Weghorst

[Conroy92]

And in that simplicity, how do you provide the relevant defensive shape? That style is all well and good if you've got better players than the opposition. It's why the team scored so many goals when winning the championship and going 23 unbeaten. When you don't have better players, you surely have to be more pragmatic.

If he played up top, on his own, he would be so isolated it's untrue, and we'd have zero territory. There's not masses of evidence of him holding the ball up when played into feet for the necessary time for others to get around and support him.

The problem is Dande, you look at the team sheets from Sunday and personally on paper I feel we did have a stronger side with better players. Yet we still couldn't manage it.

Every manager has there strengths and weaknesses. Dyche came in and built up the way we defend for a number of years, he inherited a side that could play football but couldn't defend. Roll on ten years and we now have a side who can't play football but can defend. We now need to find a manager who can build on the framework Dyche has put into place. It's just football unfortunately.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Very hard to see WW sticking around for the Championship if we aren’t playing to his strengths now.

Things like that could be decisive - look at Mitrovic with Fulham. A couple of players too good for that level and we blast back up. Personally I’d try and keep Vydra too and promise him he would start every week. Both would get 20+ in the level below.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Very hard to see WW sticking around for the Championship if we aren’t playing to his strengths now.

Things like that could be decisive - look at Mitrovic with Fulham. A couple of players too good for that level and we blast back up. Personally I’d try and keep Vydra too and promise him he would start every week. Both would get 20+ in the level below.

Honestly who’s buying Weghorst? High wages, relatively high fee for a then 30 year old.

Mitrovic is considerably better than Weghorst. As for Vydra he’s only scored over 20 goals once in his career and that was for Derby. The season before in the championship he scored 5 goals in 33 games.

[beddie]

I honestly can’t believe being the height he is how he struggles to get off the ground, he wins very little in the air, add to that he’s little pace, I honestly think he contributes very little. After 20 mins yesterday Vydra should have replaced him. Panic buy I’m afraid. I’m still in the Dyche camp, I think a lot of our problems are not of his making.

[BabylonClaret]

Honestly who’s buying Weghorst? High wages, relatively high fee for a then 30 year old.

Mitrovic is considerably better than Weghorst. As for Vydra he’s only scored over 20 goals once in his career and that was for Derby. The season before in the championship he scored 5 goals in 33 games.

This.

Poor recruitment for both really and we've tried to cut our cloth as best we can but ultimately there's only so much you can manage .

FWIW I think dande is spot on with the framework etc. Losing Wood was a massive blow - he knows the approach, has stre gtg and was crucial to getting us territory up the pitch.

[Caballo]

Mitrovic is considerably better than Weghorst.

Based on what, his prolific goal tally in the 20/21 season.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Based on what, his prolific goal tally in the 20/21 season.

He has 24 goals across 103 apps in the prem.

Roughly a 1-4 goal record in the premiership. Even his very worst season in the prem is 1-8, based on minutes per goal in his worst season it’s still 1-4.

Weghorst currently sits at 1-12.

[dandeclaret]

He has 24 goals across 103 apps in the prem.

Roughly a 1-4 goal record in the premiership. Even his very worst season in the prem is 1-8, based on minutes per goal in his worst season it’s still 1-4.

Weghorst currently sits at 1-12.

You surely understand, being the stats expert, the risk of variance when assessing a 12 game cycle, with a 103 game cycle. What level of confidence are you placing in these stats relfecting reality long term?

Edit - to just highlight, it's another example of a single stat being used to try and describe a much more complex problem.

[Newcastleclaret93]

You surely understand, being the stats expert, the risk of variance when assessing a 12 game cycle, with a 103 game cycle. What level of confidence are you placing in these stats relfecting reality long term?

Edit - to just highlight, it's another example of a single stat being used to try and describe a much more complex problem.

Ok I will use the uptheclarets approved method.

“Using my eye” Mitrovic is a considerably better striker

[Rileybobs]

Surprised he’s being written off to be honest. He’s come into a side devoid of creativity and a group of players who are all struggling for goals - Maxwel being a slight exception, and most of his goals have been individual efforts.

