Academy

[Mattster]

Wasn’t that’s styles lad the same as well?

Think we just let him go, bizarrely.

[Mattster]

Still doesn't make the academy cost effective. If we were located in a different area like Southampton or Norwich for example I would perhaps view the situation differently

Like I said the Brentford model is the way forward for clubs like Burnley, it certainly hasn't proved successful for Rovers or Derby to name a few

40% of first team minutes last season were played by academy graduates at Rovers.

Derby would quite possibly no longer exist if they hadn't been able to cash in on academy graduates this past 12 months.

[Top Claret]

40% of first team minutes last season were played by academy graduates at Rovers.

Derby would quite possibly no longer exist if they hadn't been able to cash in on academy graduates this past 12 months.

Derby obviously couldn't afford the academy that's why they are in the mess the are in now because they didn't cut the cloth accordingly.

Has for Rovers it must be 10 years since they were in the premier League and they are still losing money hand over fist.

Money doesn't grow on trees and for academy 1 status to be effective at our financial level it has to be capable of showing some strong profit margins, which your examples didn't

[JarrowClaret]

Wasn’t that’s styles lad the same as well?

No he was released much to everyone’s shock, signed for Bury and was in there first team almost immediately

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Derby obviously couldn't afford the academy that's why they are in the mess the are in now because they didn't cut the cloth accordingly.

Has for Rovers it must be 10 years since they were in the premier League and they are still losing money hand over fist.

Money doesn't grow on trees and for academy 1 status to be effective at our financial level it has to be capable of showing some strong profit margins, which your examples didn't

If Derby had slashed their wage bill, their academy costs wouldn't be an issue.
Their wage bill has exceeded their income since as far back as 2017 when it stood at 117% and has gone up since then.

[Mattster]

Derby obviously couldn't afford the academy that's why they are in the mess the are in now because they didn't cut the cloth accordingly.

Has for Rovers it must be 10 years since they were in the premier League and they are still losing money hand over fist.

Money doesn't grow on trees and for academy 1 status to be effective at our financial level it has to be capable of showing some strong profit margins, which your examples didn't

Yeah, it was the academy that got Derby into trouble - not the first team signings for big fees on massive wages. All the academy. And getting fees for those academy players which kept the club alive by allowing it to pay wages over the past 12 months is totally not cost effective, better the club ceased to exist.

Same with Rovers, it's all down to the academy their losses - 40% of first team minutes (or >4 players in the starting 11 on average) is not cost effective at all - it'd be so much more cost effective for all of those players to have been bought for a fee...

[spt_claret]

Financial costs or not, there's some remarkable lowering of expectations going on by the usual suspects.
ALK themselves said the Academy is a priority- a comment which rightly got a lot of positive reaction from the fans. If it gets downgraded then by their own words on the Academy, that is a bad thing, regardless of how expensive it is- and as for 'at our level'- our level had been PL for 6 years straight and 7 of the last 9. We had the budget to operate a Cat 1 Academy then, and would have been able to for several years at Championship level were it not for our debt. Which again is why bouncing back ASAP is essential, a rebuilding year or 2 makes it harder and harder to restore our finances to a situation where we can run Cat 1 sustainably. Not being in the PL has endless knock-on effects on the club's infrastructure.
There is no way of spinning the potential downgrade as anything but a bad thing.

[Quickenthetempo]

An academy can only be successful if you have space in your squad for these players to play and grow.

[boatshed bill]

‘Rejects’ is harsh. Not everyone can make it at the top PL clubs and there are many reasons why they might not be retained or choose to move on. Even those going on to make a career at League 2 level I’d say were pretty successful. Prospects from other academies?

It does sound a bit harsh, do you have another word for it?

[Spijed]

An academy can only be successful if you have space in your squad for these players to play and grow.

Chelsea seem happy to use their academy to loan out and sell players, many of whom hardly make any first team appearances.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Chelsea seem happy to use their academy to loan out and sell players, many of whom hardly make any first team appearances.

That was mainly because of the constant sacking of managers and the pressure they were under to deliver, so they didn't want to risk giving youth much of a chance.
That had started to change with their embargo and then Tuchel coming in just as they had their best group of young players in years coming through.

[boatshed bill]

Chelsea seem happy to use their academy to loan out and sell players, many of whom hardly make any first team appearances.

Yes, and they do very well from it.
I assume the quality of "graduate" is much higher than we can expect, unfortunately.

[Top Claret]

Financial costs or not, there's some remarkable lowering of expectations going on by the usual suspects.
ALK themselves said the Academy is a priority- a comment which rightly got a lot of positive reaction from the fans. If it gets downgraded then by their own words on the Academy, that is a bad thing, regardless of how expensive it is- and as for 'at our level'- our level had been PL for 6 years straight and 7 of the last 9. We had the budget to operate a Cat 1 Academy then, and would have been able to for several years at Championship level were it not for our debt. Which again is why bouncing back ASAP is essential, a rebuilding year or 2 makes it harder and harder to restore our finances to a situation where we can run Cat 1 sustainably. Not being in the PL has endless knock-on effects on the club's infrastructure.
There is no way of spinning the potential downgrade as anything but a bad thing.

