Burnley’s owners ‘don’t get the club’

[arise_sir_charge]

I too was brought up on Mullen, Heath et Al. Where one sees flying wingers and goal scorers, another sees a big club bullying 4th division and 3rd division teams to promotion. It’s easier to have those things when your budget is bigger than most.

Well, your recollection differs to mine. I don’t recall us being particularly wealthy or massively outspending teams especially the further up we went.

Regardless of that the point still stands, it isn’t Burnley’s identity we’ve been seeing it’s Dyche’s and we can go back further than our time to see that we’ve always played with an element of flair even when eclipsed by big city clubs etc.

As for the point by SPT about him being seen as egotistical if he’d gone for a pint in the pub, I doubt it would have been seen as anything other than courteous.

[dandeclaret]

Well, your recollection differs to mine. I don’t recall us being particularly wealthy or massively outspending teams especially the further up we went.

Regardless of that the point still stands, it isn’t Burnley’s identity we’ve been seeing it’s Dyche’s and we can go back further than our time to see that we’ve always played with an element of flair even when eclipsed by big city clubs etc.

As for the point by SPT about him being seen as egotistical if he’d gone for a pint in the pub, I doubt it would have been seen as anything other than courteous.

When Ternent was spending £750k on Steve Davis, £450k on Mickey Mellon and paying Ian Wrights wages in the 3rd division, you don’t think the club were outspending others? When Burnley were training at Gawthorpe in the 4th division and many other clubs were on parks lands, you don’t think that was an advantage?

Burnley’s identity was as a sleeping giant….. Dyches identity if you want it that way was as an established premier league club punching above its weight.

Surely that’s not hard to see?

[Quickenthetempo]

When Ternent was spending £750k on Steve Davis, £450k on Mickey Mellon and paying Ian Wrights wages in the 3rd division, you don’t think the club were outspending others? When Burnley were training at Gawthorpe in the 4th division and many other clubs were on parks lands, you don’t think that was an advantage?

Burnley’s identity was as a sleeping giant….. Dyches identity if you want it that way was as an established premier league club punching above its weight.

Surely that’s not hard to see?

I can't say I ever looked at Burnley as having more financial clout in the lower divisions. I saw a big ground half empty that was probably fortunes to run.

The only club that sticks out for financial muscle was Bolton when they signed 3 players that we couldn't handle at Burnden Park. A CF, winger and maybe Alan Stubbs? 1.5m rings a bell, not sure if that was for all 3 or each but they were way above the level.

As for Burnley we wasted 1m on Ian Moore and didn't Steve Davis come back because Luton never paid us for him?

[Burnley Ace]

When Ternent was spending £750k on Steve Davis, £450k on Mickey Mellon and paying Ian Wrights wages in the 3rd division, you don’t think the club were outspending others? When Burnley were training at Gawthorpe in the 4th division and many other clubs were on parks lands, you don’t think that was an advantage?

Burnley’s identity was as a sleeping giant….. Dyches identity if you want it that way was as an established premier league club punching above its weight.

Surely that’s not hard to see?

I have written elsewhere about Dyche developing this “Brand” as a manager achieving success against the odds. This may be why he has never been approached by other Prem teams and could provide some explanation as to why we have consistently failed to get new players in that £15m bracket.

[andyh]

Couple of things that have wound me up in recent days.

This talk of “the Burnley way” etc…..I was brought up on us having flying wingers, goal scorers and flair on the field. Mullen, Heath, Ternent being notable exponents of this. What we’ve seen was the Dyche way, not the Burnley way. It worked until fairly recently but I don’t see it as our identity.

Also, all this talk of Sean getting the fans and the town and stuff like that. I was never convinced he did to the level some people suggested: let’s be honest, he couldn’t even bring himself to go for a pint in a pub named in his honour.

I totally agree. Ive said multiple times that Dyche changed our character. Pre-Dyche I used to think we needed to attack at 1-0 up… Dyche slowly made me trust that we could defend that lead. (Although this year we’ve not done it… that is the main difference for me this year). Where Dyche did appeal to our nature is in the “maximum effort is the minimum expectation”.