Dyche’s comments about him having learned how to play for the team and now needs to get back to playing for himself are interesting. It’s always going to be a big change to move to a new country and play in a new league, particularly for a struggling team and mid-season.

I think he’s got a lot to offer and if/when we go down I think he has the potential to be a huge threat. Clearly the biggest issue is getting the best out of him, because we’re certainly not playing to his strengths. In fact, we don’t play to the strengths of any of our best offensive players.

[dandeclaret]

Ok I will use the uptheclarets approved method.

“Using my eye” Mitrovic is a considerably better striker

Or you could highlight that strikers are suited to different levels, and there's a long history of strikers who are too good for the championship, but fall short of being so prolific in the premier league, such as Andy GRay, Matej Vydra, Mitrovic, Pukki etc etc. Similar, you can have players more suited to continental leagues, particularly the Dutch and German leagues, who struggle in the Premier League, players such as Kezman, Werner, Alfonso, but are highly valuable assets back in their leagues, and there's likely to be a buyer for them, given their records.

It's also ok to say that 12 games is early to make an assessment, but gut feel is that he's short. Making absolute certain statements, and trying to back it up with longer term single stats, doesn't mark you out as somebody who effectively uses stats, but falls into the trap of confirmation bias, using numbers in an unbalanced way to support your view.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Or you could highlight that strikers are suited to different levels, and there's a long history of strikers who are too good for the championship, but fall short of being so prolific in the premier league, such as Andy GRay, Matej Vydra, Mitrovic, Pukki etc etc. Similar, you can have players more suited to continental leagues, particularly the Dutch and German leagues, who struggle in the Premier League, players such as Kezman, Werner, Alfonso, but are highly valuable assets back in their leagues, and there's likely to be a buyer for them, given their records.

It's also ok to say that 12 games is early to make an assessment, but gut feel is that he's short. Making absolute certain statements, and trying to back it up with longer term single stats, doesn't mark you out as somebody who effectively uses stats, but falls into the trap of confirmation bias, using numbers in an unbalanced way to support your view.

It’s not unbalanced though? It’s such a short time frame to take stats from to support an argument. For example you could highlight that against Brentford, Watford, Leeds and Norwich he managed a total of 3 shots. None of them on target. But then people would argue it’s just a dip in form.

I said pretty much after his first game that he was going to struggle in this league. I have yet to see anything to argue differently. If you have any stats to argue against my point go for it.

In my opinion Mitrovic is considerably better at scoring and holding up the ball.

I think your argument is interesting one, because I don’t think anyone on this board would rate him at all if it wasn’t for the bundesliga goal scoring stats.

[Quicknick]

Very hard to see WW sticking around for the Championship if we aren’t playing to his strengths now.

Things like that could be decisive - look at Mitrovic with Fulham. A couple of players too good for that level and we blast back up. Personally I’d try and keep Vydra too and promise him he would start every week. Both would get 20+ in the level below.

You can't promise a player will start every week, but I agree that Weghorst and Vydra would make a good partnership in the Championship.

[dandeclaret]

It’s not unbalanced though? It’s such a short time frame to take stats from to support an argument. For example you could highlight that against Brentford, Watford, Leeds and Norwich he managed a total of 3 shots. None of them on target. But then people would argue it’s just a dip in form.

I said pretty much after his first game that he was going to struggle in this league. I have yet to see anything to argue differently. If you have any stats to argue against my point go for it.

In my opinion Mitrovic is considerably better at scoring and holding up the ball.

I think your argument is interesting one, because I don’t think anyone on this board would rate him at all if it wasn’t for the bundesliga goal scoring stats.

So if it wasn't for the most impressive part of his career, nobody would rate him? It's like saying if Andy Murray was only judged on his clay form, he wouldn't be a very good tennis player.

I think I am being trolled here, and I've fallen hook line and sinker for it. You got me.

[RVclaret]

You can't promise a player will start every week, but I agree that Weghorst and Vydra would make a good partnership in the Championship.

Zero chance Vydra will stay after the way Dyche has treat him during his time here. There was a Boden article recently suggesting he has a lot of interest in England and overseas. He'll be off.

