Russia Invades

[JarrowClaret]

I have seen a few posts about Ukrainian soldiers committing war crimes on here this definitely shouldn’t be forgot about or ignored as it is clear it is happening. Nothing Can excuse war crimes and all should be investigated, but I think we need to understand a bit before condemning them though. Firstly my friend who is fighting out there reported he had treated every Russian prisoner his squad had taken up to now fairly and appropriately. They have all seen the scenes in Bucha and he was concerned about keeping them under control now. On top of that please see his latest report:

“We came across 2 kids today, aged 7 & 8, they had walked from the outskirts of **** by themselves, almost 15km, and they were holding hands, wearing torn & dishevelled garments, but they had escaped! I approached them and saw they were holding a severed hand - it was all that was left of their Mother. F******* fuming buddy, so angry, and that could have been my son and his sister…f******* heartbroken”

The majority are young men seeing things like the above all too often it is human nature that some stuff will happen.

[ecc]

I think it best for this thread not to discuss the French elections. I don't want this crucial thread being pulled.

MODERATOR - As long as posters act like grown ups, I see no issue mentioning current affairs - properly sourced (of course).

[elwaclaret]

I have seen a few posts about Ukrainian soldiers committing war crimes on here this definitely shouldn’t be forgot about or ignored as it is clear it is happening. Nothing Can excuse war crimes and all should be investigated, but I think we need to understand a bit before condemning them though. Firstly my friend who is fighting out there reported he had treated every Russian prisoner his squad had taken up to now fairly and appropriately. They have all seen the scenes in Bucha and he was concerned about keeping them under control now. On top of that please see his latest report:

“We came across 2 kids today, aged 7 & 8, they had walked from the outskirts of **** by themselves, almost 15km, and they were holding hands, wearing torn & dishevelled garments, but they had escaped! I approached them and saw they were holding a severed hand - it was all that was left of their Mother. F******* fuming buddy, so angry, and that could have been my son and his sister…f******* heartbroken”

The majority are young men seeing things like the above all too often it is human nature that some stuff will happen.

It is human nature, given the level of abuse they have been witnessing. Some posters sadly cannot differentiate between SYSTEMATIC abuse and isolated offences. While both need fully addressing once this is over, there is no comparison in Ukrainian abuses and Russian. But as I said some folk just seem to perversely side with the aggressor, like this was some sort of sporting encounter.

[elwaclaret]

I think it best for this thread not to discuss the French elections. I don't want this crucial thread being pulled.

The French election is very much part of the wider story of the War, its a war of Nationalism over Democracy at a time when one of Europes central pillars is threatening to go NATIONALIST. The bright spot is France (much like Britain) rarely vote as polls suggest.

[elwaclaret]

BBC - Banned racing driver son of Putin supporting Oligarch thinks sanctions against his country are ‘cancel culture’ (poor lad is not aloud to exploit opportunities in the West because everyone is picking on his uncle Putin)

https://twitter.com/bbcworld/status/151 ... R1h9bNeyMw

[elwaclaret]

WELL THEY DID IT - Russia suspended from the U. N. Human Rights Council, BBC BREAKING NEWS

https://twitter.com/bbcbreaking/status/ ... R1h9bNeyMw

[elwaclaret]

NEW YORK TIMES - On the significance of the UN Human Rights vote; it has only happened once since the UN was set up after WW2, and that was Libya in 2011

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1512 ... R1h9bNeyMw

[elwaclaret]

REUTERS - Lukashenko, there must not be any peace deal behind Belarus’s backs (clearly he sees his head could be left in the noose by his ‘allies’)

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1512 ... R1h9bNeyMw

[Hipper]

REUTERS: Gas flows from Russia to Europe slowing as customers demand non-Russian supplies

https://twitter.com/reuters/status/1512 ... R1h9bNeyMw

I'm not sure if this has any significance.

I understand gas flows in both directions at various times and that is perfectly normal.

[Hipper]

And here is another WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT
A Russian soldier lays on the road injured and shaking, and gets shot.


https://twitter.com/pip525/status/15112 ... 75460?s=21

One of those dead Russians has his hands tied behind his back.

[elwaclaret]

One of those dead Russians has his hands tied behind his back.

Did you look not just at the link but at who was behind the twitter post - give you a clue IT’S A RUSSIAN COMMUNIST propaganda account.

[Hipper]

Did you look not just at the link but at who was behind the twitter post - give you a clue IT’S A RUSSIAN COMMUNIST propaganda account.

No I didn't but I see what you mean.

No-one had mentioned this before, after it was posted.

I'm not a Twitter person, just follow the links posted on here.