[ClaretTony]

Also, “at Turf”

On the Turf
On’t Turf
At the Turf

Never At Turf

Darren Bentley should have corrected him the first day he said that. Instead club officials changed to the way HE said it.

He just hadn’t understood the accent, but instead of explaining it to him they followed him and said it the same way.

[ClaretTony]

Well one would probably still be at the club if they didn’t hit reply all…

That guy they hired to sort the match day experience should be next out of the door.

I think you are referring to Russell Ball, head of match day operations. I googled him to see what his experiences were. He was an estate agent in London and also the top man at the Church of Latter Day Saints in Guildford. Football fan though, Brighton I believe.

[Papabendi]

I think you are referring to Russell Ball, head of match day operations. I googled him to see what his experiences were. He was an estate agent in London and also the top man at the Church of Latter Day Saints in Guildford. Football fan though, Brighton I believe.

Doesnt Pace also have his future son in law in a nice position at the club too? Also a CofTLS connection...

[arise_sir_charge]

When Ternent was spending £750k on Steve Davis, £450k on Mickey Mellon and paying Ian Wrights wages in the 3rd division, you don’t think the club were outspending others? When Burnley were training at Gawthorpe in the 4th division and many other clubs were on parks lands, you don’t think that was an advantage?

Burnley’s identity was as a sleeping giant….. Dyches identity if you want it that way was as an established premier league club punching above its weight.

Surely that’s not hard to see?

To be fair that’s a handful of signings across a period spanning multiple years and many failed attempts.

A number of people on here would have you believe that our level is around league one. All the historical evidence suggests otherwise but that’s what they believe.

In any event it’s irrelevant to my point. My point is that this talk of “peak Burnley” isn’t what I consider to be Burnley, it isn’t what made me fall in love with football and the club.

As I’ve said it can’t be argued it was successful for a period but I don’t want it to define what we are for eternity.

[ClaretTony]

Doesnt Pace also have his future son in law in a nice position at the club too? Also a CofTLS connection...

I believe so in the commercial department.

[randomclaret2]

I believe so in the commercial department.

I assume he's fully qualified and was the best candidate for the job....

[ClaretTony]

I assume he's fully qualified and was the best candidate for the job....

Previous two years as a missionary

[randomclaret2]

Previous two years as a missionary

[randomclaret2]

Does Mr Pace have any family members who could replace SD Tony ?

[Chester Perry]

I think you are referring to Russell Ball, head of match day operations. I googled him to see what his experiences were. He was an estate agent in London and also the top man at the Church of Latter Day Saints in Guildford. Football fan though, Brighton I believe.

and in between was an analyst on the takeover prep for ALK, I have posted about this before - his current role is strange for a former Estate agent - the analyst role made a bit more sense given the different properties the club owns - I have been waiting ever since December 30 2020 for an announcement about that land off Mollywood lane near J9 of the M65

[AlargeClaret]

I wonder if this is one of the ex employees who were removed from the gravy train?

There’s nothing to see here

Quite possibly but I’d hardly called the standard salaries we pay for admin / media etc would class as boarding the gravy train tbh.

[AlargeClaret]

Someone must have told Pace to say “ on” when referring to “ going on” etc . As he tweeted something like “good luck on Carrow Rd”

[Sleeping Cat]

I wonder if this is one of the ex employees who were removed from the gravy train?

There’s nothing to see here

So interesting to see people say former employees who have all given 10, 15, 20 years + service were on a gravy train and yet further along this thread it appears we have a friend of Pace's from his Church in a role at the club & supposedly his Son in Law in the commercial department.

[randomclaret2]

So interesting to see people say former employees who have all given 10, 15, 20 years + service were on a gravy train and yet further along this thread it appears we have a friend of Pace's from his Church in a role at the club & supposedly his Son in Law in the commercial department.

Really doesnt sit right with me if true

[Papabendi]

I too was brought up on Mullen, Heath et Al. Where one sees flying wingers and goal scorers, another sees a big club bullying 4th division and 3rd division teams to promotion. It’s easier to have those things when your budget is bigger than most.

I don't think this is an amazing analogy as we certainly never had a great deal of cash in the lower leagues aside from a one off injection from BK which you have referred to and was long over due. I think the best you can say is it was a more level playing field which allowed different winning styles of football to emerge at that level.

