Burnley Football Club - first accounts under ALK

[Lancasterclaret]

The bloke you refer to as having ruined Charlton is Cheshire based solicitor Chris Farnell. He'd previously been involved at Wigan, Leeds and Swansea prior to working alongside Paul Elliott in the latter's bid to buy Charlton and eventually Farnell became advisor to Tahnoon Neimer. The bloke who ruined Charlton was prior to that. He was Belgian Roland Duchâtelet who now owns Carl Zeiss Jena and Újpest. The CEO was Katrien Meire (that's who the liar arrow was pointing at when we last played there). She went to Sheffield Wednesday but now mercifully seems to be out of football.

Great, and the Charlton fans who explicitly warned us about him where wrong then?

Jolly good

Care to share your info on why the Egyptian guy would have been better btw?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Great, and the Charlton fans who explicitly warned us about him where wrong then?

Jolly good

Care to share your info on why the Egyptian guy would have been better btw?

For me personally it’s the history of Pace and Checketts for one. Salt lake ended badly.

At least the Egyptian appeared to have money.

[RVclaret]

Great, and the Charlton fans who explicitly warned us about him where wrong then?

Jolly good

Care to share your info on why the Egyptian guy would have been better btw?

https://thecharltondossier.com/chris-farnell/

Farnell sounded incredibly dodgy then and does still now.

[RVclaret]

For me personally it’s the history of Pace and Checketts for one. Salt lake ended badly.

At least the Egyptian appeared to have money.

The Egyptians takeover would likely have also been an LBO, given he has made his personal wealth in private equity.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not a fan of ignoring reality btw

What has happened, has happened, and we have to make the best we can out of it

Starting with hopefully surviving this season and seeing where we are next season (and as I've already said, I'm under no illusions about how hard it is going to be to survive next season)

[ClaretTony]

Great, and the Charlton fans who explicitly warned us about him where wrong then?

Jolly good

Care to share your info on why the Egyptian guy would have been better btw?

I had long discussions with people from Charlton along with others from Burnley. Make no mistake that Farnell was bad news, but he and Elliott jumped into a club already in crisis. I have no information on the Egyptian although he was part of their plans at Charlton.

[Lancasterclaret]

I had long discussions with people from Charlton along with others from Burnley. Make no mistake that Farnell was bad news, but he and Elliott jumped into a club already in crisis. I have no information on the Egyptian although he was part of their plans at Charlton.

As I've already said, its pointless anyway

I just don't see any scenario when MG decided to sell in which we'd be run in the same way sadly

[Quickenthetempo]

The bloke you refer to as having ruined Charlton is Cheshire based solicitor Chris Farnell. He'd previously been involved at Wigan, Leeds and Swansea prior to working alongside Paul Elliott in the latter's bid to buy Charlton and eventually Farnell became advisor to Tahnoon Neimer. The bloke who ruined Charlton was prior to that. He was Belgian Roland Duchâtelet who now owns Carl Zeiss Jena and Újpest. The CEO was Katrien Meire (that's who the liar arrow was pointing at when we last played there). She went to Sheffield Wednesday but now mercifully seems to be out of football.

If I remember rightly CT you were very much against the other group buying us and working close (as Burnley Supporters groups) with Charlton fans to find out info and prevent them buying us?

Nobody can predict how things will work out with Takeovers. After all, these investment companies want profits for themselves.

You have already covered this further up I see.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Interesting that questions about the accounts were banned at todays press conference.

Has that ever happened before?

[RVclaret]

Interesting that questions about the accounts were banned at todays press conference.

Has that ever happened before?

Do you think asking an interim manager who is 100% focused on the next game and keeping us in the league, about a complex set of accounts he probably knows nothing about, would be a good thing or bad thing?

[ClaretTony]

If I remember rightly CT you were very much against the other group buying us and working close (as Burnley Supporters groups) with Charlton fans to find out info and prevent them buying us?

Nobody can predict how things will work out with Takeovers. After all, these investment companies want profits for themselves.

Absolutely I was, based on what I'd gleaned from Charlton Athletic Supporters Groups, from Charlton Athletic Football Club and from others involved. I remember even having a zoom meeting with one Charlton fan based in Hungary. He had a huge dossier about Farnell that I know was passed to someone in Burnley who was in a far better place to make use of it than I was.

I stand by it, I think anything involving Farnell would have been bad for the club but they were sneaking into Charlton at a time when they were desperate following Duchâtelet's time there. Thing seem to be on a more even keel at Charlton at the moment.

