Academy

[NottsClaret]

Everything is going to s**t.

[aggi]

This is what the accounts had to say about staff turnover, there has been a very distinct change in focus - remember this was just the first 7 months there have been plenty of changes since the end of last July - Under Pepper our Academy staffing had risen to almost 100 to facilitate the rise to Cat 1 (i.e. just to get there not stay there)

- Football staff reduced by 23 to 133
- Permanent sales, administration and ancillary staff increased by 39 (split 19:20 between full and part time) to 134 (split 85:49).

The first thing I'd wonder when looking at those figures would be whether some roles had been recategorised.

[Leisure]

Everything is going to s**t.

Really!

[Newcastleclaret93]

Really!

Going to **** might be strong, but I would suggest the success and legacy of the previous ownership/manager is quickly being eroded away.

If we end up selling everyone to pay off debt and become a low end championship team then all of that success was for nothing

[The Enclosure]

VK seems to me the sort of man who does not suffer fools gladly.I believe if things are not done exactly how he wants them done, then he will certainly make his feelings known.
He has had a great mentor in Pep and am sure a lot of that will have rubbed off on VK.
Exciting times.

[boatshed bill]

Going to **** might be strong, but I would suggest the success and legacy of the previous ownership/manager is quickly being eroded away.

If we end up selling everyone to pay off debt and become a low end championship team then all of that success was for nothing

Unfortunately, you don't find many Barry Kilbys these days.

[BurnleyHeff]

Going to **** might be strong, but I would suggest the success and legacy of the previous ownership/manager is quickly being eroded away.

If we end up selling everyone to pay off debt and become a low end championship team then all of that success was for nothing

Forget the doom and deal with the transition.

[JarrowClaret]

https://twitter.com/ground_guru/status/ ... rBPQyZvHTA

See update I have no idea what is happening and we may have been downgraded but it seems there are still question marks!

[Leisure]

Going to **** might be strong, but I would suggest the success and legacy of the previous ownership/manager is quickly being eroded away.

If we end up selling everyone to pay off debt and become a low end championship team then all of that success was for nothing

We won't sell everyone.

[Mattster]

PL2 fixtures have been postponed, due out last week but should be out this week. Wonder if it's the extra details around our "letter of mitigation" holding up the process as to whether we're involved or not.

[Mattster]

PL2 fixtures have been postponed, due out last week but should be out this week. Wonder if it's the extra details around our "letter of mitigation" holding up the process as to whether we're involved or not.

Postponed another week. Hopefully this is due to us as it means there's still a chance we keep Cat 1

[rufus lumley]

It's the hope that kills you.

[Top Claret]

I don't think acadamy status is the bee hole and end hole.

Picking up players at 19 & 20 from lower League clubs who are showing true potential and giving them an opportunity at higher level is the way forward, not persevering and spending millions on an academy that has only produced Dwight McNeil

[Newcastleclaret93]

I don't think acadamy status is the bee hole and end hole.

Picking up players at 19 & 20 from lower League clubs who are showing true potential and giving them an opportunity at higher level is the way forward, not persevering and spending millions on an academy that has only produced Dwight McNeil

That’s a very short sited view.

We could potentially be in a position where we can’t afford top league 1 young talent. The academy (now it’s finally at a decent standard) would be the life blood of the club in that circumstance

[Mattster]

I don't think acadamy status is the bee hole and end hole.

Picking up players at 19 & 20 from lower League clubs who are showing true potential and giving them an opportunity at higher level is the way forward, not persevering and spending millions on an academy that has only produced Dwight McNeil

Disagree, it is the "bee hole and end hole" because being lower than Category 1 leaves you wide open to get your players poached by Cat 1 academies for a pittance, makes it harder to pick up the better players from lower Category academies, means our young players face a lower level of competition and means we're a less attractive prospect to the better youngsters in the local area.

Can't really hold the end product of the academy to account when it's only been Cat 1 for two years, these young lads don't appear from thin air in the U18s.

[RVclaret]

That’s a very short sited view.

We could potentially be in a position where we can’t afford top league 1 young talent. The academy (now it’s finally at a decent standard) would be the life blood of the club in that circumstance

Is running a cat 1 academy sustainable at this level?

Didn’t you say the costs are more than 4.5m per season?

