England vs Hungary

[martin_p]

Exactly 1 up against Croatia 2018 didn't win.
1 up against Holland 2019 didn't win.
1 up against Italy 2021 didn't win,

Does anybody see a pattern forming under Southgate, England can't hack it when the going gets tough late in tournaments, 3 times in winning positions, and 3 times blew it.

As happened in other tournaments pre Southgate. At least it’s happening later in tournaments now.

[Darthlaw]

I like this narrative, we only played shite teams in the Euros right. So where were the good teams?

Portugal, Belgium, Spain?

Italy knocked them all out.

[Top Claret]

At least we're in semi finals and finals of tournaments...


It's about winning not coming 2nd

You obviously suffer from acute loser syndrome

[tiger76]

As happened in other tournaments pre Southgate. At least it’s happening later in tournaments now.

It is but lessons aren't being learned are they, and a top manager would realise what the problem was and rectify it.

[KRBFC]

Portugal, Belgium, Spain?

Italy knocked them all out.

Croatia almost beat Spain, pushed them to the brink. We beat them comfortably.
Portugal were not a good side, they were all over the place despite being my pre tournament winner.

Belgium are a good side we avoided. France should be favourites for every tournament but underperformed.\

Other sides failing isn't England's fault, you can only beat what's put in front of you and we certainly beat good sides who were playing well. You say Italy beat all of those sides, we were probably just the better side against Italy across the 120 minutes, was a tight game, the most difficult match Italy had.

[KRBFC]

Teams don't just turn up from nowhere and win tournaments, it's a steady progress thing. You have to be in and around the latter stages to gain that experience and belief to take forward.

[KRBFC]

It is but lessons aren't being learned are they, and a top manager would realise what the problem was and rectify it.

what are you basing this on? lessons aren't being learned?

We qualified for the WC no issue, didn't lose a game. The scary brilliant exciting Hungary side were 4th in the same group.

Italy aren't at the WC and Portugal had to go through the playoffs.

[martin_p]

It is but lessons aren't being learned are they, and a top manager would realise what the problem was and rectify it.

But what if the problem is that you haven’t got great players in every position? A great manager rectifies that by buying new players, you can’t do that at international level.

[tiger76]

what are you basing this on? lessons aren't being learned?

We qualified for the WC no issue, didn't lose a game. The scary brilliant exciting Hungary side were 4th in the same group.

Italy aren't at the WC and Portugal had to go through the playoffs.

We always qualify easily, the issues are when we get to the business end of tournaments, and then meet quality sides, that's when England's shortcomings are ruthlessly exposed.

Thanks for backing up my argument that neither Hungary or Italy are that good, just demonstrates how big an opportunity England had last summer, home tournament, relatively favourable draw, and yet we still couldn't get over the line with all those advantages.

Qatar will present a much sterner challenge, and GS won't keep getting lucky draws.

Yes it's good that England are now making the latter stages of major comps, but nobody will remember who came 2nd, and with the resources and talent at his disposal Southgate should be making it to the latter stages, it's making that final step to actually win something that's the toughest leap, and on current evidence I can't see this England squad achieving that unfortunately.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Teams don't just turn up from nowhere and win tournaments, it's a steady progress thing. You have to be in and around the latter stages to gain that experience and belief to take forward.

Like Greece and Denmark winning the Euros, Denmark even failed to qualify and still won it

[Darthlaw]

Croatia almost beat Spain, pushed them to the brink. We beat them comfortably.
Portugal were not a good side, they were all over the place despite being my pre tournament winner.

Belgium are a good side we avoided. France should be favourites for every tournament but underperformed.\

Other sides failing isn't England's fault, you can only beat what's put in front of you and we certainly beat good sides who were playing well. You say Italy beat all of those sides, we were probably just the better side against Italy across the 120 minutes, was a tight game, the most difficult match Italy had.

Interesting excuses:
Croatia almost beat Spain - Denmark almost beat England. Croatia were also a shadow of the team that knocked out England a few years earlier.
Portugal were not a good side - Neither were Germany (North Macedonia result?)

You asked where all the good sides were and I pointed it out. Italy were deserved winners who beat good sides all the way.
England meanwhile got to the final through a VERY favourable draw and (as per usual with a Southgate team) were found wanting against decent opposition.

