Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

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ClaretPete001
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by ClaretPete001 » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:57 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:33 pm
I think you've lost me, Pete. I'm no longer sure what you are arguing. What has the tv rights paid out over the seasons you quote got to do with the cash on the balance sheet? Yes, the tv money varies with the positions club finish in the league, higher finishes brings in more money. But, higher finishes also results in higher bonuses for the players, so the net effect on the club's cash balances doesn't directly reflect tv money received for each season. What does directly effect the cash balance is the date the tv money is received and the period end date that the club uses to prepare the accounts. If the period end is 30th June and the first instalment of tv rights for the following season are received in July, that money won't be part of the period end cash balance. If, as happened, the period end is deferred until 31st July, the tv rights received in July will be included in the cash at 31st July. (But, those tv rights aren't included in the revenue for the period, because they are included in "accruals and deferred income" - in the same way as the following season's season ticket payments received and any sponsorship paid in advance.

I can't make head nor tail over the rest of the stuff you say. As I said above, I'm leaving it there.

Do I think the club is facing a "cash crisis?" No, not at this time and not based on the facts available to us. Do I know all the details? No, of course, not. None of us do. We will have to wait and see how the transfer window progresses. We will have to wait and see how Vincent Kompany and his new team perform next season. We will have to wait and see what we learn from the accounts when they are pubished. Maybe, or maybe not, there will also be other developments that put information of BFC's financial status in the public domain.

UTC
The TV money is 85 per cent of the income the rest is yadda yadda. If the TV money does not change then everything else is pretty much irrelevant because the owners of the business have struck deals with PL broadcast revenue in mind.

This is not a complex business because 85% of the revenue is guaranteed and paid in advance. Either you are suggesting the former owners of the business are utterly incompetent or they knew exactly the position of the cash at any given point.

They knew the nature of the deal - they knew the TV revenue - give them some credit Paul it's embarrassing to think they could not do a simple cash flow forecast to ascertain that at least £37 million was spare to spend on shares and probably more.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by dsr » Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:58 pm

Paul Waine wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 6:13 pm
Yes, given the change in ownership, the new owners made a decision to use £37m of the previous owners' cash reserves to assist their payment for the shares they had bought. That Alan Pace has done that is not evidence that Mike Garlick had planned that that would be done by a new owner.
If Alan Pace had gone to the PL and said "I want to arrange this takeover, Mr. Garlick and I have arranged the price, please may we go ahead", then the PL would have asked where the money to buy the club was going to come from. And if Mr. Pace had said "I don't know", or "I'm not saying", or "Tell you later", the PL would have told him to sling his hook. The terms of the deal and the source of the money were known to both Garlick and Pace before the deal was signed.

(Quite apart from the fact that no-one ever signs a £180m deal without either having the money in hand or having a detailed knowledge of where it's coming from before they sign.)

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by aggi » Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:10 pm

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:38 pm
If you accept the club could absorb £37 million and probably more then why did we not spend it on players? And instead, accept it in exchange for shares in the business?
The club could absorb it, whether it was prudent to do so is a different matter.

Personally, I'd have favoured the more prudent approach. My stance was always that we should build up a hefty reserve in case of relegation and then loosen the purse strings once that had been achieved.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by ClaretPete001 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:03 am

aggi wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 11:10 pm
The club could absorb it, whether it was prudent to do so is a different matter.

Personally, I'd have favoured the more prudent approach. My stance was always that we should build up a hefty reserve in case of relegation and then loosen the purse strings once that had been achieved.
Hindsight is a fine thing, but it is now quite clear it was not prudent to wait to see if we avoided relegation. In fact, the lack of investment caused relegation

But the point is - would you as a prudent strategist planning to build up "hefty cash reserves" suddenly do a volte face and use it to fund a leveraged buyout?

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by FeedTheArf » Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:50 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 12:03 am
Hindsight is a fine thing, but it is now quite clear it was not prudent to wait to see if we avoided relegation. In fact, the lack of investment caused relegation

But the point is - would you as a prudent strategist planning to build up "hefty cash reserves" suddenly do a volte face and use it to fund a leveraged buyout?
And I think that’s the key point.

We thought Garlick was building the cash reserves to cushion the financial blow of potential relegation, when in reality it appears he was building the reserves to make us more attractive for a leveraged buyout.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:22 am

ClaretPete001 wrote:
Tue Jun 21, 2022 10:57 pm
The TV money is 85 per cent of the income the rest is yadda yadda. If the TV money does not change then everything else is pretty much irrelevant because the owners of the business have struck deals with PL broadcast revenue in mind.