[Newcastleclaret93]

So if it wasn't for the most impressive part of his career, nobody would rate him? It's like saying if Andy Murray was only judged on his clay form, he wouldn't be a very good tennis player.

I think I am being trolled here, and I've fallen hook line and sinker for it. You got me.

No I think you have misunderstood. reading it back it’s not the clearest.

I am saying that your argument about using one of stats is interesting. Because the only reason anyone thinks Weghorst is remotely decent is due to his scoring stats in the bundesliga. Take that out of it and base it purely on what you are seeing and he would be getting slated. Yet when I base my opinion on one of stats I get slated.

I have said it a few times on rating threads, if wood had put performances like that in he would be getting slammed.

[Quicknick]

Of course Weghorst is a good player. He isn't been used to his strengths. Bad strikers don't get capped by Holland.

[superdimitri]

I've been saying we should switch to 4-2-3-1 for a while but don't know if we have the quality capable of it. If we'd signed Orsic and a CM I think we would have made the switch, maybe even just with Orsic.
Problem is as it is you're either pushing the wide men very forward exposing whoever of Cork/Brownhill/Westwood you pick, sitting them deeper and effectively just playing 4-4-1-1 negating the purpose, or having to bench an attacking option and put one of the 3 CMs in the hole instead of McNeil/Corner/Jay/Vydra, again negating the purpose.
We are genuinely 1-2 players short of being able to do it without completely exposing our central midfield even more and being overrun in the channels between them and any advanced wingers.

I think Cork, Stephens and Westwood would all be suited to a strict holding midfield role but what they lack compared to better players in that position is pace. I'm not sure they'd be able to protect the full backs and instead as you say we'll end up with the wide forwards tracking back instead.

We need at least one industrial defensive midfielder and we need another attacking midfielder. Two if McNeil instead plays on the wing.

We don't have the squad depth to play that way but I do wonder how McNeil as an attacking midfielder would do with Weghorst.

At the moment we have too many strikers really to play that way. 4 strikers in the squad and you pretty much have to play with two.

[warksclaret]

This is not the same player who played v United and Brighton. Forget service and formations, something has happened to his motivation. He has stopped the pressing and challenging and looking for the ball which used to motivate the rest. Now its very much when will Dyche sub him

[RVclaret]

This is not the same player who played v United and Brighton. Forget service and formations, something has happened to his motivation. He has stopped the pressing and challenging and looking for the ball which used to motivate the rest. Now its very much when will Dyche sub him

Tend to agree with this. He seemed to be playing with real fire in his belly and his determination was rubbing off on the rest of the team. It felt like he’d finally arrived in the PL and was so keen on staying here and doing ‘whatever it takes’ to keep us up. I actually described him post Spurs as the perfect Dyche striker - tall, linking play, presence up front but most of all his incredible work rate / desire id been seeing. Not sure what’s happened since then. He’s scored goals all his career so maybe become frustrated at the lack of them / chances he’s been having.

[elwaclaret]

Tend to agree with this. He seemed to be playing with real fire in his belly and his determination was rubbing off on the rest of the team. It felt like he’d finally arrived in the PL and was so keen on staying here and doing ‘whatever it takes’ to keep us up. I actually described him post Spurs as the perfect Dyche striker - tall, linking play, presence up front but most of all his incredible work rate / desire id been seeing. Not sure what’s happened since then. He’s scored goals all his career so maybe become frustrated at the lack of them / chances he’s been having.

I think he is missing Pieters being on the pitch.

[RVclaret]

I think he is missing Pieters being on the pitch.

Possibly Pieters and Cork. They are both a lot more composed in possession than Taylor/Westwood and more capable of playing passes through the lines.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Possibly Pieters and Cork. They are both a lot more composed in possession than Taylor/Westwood and more capable of playing passes through the lines.

I think he is missing a completely different set up. He is used to players being in and around him.

That is just never ever going to happen with us.