No amount of beating the likes of Panama, Tunisia, Ukraine, Sweden & Denmark will convince me otherwise with Southgate. Not even narrow wins against Czechia, Croatia or a whooping of a poor German side.

We ain’t going to get anyone better so might as well let him carry on, though.

[martin_p]

Interesting excuses:
Croatia almost beat Spain - Denmark almost beat England. Croatia were also a shadow of the team that knocked out England a few years earlier.
Portugal were not a good side - Neither were Germany (North Macedonia result?)

You asked where all the good sides were and I pointed it out. Italy were deserved winners who beat good sides all the way.
England meanwhile got to the final through a VERY favourable draw and (as per usual with a Southgate team) were found wanting against decent opposition.

No amount of beating the likes of Panama, Tunisia, Ukraine, Sweden & Denmark will convince me otherwise with Southgate. Not even narrow wins against Czechia, Croatia or a whooping of a poor German side.

We ain’t going to get anyone better so might as well let him carry on, though.

When you say ‘found wanting’ I presume you mean ‘lost in the lottery that is the penalty shootout against the team who were (your words) ‘deserved winners’?

[KRBFC]

We always qualify easily, the issues are when we get to the business end of tournaments, and then meet quality sides, that's when England's shortcomings are ruthlessly exposed.

Thanks for backing up my argument that neither Hungary or Italy are that good, just demonstrates how big an opportunity England had last summer, home tournament, relatively favourable draw, and yet we still couldn't get over the line with all those advantages.

Qatar will present a much sterner challenge, and GS won't keep getting lucky draws.

Yes it's good that England are now making the latter stages of major comps, but nobody will remember who came 2nd, and with the resources and talent at his disposal Southgate should be making it to the latter stages, it's making that final step to actually win something that's the toughest leap, and on current evidence I can't see this England squad achieving that unfortunately.

I don't get this lucky draw thing, I thought we played some decent sides. Was impressed with Denmark, the Czechs knocked out Holland, Croatia pushed Spain all the way, We pushed Italy all the way. Germany are a tournament pedigree nation, beat them. I can see the easier draw thing in the World Cup but not the Euros.

I think you expecting England to win tournaments is naive, there are better squads out there. We have absolutely no right to win a trophy we've never won before.

[tiger76]

But what if the problem is that you haven’t got great players in every position? A great manager rectifies that by buying new players, you can’t do that at international level.

Of course you can't, but most pundits would say this current England squad is packed with quality in most areas, and it just needs moulding to be contending and winning tournaments, I had high hopes Southgate would in time start to build this young squad into genuine contenders for EC and WC, but I'm now having serious doubts about him since the defeat in the Euro's final, and it's worrying that England don't appear to have a settled system or personnel presently.

And just as winning is a habit so is losing, and it's hardly ideal preparation for a WC to be playing poorly and losing games, especially in the wretched manner England did last night.

Can Southgate turn it around perhaps, but he'll need to do so quickly, otherwise the knives will be out for him.

[KRBFC]

Like Greece and Denmark winning the Euros, Denmark even failed to qualify and still won it

You named 2 in history, typically it's the same pool of nations winning tournaments, not too dissimilar from the UCL. There must be a reason England have never won the Euro Champs.

[Carport]

Time to thank GS for developing the England side into a team that can get to the latter stages of tournaments but replace him with a proven winner like Ancelloti.

[KRBFC]

Of course you can't, but most pundits would say this current England squad is packed with quality in most areas, and it just needs moulding to be contending and winning tournaments, I had high hopes Southgate would in time start to build this young squad into genuine contenders for EC and WC, but I'm now having serious doubts about him since the defeat in the Euro's final, and it's worrying that England don't appear to have a settled system or personnel presently.

And just as winning is a habit so is losing, and it's hardly ideal preparation for a WC to be playing poorly and losing games, especially in the wretched manner England did last night.

Can Southgate turn it around perhaps, but he'll need to do so quickly, otherwise the knives will be out for him.

We were contending to win tournaments.... therefor Southgate has built this side into tournament contenders......

England do have a settled system and team, this Nations league was a chance for the big nations to rotate and change it up, not sure how you're missing this.

[Swizzlestick]

Southgate deserves to stay on for the World Cup at least - poor recently but the facts are he’s taken his to the semi final and final of two major tournaments. The lengths some people have gone to in this thread to downplay this really is quite something. Even the Germany victory. It’s not our fault if the other big guns can’t beat their opposition.