As for ALK, I was more positive prior to the takeover because the opinions I was getting proved not to be the reality of the situation.

[ClaretTony]

Interesting that questions about the accounts were banned at todays press conference.

Has that ever happened before?

Not saying it hasn't happened before, and I've seen similar at other clubs. Can't recall that at Burnley before although, in fairness, it's not the sort of question to ask a caretaker manager. It was a Claret who asked the question though.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Not saying it hasn't happened before, and I've seen similar at other clubs. Can't recall that at Burnley before although, in fairness, it's not the sort of question to ask a caretaker manager. It was a Claret who asked the question though.

Probably right not to ask Jackson.

I just find it strange that the topic was banned though.

[ClaretTony]

Probably right not to ask Jackson.

I just find it strange that the topic was banned though.

There's no way he could have answered those questions but it was Sky who asked and rightly so given it's the only way they thought they could get a response. Pete Stevenson quickly moved on though and didn't go back to it.

[Chester Perry]

There's no way he could have answered those questions but it was Sky who asked and rightly so given it's the only way they thought they could get a response. Pete Stevenson quickly moved on though and didn't go back to it.

Every media report I have seen says that the club has refused to answer questions on the accounts - noticed this from Matt Slater on twitter though

https://twitter.com/mjshrimper/status/1 ... Xe2Z8qAAAA

I remember just how smug Pace was at the time, saying it was all wrong - when actually a lot was close to the truth

[BurnleyFC]

Pace is a bullshitter. Pure and simple.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

For me personally it’s the history of Pace and Checketts for one. Salt lake ended badly.

At least the Egyptian appeared to have money.

It's ace when you just throw that out about RSL without fleshing it out.

It just proves that trying to educate you is an absolute waste of time.

[dsr]

I remember just how smug Pace was at the time, saying it was all wrong - when actually a lot was close to the truth

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/fo ... rt-3089574

If you can dodge the adverts, this is how it was reported at the time.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The Egyptians takeover would likely have also been an LBO, given he has made his personal wealth in private equity.

This is most likely because from what I've read no one has been able to establish just how much money the Egyptian bloke has.

There are wide ranging claims but nothing definite, maybe only a few hundred million, which was never going to be enough for him to sugar daddy a football club

[Quickenthetempo]

Pace is a bullshitter. Pure and simple.

The world revolves around bullshit and to be that high in Business, he will have a degree in it.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Pace is a bullshitter. Pure and simple.

You wanted Garlick to go, you wanted the takeover to happen.
Now you spend your time complaining about the new owners.

I think the phrase is "be careful what you wish for"

[Chester Perry]

https://www.burnleyexpress.net/sport/fo ... rt-3089574

If you can dodge the adverts, this is how it was reported at the time.

Slater rowed back on it to be the more in line with the Bloomberg article that Pace was equally dismissive of but which has proven to be quite accurate -

[Nori1958]

I've nothing against Pace, and how the football side of the club has been run since his arrival.

I've no idea if it's legally allowed, but the financial situation will have changed since the accounting period, could be better, could be worse, loans could have been renegotiated, so it would be good for him to come out and explain the current position, like I say, if it's allowed.

[BurnleyFC]

You wanted Garlick to go, you wanted the takeover to happen.
Now you spend your time complaining about the new owners.

I think the phrase is "be careful what you wish for"

Garlick did terrific things for us, but I absolutely wanted him to go at the end. Things between him and Dyche were toxic and showed no signs of abating and I think we’d have been relegated regardless. What I didn’t expect him to do was sell out to a bunch of skint American chancers, lining his own pockets in the process. But then again, he’s no Barry Kilby.

By the way, has your mate Alan made us a bigger global brand than Land Rover yet?

[Chester Perry]

I've nothing against Pace, and how the football side of the club has been run since his arrival.

I've no idea if it's legally allowed, but the financial situation will have changed since the accounting period, could be better, could be worse, loans could have been renegotiated, so it would be good for him to come out and explain the current position, like I say, if it's allowed.

I have seen nothing to indicate the financial situation is better - and part of that is down to the football side

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Garlick did terrific things for us, but I absolutely wanted him to go at the end. Things between him and Dyche were toxic and showed no signs of abating and I think we’d have been relegated regardless. What I didn’t expect him to do was sell out to a bunch of skint American chancers, lining his own pockets in the process. But then again, he’s no Barry Kilby.

By the way, has your mate Alan made us a bigger global brand than Land Rover yet?

At the end?
2-3 years prior to the takeover you were wanting him out and rinsing him where possible on here.
That was not towards the end, you've had it in for him for years for whatever reason, but now you're crying about the new owners just as much.

