Is there a plan?

[DCWat]

If it can reach the upper level then yes it could be self sufficient, but this question is rarely asked about men's football.

The majority of men's professional football teams aren't self sufficient, they haven't been for a long time, but that's not an issue seemingly.

The difference being that the mens game could be self sufficient. It’s not because of all the reasons and more that we see on the MMT thread.

It’s a little unfair to say that it’s not an issue - I suspect that a huge majority of fans see it as an issue - but it’s a monster grown far beyond fans control.

We can vote with our feet but this is where football is different. It has a tie that your usual businesses don’t, other than perhaps a bit of brand loyalty.

[johnnyjones]

There is a rumour that Dyche and Ferguson are in the habit of getting drunk and smashing up pubs together and Dyche has been sacked because he's facing years in jail. I am running a charity appeal to support anyone thick enough to believe it.

I want to believe

[elwaclaret]

I want to believe

I’d love it… so many on here offering their ‘considered’ opinions of the right and wrongs of it. Taking sides with no information is very foolish.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The difference being that the mens game could be self sufficient. It’s not because of all the reasons and more that we see on the MMT thread.

It’s a little unfair to say that it’s not an issue - I suspect that a huge majority of fans see it as an issue - but it’s a monster grown far beyond fans control.

We can vote with our feet but this is where football is different. It has a tie that your usual businesses don’t, other than perhaps a bit of brand loyalty.

There have been people complaining about our net spend being low since ALK took over.... I don't think a huge majority of football fans give a toss about sustainability.
I'd love it if we introduced similar financial rules to Spain's, we'd end up with a lot of clubs having restrictions like Barca's.

Football fans are loyal attendees/watchers for as long as their club is at a level they're happy with, or until finances dictate they can no longer attend.
Usually it's the first one which diminishes their attendance.

[Blakesboots]

What’s out of order about it?

I think female team is good initiative but ultimately it’s not been a success. The viewership is incredibly low.

Imo it doesn’t read like that, like most of your posts you post emotive content and then roll it back when it’s discussed hiding behind your wordplay.

The womens team are always going to be on a journey through the leagues and it’ll take time to make this a success. Doesn’t mean money shouldn’t be given to that project.

[Burnley Ace]

The more this carries on the more it is getting ugly. I'm firmly in agreement with newcastle93, spt and jedi here. This smacks of misinformation to discredit Dyche.

The posts by blakesboots (who only appears actively on this board after the "lost the dressing room" Daily Mail article failed to hold properly) suggest Dyche refused to accept changes and got caught looking for a new job.

Aside from his "what would you do" post is extremely simplistic bordering on childish (I mean it's more a case of your business operationsl director who carries the can if the business fails being told someone else will hire people for key positions rather than middle managers) it's totally against what we know of his character and his approach.

The people who wanted the manager gone are so blinded by the fact that he has gone they're prepared to believe almost anything.

Sa king him might have been the right decision to inject new impetus - if that had happened after Huddersfield or Watford (or even Brentford. Sacking him with 8 games to go and 4 points adrift with no successor ready really isn't.

Likewise the people who wanted Dyche to stay cannot come up with any realistic scenarios to explain why the entire first team staff were sacked other than Pace is an idiot.

[Stu]

Likewise the people who wanted Dyche to stay cannot come up with any realistic scenarios to explain why the entire first team staff were sacked other than Pace is an idiot.

Well based on the fact that the manager was sacked along with the entire coaching staff with no obvious replacement lined up it’s difficult to argue that Pace isn’t an idiot .

[Nonayforever]

Well based on the fact that the manager was sacked along with the entire coaching staff with no obvious replacement lined up it’s difficult to argue that Pace isn’t an idiot .

But how can you have a replacement lined up if you didn't know that you was going to sack him before a meeting commenced ?

[DCWat]

There have been people complaining about our net spend being low since ALK took over.... I don't think a huge majority of football fans give a toss about sustainability.
I'd love it if we introduced similar financial rules to Spain's, we'd end up with a lot of clubs having restrictions like Barca's.

Football fans are loyal attendees/watchers for as long as their club is at a level they're happy with, or until finances dictate they can no longer attend.
Usually it's the first one which diminishes their attendance.

Again, I think that there’s a difference between sustainability and the example that you’ve put forward. We didn’t spend and haven’t spent to a level that met our needs, but feasibly could have done whilst remaining sustainable - certainly before ALK came along.