[ClaretTony]

I don't think this is an amazing analogy as we certainly never had a great deal of cash in the lower leagues aside from a one off injection from BK which you have referred to and was long over due. I think the best you can say is it was a more level playing field which allowed different winning styles of football to emerge at that level.

I'm pleased you said 'more level' and not just 'level'. It wasn't level even when we had the great side of the 60s but for us now, in this league, the playing field is like a steep hill.

[Sleeping Cat]

I don't think this is an amazing analogy as we certainly never had a great deal of cash in the lower leagues aside from a one off injection from BK which you have referred to and was long over due. I think the best you can say is it was a more level playing field which allowed different winning styles of football to emerge at that level.

Indeed. I'm pretty sure i've read/heard in many interviews that relegation from League 1 in 1998 would've spelled administration. That in itself doesn't exactly suggest we were financially bullying teams throughout the 90's. Great times though.

[ClaretPete001]

Clubs like Burnley only survive in the top league by being disruptors of the norm - certainly not by playing by the rules of the leagues norms, you will just be devoured by by richer, bigger clubs doing that - If the people in ownership have not learned that simple lesson then we really are going to struggle

It is no coincidence, that our model stopped being as effective the moment that clubs with vastly deeper pockets started employing a similar approach to recruitment and deliberately raised price expectations in our well known hunting grounds. As for fertile overseas markets - are they really? given the level of competition we are seeing in them, at best we are picking up players in a combination of sellers need and our rivals having doubts about the individuals themselves - for all we appreciate the talents the concerns are there for people to see.

I was hoping that we would see some genuine disruption in the commercial arena under VSL - there is no sign of it yet - everything I am aware of is pretty much follow the leader standard fare - that will not give us the edge we/they need to boost revenues dramatically

In terms of the article most of it could have been culled spending ten minutes on here.

But the post above is absolutely the point. We had a disruptor brand that brought with it many admirers. It looks squandered now.

[Chester Perry]

Really doesnt sit right with me if true

At least this lad had some commercial office experience in the US before he came to the club, not much but some

[randomclaret2]

At least this lad had some commercial office experience in the US before he came to the club, not much but some

Yes, that will be what swung it for him

[Chester Perry]

Yes, that will be what swung it for him

just comparing it to Estate Agent and Missionary to 'Head of Match Day Experience' though i suppose it could be argued missionary work is relevant at a strtch

[Chester Perry]

In terms of the article most of it could have been culled spending ten minutes on here.

But the post above is absolutely the point. We had a disruptor brand that brought with it many admirers. It looks squandered now.

I wouldn't say squandered just run it's course without a new disruptive approach emerging - as I keep quoting from Miguel Delaney in July 2020

“There are no “model clubs” for long. There’s only really a financial model that eventually finishes you”.

Elsewhere in the same article Delaney wrote this, it isn’t prophetic, rather it is just what happens to clubs of limited size and means.

“…a long line of Premier League sides – and especially promoted sides – who looked a model club as regards to how you operate, only to hit a ceiling that very quickly sent them back through the trapdoor. Years of stability abruptly followed by a quick and chaotic relegation.

It happened to West Brom, to Stoke City, to Swansea City, to Fulham, to Bolton Wanderers and to Charlton Athletic. It may well happen to Burnley in the future, too, given some of Sean Dyche’s recent comments.”

[KRBFC]

A number of people on here would have you believe that our level is around league one. All the historical evidence suggests otherwise but that’s what they believe.

''As of the end of the 2020–21 season, the team have spent 58 seasons in the top division of English football, 46 in the second, 11 in the third, and 7 in the fourth.''


Anyone who thinks we're not a top 2 division club is an idiot. Also it's gonna take us a while to shake this ugly Dyche tag, the success was great, the 442 brexit longball team identity not so much.

[spt_claret]

''As of the end of the 2020–21 season, the team have spent 58 seasons in the top division of English football, 46 in the second, 11 in the third, and 7 in the fourth.''


Anyone who thinks we're not a top 2 division club is an idiot. Also it's gonna take us a while to shake this ugly Dyche tag, the success was great, the 442 brexit longball team identity not so much.