[elwaclaret]

No I didn't but I see what you mean.

No-one had mentioned this before, after it was posted.

I'm not a Twitter person, just follow the links posted on here.

Fully understand, NOT having a go. It is what posters often miss and why you will see various researchers and even the Moderator call for ‘Source’ so often… it really is just as important as what is being said, more often than not.

[Hipper]

Fully understand, NOT having a go. It is what posters often miss and why you will see various researchers and even the Moderator call for ‘Source’ so often… it really is just as important as what is being said, more often than not.

I appreciate that.

Do you think the post by Jos should be reported to the Mods.?

[elwaclaret]

I appreciate that.

Do you think the post by Jos should be reported to the Mods.?

Sure the mod has his eye on where it goes- closing things down leads certain posters to scream ‘biased/ one sided - far better to find the source and show why the source is flawed… so long as posters continue to act as grown ups.

[LeadBelly]

The French election is very much part of the wider story of the War, its a war of Nationalism over Democracy at a time when one of Europes central pillars is threatening to go NATIONALIST. The bright spot is France (much like Britain) rarely vote as polls suggest.

Do you think a democratic election is against democracy if the result is looking like it may throw up a winner that you dont like?

In the Ukraine war arent both sides Nationalist? (Albeit one is much more of a democracy, one pretty much an authoritarian/ dictatorship).

[Aclaret]

WELL THEY DID IT - Russia suspended from the U. N. Human Rights Council, BBC BREAKING NEWS

https://twitter.com/bbcbreaking/status/ ... R1h9bNeyMw

What will this mean to Russia and will they care.
I'm not sure what being on this council achieves.
That's a genuine question by the way, I don't really understand it all.

[Lowbankclaret]

And here is another WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT
A Russian soldier lays on the road injured and shaking, and gets shot.


https://twitter.com/pip525/status/15112 ... 75460?s=21

I did watch, that was the video I saw but heavily pixelated so you could not see where he was bleeding from.
That’s is a war crime, he was bleeding heavily but perhaps not fatally. Looks like he could have survived if treated.

[Elbarad]

Probably my American bias showing here but... I'm of the firm opinion a strongly worded letter from the UN reprimanding Putin won't carry much weight with him.

The UN has uses for protecting the less developed world, but if someone like Putin gets the bit between their teeth all of the hand wringing at the UN isn't worth anything. What are they going to do, send their army into Ukraine?

[Lowbankclaret]

I have seen a few posts about Ukrainian soldiers committing war crimes on here this definitely shouldn’t be forgot about or ignored as it is clear it is happening. Nothing Can excuse war crimes and all should be investigated, but I think we need to understand a bit before condemning them though. Firstly my friend who is fighting out there reported he had treated every Russian prisoner his squad had taken up to now fairly and appropriately. They have all seen the scenes in Bucha and he was concerned about keeping them under control now. On top of that please see his latest report:

“We came across 2 kids today, aged 7 & 8, they had walked from the outskirts of **** by themselves, almost 15km, and they were holding hands, wearing torn & dishevelled garments, but they had escaped! I approached them and saw they were holding a severed hand - it was all that was left of their Mother. F******* fuming buddy, so angry, and that could have been my son and his sister…f******* heartbroken”

The majority are young men seeing things like the above all too often it is human nature that some stuff will happen.

Tried to read this to my missus but broke down half way through, I have no more words to say.

[jos]

I did watch, that was the video I saw but heavily pixelated so you could not see where he was bleeding from.
That’s is a war crime, he was bleeding heavily but perhaps not fatally. Looks like he could have survived if treated.

The link I posted regrettably was shared by a Russian sympathiser, although I had seen it elsewhere also.
I’ll try and make sure I only share links from the Ukraine perspective in future.

On another topic,

British Harpoon anti-ship missiles have been delivered to Odesa!

https://twitter.com/anders_aslund/statu ... 23396?s=21

[HitchinClaret]

And here is another WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT
A Russian soldier lays on the road injured and shaking, and gets shot.


https://twitter.com/pip525/status/15112 ... 75460?s=21

Hi Jos
I think you are following some pretty dodgy media, please stay away from these sites. You are quoting an obvious Russian backed account that at present has about 20 followers, worries me that you are at the front of the queue to share this rubbish?
Thanks

[elwaclaret]

Do you think a democratic election is against democracy if the result is looking like it may throw up a winner that you dont like?

In the Ukraine war arent both sides Nationalist? (Albeit one is much more of a democracy, one pretty much an authoritarian/ dictatorship).

It i not a debate I want to head into - my sources are sound and make the argument I summarise.