Yes, fab levels do fluctuate dependent upon success, but there will always be a hardcore who are there come what may. I’ve personally never quite understood that - Burnley is my team whatever division we are in and I’ll continue to follow them regardless. That level of loyalty, doesn’t really occur outside of sport.

I’m a bit of an Apple fan boy but if they started churning out crap products, it wouldn’t be long before I switched.

[claretspice]

To answer the original question - I bloody hope so, but it's not immediately apparent. If something "blew up" then a plan may not have been an option and we must accept that that is possible, particularly given the scale of blood letting. But absent that, it's pretty basic that you only make a change at this stage in the season if you've got someone lined up - particularly when you're on the cusp of a make-or-break week including 3 games of which 2 are winnable home games.

[Jakubclaret]

Well based on the fact that the manager was sacked along with the entire coaching staff with no obvious replacement lined up it’s difficult to argue that Pace isn’t an idiot .

He’s at fault top & bottom for not doing it sooner, we’ve left it that late now it’s going to be really hard getting out of this mess, I think he should have demoted dyche (if SD agreeable) & employed somebody else with dyche staying on even if for a short transitional period. I wanted dyche gone because things were turning toxic throughout the club & the relationship between SD & the players were beyond repair & affecting the results.

[Hapag Lloyd]

He’s at fault top & bottom for not doing it sooner, we’ve left it that late now it’s going to be really hard getting out of this mess, I think he should have demoted dyche (if SD agreeable) & employed somebody else with dyche staying on even if for a short transitional period. I wanted dyche gone because things were turning toxic throughout the club & the relationship between SD & the players were beyond repair & affecting the results.

What an absolute crock of ****.

[Nonayforever]

He’s at fault top & bottom for not doing it sooner, we’ve left it that late now it’s going to be really hard getting out of this mess, I think he should have demoted dyche (if SD agreeable) & employed somebody else with dyche staying on even if for a short transitional period. I wanted dyche gone because things were turning toxic throughout the club & the relationship between SD & the players were beyond repair & affecting the results.

Jakub, I don't think that's really fair. It looks like plans were being put in place, whether they are good plans or not only time could tell, but it appears that Dyche was unhappy with those plans and probably wasn't acceptable for him, so instead of discussing an exit with Pace at some stage of the season, it looks like he was making his own plans for the future which included his staff. Unfortunately it looks like information was also part of the conversations that shouldn't have taken place.
It had all probably got to the point of no return so Pace had no choice. Sh!t happens in life, make the best of a bad job and move on.
Dyche is still a good manager and Burnley is still a good team with a chance of staying up.

[Burnley Ace]

Well based on the fact that the manager was sacked along with the entire coaching staff with no obvious replacement lined up it’s difficult to argue that Pace isn’t an idiot .

Do you know why the entire staff were sacked?

[Jakubclaret]

Jakub, I don't think that's really fair. It looks like plans were being put in place, whether they are good plans or not only time could tell, but it appears that Dyche was unhappy with those plans and probably wasn't acceptable for him, so instead of discussing an exit with Pace at some stage of the season, it looks like he was making his own plans for the future which included his staff. Unfortunately it looks like information was also part of the conversations that shouldn't have taken place.
It had all probably got to the point of no return so Pace had no choice. Sh!t happens in life, make the best of a bad job and move on.
Dyche is still a good manager and Burnley is still a good team with a chance of staying up.

I’ve completely digested every single part of that post & it sounds like a resignation from SD but we all know pace sacked him, the relationship had reached end of the road & the players had rebelled, dress it up differently or sugar coat it, large parts of the fanbase had had enough & the players were starting to turn, dyche should have stayed on as a deputy with demotion & rebuilt the fractured relationships with the players.

[Swizzlestick]

In what realm would Dyche agree to be demoted? I sometimes think you just randomly spurt words out and hope this make a coherent sentence. The lack of logic employed is unreal.

[BurnleyFC]

I’ve completely digested every single part of that post & it sounds like a resignation from SD but we all know pace sacked him, the relationship had reached end of the road & the players had rebelled, dress it up differently or sugar coat it, large parts of the fanbase had had enough & the players were starting to turn, dyche should have stayed on as a deputy with demotion & rebuilt the fractured relationships with the players.

Stay on and become deputy?

Has anything like that ever happened in the history of a professional, top flight, football manager?

[Jakubclaret]

Demotions & promotions happen in every day all walks of life why not football, can people not be promoted when doing a good job or be demoted when doing a bad job. It should happen in football if both parties agree the relationship should continue but with change in position.