The Brexit stuff was largely media pushed and somewhat facilitated by a couple of unpleasant fan-driven incidents, more than anything with the football.
But perhaps it's time to retire "no one likes us we don't care" for "please like us we can be just like you".

[agreenwood]

David Sullivan’s 22 yo son is on the board of directors at West Ham United. It doesn’t appear to have hindered them in any way.

[ClaretTony]

David Sullivan’s 22 yo son is on the board of directors at West Ham United. It doesn’t appear to have hindered them in any way.

Bob Lord's son-in-law was on the board at Burnley. I don't think he did much though other than agree with the chairman.

[ClaretLoup]

Linked in is a very interesting source of information on some of the back room guys now running our club .

1) Stuart Hunt - he is a director. His background seems to be mainly finance with a brief flirtation with Checketts set up. President of PapaJohns restaurant chain based in Utah. Also is a Mormon

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-hunt-shunt8

2) next up is Joe Ferguson our Business Development Manager, he has some limited business experience and a certificate from Rossendale College. His main experience so far though is as a missionary for the Latter Day Saints in Yekaterinburg (Siberia) and Kazakhstan. Speaks Russian though, could be useful one day.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-ferguson-105726133

3) Micheal Smith - Executive Director seems to be more hands on than Stuart, his timeline has a number of posts on it. Spent a 20 year stint as a New York lawyer. Claims to have worked with some of the top American football franchises. No declared connection to the Mormon church

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-smith-2ba37219

[wilks_bfc]

Someone must have told Pace to say “ on” when referring to “ going on” etc . As he tweeted something like “good luck on Carrow Rd”

At least we haven’t started going with the American way of advertising games as x @ y

Ie tonight’s game as “Southampton @ Burnley”

[Chester Perry]

I wouldn't say squandered just run it's course without a new disruptive approach emerging - as I keep quoting from Miguel Delaney in July 2020

“There are no “model clubs” for long. There’s only really a financial model that eventually finishes you”

Elsewhere in the same article Delaney wrote this, it isn’t prophetic, rather it is just what happens to clubs of limited size and means.

“…a long line of Premier League sides – and especially promoted sides – who looked a model club as regards to how you operate, only to hit a ceiling that very quickly sent them back through the trapdoor. Years of stability abruptly followed by a quick and chaotic relegation.

It happened to West Brom, to Stoke City, to Swansea City, to Fulham, to Bolton Wanderers and to Charlton Athletic. It may well happen to Burnley in the future, too, given some of Sean Dyche’s recent comments.”

adding to that thought is this stat from @SportingIntel yesterday evening

https://twitter.com/sportingintel/statu ... msiY0qAAAA

[ClaretPete001]

I wouldn't say squandered just run it's course without a new disruptive approach emerging - as I keep quoting from Miguel Delaney in July 2020



Elsewhere in the same article Delaney wrote this, it isn’t prophetic, rather it is just what happens to clubs of limited size and means.

“…a long line of Premier League sides – and especially promoted sides – who looked a model club as regards to how you operate, only to hit a ceiling that very quickly sent them back through the trapdoor. Years of stability abruptly followed by a quick and chaotic relegation.

It happened to West Brom, to Stoke City, to Swansea City, to Fulham, to Bolton Wanderers and to Charlton Athletic. It may well happen to Burnley in the future, too, given some of Sean Dyche’s recent comments.”

No club the size of Burnley is going to stay forever in the Premiership but it can put itself in a position to thrive in the Championship and develop an authentic brand that is understood more widely than East Lancashire.

Yes, the club could have been central to a sports/technology portfolio and used as a disruptor brand leader in a high tech proposition but as you allude above and elsewhere that seems not to be the reality of VSL/ALK that it did at the start.

[Chester Perry]

No club the size of Burnley is going to stay forever in the Premiership but it can put itself in a position to thrive in the Championship and develop an authentic brand that is understood more widely than East Lancashire.

Yes, the club could have been central to a sports/technology portfolio and used as a disruptor brand leader in a high tech proposition but as you allude above and elsewhere that seems not to be the reality of VSL/ALK that it did at the start.