[jos]

Hi Jos
I think you are following some pretty dodgy media, please stay away from these sites. You are quoting an obvious Russian backed account that at present has about 20 followers, worries me that you are at the front of the queue to share this rubbish?
Thanks

Hi HC, Please see my post just above yours. Where I apologise.

I can assure you I have posted mostly from verifiable sources.

[Lowbankclaret]

The link I posted regrettably was shared by a Russian sympathiser, although I had seen it elsewhere also.
I’ll try and make sure I only share links from the Ukraine perspective in future.

On another topic,

British Harpoon anti-ship missiles have been delivered to Odesa!

https://twitter.com/anders_aslund/statu ... 23396?s=21

I read the comments after, happens to the best of us.

Just to add Harger clough factory in Burnley used to make parts for the Harpoon missile, worked on a few myself back in the day.

Also used to weld cruise missiles for the Americans.
Probably little known facts.

I remember a presentation being given by the Yanks saying the cruise missiles could fly down streets and hit a target a meter square. We thought they were mad, but they obviously had GPS in the 80’s.

[elwaclaret]

NEXTA: Nobel Prize winning Russian journalist Dmitry Muratov was attacked and doused in red oil paint and acetone on a train for being outspoken against the war.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/151 ... IwFl-dwF-A

[JarrowClaret]

Tried to read this to my missus but broke down half way through, I have no more words to say.

Sorry Lowbank I wasn’t going to post it but I felt it was worth it just to point out some of the **** these kids are going through the Soldiers fighting and actually the children as well.

Horrible, horrible situation

[jos]

NEXTA: Nobel Prize winning Russian journalist Dmitry Muratov was attacked and doused in red oil paint and acetone on a train for being outspoken against the war.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/151 ... IwFl-dwF-A

And from looking at his attire he must have been on an overnight train, so possibly attacked whilst sleeping.

[elwaclaret]

What will this mean to Russia and will they care.
I'm not sure what being on this council achieves.
That's a genuine question by the way, I don't really understand it all.

Sorry Aclaret, I didn’t see your post (and it wasn’t flagged once I re-visited the thread.

The main thing is the Russian Veto that stop any form of action over Human Rights abuses. The Veto (thanks for WW2) meant Russia could stop any action - on their own. That has gone. The UN is full of diplomats, and so every road is looked at - but ultimately after all other options are gone through, the UN can ultimately use a UN multinational force to prevent further human right violations. But politically it takes away Russia’s ability to show soundbites of their delegates spouting lies to the UN, that no one but the viewers at home in Russia believe for a second, under the guise of the truth.

[elwaclaret]

Kyiv Independent - Belarus is to attempt to pay its bills only in Belarus Ruble, this will likely lead to World bank defaults.

https://twitter.com/kyivindependent/sta ... RLDciAm3iQ

[Aclaret]

Thanks for the explanation elwaclaret

[elwaclaret]

BRIAN WILLIAMS - looks at Russia’s attitudes to war.

https://twitter.com/briw74/status/15121 ... vRAjFJyg4g

‘Sacking towns’ has always been an issue for armies - Sir John Churchill (Duke of Marlborough) was the first CNC to punish it as he traversed Europe on the way to Blenheim (1704) , punishment was death.

[Lowbankclaret]

Sorry Lowbank I wasn’t going to post it but I felt it was worth it just to point out some of the **** these kids are going through the Soldiers fighting and actually the children as well.

Horrible, horrible situation

Honestly its ok, you see the pictures and the tanks blowing up it and it all becomes desensitised. Your post just made it real again. No need to apologise. We need to remember this is real and horrible.

[elwaclaret]

ROB LEE: Russia losses, using only Russian sources, update.

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1500 ... idkkx9YnAQ

[fatboy47]

I remember a presentation being given by the Yanks saying the cruise missiles could fly down streets and hit a target a meter square. We thought they were mad, but they obviously had GPS in the 80’s.

There was certainly plenty of hype around the accuracy or otherwise of cruise missiles in the 80s. One of the yank claims ran that..

"" we could fly one in through Brezhnev's bedroom window""

Time and again in later years, in conflict, these claims were shown to be little more than hot air...

[ecc]

I think it best for this thread not to discuss the French elections. I don't want this crucial thread being pulled.

MODERATOR - As long as posters act like grown ups, I see no issue mentioning current affairs - properly sourced (of course).

FAO Moderator.

Fair play.

BTW Many thanks to you and all the moderators for carryoing out a very tough task.

