he is feeling frustrated at the way the team sets up which must be different to what he has been used to with his previous club. In the 2nd half against Man United, then Brighton and Spurs we played a lot more short passes with midfield linking well with both full backs and WW was heavily involved in neat short passing movements as he dropped deep. He created Jay's goal v United and scored at Brighton. The whole team seemed to relish this way of playing but we seem to have gone back to the long ball which is proving easy for most opponents to anticipate and defend. I dont think it matters who we have up front as Wood, Barnes, Jay and Vydra have struggled for a couple of seasons now. WW seemingly being the latest recipient of the long lofted ball. Last night our two second half goals came from neat passing on the ground which involved 2 or 3 of our players and put Everton's defence under pressure. Not sure what the answer is but our midfield often seems over run and this leads to frequent hurried passes and loss of possession. Cork was instrumental during the successful games mentioned above but he doesnt seem to have energy to last a full 90 minutes nowadays. Much maligned Erik Pieters was also a successful component of the team performances. Just a few of my thoughts. Lets hope we can edge a few more results and build confidence. UTC.

[superdimitri]

Westwood and Stephens are both our best passers of the ball. Haven't seen enough of Stephens to judge him properly but the issue with Westwood in my mind seems to be a lack of vision/creativity.

When he sees a run, or some space, he's brilliant. We almost scored from a great long pass by him in the first half. However, he needs to mix his play more and try to be a bit more creative, the same aimless balls into the channel only work so often.

I think typically Westwood played a lot deeper before he joined us. The lack of us having an attacking midfielder has meant he's pushed further forward and I'm not sure that's really a position suited to him, especially playing alongside Brownhill rather than Cork.

I think we'd play better with Westwood sitting deeper with Brownhill, or with Cork and Brownhill playing.

[Jakubclaret]

Yes but one week that player had an interception % of 78.1 and the week after it was 71.6 but that said his pass completion improved by 8.1% and his XG by 0.36 so maybe that was harsh.

Actually when you watch the games you’ll see that one week the player stopped some possible goals, the week after he may have been at fault for some. One week he passed well, the week after a bit better and he also hit the target with his shots rather than blaze them over the bar!

Stats are over complicating the game. Trust your eyes, they rarely get it wrong.

I do watch most of the games & I know exactly what’s going on at the club, I know that things are very inconsistent we wouldn’t be positioned in the relegation zone for most of the season if everything was hunky dory like some people are trying to make out a cursory glance at the league table tells you that, if people were consistently applying effort we wouldn’t be experiencing mixed performances & results. I agree 100% regarding stats I hardly take notice of them & prefer to use my eyes.

[Shaggy]

CM stats indicate that Newcastleclarer93 has an 84% chance of talking complete nonsense.

[Newcastleclaret93]

CM stats indicate that Newcastleclarer93 has an 84% chance of talking complete nonsense.

I love how our management team uses stats but when people
On a Burnley messageboard do they get slated.

[RVclaret]

I love how our management team uses stats but when people
On a Burnley messageboard do they get slated.

There’s stats but there’s also selective stats. To really use them accurately/fairly you need a full picture. Example - you used to slate Vydra for his lack of goal scoring and back this up with stats such as ‘8 goals in 75 appearances’. This is misleading as it doesn’t account for how many of those appearances were 1. As a sub 2. A sub for less than 5 minutes 3. Game situation in those sub minutes. I’d bet a high % would be 1 and 2 and how does one account for 3. His record of 7 goals in 35 starts (PL) and 3 assists isn’t that bad, a goal contribution every 3.5 games. That’s just one example.

Another is pass completion, again, something I use too but does it tell us the full picture? Example - against Brentford, Westwood actually had his lowest long pass completion in the season so far at 22%, you know, those hopeful chipped balls over the top he does? It kept losing the ball and created a ping pong style match. That was ‘part’ of the reason we played so bad that day. Stats can be very useful, that’s why clubs at the top are now hiring PHD Data scientists and the like. That’s why Matthew Benham has had a lot of success with Brentford.

My overall point is stats are also very easy to manipulate to tell a certain story you want to tell, without looking at the full picture. I think KRBFC has it right above and his Opta stats do look at the ‘bigger picture’ - but then again there is also the naked eye, arguably more important, which comes down to subjectivity but also knowledge of the game.