[Vegas Claret]

he looks around the midfield and thinks what the **** - it's demotivating for those watching, must be awful to play in. Even Jay has turned around and shouted at those behind him at least once in the last few games or so, the service is non existent. You could put Harry Kane up top and it wouldn't make much difference

[Conroy92]

he looks around the midfield and thinks what the **** - it's demotivating for those watching, must be awful to play in. Even Jay has turned around and shouted at those behind him at least once in the last few games or so, the service is non existent. You could put Harry Kane up top and it wouldn't make much difference

Part of me wonders if Dyche's comments about him concentrating on his own game are due to him questioning the play around him.

[Vegas Claret]

Part of me wonders if Dyche's comments about him concentrating on his own game are due to him questioning the play around him.

yeah good point

[Elizabeth]

He was poor yesterday whether the ball was hit high or low to him , and there were plenty of times he had the chance to control it but did nothing with it. He doesn't escape criticism for me

[Petersa]

. You could put Harry Kane up top and it wouldn't make much difference

Tend to agree....so why when subs are made it is a like for like striker and makes little difference?

[Vegas Claret]

Tend to agree....so why when subs are made it is a like for like striker and makes little difference?

because our midfield isn't of the required standard, not bashing them, just how it is imho.

[spt_claret]

I think Cork, Stephens and Westwood would all be suited to a strict holding midfield role but what they lack compared to better players in that position is pace. I'm not sure they'd be able to protect the full backs and instead as you say we'll end up with the wide forwards tracking back instead.

We need at least one industrial defensive midfielder and we need another attacking midfielder. Two if McNeil instead plays on the wing.

We don't have the squad depth to play that way but I do wonder how McNeil as an attacking midfielder would do with Weghorst.

At the moment we have too many strikers really to play that way. 4 strikers in the squad and you pretty much have to play with two.

Agree thoroughly. If we had Kalvin Phillips I genuinely believe we would be comfortably mid-table, and I say that as someone who believes he's overrated. His playstyle is exactly what we need.
Not sure I agree on the 4 strikers point, especially as Barnes at this point, for all his past service, has offered nothing in any of his appearances for a very long time- I'd say since the shoulder injury. But even then I don't agree- start with 1 and you can shift to 2 fresh ones if need be, just leaving 1 out of the game, and it's unlikely we'd need to try all 4 styles in 1 game. Bigger issue is far more not having enough elsewhere, rather than too much up front.
McNeil as a CAM is an interesting option but I'm not sure he's dynamic enough for it, and also not sure if we'd be left too exposed on the flanks with him central. I think it's possibly where his final best position will be but his crossing ability and defensive workrate fit very well into our different options if he's out wide. Move him central and you still need a change in the CDM/FB positions to keep the shape right.
I'd almost consider playing McNeil or even Lennon in one of the central 2 in a 4231 honestly, McNeil's not rapid but reasonably mobile, good technique under pressure and passing, comparable tackling to Westwood. He'd be more a deep playmaker in a Pirlo vein than a CDM but it's an option. Lennon's fast and his defensive ability has come on miles under Dyche, it's a gamble but sticking him central to bomb around provides energy in the middle and lets us get Cornet wide right in front of Lowton (who as I've already said I think is the sort of fullback he needs behind him) and McNeil wide left. It's definitely a risk which also runs the danger of the Fifa/Football Manager trap of "just play your best 11 players" but based on Lennon's, and to a degree McNeil's, specific attributes I'm wondering if it's worth a role of the dice and corresponding change in system. I'd consider similar with Pieters if fit, I believe he's played CDM at previous clubs.
But then I'm someone who naturally likes Total Football and doesn't naturally like confining players to specific positions so it's possible I'm trying to be too clever. All in all, I'd prefer if we had more to work with.