Aren’t Blackburn the only cat 1 academy outside of the top flight? And they’ve had it funded by the Venkys (who they in 200m worth of debt to).

[Newcastleclaret93]

Is running a cat 1 academy sustainable at this level?

Didn’t you say the costs are more than 4.5m per season?

Aren’t Blackburn the only cat 1 academy outside of the top flight? And they’ve had it funded by the Venkys (who they in 200m worth of debt to).

I believe the following are:

Stoke, reading, West Brom, Boro, Sunderland, Norwich, Blackburn, Derby and recently Birmingham and Burnley.

Forrest have it but they have just been promoted.

[Mattster]

Is running a cat 1 academy sustainable at this level?

Didn’t you say the costs are more than 4.5m per season?

Aren’t Blackburn the only cat 1 academy outside of the top flight? And they’ve had it funded by the Venkys (who they in 200m worth of debt to).

Derby, Blackburn, West Brom, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Norwich, Stoke, Reading all have Cat 1 academies from outside the EPL.

[RVclaret]

Derby, Blackburn, West Brom, Middlesbrough, Sunderland, Norwich, Stoke, Reading all have Cat 1 academies from outside the EPL.

Cheers - think it was a Rovers fan that told me that, lying bugger!

But still, all those clubs listed run on huge losses every year don’t they?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Is running a cat 1 academy sustainable at this level?

Didn’t you say the costs are more than 4.5m per season?

Aren’t Blackburn the only cat 1 academy outside of the top flight? And they’ve had it funded by the Venkys (who they in 200m worth of debt to).

The costs vary, depending on which standard of Cat 1 a club wants.
I believe Rovers pay the minimum amount for a lower entry Cat 1.
The key aim is producing players that either make it into the first team, or can be sold for an amount that cover the running costs of the academy.

Rovers have a centre back who's being eyed up by Spurs, valued at £5-8 million I read.
That single sale helps keep their academy going, but if they sold 3-4 players for £2-3 million each then it's the same end result.
Alternatively if they produce players who regularly make the first team then that's less of an outlay on transfers for the club, leaving said money free to help fund the academy.

Also the academy funding isn't included in FFP I'm vaguely recalling, but I'd have to check.

[Top Claret]

I read somewhere that academy 1 costs a minimum of 5 million a year to run and if this is the case it costs far to much and produces little talent in our case.

Brentford closed there acadamy because it wasn't cost effective and If we are following there model we could be heading in the same direction

[claretonthecoast1882]

I read somewhere that academy 1 costs a minimum of 5 million a year to run and if this is the case it costs far to much and produces little talent in our case

How long has the Academy been Cat 1 ? We basically had to start from scratch. Most people involved in this side of the game tell you it is best part of 10 years from starting before you see consistent results, it isn't an overnight thing which some seem to expect.

[Top Claret]

How long has the Academy been Cat 1 ? We basically had to start from scratch. Most people involved in this side of the game tell you it is best part of 10 years from starting before you see consistent results, it isn't an overnight thing which some seem to expect.

That's fine if you can afford it.

With these owners it doesn't make any sense we need to cut our cloth accordingly and this is not the way forward for a club with out finances, it's nothing but a gamble

[claretonthecoast1882]

That's fine if you can afford it.

With these owners it doesn't make any sense we need to cut our cloth accordingly and this is not the way forward for a club with out finances, it's nothing but a gamble

What is the way forward for as you describe "a club without finances"

[Mattster]

I read somewhere that academy 1 costs a minimum of 5 million a year to run and if this is the case it costs far to much and produces little talent in our case.

Brentford closed there acadamy because it wasn't cost effective and If we are following there model we could be heading in the same direction

There's no fixed minimum, but the last report I can find said a Cat 1 academy will cost somewhere between £2.5m and £5m per year to run based on the staffing levels and facility requirements.

Brentford have had to reopen their academy due to the Premier Leagues rules, it will cost a lot more to build one up again from scratch than maintain one.

[boyyanno]

Things are not running well behind the scenes at Youth level in the club. I've no idea if we will retain Cat 1 but staffing is definitely a problem. The club has been trying to cancel training sessions for the younger age ranges due to a shortage of coaches. I'm told that due to the diligence of some of the stuff auxiliary coaches have been used to keep things ticking over.