[CharlieinNewMexico]

Because with my eyes I see passes from Westwood that whilst they reach their man so so in a manner that is either difficult to handle or in the most parts fails to advance the play/game.

I can actually forward evidence on this, because I was thinking it exactly when it happened. 2 or 3 times quite quickly in the 60-70 minute zone, Westwood returned short throws or passes back to a player, which is an absolutely basic core skill we were taught as lads, and he returned them slightly behind the player so they had no alternative but to turn back and play defensively. So In the 70th minute (if you have it recorded or can FF to that point on digital) we had it on the left but it was screaming for a cross field ball to a man out free in acres by the Bob Lord. We saw that, we worked it well inside to Westwood so he could make that pass, he then played a floaty ball out there that TECHNICALLY FULFILLED HIS STATS but, again, stopped our player in his tracks because he had to wait ages for it AND, again, was played half a yard behind him. All momentum was lost. Look it up, minute 70.

This ridiculous stats thing that Newcastle has. It’s like he just plays FootyMan and can’t understand a real game.

[Colburn_Claret]

Westwood and Stephens are both our best passers of the ball. Haven't seen enough of Stephens to judge him properly but the issue with Westwood in my mind seems to be a lack of vision/creativity.

When he sees a run, or some space, he's brilliant. We almost scored from a great long pass by him in the first half. However, he needs to mix his play more and try to be a bit more creative, the same aimless balls into the channel only work so often.

I think typically Westwood played a lot deeper before he joined us. The lack of us having an attacking midfielder has meant he's pushed further forward and I'm not sure that's really a position suited to him, especially playing alongside Brownhill rather than Cork.

I think we'd play better with Westwood sitting deeper with Brownhill, or with Cork and Brownhill playing.

There was a video on you tube, discussing WW strengths and abilities.
It showed that he likes to hang around beyond the far post, that way the defender infront of him can't see him, even if he knows he's there. It gives Wout an advantage as the defender doesn't know when he's going to make his run, or which side of him he's going to go. Of course this requires crosses coming in from out wide, or pulled back from the byline. We did this twice on Wednesday and scored twice. How many times do we lump it to him with his back to goal, and then nobody running past him for a lay off.
As Everton showed, Brighton, Villa last season, when we work the ball wide, and get bodies in the box we score goals. There is always a correct time to hoof it, but we have to play the ball through the lines, down the wings and use Wouts preference for that position beyond the far post, and he will score. We will win, and we will have a chance of survival.

[wilks_bfc]

As it has been said, you can make stats for any agenda you want, but they also need the context behind them

Saying player X has 100% pass completion rate compared to player Y who only had 70% makes X sound like the “better” player, but the passes X made were from 4 passes to a teammate no more than 5 yards away, whereas Y attempted 20 passes of various distances.

[Shaggy]

I love how our management team uses stats but when people
On a Burnley messageboard do they get slated.

I’m just having a wee bit of a laugh with you. If it comes across as slating you then I apologise.

[RVclaret]

As it has been said, you can make stats for any agenda you want, but they also need the context behind them

Saying player X has 100% pass completion rate compared to player Y who only had 70% makes X sound like the “better” player, but the passes X made were from 4 passes to a teammate no more than 5 yards away, whereas Y attempted 20 passes of various distances.

Yeah, interestingly Brownhill’s highest pass completion this season was against Norwich at home (84%), while one of his lowest was the other night just below 60%. Now which game did we create 0 chances in against the leagues worst defence and which did we score 3 in. I actually thought he wasnt good the other night, along with Westwood, but just goes to show how there needs to be context.

[Newcastleclaret93]

There’s stats but there’s also selective stats. To really use them accurately/fairly you need a full picture. Example - you used to slate Vydra for his lack of goal scoring and back this up with stats such as ‘8 goals in 75 appearances’. This is misleading as it doesn’t account for how many of those appearances were 1. As a sub 2. A sub for less than 5 minutes 3. Game situation in those sub minutes. I’d bet a high % would be 1 and 2 and how does one account for 3. His record of 7 goals in 35 starts (PL) and 3 assists isn’t that bad, a goal contribution every 3.5 games. That’s just one example.