It's a learning curve for the new owners and they have obviously gone down a completely different path than 12 months ago when they gave Dyche and his backroom staff a new contract.

We didn't have a cat 1 acadamy when we signed up and coming talent like Trippier, Mee, Ings, Gray and Keane to name a few. This is where our time, money and resources need channeling not taking punt on a group of 16-18 year Olds

[Quickenthetempo]

Chelsea seem happy to use their academy to loan out and sell players, many of whom hardly make any first team appearances.

Yeah, it's a rare and expensive way to run an academy.

They get the best talent and pay them high wages.

It all relies on clubs like ours being gullible enough to pay loan fees and high wages to develop their young stars.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

It's a learning curve for the new owners and they have obviously gone down a completely different path than 12 months ago when they gave Dyche and his backroom staff a new contract.

We didn't have a cat 1 acadamy when we signed up and coming talent like Trippier, Mee, Ings, Gray and Keane to name a few. This is where our time, money and resources need channeling not taking punt on a group of 16-18 year Olds

Why not both?
Trippier, Mee and Ings were all relatively unknown and inexperienced.
Keane wasn't much further along.

Gray is the only one we paid big money for and that worked.

So this window we've signed a number of young players from the PL on loan or permanent, paid out some cash for decent players from the league below and now we need a Gray type signing and a GK.

We're just having to do a lot more in a shorter space of time on the transfers, but we can still utilise the academy that we've spent a number of years building back up to where it is now.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Yeah, it's a rare and expensive way to run an academy.

They get the best talent and pay them high wages.

It all relies on clubs like ours being gullible enough to pay loan fees and high wages to develop their young stars.

Chalobah was on something silly like £40k a week wasn't he, when we took him on loan?

[Quickenthetempo]

Chalobah was on something silly like £40k a week wasn't he, when we took him on loan?

37k it was reported at the time. They have made a lot of money from their puppy farm.

[Colburn_Claret]

I don't think acadamy status is the bee hole and end hole.

Picking up players at 19 & 20 from lower League clubs who are showing true potential and giving them an opportunity at higher level is the way forward, not persevering and spending millions on an academy that has only produced Dwight McNeil

You could turn that around and say we've only produced Dwight BECAUSE we couldn't attract the right potential, due to the poor company we were playing against. Producing our own is a no brainer, but to do that successfully so is Cat 1.

[Spijed]

Wasn't it mentioned that if clubs go down the route of not having academies then they can't play in Europe, as it's one of the requirements.

[Top Claret]

You could turn that around and say we've only produced Dwight BECAUSE we couldn't attract the right potential, due to the poor company we were playing against. Producing our own is a no brainer, but to do that successfully so is Cat 1.

The problem is our location you have to be 90 minutes from your residence. All the best kids are snapped up by the big 4 other North West clubs who we can't compete with financially.

[Colburn_Claret]

The problem is our location you have to be 90 minutes from your residence. All the best kids are snapped up by the big 4 other North West clubs who we can't compete with financially.

And at Cat 2 we are also competing against the other 5 North West clubs. For the last 30years they've all had a better go at producing their own than us.
I'm not against picking up nuggets from the lower league, but as we've seen this window, they still cost millions, and there's still no guarantee of success. It's a lot cheaper if you can crack the ability to produce your own.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Wasn't it mentioned that if clubs go down the route of not having academies then they can't play in Europe, as it's one of the requirements.

Yes, but aggi also informed us that it's now a PL requirement to have one, hence why Brentford have reopened theirs

[aggi]

The problem is our location you have to be 90 minutes from your residence. All the best kids are snapped up by the big 4 other North West clubs who we can't compete with financially.

Well that's another benefit of Category 1. That 90 minutes doesn't apply from a certain age.

[CharlieinNewMexico]

It's a learning curve for the new owners and they have obviously gone down a completely different path than 12 months ago when they gave Dyche and his backroom staff a new contract.

We didn't have a cat 1 acadamy when we signed up and coming talent like Trippier, Mee, Ings, Gray and Keane to name a few. This is where our time, money and resources need channeling not taking punt on a group of 16-18 year Olds

You’re missing the elephant in the room. Since Brexit you can’t get and develop young talent from Europe. They haven’t played enough in the right leagues to get a WP. And we’ve all seen how League 1 players are now going for 5M. Brentford own Midjttyland, which helps them attract and play talent (non WP qualifiers play there until qualified and then move).

And according to some we can’t afford to run our own club let alone buy another. So it’s not as simple as you say. Brentford have a benefactor with 300m cash laying around.