[Top Claret]

What is the way forward for as you describe "a club without finances"

The way forward is our new strategy to use the money to pick up young up and coming talent from the lower leagues or abroad, develop and sell on for a profit the way Brentford have done.

All the best talent is scooped up by the top clubs at a very young age and we are left with the scraps who are only good enough to send out on loan to League 1 and 2 clubs and then leave on a free

[Quickenthetempo]

The costs vary, depending on which standard of Cat 1 a club wants.
I believe Rovers pay the minimum amount for a lower entry Cat 1.
The key aim is producing players that either make it into the first team, or can be sold for an amount that cover the running costs of the academy.

Rovers have a centre back who's being eyed up by Spurs, valued at £5-8 million I read.
That single sale helps keep their academy going, but if they sold 3-4 players for £2-3 million each then it's the same end result.
Alternatively if they produce players who regularly make the first team then that's less of an outlay on transfers for the club, leaving said money free to help fund the academy.

Also the academy funding isn't included in FFP I'm vaguely recalling, but I'd have to check.

Rovers had to go down to to league one for their youth players to be good enough to play. I don't know much about their players and if it's judged a success but they will have spent more than 120m on their academy since the Jack Walker days.
I'm not sure if all the Stonyhurst school fees come out of that budget, but they have quite a few in there every year to get around the living in so many miles rules.

[Top Claret]

What is the way forward for as you describe "a club without finances"

The way forward is our new strategy to use the money to pick up young up and coming talent from the lower leagues or abroad, develop and sell on for a profit the way Brentford have done.

All the best talent is scooped up by the top clubs at a very young age and we are left with the scraps who are only good enough to send out on loan to League 1 and 2 clubs and then leave on a free

[Top Claret]

What is the way forward for as you describe "a club without finances"

The way forward is our new strategy to use the money to pick up young up and coming talent from the lower leagues or abroad, develop and sell on for a profit the way Brentford have done.

All the best talent is scooped up by the top clubs at a very young age and we are left with the scraps who are only good enough to send out on loan to League 1 and 2 clubs and then leave on a free

[Top Claret]

What is the way forward for as you describe "a club without finances"

The way forward is our new strategy to use the money to pick up young up and coming talent from the lower leagues or abroad, develop and sell on for a profit the way Brentford have done.

All the best talent is scooped up by the top clubs at a very young age and we are left with the scraps who are only good enough to send out on loan to League 1 and 2 clubs and then leave on a free

[Mattster]

Rovers had to go down to to league one for their youth players to be good enough to play. I don't know much about their players and if it's judged a success but they will have spent more than 120m on their academy since the Jack Walker days.
I'm not sure if all the Stonyhurst school fees come out of that budget, but they have quite a few in there every year to get around the living in so many miles rules.

Don't Rovers have something like a consecutive 500 games with an academy graduate in their squad? 40% of their first team minutes last season were from academy graduates too.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

There's no fixed minimum, but the last report I can find said a Cat 1 academy will cost somewhere between £2.5m and £5m per year to run based on the staffing levels and facility requirements.

Brentford have had to reopen their academy due to the Premier Leagues rules, it will cost a lot more to build one up again from scratch than maintain one.

Brentford have had to open it incase they qualify for Europe, they can't get in without one.

[aggi]

Brentford have had to open it incase they qualify for Europe, they can't get in without one.

Also a new Premier League rule that you need a minimum of Cat 3 academy.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The way forward is our new strategy to use the money to pick up young up and coming talent from the lower leagues or abroad, develop and sell on for a profit the way Brentford have done.

All the best talent is scooped up by the top clubs at a very young age and we are left with the scraps who are only good enough to send out on loan to League 1 and 2 clubs and then leave on a free

Cheers for all 4 replies

[aggi]

The way forward is our new strategy to use the money to pick up young up and coming talent from the lower leagues or abroad, develop and sell on for a profit the way Brentford have done.

All the best talent is scooped up by the top clubs at a very young age and we are left with the scraps who are only good enough to send out on loan to League 1 and 2 clubs and then leave on a free

Brentford were still making losses with that approach though.

Being a Cat 1 academy makes it much more difficult for the top clubs to scoop up your young players for a pittance. The rules were, unsurprisingly, set up to benefit the big clubs with Cat 1 academies.