[KRBFC]

Netherlands had their 2nd string out against Wales, even Wales had their 2nd team out too.

I couldn't name some of the players in the Italian squad and I'm an expert in this field

[claretonthecoast1882]

You named 2 in history, typically it's the same pool of nations winning tournaments, not too dissimilar from the UCL. There must be a reason England have never won the Euro Champs.

Correct I did name 2 to have done it in the last 30 years, in response to you saying none do it

[Rowls]

I think Klopp is one of the best managers in the world and he'd be great as England manager

Christ, I'd sack Southgate right now if we could replace him with Klopp

But there isn't anyone in that class available internationally is there?

Dyche's record is light years ahead of Southgate's.

[Lancasterclaret]

Dyche's record is light years ahead of Southgate's.

I think Dyche would be great for England

But I also think he won't get it, and the fanbase that we have would give him no time at all

[Swizzlestick]

Personally think Dyche would despise international management. And Lancaster is right, take a look at what other fans think of him - still considered a dinosaur with limited tactics. Would have zero leeway.

[tiger76]

We were contending to win tournaments.... therefor Southgate has built this side into tournament contenders......

England do have a settled system and team, this Nations league was a chance for the big nations to rotate and change it up, not sure how you're missing this.

I do agree we're now contending in tournaments, which given the last 30 years or so is an improvement, however we wasted a huge chance to lift the EC last summer, and I fear this WC might deal us a reality check, as surely the likes of Brazil and Argentina will relish the hot climate more than many of the European nations, this is one reason why I don't expect England too fare well this winter, as it'll incredibly difficult to impose our pressing style in those conditions.

I'm prepared to give Southgate this WC and the 2024 Euro's, but if he hasn't delivered success by then it might well be time to look at a successor.

He's not done a bad job, but I can't help feel he could have done better given the strength in depth England now possess.

All about opinions of course and you and others may well disagree.

[Darthlaw]

When you say ‘found wanting’ I presume you mean ‘lost in the lottery that is the penalty shootout against the team who were (your words) ‘deserved winners’?

No, I mean found wanting.

Or am I forgetting how well we played and the deluge of chances created after Shaw’s goal?

[Jamesy]

He’s a better club manager without a doubt, but international manager is a very different skill set. You only have a set pool of players, you only get to train with them a few weeks a season and I suspect you spend the intervening periods with nothing much to do other than attend matches to watch two or three potential players at once. I think Klopp might struggle in that environment. If you look at history’s greatest club managers not many of them had massive success at international level (if they even gave it a go).

You are not a neighbour of Southgate’s are you in leafy Harrogate?

[Rowls]

But I also think he won't get it, and the fanbase that we have would give him no time at all

Quite agree here.

The annoying thing is that so much of fan opinion is based on myths that persist of him being a "hoofball merchant" rather than somebody who was pragmatically playing to win with limited resources.

The manager who is in hock to "ideaology" who is unable to amend his style is Southgate with his slow, sideways passing tactics. They failed completely at Middlesbrough and they're failing at England too.

I always feared a good international side would tear us apart and embarrass us. How wrong I was! It only took a very average team.

[Rowls]

Personally think Dyche would despise international management. And Lancaster is right, take a look at what other fans think of him - still considered a dinosaur with limited tactics. Would have zero leeway.

I suspect he'd prefer the day-to-day contact of club management but I think he'd burst with pride to be England manager.

After what he achieved at Burnley he should be a strong contender but I think muddled and wrong-headed thinking will prevent him even being properly considered.

[Lancasterclaret]

Quite agree here.

The annoying thing is that so much of fan opinion is based on myths that persist of him being a "hoofball merchant" rather than somebody who was pragmatically playing to win with limited resources.

The manager who is in hock to "ideaology" who is unable to amend his style is Southgate with his slow, sideways passing tactics. They failed completely at Middlesbrough and they're failing at England too.

I always feared a good international side would tear us apart and embarrass us. How wrong I was - it only took a very average team to exploit our weaknesses and do this.