[superdimitri]

Agree thoroughly. If we had Kalvin Phillips I genuinely believe we would be comfortably mid-table, and I say that as someone who believes he's overrated. His playstyle is exactly what we need.
Not sure I agree on the 4 strikers point, especially as Barnes at this point, for all his past service, has offered nothing in any of his appearances for a very long time- I'd say since the shoulder injury. But even then I don't agree- start with 1 and you can shift to 2 fresh ones if need be, just leaving 1 out of the game, and it's unlikely we'd need to try all 4 styles in 1 game. Bigger issue is far more not having enough elsewhere, rather than too much up front.
McNeil as a CAM is an interesting option but I'm not sure he's dynamic enough for it, and also not sure if we'd be left too exposed on the flanks with him central. I think it's possibly where his final best position will be but his crossing ability and defensive workrate fit very well into our different options if he's out wide. Move him central and you still need a change in the CDM/FB positions to keep the shape right.
I'd almost consider playing McNeil or even Lennon in one of the central 2 in a 4231 honestly, McNeil's not rapid but reasonably mobile, good technique under pressure and passing, comparable tackling to Westwood. He'd be more a deep playmaker in a Pirlo vein than a CDM but it's an option. Lennon's fast and his defensive ability has come on miles under Dyche, it's a gamble but sticking him central to bomb around provides energy in the middle and lets us get Cornet wide right in front of Lowton (who as I've already said I think is the sort of fullback he needs behind him) and McNeil wide left. It's definitely a risk which also runs the danger of the Fifa/Football Manager trap of "just play your best 11 players" but based on Lennon's, and to a degree McNeil's, specific attributes I'm wondering if it's worth a role of the dice and corresponding change in system. I'd consider similar with Pieters if fit, I believe he's played CDM at previous clubs.
But then I'm someone who naturally likes Total Football and doesn't naturally like confining players to specific positions so it's possible I'm trying to be too clever. All in all, I'd prefer if we had more to work with.

Not to mention the way we play has been drilled so hard into our players, having to adapt may be hard.

[joey13]

Of course Weghorst is a good player. He isn't been used to his strengths. Bad strikers don't get capped by Holland.

He’s 30 and has 12 caps

[spt_claret]

Not to mention the way we play has been drilled so hard into our players, having to adapt may be hard.

It's a possibility which concerns me. But at the same time, a lot of them are quite experienced, you would hope with experience comes the nous to adapt.

[KRBFC]

It genuinely doesn't matter who we have upfront at the minute, they're given absolutely nothing to work with. Pukki's goal Yesterday was so easy, midfield passed into his feet, turn, shoot, goal. How many times did we do that with Weghorst/Jay/Vydra? 0

Hate on Weghorst and say he's a poor player all you want but its clearly not his fault, Vydra was just as bad Yesterday.

[joey13]

It genuinely doesn't matter who we have upfront at the minute, they're given absolutely nothing to work with. Pukki's goal Yesterday was so easy, midfield passed into his feet, turn, shoot, goal. How many times did we do that with Weghorst/Jay/Vydra? 0

Hate on Weghorst and say he's a poor player all you want but its clearly not his fault, Vydra was just as bad Yesterday.

Play into his feet all you like it won’t make him any quicker.

[KRBFC]

Play into his feet all you like it won’t make him any quicker.

Why does he need to be quick to be effective though? Crouch wasn't quick either, look at his goal scoring record.

[KRBFC]

Look how many shots our strikers are having between them, says it all.

[boatshed bill]

Why does he need to be quick to be effective though? Crouch wasn't quick either, look at his goal scoring record.

Neither was the excellent Teddy Sherringham

[spt_claret]

He’s 30 and has 12 caps

He's a technically apt and capable of link play, yet still very much outright striker in a national side that hasn't regularly played with such sorts of striker in years, his main competition in that role has been Luuk de Jong who is a very good player.
He's a very good player who doesn't entirely fit the Dutch national style- something people like Van Basten have commented on- and who definitely doesn't fit our style when we are missing key personnel- 2 injured 1 dropped- who enabled us to play to his strengths.
He was linked with Spurs as Kane's replacement, and with Arsenal before that (who from what I hear mostly concluded that while good enough he didn't fit their style sufficiently). You don't get those links if you're a mug.

[spt_claret]

Why does he need to be quick to be effective though? Crouch wasn't quick either, look at his goal scoring record.

He's not even that bloody slow. He's 6'6" good luck having real pace at that size but he's still much more mobile than Chris Wood was (who I also do not subscribe to the negative revisionism on- for all his many limitations his goal record was excellent for us as we built a team around maximising his strengths). Weghorst does not have a team built to maximise his strengths, and goals aside has still offered more than Wood this season. 1 goal, 2 assists vs 3 goals is equal in goal contribution, in less time.