[Rileybobs]

We’ve missed a trick really. With Mike Jackson stepping up there is a vacancy for the U23 coach which Dyche would have been ideal for.

[KRBFC]

Every fan knew we needed new central midfielders but did SD?

Fake news.

When I was moaning about the January transfer window, I was told I was just being negative for the sake of it. I was shut down from the majority of this place for being unhappy at the January window, ''Pace can't do much more about the Orsic deal collapsing'' was the excuse used for not strengthening the team. Orsic is a wide player, not a CM btw.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Fake news.

When I was moaning about the January transfer window, I was told I was just being negative for the sake of it. I was shut down from the majority of this place for being unhappy at the January window, ''Pace can't do much more about the Orsic deal collapsing'' was the excuse used for not strengthening the team. Orsic is a wide player, not a CM btw.

Question is why were the recruitment teams ( whoever they are) so fixated on left midfield when we hardly have an option on the right( still!). Why did we need Orsic , can he play in the middle? We seemed to create problems getting too many left wingers, strange.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

If Pace has been overseeing transfers then it's very clearly Pace who refused to upgrade central midfield. You can't say that Pace buys the new players so knows what to do, then blame Dyche for Pace not signing central midfielders ahead of flashier players with a better profit margin on sale.

Given how well Dyche has done for us for years, I think he is far more likely to know what's needed than a financier with no finances whose only prior experience of football was 20 months as President of Real Salt Lake.

We haven’t bought a midfielder since Brownhill that’s on Dyche , he had a budget it’s never been prioritised for whatever reason. It is clear Pace was buying players this summer why didn’t he walk then if he had no say in who was being bought , blame for that can go both ways, seems a simplistic viewpoint.

I don’t suppose we will ever know but it is Dyche that got himself sacked by not playing the midfielder that got him seven points in three games by sheer stubbornness or because an issue developed with that player.

He simply could not see he was a better option for the team or did not want to play him for some personal issue. No surprise Cork came in against West Ham and we play some good stuff that we haven’t done apart from the mini revival when he was in the team.

[ClaretPete001]

We haven’t bought a midfielder since Brownhill that’s on Dyche , he had a budget it’s never been prioritised for whatever reason. It is clear Pace was buying players this summer why didn’t he walk then if he had no say in who was being bought , blame for that can go both ways, seems a simplistic viewpoint.

I don’t suppose we will ever know but it is Dyche that got himself sacked by not playing the midfielder that got him seven points in three games by sheer stubbornness or because an issue developed with that player.

He simply could not see he was a better option for the team or did not want to play him for some personal issue. No surprise Cork came in against West Ham and we play some good stuff that we haven’t done apart from the mini revival when he was in the team.

Whether we played better or worse is subjective. The facts are we have won or drawn at 6 out of the top ten away from home with Spurs left to play.

West Ham away after a big European game is exactly the kind of game we have played well in.

We bought Josh Brownhill in 19/20 and there was no budget in 20/21 due to Covid.

As you say, in 21/22 it looks as though Dyche had less influence on the transfer decisions so factually speaking he hasn't had influence on a budget since Brownhill was signed.

[BabylonClaret]

He’s at fault top & bottom for not doing it sooner, we’ve left it that late now it’s going to be really hard getting out of this mess, I think he should have demoted dyche (if SD agreeable) & employed somebody else with dyche staying on even if for a short transitional period. I wanted dyche gone because things were turning toxic throughout the club & the relationship between SD & the players were beyond repair & affecting the results.

That's just speculation. None of the actual direct information we have from this suggests there was a relationship breakdown between Dyche and the players. In fact the only direct evidence we have is from Jackson who said the players were shocked. He said "this has come as a shock k to the players but they are experienced lads. . . We have to pull together as a group" That isn't the reaction of a group who wanted Dyche out of the door.

There is nothing but rumours and insinuations which seem to be pushed out by the current regime at the club and yet if Dyche were to blame they could easily clear this up by saying that.

Here's a theory - maybe once Unsworth quit they approached him to see if he would be interested if the position were to be vacated and he suggested he might sonthe punted Dyche and then asked him and he said no.

I totally made that up but it's as believable as any of the other rumours

[Vegas Claret]

There is nothing but rumours and insinuations which seem to be pushed out by the current regime at the club and yet if Dyche were to blame they could easily clear this up by saying that.