[BurnleyFC]

At the end?
2-3 years prior to the takeover you were wanting him out and rinsing him where possible on here.
That was not towards the end, you've had it in for him for years for whatever reason, but now you're crying about the new owners just as much.

Nonsense. I’ve ‘had it in for him’, as you say, since our manager started calling him out on things in public.

[gandhisflipflop]

Pace is a bullshitter. Pure and simple.

What has he bullshitted about?

[ClaretTony]

By the way, has your mate Alan made us a bigger global brand than Land Rover yet?

He was driving a Range Rover last night

[BurnleyFC]

What has he bullshitted about?

When he was called out by the press (The Athletic, I seem to remember?) about the way in which the takeover was structured, he basically rubbished their article.

It’s since turned out to be incredibly accurate.

[ClaretPete001]

What has he bullshitted about?

I suppose it is matter of opinion but I'm not sure the fans are saying this: I’d be like ‘good on them, they’ve done a great thing for this club’.”
____________________________________________________________________________________________
Pace passionately explained the loan in as much detail as he could with the local press on Tuesday, saying:

“I would tell you the way that we have done this, I am absolutely positively certain, it has never been done in the same way ever before, and has everything to do with making the fan base comfortable that this is the most sustainable form of what we could have done - bar none.

”I think people will realise that over time, we can’t speak about it for a whole bunch of reasons, but if I was in front of a number of fans at any given time, I can put my hand on my heart, look them in the eye and say ‘you should be proud of the way that this club has done what it has done, and you should be happy with knowing where it can go and will go, with the structures that have been put in place.

”I don’t mean to be over-dramatic, I can’t explain it, but if you know, you’d be like ‘oh my goodness, this is incredible’.

”You’re taking a mortgage - you don’t think twice about taking a mortgage for your house. But, it really does depend on which mortgage you take, how much you take, and what’s the structure and interest rate.

”Those are minor points, but it also depends on who you take it from, and what you do. All those things have a play, but hopefully someday people will look back and say this was pretty incredible.

”As a supporter, if I understood it the way I understand it, I’d be like ‘good on them, they’ve done a great thing for this club’.”

[Bordeauxclaret]

He was driving a Range Rover last night

Did you criticise his driving?

[NewClaret]

He was driving a Range Rover last night

Must have a bit of dosh then

[aggi]

Every media report I have seen says that the club has refused to answer questions on the accounts - noticed this from Matt Slater on twitter though

https://twitter.com/mjshrimper/status/1 ... Xe2Z8qAAAA

I remember just how smug Pace was at the time, saying it was all wrong - when actually a lot was close to the truth

It was a much more careful denial than that. They said the financial details were wrong (which technically they were), not that the gist of it was wrong.

And obviously then followed up with the somewhat Trumpian it's an amazing deal, the fans would love it, never been done before spiel.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Nonsense. I’ve ‘had it in for him’, as you say, since our manager started calling him out on things in public.

British Icon Index puts the PL above Land Rover btw.

So the club doesn't need to have a higher brand than LR, just needs to take advantage of the fact we're currently part of a brand that is.
This is something I've said several times but it seems to go over some peoples heads.

[ClaretTony]

Did you criticise his driving?

Strange comment

[RVclaret]

Did you criticise his driving?

[gawthorpe_view]

Must have a bit of dosh then

Company car?

[Nori1958]

I have seen nothing to indicate the financial situation is better - and part of that is down to the football side

What could you see? Nothing has been published has it?

[Nori1958]

Strange comment

Only a guess, but he probably thinks you've criticised everything else he's done... Not the funniest thing I've read, but each to their own.

[Newcastleclaret93]

It's ace when you just throw that out about RSL without fleshing it out.

It just proves that trying to educate you is an absolute waste of time.

I have fleshed it out numerous times.

It is you that keeps making them out to be something else.

Answer this with a simple yes or no. Did they leave RSL in a good financial condition?

[Chester Perry]

What could you see? Nothing has been published has it?

lets see - off the top of my head

- No new investors and stage payments having to be made from club funds
- factoring a recent transfer out to improve cash flow at time when a stage payment of similar value was just coming overdue
- lots of empty seats also in hospitality areas
- lack of any significant revenue generating initiatives 16 months after taking control and saying they had a well worked set of plans and a very significant increase in non football staff
- no major new sponsorship deals announced to supplement existing ones (and some of those are drawing to a close as well)
- the cost of dismissing (and replacing a management team that had recently signed new deals)
- interest rates on existing loan increasing
- cash holding reducing substantially, with a clear indication being used to pay for the club not developing it

[bfcjg]

It is all very worrying.