[jos]

Hi Jos
, worries me that you are at the front of the queue to share this rubbish?
Thanks

I take issue with this statement though. The whole bloody war is rubbish and a sad state of affairs that we have to endure from the madmen running Russia, However, Folk need to open their eyes and recognise that not all allies (the good guys) wear white hats.

[JarrowClaret]

Why does it matter if the source is Russian, the video is clear as day.

Hiya KR for me you missed The optimum word “propaganda” for me at least there is nothing wrong with links from Russians if they don’t follow the normal state way of informing us of stuff. I accept the most of the links on here are some form of propaganda though.

[JarrowClaret]

Absolutely this, everything pro Russian which shows Ukraine in a bad light is just written off as propaganda, while everything Ukraine puts out is 100% believable proof. Some of the videos are clear as day, I don't care who tweets them, the proof is in the pudding.

I don’t think that is right the problem is so much that comes out of Russia is propaganda it is hard to work out what is right and what is wrong. For me nothing is clear as day they appear to be I agree but you have no idea if they are genuine please remember you are seeing it because someone wants you to see it.

I don’t think anyone is dismissing Ukrainian war crimes as propaganda they are real and are happening and will need to be investigated. Interestingly the Ukrainians have said they will investigate war crimes what have the Russians said? Anyway to end this there is no excuse for carrying out illegal orders or war crimes that said you just need to look at Bucha or my post earlier tonight on what my friend found to understand a little of why there are Ukrainian war crimes though.

[KRBFC]

I don’t think that is right the problem is so much that comes out of Russia is propaganda it is hard to work out what is right and what is wrong. For me nothing is clear as day they appear to be I agree but you have no idea if they are genuine please remember you are seeing it because someone wants you to see it.

I don’t think anyone is dismissing Ukrainian war crimes as propaganda they are real and are happening and will need to be investigated. Interestingly the Ukrainians have said they will investigate war crimes what have the Russians said? Anyway to end this there is no excuse for carrying out illegal orders or war crimes that said you just need to look at Bucha or my post earlier tonight on what my friend found to understand a little of why there are Ukrainian war crimes though.

I don't blame the Ukrainians for anything, it's all retaliation, including the war crimes which Russians committed first on Ukrainian land. After all, the Russians shouldn't be there in the first place.

[Lowbankclaret]

The Russians are thick, I was watching the interview o n Sky and ambassador was even laughing when he gave some of his answers. Told me even he didn’t believe what he was saying..

But they will not the mistakes of Bucha again, they know they got found out with the Sat images.

So now they will burn all civilians killed in mobile crems.

Now I ask where did that happen before.

[Loyalclaret]

Articke on social media and propaganda
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/ ... ta-reports

[bfcjg]

https://www.ft.com/content/edd298ef-7e1 ... f4295c3240
Perhaps Russian big business are breaking ranks ?

[Hipper]

I take issue with this statement though. The whole bloody war is rubbish and a sad state of affairs that we have to endure from the madmen running Russia, However, Folk need to open their eyes and recognise that not all allies (the good guys) wear white hats.

Earlier I was responding to elwaclarets point about checking the Twitter source and assumed, wrongly I now think, that he was intimating that the video itself was dubious.

I have no problem with the video if it is genuine and therefore no issue with who posts it.

The BBC did some research on the film:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/61025388

War is indeed horrible with bad deeds done by all sides, and not filled with the clinical operations we might imagine. I doubt there's been a war where that wasn't the case.

[bfcjg]

https://www.ft.com/content/edd298ef-7e1 ... f4295c3240
Perhaps Russian big business are breaking ranks ?

Bit more detail from Reuters with no fire wall.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/ch ... 022-04-08/

[elwaclaret]

REUTERS: Drone follows Russian fleeing Ukraine forward party back to his unit and then sends co-ordinates for a strike

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1512 ... AEnGXunV6g

[elwaclaret]

REUTERS: British intelligence suggesting Russia is heading into the worst recession since the fall of Soviet Iron Curtain.

https://twitter.com/reutersuk/status/15 ... AEnGXunV6g

[elwaclaret]

NEXTA: Russian target busy train station full of civilians in Kramatorsk.

https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/151 ... AEnGXunV6g

(The EU are pushing for more sanctions as a result of this appalling strike)

[elwaclaret]

NEW YORK TIMES: On the train station attack

https://twitter.com/nytimes/status/1512 ... AEnGXunV6g

[Lowbankclaret]

https://www.ft.com/content/edd298ef-7e1 ... f4295c3240
Perhaps Russian big business are breaking ranks ?

I was talking to some friend who still work in Aerospace, they were saying that the aero industry will run out of Aluminium in October and Titanium by xmas.