It's all very much rumours indeed - I heard one today that if it turns out to be correct (pinch of salt) will result in all those who have been sacked not receiving a penny compensation because it is that serious. Would absolutely explain the sudden exit but I'm sure as **** not posting it on here

[BabylonClaret]

It's all very much rumours indeed - I heard one today that if it turns out to be correct (pinch of salt) will result in all those who have been sacked not receiving a penny compensation because it is that serious. Would absolutely explain the sudden exit but I'm sure as **** not posting it on here

Well exactly. However if that were true I'm pretty sure Pace would have actually said that. Why look like a bad guy (and he does for a lot of folks) when Dyche is holding a smoking gun?

[Vegas Claret]

Well exactly. However if that were true I'm pretty sure Pace would have actually said that. Why look like a bad guy (and he does for a lot of folks) when Dyche is holding a smoking gun?

indeed ! As I said, pinch of salt

[Shaggy]

Well exactly. However if that were true I'm pretty sure Pace would have actually said that. Why look like a bad guy (and he does for a lot of folks) when Dyche is holding a smoking gun?

To be fair in there situations where brand images are a factor no one wants to look a bad guy or be open to any major negative criticism.

There will be a mutual agreement of some sort of fudge as not to bring each side down.

Iv heard various things aswell and if it turns out to be true and gets into the public domain then people might not be so kind towards a certain someone as they are now. That’s an IF

[NewClaret]

To be fair in there situations where brand images are a factor no one wants to look a bad guy or be open to any major negative criticism.

It’s a strange one for sure: I agree that if you’ve been caught with your hand in the till (for instance) there’s every chance you would sign up to a generic reason for exit in return for no payoff but no damage to your future career. Maybe Pace would accept that too for a clean parting of ways and no legal wrangling over compensation.

In that scenario I find it hard to believe the whole team (inc Physio) would be punished or agree to the same though. But then I also can’t understand why so many current and ex players would choose to offer no opinions whatsoever on the sacking of a man that built or played a key role in their careers. Unless they were aware of things we’re not.

Timing is also odd in the extreme. Easter Friday, two days before a massive match, less availability of key people (lawyers, etc) you need to deal with matters. The Monday after the Norwich result, I’d get. Five days later is strange.

Then we come on to seemingly having nobody lined up to replace despite 2 vital home games this week & only 5 thereafter. Almost pointless making an appointment after this week.

Overall I’d say most likely is a results-based decision but if the silence remains this week with no replacement, you’ve got to assume Pace’s hand was forced by something.

[BabylonClaret]

I don't buy the hand in the till scenario that meant he had to be fired. If that's the case no one would be criticising the decision and Dyche would have no grounds for compo anyway.

There's been some disagreement probably but all this speculation that he did something that was impossible to ignore is just that.

More likely Pace has said we need to let everyone go if we go down and rebuild with youth players and young cheap replacements and Dyche went "are you mad?"

[daveisaclaret]

With the question posed by the OP looking to be answered with a conclusive no, we are now just moving onto the assumption that there must be a good reason why there's no plan.

I hope I'm wrong (particularly because it looks so, so odd if there was no plan and no incident to cause the situation) but I just can't muster that faith in the owners.

[ClaretPete001]

It's all nonsense and bullsh*t. It's awful a club legend is getting treated this way.

There is no way the whole team has committed gross misconduct and it's absolutely not an issue if Dyche wanted to move elsewhere, it happens all the time in business. However, the likelihood is that having secured a long term contract he wasn't looking to do that...!

Nick Pope has also said it was a shock and that the players love playing for the club

The most plausible reason for sacking the whole team is a feeling at board level that Dyche's team had invested in the Dyche way and were not on board with the new plan.

Not in an unprofessional way but because believe they were trying to do the best for the club.

How many of us, with any experience, of a new manager or management team, have not been in a situation where we have felt that an organisation was going the wrong way and with the best possible intentions tried to urge caution?

All this is supposition, but probably the most likely scenario based on what we know. VSL/ALK are desperate not to get relegated because of the financial implications. This is the last throw of the dice and likely felt at board level a clear out would help herald a new way of thinking.

Very risky strategy for fans! A no brainer for investors set to lose a hundred million plus off the value of their asset.

[Sleeping Cat]

I've been wary of ALK since they came on the scene, and this has now convinced me they haven't a clue based on the timing of this decision and the lack of a clear candidate to replace Dyche. They could have sacked him the night of the Norwich game, got their new person in by Tuesday and given him a week with the players. Now it seems we'll go for an Interim Manager? Who will that appeal to? Why not just stick with the experienced manager they so often talked up and gave a huge contract too only 6 months ago?