[NewClaret]

CP - how do you know a) what the stage payments are, and b) when they’re due? Is this documented somewhere?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I have fleshed it out numerous times.

It is you that keeps making them out to be something else.

Answer this with a simple yes or no. Did they leave RSL in a good financial condition?

Ah so you're going to try and attempt to narrow the parameters to suit your agenda because you don't want anything else to be considered.

I'm not playing this game with you, because it's pointless and a waste of time

[RVclaret]

lets see - off the top of my head

- No new investors and stage payments having to be made from club funds
- factoring a recent transfer out to improve cash flow at time when a stage payment of similar value was just coming overdue
- lots of empty seats also in hospitality areas
- lack of any significant revenue generating initiatives 16 months after taking control and saying they had a well worked set of plans and a very significant increase in non football staff
- no major new sponsorship deals announced to supplement existing ones (and some of those are drawing to a close as well)
- the cost of dismissing (and replacing a management team that had recently signed new deals)
- interest rates on existing loan increasing
- cash holding reducing substantially, with a clear indication being used to pay for the club not developing it

To offer a more optimistic view of your valid points:

- Pace suggested there is the possibility of investment from China in the summer
- the factored out payment could be for anything including funds for the summer / pay off some of the 65m loan
- empty seats in lots of PL grounds, standard of football been dire on the Turf this season
- LED signage is a new revenue generating idea, we don’t know how much extra commercial rev that’s brought in this season
- no new sponsorship deals don’t make accounts worse, just not better
- we don’t know what the terms of their deals were / clauses involved and what agreements have been made since
- interest rates have increased marginally and even so they might have hedged the risk of increasing rates
- cash holding decreased, well we know that from these accounts just published

So just providing a bit more balance to your negative tone as I know lots of people look to you for guidance (including me).

You also fail to add

- revenues should be higher across the board as there’s been no covid hit this year, no tv rebate
- if we are relegated the wage bill would be even less than last season due to no ‘staying up bonus’ being paid out
- we received a decent tax credit due to the new debt
- we now have more saleable playing assets due to good recruitment by ALK last summer

Above are just off the top of my head.

[daveisaclaret]

Do you think asking an interim manager who is 100% focused on the next game and keeping us in the league, about a complex set of accounts he probably knows nothing about, would be a good thing or bad thing?

The thing is, the answer from MJ would obviously have been "I'm the interim manager and I don't know anything about the accounts" so the only way the question being asked could be a bad thing is if the question itself is damning and the club don't want it heard.

[Chester Perry]

CP - how do you know a) what the stage payments are, and b) when they’re due? Is this documented somewhere?

hearsay, but from a trusted source - though it is reasonably easy to work out what the broad annual commitment is from released information

definitely not documented specifically in the public domain other than that I have previously shared - Freight Investor Holdings Limited accounts

[aggi]

...

As for ALK, I was more positive prior to the takeover because the opinions I was getting proved not to be the reality of the situation.

I'm not really singling you out, just a convenient comment, but during the takeover a lot of people had a pretty rosy outlook on what a takeover by American private equity really meant.

[Chester Perry]

To offer a more optimistic view of your valid points:

- Pace suggested there is the possibility of investment from China in the summer
- the factored out payment could be for anything including funds for the summer / pay off some of the 65m loan
- empty seats in lots of PL grounds, standard of football been dire on the Turf this season
- LED signage is a new revenue generating idea, we don’t know how much extra commercial rev that’s brought in this season
- no new sponsorship deals don’t make accounts worse, just not better
- we don’t know what the terms of their deals were / clauses involved and what agreements have been made since
- interest rates have increased marginally and even so they might have hedged the risk of increasing rates
- cash holding decreased, well we know that from these accounts just published

So just providing a bit more balance to your negative tone as I know lots of people look to you for guidance (including me).

You also fail to add

- revenues should be higher across the board as there’s been no covid hit this year, no tv rebate
- if we are relegated the wage bill would be even less than last season due to no ‘staying up bonus’ being paid out
- we received a decent tax credit due to the new debt
- we now have more saleable playing assets due to good recruitment by ALK last summer

Above are just off the top of my head.

I am a voice not guidance

there are additional costs associated with your upsides - it comes down to margins and cashflow and today's news suggests that is being squeezed somewhat

it comes down to whether you believe assets are being sweated or you think that the club is in difficulty and I can argue both cases without coming to a definitive answer at this time.