I think that people read too much into one game

We keep hold of the ball, and we attack well when we are on it, but we weren't remotely on it last night, and it was a clearly knackered side with some terrible individual performances

Southgate (like Dyche) is too loyal to some players who are clearly really struggling and that is something he really needs to sort

[Rowls]

I think that people read too much into one game

We keep hold of the ball, and we attack well when we are on it, but we weren't remotely on it last night, and it was a clearly knackered side with some terrible individual performances

Southgate (like Dyche) is too loyal to some players who are clearly really struggling and that is something he really needs to sort

It isn't one game with Southgate.

He has played the same flat, passionless football since day one. It was evident with his Middlesbrough side as well as his England U21 side and now the England team.

Key features of his style are a massive drop off in chances created (and goals scored) from open play. Aimless passing around at the back. Getting caught in possession while playing the ball around at the back. Not being organized in defence. Poor or non-existant marking.

The only one of these faults that you could say has been evident in Dyche's sides is sometimes an inability to create chances. But in Dyche's case it would be when a team of Championship level players are playing a well organized world class side. Southgate's England often fail to create chances when that is the inverse, as was the case last night.

I've been saying this since the day Southgate was appointed. It's not due to a single game. These faults have been evident even when the results went our way.

[MrTopTier]

Potter and Pochetino joint favourites.

Pot Southgate now and Poch could take over short term for the World Cup.

[chekhov]

Why comment at all if it's just to correct to and too!?

Glad you did I'll sleep better tonight knowing your the grammar king

Apologies. Didn’t mean to offend. Sometimes I can’t help myself.

[KRBFC]

Key features of his style are a massive drop off in chances created (and goals scored) from open play. Aimless passing around at the back. Getting caught in possession while playing the ball around at the back. Not being organized in defence. Poor or non-existant marking.


I've been saying this since the day Southgate was appointed. It's not due to a single game. These faults have been evident even when the results went our way.

Bore off and don't watch then if you have been saying it since he was appointed you were never gonna give him a chance. We can always go back to Capello/Sven if you want? knocked out early in tournaments, or like under Mclaren and Roy not qualifying or embarrassed on the world stage. The defence has been water tight under Southgate in major tournaments, how many goals did we concede in the Euros? 2? The fact you even mention his Middlesbrough side from 20 years ago is an embarrassment in itself, cast judgement on results at major tournaments or give it a rest with your anti England bias.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Imagine making an early judgment on a manager and then refusing to change it even after years of success.

[KRBFC]

I suspect he'd prefer the day-to-day contact of club management but I think he'd burst with pride to be England manager.

After what he achieved at Burnley he should be a strong contender but I think muddled and wrong-headed thinking will prevent him even being properly considered.

Imagine complaining about Southgate for boring football then suggesting Dyche as an alternative, lmaooo god you're strange

[Sproggy]

It isn't one game with Southgate.

He has played the same flat, passionless football since day one. It was evident with his Middlesbrough side as well as his England U21 side and now the England team.

Key features of his style are a massive drop off in chances created (and goals scored) from open play. Aimless passing around at the back. Getting caught in possession while playing the ball around at the back. Not being organized in defence. Poor or non-existant marking.

I've been saying this since the day Southgate was appointed. It's not due to a single game. These faults have been evident even when the results went our way.

He started off OK - that win in Spain where we sat in and scored on the couter was great. We looked like we had a plan.

As expectation has grown, he seems to have become more and more conservative and tied to his favourites. The four games in the NL have been awful (the worst since since Italy, which was the worst since Scotland etc.). It's so defensive and ponderous at the moment that it's almost unwatchable. Your "key points" paragraph is spot on - I just don't think it has always been quite this bad.

[Rowls]

Imagine making an early judgment on a manager and then refusing to change it even after years of success.

If this is a reference to me then the truth is that I was very open to changing my mind. His opening games looked promising but he's since reverted to type.

It's not a case of sticking obstinately with an opinion, it's a case of constantly testing that opinion.

Do Southgate's England still pass too much at the back? Yes.
Do they get caught in possession doing this? Yes.
Is there too much emphasis on passing sideways at the back? Yes.
Do the players constantly talk about 'patience' as if that's a key skill in the game? Yes.
Do they struggle to create chances from open play? Massive YES!
Is the marking in defence woeful? Yes.
Is the back four often out of shape? Yes.
Do players 'press' for possession in ones and twos rather than as an effective unit of 4 or 5 players? Yes.
Are the tactics conservative and defensive, even against poorer sides? Yes.
Is it often difficult to work out what kind of tactics we're playing? Yes.
Does the gameplan change constantly? Yes.
Is there only the vaguest hints of a playing style and a lack of consistency? Yes.