[Mattster]

Reading academy is set to drop to Cat 2, instantly off the back of that Brighton already have agreement in place with one of their academy players to poach him for a pittance...

[ŽižkovClaret]

Chelsea seem happy to use their academy to loan out and sell players, many of whom hardly make any first team appearances.

Its a hell of a revenue stream though, especially as home grown player sales show as pure profit for FFP purposes, and a certain amount is allowed for infrastructure spending
.
For the mega clubs like Chelsea and Man City, chucking money at academies is a no brainer, even if they only produce one first team player every 5 years, they still make financial sense

[Mattster]

Looks like we failed to convince

https://twitter.com/ground_guru/status/ ... 5623535618

[RVclaret]

How long until we can reapply?

[Mattster]

How long until we can reapply?

Will be next season I'd imagine.

[RVclaret]

Will be next season I'd imagine.

Not the end of the world then.

[Mattster]

Not the end of the world then.

If we get back up to scratch.

Either way would still be a lost year, one that will hamper academy recruitment, continuity and also leave us more open to losing some of our better prospects.

Will need to get more of the U23s out on loan because the lower level of opposition won't be of benefit to their development either.

[RVclaret]

If we get back up to scratch.

Either way would still be a lost year, one that will hamper academy recruitment, continuity and also leave us more open to losing some of our better prospects.

Will need to get more of the U23s out on loan because the lower level of opposition won't be of benefit to their development either.

Well it sounds like we were pretty convinced it is up to scratch hence all the letters of mitigation etc. So doesn’t seem like it’s that far away. And yes getting more 23s out on loan to EFL sides makes sense to me anyway.

[Mattster]

Well it sounds like we were pretty convinced it is up to scratch hence all the letters of mitigation etc. So doesn’t seem like it’s that far away. And yes getting more 23s out on loan to EFL sides makes sense to me anyway.

The PGB don't agree though otherwise we'd still be Cat 1, if they thought we were close then we'd probably be on provisional licenses like Forest, West Brom and Sunderland but we're not.

[Mattster]

https://twitter.com/ground_guru/status/ ... 2924050432

Then they've put this out, which makes it sound less certain we've been demoted

[Nori1958]

https://twitter.com/ground_guru/status/ ... 2924050432

Then they've put this out, which makes it sound less certain we've been demoted

Fixtures confirm demoted

[aggi]

Yes, seems to be confirmed
https://twitter.com/ground_guru/status/ ... 1860583425

[Rowls]

Shocking that this was allowed to happen. There were always going to be learning curves with the new owners but this is dreadful.

Let's hope it's remedied as soon as is possible.

[dandeclaret]

Unwelcome news.

[agreenwood]

Been coming, so pointless rehashing the same arguments, but it would be good for the club to confirm, explain and detail whether they intend to work to win Cat 1 status back.

I don’t think the club need to react to every bit of negative news, but in this case I do.

[boatshed bill]

Been coming, so pointless rehashing the same arguments, but it would be good for the club to confirm, explain and detail whether they intend to work to win Cat 1 status back.

I don’t think the club need to react to every bit of negative news, but in this case I do.

Right now I think their priority lies elsewhere.

[Leisure]

Rovers just had Cat 1 status confirmed for the next 3 years!

[Leisure]

Sorry if this has already been covered but will there be a saving to the Club by dropping to Cat 2? And if so, how much?

[Chester Perry]

Sorry if this has already been covered but will there be a saving to the Club by dropping to Cat 2? And if so, how much?

Depends if we try to get back to Cat 1 asap - in that scenario we will probably have to spend even more to demonstrate our commitment to the assessors

[Chester Perry]

Well it sounds like we were pretty convinced it is up to scratch hence all the letters of mitigation etc. So doesn’t seem like it’s that far away. And yes getting more 23s out on loan to EFL sides makes sense to me anyway.

that is one way of looking at it - another is that our new owners thought they knew better - plenty of other options too

[Leisure]

Depends if we try to get back to Cat 1 asap - in that scenario we will probably have to spend even more to demonstrate our commitment to the assessors

Ok but will there be a saving to the Club if we are happy to stay at Cat 2?

[Chester Perry]

Ok but will there be a saving to the Club if we are happy to stay at Cat 2?

At least £2m I would have thought - though many would argue you may as well be lower if you do not want Cat 1

Academy spend does not affect FFP but can be advantageous as described above

[clive40golf]

I’ve had some stick on this message board from certain people about my contacts, which kind of makes me reluctant to post stuff but. Talking today, the reasons which have brought our cat 1 status into question is not related to the coaching side, more the administrative side, which is being dealt with. One of the first questions I asked was how disappointed he was to have lost cat1 and his reply was “we haven’t “ and he then gave the above explanation. I know it goes against what everyone is saying, but he does hold a high status within the coaching team, so I’ll leave it up to you wether to believe me or not.

[Vegas Claret]

if Kompany gives our young lads at chance that is far more attractive to a player than Cat 1 surely ?