[Chester Perry]

It's all nonsense and bullsh*t. It's awful a club legend is getting treated this way.

There is no way the whole team has committed gross misconduct and it's absolutely not an issue if Dyche wanted to move elsewhere, it happens all the time in business. However, the likelihood is that having secured a long term contract he wasn't looking to do that...!

Nick Pope has also said it was a shock and that the players love playing for the club

The most plausible reason for sacking the whole team is a feeling at board level that Dyche's team had invested in the Dyche way and were not on board with the new plan.

Not in an unprofessional way but because believe they were trying to do the best for the club.

How many of us, with any experience, of a new manager or management team, have not been in a situation where we have felt that an organisation was going the wrong way and with the best possible intentions tried to urge caution?

All this is supposition, but probably the most likely scenario based on what we know. VSL/ALK are desperate not to get relegated because of the financial implications. This is the last throw of the dice and likely felt at board level a clear out would help herald a new way of thinking.

Very risky strategy for fans! A no brainer for investors set to lose a hundred million plus off the value of their asset.

From what we know (these have come directly from VSL/Pace) there were two cornerstones to the VSL strategy

- build a brand of Britain's favourite underdog club that could be packaged and sold around the world
- find additional investors to pay off the leveraged debt and monies loaned from the club

the two are intrinsically linked, we know that VSL are struggling on the 2nd point, are investors telling them that the 1st strategy is hogwash - like fans of our and all other clubs have been telling them since they first broadcast the notion. There was a brand to be marketed, it just seems that VSL (like the previous administration) have struggled to find it.

from what I have seen on those expensive and flashy LED boards - there was the kernel of something that has not yet been exploited but which Jonathan Liew has touched on in his article today.

I am thinking of Milwaukie Tools, Stanley Tools and Budweiser - why not Levi's, why not Shinola and other such international products/brands, revel in our industry and working man image like Detroit has been doing in it's attempts at a renaissance- after all, it cannot only be me that has noted that for the most part our international fan based has grown most in areas like that - I have longed talked about the opportunity to make us the Greenbay of the Premier League (though that opportunity may now be passing) it is amazing how popular we are in Wisconsin.

[spt_claret]

From what we know (these have come directly from VSL/Pace) there were two cornerstones to the VSL strategy

- build a brand of Britain's favourite underdog club that could be packaged and sold around the world
- find additional investors to pay off the leveraged debt and monies loaned from the club

the two are intrinsically linked, we know that VSL are struggling on the 2nd point, are investors telling them that the 1st strategy is hogwash - like fans of our and all other clubs have been telling them since they first broadcast the notion. There was a brand to be marketed, it just seems that VSL (like the previous administration) have struggled to find it.

from what I have seen on those expensive and flashy LED boards - there was the kernel of something that has not yet been exploited but which Jonathan Liew has touched on in his article today.

I am thinking of Milwaukie Tools, Stanley Tools and Budweiser - why not Levi's, why not Shinola and other such international products/brands, revel in our industry and working man image like Detroit has been doing in it's attempts at a renaissance- after all, it cannot only be me that has noted that for the most part our international fan based has grown most in areas like that - I have longed talked about the opportunity to make us the Greenbay of the Premier League (though that opportunity may now be passing) it is amazing how popular we are in Wisconsin.

Couldn't agree more especially re. Underdog branding. I think we already WERE a popular underdog especially given our size, with a unique image and brand that could have been exploited better exactly as you say provided you can cut out some of the negative connotations we got saddled with at times. We're now losing that unique identity and I'm unclear what the plan to replace it is beyond essentially offering a budget version of what's already out there.

[tiger76]

Stay on and become deputy?

Has anything like that ever happened in the history of a professional, top flight, football manager?

The only similar instance I can recall is Roy Evans/Gerrard Houillier at Liverpool, when they took joint control, instead of Evans doing it alone, as he had for a few seasons prior, but that arrangement didn't last long.

[Vegas Claret]

you'll NEVER be a favourite underdog of a TV PL fan when the football on show is rubbish. Fix that first

[claptrappers_union]

Where’s this interim manager we were supposed to appoint before tonight’s game?

[Jakubclaret]

The only similar instance I can recall is Roy Evans/Gerrard Houillier at Liverpool, when they took joint control, instead of Evans doing it alone, as he had for a few seasons prior, but that arrangement didn't last long.

Steve bould at arsenal he stepped down but I think he was a deputy already & ended up doing something else, it can & does happen rarely if both parties want to continue the relationship but the roles are untenable.