[BurnleyFC]

Brentford have had to open it incase they qualify for Europe, they can't get in without one.

Which is a nonsense rule in itself. Why should a club’s academy status have any impact on how its first team operates?

I can understand the need to have meet the relevant stadium criteria but that seems a step too far.

[Top Claret]

Brentford were still making losses with that approach though.

Being a Cat 1 academy makes it much more difficult for the top clubs to scoop up your young players for a pittance. The rules were, unsurprisingly, set up to benefit the big clubs with Cat 1 academies.

Can you name any players pre cat 1 we have had scooped up for apitance?

[Quickenthetempo]

Don't Rovers have something like a consecutive 500 games with an academy graduate in their squad? 40% of their first team minutes last season were from academy graduates too.

I'm not sure but you would think it would go further back than that with Dunn being there a while. It's a well established academy that had a head start on most clubs, but it's recently benefitted from going down the leagues.
If we went down to league one, we could probably fill half a team with the current crop.

[Mattster]

Can you name any players pre cat 1 we have had scooped up for apitance?

Tyrhys Dolan (Man City, now at Rovers and linked to £3m moves to Celtic/Rangers) and Luke Cundle (Wolves, made PL debut last season) are two that I know of.

[Top Claret]

The more I hear about Cat 1 the more I think it is a vanity project which makes little financial sense, especially in our area with Manchester and Merseyside on our door step.

The big City 4 scoop up all the talent and leave us with the dregs

[Top Claret]

Tyrhys Dolan (Man City, now at Rovers and linked to £3m moves to Celtic/Rangers) and Luke Cundle (Wolves, made PL debut last season) are two that I know of.

So no Burnley players, thought not

[boatshed bill]

I don't think acadamy status is the bee hole and end hole.

Picking up players at 19 & 20 from lower League clubs who are showing true potential and giving them an opportunity at higher level is the way forward, not persevering and spending millions on an academy that has only produced Dwight McNeil

And Dwight McNeil is more a product of and reject from Man Utd's academy.
Plenty of our current U23s are rejects from other academies.

[Mattster]

So no Burnley players, thought not

Eh?

They were both in Burnley's academy but were scooped up by Man City and Wolves. That's what you asked for? If they'd been poached by others why would they now be Burnley players?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Eh?

They were both in Burnley's academy but were scooped up by Man City and Wolves. That's what you asked for? If they'd been poached by others why would they now be Burnley players?

Wasn’t that’s styles lad the same as well?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

And Dwight McNeil is more a product of and reject from Man Utd's academy.
Plenty of our current U23s are rejects from other academies.

Didn't we get Dwight at 16?
That's definitely product and reject territory, we should also be blaming Utd for failing to make him a dual footed maestro

[Quickenthetempo]

And Dwight McNeil is more a product of and reject from Man Utd's academy.
Plenty of our current U23s are rejects from other academies.

It depends which part of a players progress you value the most?

Plenty make it to 16 looking good. The next level is the most important in my view, turning them into players capable of being professionals.
It is a rare success from our youth coaches. The first team coaches haven't done as well as they should with him though.
Lets hope the new lot are better.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

The more I hear about Cat 1 the more I think it is a vanity project which makes little financial sense, especially in our area with Manchester and Merseyside on our door step.

The big City 4 scoop up all the talent and leave us with the dregs

Saints academy has been very highly regarded for a number of years and they're not a top 4 team.
What they're good at is providing a route to their first team, so this encourages players to go there.

[Dingo]

And Dwight McNeil is more a product of and reject from Man Utd's academy.
Plenty of our current U23s are rejects from other academies.

‘Rejects’ is harsh. Not everyone can make it at the top PL clubs and there are many reasons why they might not be retained or choose to move on. Even those going on to make a career at League 2 level I’d say were pretty successful. Prospects from other academies?

[Top Claret]

Eh?

They were both in Burnley's academy but were scooped up by Man City and Wolves. That's what you asked for? If they'd been poached by others why would they now be Burnley players?

Still doesn't make the academy cost effective. If we were located in a different area like Southampton or Norwich for example I would perhaps view the situation differently

Like I said the Brentford model is the way forward for clubs like Burnley, it certainly hasn't proved successful for Rovers or Derby to name a few