Another is pass completion, again, something I use too but does it tell us the full picture? Example - against Brentford, Westwood actually had his lowest long pass completion in the season so far at 22%, you know, those hopeful chipped balls over the top he does? It kept losing the ball and created a ping pong style match. That was ‘part’ of the reason we played so bad that day. Stats can be very useful, that’s why clubs at the top are now hiring PHD Data scientists and the like. That’s why Matthew Benham has had a lot of success with Brentford.

My overall point is stats are also very easy to manipulate to tell a certain story you want to tell, without looking at the full picture. I think KRBFC has it right above and his Opta stats do look at the ‘bigger picture’ - but then again there is also the naked eye, arguably more important, which comes down to subjectivity but also knowledge of the game.

Yes but your going against the original point.

Westwood was given grief for losing the ball too often against Everton. Yet Brownhill had a considerably worse pass completion stat.

[KRBFC]

Yes but your going against the original point.

Westwood was given grief for losing the ball too often against Everton. Yet Brownhill had a considerably worse pass completion stat.

So it doesn't matter where Westwood loses the ball then. Losing the ball isn't just by failing a pass either?

[RVclaret]

Yes but your going against the original point.

Westwood was given grief for losing the ball too often against Everton. Yet Brownhill had a considerably worse pass completion stat.

I think the frustration is that, to the naked eye, our best passing football this season came against Brighton and Spurs. Funnily enough, this also got the best out of Weghorst who was arguably MOM in both games.

Westwood, by instruction I imagine, plays very ‘rushed’ and direct - looking for the clipped ball over the top a lot. This used to work, in fact, he received two player of the year awards on the spin, so people clearly rated him highly. Perhaps it was because there was movement in behind with Wood. But now it just adds to a general lack of composure in our play. Also, Brownhill notably doesn’t play as far forward with Westwood as he had been with Cork. Again, this is all naked eye rather than looking at specific stats.

Our midfield received poor ratings across the board again against Everton, despite the win, and despite playing against a makeshift midfield of Holgate Iwobi and Doucore. I’d still like to see Cork and Brownhill together for Norwich.

[ClaretAL]

There is no way Dyche will change a wining side.

[RVclaret]

There is no way Dyche will change a wining side.

I'd expect Lowton will be the only change. But there is an argument for freshening a few other spots up, seen as though Norwich did not play midweek. Could be McNeil for Lennon (who looked spent) and Cork for Westwood for midfield freshness. But those changes aren't 'Dyche' and it'll just be Lowton.

[CoolClaret]

Westwood drops deeper to receive the ball and doesn’t drive up the pitch which in turn creates a bigger gap between midfield and attack (causing our forwards to be isolated) resulting in longer balls to get to them and less probable chance that it comes off - our entire play is effected.

I’d like to see how many of westwoods passes completed are over 5 yards going forwards - seems most of them are backwards or sideways with the patented ‘Grezza Hoofs’ around the corner his preferred method of getting the ball forward.

He doesn’t pick the ball and drive and doesn’t play through the lines to open a team up - cork will take the ball on a short carry and look to play through the lines a hell of a lot more.

City are the absolute masters of that, get past one person and drive into space and you’ve just opened an entire team up - they then use overloads to get the ball into the box.

Brownhill gives the ball away cheaply a lot and needs to be better there - but to be fair to him he covers insane distances very quickly - he’s our most dynamic/athletic one out of the lot of them and for that reason has to play for me.

Then it comes to who plays in the other spot - for me it’s Cork and it’s a no brainer, much better on the ball and is a great reader of the game, sits in well and plays simple progressive 5-10 yard passes better than the other two.

Yes he isn’t the athlete he once was but that’s just how it is

[gawthorpe_view]

Back to the OP, I've watched the highlights several times and am struck by Weghorst's lack of any sort of celebration of our second goal.
He makes the run to the near post, indicating with downward pointing hands where he wants the ball played.
When Jay scores from a ball played in behind him he looks gutted.

[milkcrate_mosh]

I’d like to see how many of westwoods passes completed are over 5 yards going forwards - seems most of them are backwards or sideways with the patented ‘Grezza Hoofs’ around the corner his preferred method of getting the ball forward.

He doesn’t pick the ball and drive and doesn’t play through the lines to open a team up - cork will take the ball on a short carry and look to play through the lines a hell of a lot more.

...