It is interesting when you look at the clubs most associated with that way of thinking

Brentfords - owner has been working on the data modelling for over 15 years have first developed it for Brighton owners Tony Bloom, betting advisory service, Having setting up his own successful betting advisory service the model was first proved in Denmark and then in the EFL, courtesy of a lot of extra money from the owner and benefit from being developed across two revenue streams and cost bases

Liverpool's - came with the backing of a stats supportive ownership and fuelled with the extraordinary revenues generated from the sale of a few players - it still took for or five years to come to fruition and then only with a coach/manager who was persuaded of the benefits after some scepticism - Liverpool have set new levels of salaries in this field when they started recuiting in the same markets as hedge funders for their analysts - namely astro physics and bio chemistry - these people are trained to create complex data models, it is a concept the owners are familiar with from their day jobs

our position has never been anything like these despite the image that VSL like to present

[aggi]

Linked in is a very interesting source of information on some of the back room guys now running our club .

1) Stuart Hunt - he is a director. His background seems to be mainly finance with a brief flirtation with Checketts set up. President of PapaJohns restaurant chain based in Utah. Also is a Mormon

https://www.linkedin.com/in/stuart-hunt-shunt8

2) next up is Joe Ferguson our Business Development Manager, he has some limited business experience and a certificate from Rossendale College. His main experience so far though is as a missionary for the Latter Day Saints in Yekaterinburg (Siberia) and Kazakhstan. Speaks Russian though, could be useful one day.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joe-ferguson-105726133

3) Micheal Smith - Executive Director seems to be more hands on than Stuart, his timeline has a number of posts on it. Spent a 20 year stint as a New York lawyer. Claims to have worked with some of the top American football franchises. No declared connection to the Mormon church

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michael-smith-2ba37219

President of PapaJohns restaurant chain based in Utah Just for clarity, this isn't chair of the Papa John's company, just a small handful of their restaurants (they run a franchise model) on the East coast.

I suspect Joe Ferguson is pretty junior. Didn't we recently get some bloke from Celtic to lead that area?

[Chester Perry]

President of PapaJohns restaurant chain based in Utah Just for clarity, this isn't chair of the Papa John's company, just a small handful of their restaurants (they run a franchise model) on the East coast.

yep currently up to around 60 or so franchises now, with aims to take it to around 100 in the next six years

https://www.qsrmagazine.com/news/papa-j ... l-20-years

for sake of balance there are over 2500 Papa John's outlets in the US

so obviously some asset wealth there, which I have suggested a number of times, just not the billionaire wealth most seem to be looking for

[timshorts]

At least this lad had some commercial office experience in the US before he came to the club, not much but some

This sounds like the norm in us football. Owners son gets a job in the front office without being qualified for it, coaches son gets job as kit man - then getting promoted later on to some job they aren't qualified for.
That said, the "coaches son" model often works. They've been brought up with football all around them (and the current head coach of the superbowl winning rams got a start like that).
The front office job is not so successful. Hardly surprising that as whilst most head coaches work their arses off all year giving their kids of good idea of what is expected, most owners there still treat the team as a bit of a plaything.
I have no idea what useful occupation "missionary work" would qualify you for, but I doubt that they would include running a proffessional football club.

[aggi]

...
I have no idea what useful occupation "missionary work" would qualify you for, but I doubt that they would include running a proffessional football club.

Business development sounds like an ideal step. A thick skin and convincing people to sign up to something that they weren't previously interested in, perfect.

[aggi]

yep currently up to around 60 or so franchises now, with aims to take it to around 100 in the next six years

https://www.qsrmagazine.com/news/papa-j ... l-20-years

for sake of balance there are over 2500 Papa John's outlets in the US

so obviously some asset wealth there, which I have suggested a number of times, just not the billionaire wealth most seem to be looking for

Probably not much in the way of asset wealth. Most premises are likely to be leased.

[ClaretPete001]

Probably not much in the way of asset wealth. Most premises are likely to be leased.

It sounds the kind of profile that used to run football clubs back in the day: car franchise millionaires etc.

The problem is not that fans want billionaire backers but that the Premiership is owned by billionaires.

No prizes for guessing the three that aren't: Norwich, Watford and Burnley.