These are the hallmarks of Gareth Southgate's sides.
I picked out the item I've bolded last summer as part of my criticism of his work as we got to the final of the Euros. I picked it because you can measure it via 'shots on target' which means it can objectively shown to be true whereas many of the others are subjective. Go and find out how many chances and goals his Middlesbrough side created. It's the exact same problem and he's somehow created a side who can't even fashion shot on goal out of some of the best and most creative players on the planet.

I think I'm very fair on him. He's clearly intelligent and likeable. He's done great work in improving set pieces with England and we're very threatening from them.

He's clearly created a good atmosphere in the camp which is a vital ingredient if you're going to stand a good chance of winning a tournament.

He has (very rarely) been willing to change his tactics and he's had some success with this. Notably the 3-2 win against Spain when they were very dominant which relied on us playing a proper kind of direct 'hoofball'.

The problem with Southgate is that it looks to me like he views football as a game of chess. It isn't.

Overall, I think he's a dreadful, awful, abysmal manager. I truly do. I'll change that opinion if he changes but as I've said, all of the faults listed above were evident in his MIddlesbrough side, were evident in his U21 side and they're more and more evident in his England side.

We've just been tonked (let's not beat about the bush - we were soundly THRASHED) by a side whose best players are Championship, or worse. The England players are far superior in every aspect of their play. There isn't a single Hungarian who would make the England squad, nevermind the starting 11.

The only way the Hungarian team are better is that they played with coherent tactics and had a clear gameplan which they implemented as a team. That's it.

It's the equivalent of Barnsley last season travelling to the Etihad and thrashing Man City 4-0 without City even fashioning so much as a single clear cut chance. That's how bad it was.

[Rowls]

He started off OK - that win in Spain where we sat in and scored on the couter was great. We looked like we had a plan.

Was typing about the Spain game as you replied... (see above)

[KRBFC]

He started off OK - that win in Spain where we sat in and scored on the couter was great. We looked like we had a plan.

As expectation has grown, he seems to have become more and more conservative and tied to his favourites. The four games in the NL have been awful (the worst since since Italy, which was the worst since Scotland etc.). It's so defensive and ponderous at the moment that it's almost unwatchable. Your "key points" paragraph is spot on - I just don't think it has always been quite this bad.

The NL he hasn't used his favourites only, maybe he should go back to using those favourites all the time because Bowen, Guehi, Gallagher, Tomori and all of these inform players didn't cover themselves in glory.

[KRBFC]

We've just been tonked (let's not beat about the bush - we were soundly THRASHED) by a side whose best players are Championship, or worse. The England players are far superior in every aspect of their play. There isn't a single Hungarian who would make the England squad, nevermind the starting 11.

The only way the Hungarian team are better is that they played with coherent tactics and had a clear gameplan which they implemented as a team. That's it.

It's the equivalent of Barnsley last season travelling to the Etihad and thrashing Man City 4-0 without City even fashioning so much as a single clear cut chance. That's how bad it was.

It's a pre-season friendly you donut, we trounced this lot 4-0 in WC qualifying ( a game that mattered where we played our first 11). As for not a single Hungarian player would make the England squad, Szoboszlai is one of the elite young talents in world football, highly highly rated.

The other nonsense about defending being poor, didn't we set some kind of clean sheet record during the Euros? You're talking about England's 3rd team in a preseason friendly. You complain about boring football then offer Dyche an alternative almost as embarrassing as you thinking a striker can be offside when the defender passes the ball to them

https://www.mailplus.co.uk/edition/spor ... since-1966

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Hypothetically who would you get in if you could pot Southgate? Even though this league format is a waste of time and energy it doesn’t bode well for the World Cup does it.

It would be Harry Redknapp or fat Sam for me, seems the fa don’t like bung takers but beggars can’t be choosers

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

Used to like watching spurs under Redknapp, we could do a lot worse. Southgates football makes me want to pull my eyes out.

[Roosterbooster]

Out of interest, what would your England starting XI be?

For me it's either:

.....................Pickford
..........Walker Stones James
TAA.........................................Saka
.........................Rice
........Mount Grealish Foden
........................Kane

Or:

..............Pickford
TAA Stones Maguire James
...........Rice Phillips
...............Mount
.....Foden Kane Grealish