[JohnMcGreal]

He's not even that bloody slow. He's 6'6" good luck having real pace at that size but he's still much more mobile than Chris Wood was (who I also do not subscribe to the negative revisionism on- for all his many limitations his goal record was excellent for us as we built a team around maximising his strengths). Weghorst does not have a team built to maximise his strengths, and goals aside has still offered more than Wood this season. 1 goal, 2 assists vs 3 goals is equal in goal contribution, in less time.

He's not as mobile as Wood. Not even close.

[elwaclaret]

He’s 30 and has 12 caps

Meaning what? He has only got 12 cps at his age, or he’s managed to get 12 caps for Holland who have been comfortably a match for England for most of that time?

[elwaclaret]

He's not as mobile as Wood. Not even close.

Is that Wood who wanted to leave and sulked all season. Or happy Wood? Technically, Weghorst is far superior - if he doesn’t think the team is playing to his strength’s then, maybe, Dyche should be listening rather than publicly criticising him?

[boatshed bill]

He's not as mobile as Wood. Not even close.

He is what he is.
Great in the build up.
i believe that if we played football in and around the opposition's penalty area WW would be a real handful.
BTW, I'm not even comparing him to Wood, there's no point in it.

[JohnMcGreal]

Is that Wood who wanted to leave and sulked all season. Or happy Wood? Technically, Weghorst is far superior - if he doesn’t think the team is playing to his strength’s then, maybe, Dyche should be listening rather than publicly criticising him?

Maybe, yeah. I didn't mention any of that. I just responded to spt_claret's comment about Weghorst being much more mobile than Wood. He isn't.

[spt_claret]

Maybe, yeah. I didn't mention any of that. I just responded to spt_claret's comment about Weghorst being much more mobile than Wood. He isn't.

He is though.
He's caught offside far less.
He drops deep far better and more often to link play, and then gets back up top, while Wood would often loiter & lumber.
He's significantly more agile and able to control the ball at height.
Wood at his best was deceptively mobile I'll grant you that- but Wood as he was for at least the last 2 years, was definitely not as mobile as Weghorst.

[elwaclaret]

Maybe, yeah. I didn't mention any of that. I just responded to spt_claret's comment about Weghorst being much more mobile than Wood. He isn't.

I realise that, but tbh I wouldn’t have Wood back after he admitted he didn’t expect to ‘have’ to come back to Burnley this season… cannot abide the bloke, completely lacking any class. We really need to work with WW, that player from the Spurs game is still there… its the team style/drive that has changed

[boatshed bill]

He is though.
He's caught offside far less.
He drops deep far better and more often to link play, and then gets back up top, while Wood would often loiter & lumber.
He's significantly more agile and able to control the ball at height.
Wood at his best was deceptively mobile I'll grant you that- but Wood as he was for at least the last 2 years, was definitely not as mobile as Weghorst.

You don't make Weghorst any better by pinpointing what you think Wood was poor at.
Wasn't it 10 or more PL goals 3 seasons running? Not bad at all.
They are so different. But if we are to change our football then maybe Weghorst will prove to be a great asset, unfortunately he's not too good at heading a football.

[KRBFC]

Which of the 4 who have played striker are we currently getting the very best out of it? who suits the style of play? Non of them.

Even Mcneil is struggling badly, our only creative spark for god knows how many years.

It's not just Weghorst struggling to effect games, it's all of the attacking players combined. Everton game aside, how many goals in the last 5 games? how many shots on target? How many ''big chance created''? What is the XG?

[Nonayforever]

Dyche’s use of subs says everything you need to know about his thoughts.
Almost every game the strikers are subbed, not the midfield.
Therefore Dyche sees the problem lies within the strikers not the midfield. I would suggest that almost every fan sees the problem as the other way round.
Wout is a good player , so is Jay & Vyds but all get subbed.
What does Dyche think Barnes is going to do that the other 3 can't do ?
The problem isnt necessarily the players either , they are doing what Dyche wants them to do ( apart from the strikers) so in my eyes they problem is the style of play.