Then it comes to who plays in the other spot - for me it’s Cork and it’s a no brainer, much better on the ball and is a great reader of the game, sits in well and plays simple progressive 5-10 yard passes better than the other two.

Yes he isn’t the athlete he once was but that’s just how it is

I think one of the issues with people saying they only use the "eye test" is they will often follow this with what sound like objective claims. Thought I'd look up the stats on forward passes, through balls, progressive carries based on the above. Stats all taken from here definitions for all the stats are all clearly explained in this link.


Jack Cork completes on average 1.4 "progressive passes" a game, by contrast Westwood completes the most in the entire team with 4.15. He also completes passes into the penalty area and the opponents third at a much higher rate. Jack Cork hasn't completed a single through ball all season, Westwood has 3.

Westwood's pass accuracy for short (5-15 yards) and medium (15-30 yards) is also significantly higher than Corks (>10%). His Long passes however are significantly worse and he plays a lot more of them a game, his long passes are also a lot likely to be high balls as well.

Westwood carries the ball towards the goal by more yards in 90 minutes than Cork does and is dispossessed less often. Cork however attempts more dribbles and is more successful at them when he does attempt them.

Westwood plays a lot more passes and a lot more passes that are higher risk of interception or losing possession. He tends to be much more involved in the buildup to our chances too which is often measured as "shot creating actions". He's involved in 4x as many shot creating actions as Cork, Cork has been recorded as being involved in a single "goal creating action".



I think that when we're playing badly Westwood is always going to look poor because it's likely to mean his higher risk way of playing hasn't worked out. But I think looking at the numbers helps to see why he continues to play. If you're a low scoring team dropping the CM that is most likely to create chances and be involved in goals(by some distance) is always a difficult decision.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I think one of the issues with people saying they only use the "eye test" is they will often follow this with what sound like objective claims. Thought I'd look up the stats on forward passes, through balls, progressive carries based on the above. Stats all taken from here definitions for all the stats are all clearly explained in this link.


Jack Cork completes on average 1.4 "progressive passes" a game, by contrast Westwood completes the most in the entire team with 4.15. He also completes passes into the penalty area and the opponents third at a much higher rate. Jack Cork hasn't completed a single through ball all season, Westwood has 3.

Westwood's pass accuracy for short (5-15 yards) and medium (15-30 yards) is also significantly higher than Corks (>10%). His Long passes however are significantly worse and he plays a lot more of them a game, his long passes are also a lot likely to be high balls as well.

Westwood carries the ball towards the goal by more yards in 90 minutes than Cork does and is dispossessed less often. Cork however attempts more dribbles and is more successful at them when he does attempt them.

Westwood plays a lot more passes and a lot more passes that are higher risk of interception or losing possession. He tends to be much more involved in the buildup to our chances too which is often measured as "shot creating actions". He's involved in 4x as many shot creating actions as Cork, Cork has been recorded as being involved in a single "goal creating action".



I think that when we're playing badly Westwood is always going to look poor because it's likely to mean his higher risk way of playing hasn't worked out. But I think looking at the numbers helps to see why he continues to play. If you're a low scoring team dropping the CM that is most likely to create chances and be involved in goals(by some distance) is always a difficult decision.

Watch out milk crate they will start calling you out for using logic and stats to back an argument.

[RVclaret]

Westwood plays a lot more passes and a lot more passes that are higher risk of interception or losing possession. He tends to be much more involved in the buildup to our chances too which is often measured as "shot creating actions". He's involved in 4x as many shot creating actions as Cork, Cork has been recorded as being involved in a single "goal creating action".

I think that when we're playing badly Westwood is always going to look poor because it's likely to mean his higher risk way of playing hasn't worked out. But I think looking at the numbers helps to see why he continues to play. If you're a low scoring team dropping the CM that is most likely to create chances and be involved in goals(by some distance) is always a difficult decision.

Some good points but I’d argue these stats are slightly skewed, seen as though he takes every set piece aside from corners on the right. A centre half winning a header from a set piece which aimlessly sails wide would be considered a ‘chance’. Again, Cork and Brownhill started together against Brighton and Spurs, we played our best passing football, created chances, scored goals and generally had control in midfield. Since then, we’ve lost the midfield battle in every single game.

[milkcrate_mosh]

Even if you exclude his shot creating actions from dead balls it's still over twice that of Jack Cork so don't think that fully explains the discrepancy.