This is not a complex business because 85% of the revenue is guaranteed and paid in advance. Either you are suggesting the former owners of the business are utterly incompetent or they knew exactly the position of the cash at any given point.

They knew the nature of the deal - they knew the TV revenue - give them some credit Paul it's embarrassing to think they could not do a simple cash flow forecast to ascertain that at least £37 million was spare to spend on shares and probably more.

Good morning, Pete. in one of your earlier posts you listed the tv rights revenue for 4 seasons. The amounts varied, some earlier seasons the club received more than in later seasons. The reason for this is that an element of the tv rights that each club receives is determined by the position the club achieves at the end of the season: 7th, 10th, 16th, 17th - and last season, 18th. The old board led by Mike Garlick were very competent, we've seen it posted on this mb many times that they budgeted on the tv rights the club would receive on the basis that every season the club finished 17th. When the club finished higher than that, some of the extra revenue would be paid in bigger player bonuses, some was put aside as, let's call it "rainy day" money. The rest would be in the pot for other necessary expenditure, maybe a little "wriggle room" in contract discussions with existing players, maybe a little more room to manoeuvre in the transfer market - though rarely sufficient, especially as more billionaires upped their spending at other clubs.

The tv rights money is paid out in stages over the season. Obviously, as an element depends on where each club finishes the season that final payment isn't received until the season is completed. The first instalment is paid in July, before the season starts. Receipt of that first instalment is shown on the balance sheet of the accounts when the period end is 31st July - and, offset by an equal entry for deferred income in those accounts, so that it's not counted as revenue for the previous season. Similarly, when the accounting period end was 30th June the period end cash balance won't show the receipt of money that hadn't been received on or before that date. Can I assume that you now understand this point? I notice that you haven't mentioned the period end cash balances in the post above.

Yes, the previous owners were competent. Yes, the previous owners were capable of knowing exactly how much money the club had at any point in time. Yes, the previous owners were capable of preparing cash flow forecasts. And, the previous owners will have understood that an element of the tv rights money is dependent on where the club finished the season - and that the higher the club finishes player bonuses increase, so there's extra incoming revenue and extra outgoing payments. I'll go further, Mike Garlick was smart enough to know that he didn't have the finances to keep the club competing at the top level. It's reasonable to assume that this was discussed with all the other directors and all of them also concluded that they didn't have the money needed to put more into the club. So, the decision was made to sell to new owners.

Yes, Mike Garlick and all the other directors were competent to know what the club had to sell, the club's status as a Premier League team, the rules that the bottom three teams were relegated at the end of every season, the players contracted to the club, the terms of those contracts/wages and bonuses, their length of contract, their ages and that every year the players would be a year older... The directors would also have known the club's land and building assets, Turf Moor, the condition of the stands, Barnfield training centre. They would also know the cash in the bank, including that they had built this up, "rainy day" money or, as some have termed it, "dry powder store."

Prospective new owners would also look at all these things about the club. The selling and buying process is about laying everything out so that the sellers achieve the deal that meets their aims and that the prospective buyers are prepared to and capable of completing the deal that they intend.

I find it odd that you want to attribute to Mike Garlick the decision that the club had a lot of spare cash that a new owner could use to buy Mike Garlick's (and the other directors) shares. A new owner will make their own decisions about these things. A new owner is capable of making their own decisions about how they wish to finance the purchase. We've seen, through the public domain filings how Alan Pace/ALK have financed the deal up to this stage: a loan from MSD, originally believed to be £60m, the BFC accounts have shown us it is £65m, with a "significant amount" "to be agreed" between ALK and MSD, to be repaid early on relegation, documents filed with TISE, Guernsey, reveal this is £15m; BFC accounts also report £37m and after the year end £10m. There's also the Macquarie loan, which confirms that NUFC owes BFC £12.5m for the transfer of Chris Wood. We've also recently seen Peter Crouch report that his contract with Stoke included 45% wage cut on relegation and his suggestion that that 45% is pretty much standard these days. There are other things we don't know and cannot see in public domain documents. We don't, for example, know the terms of the instalments due from ALK to the former directors. Have the timing of these instalments been renegotiated, as some have claimed? Was any element of these instalments subject to the club remaining in the Premier League for X seasons, is the amount due on the instalments now reduced because the club is no longer in the Premier League? Competent business people will be familiar with the frequency of "earn outs" in takeover activities. It would be surprising if the sellers and purchasers of a smaller club that has been in the bottom half of the Premier League had not considered the possibility of relegation and reflected this in the terms of the deal. Some might say it shows incompetence not to include a relegation adjustment in such a deal.

Alan Pace is, like Mike Garlick, a competent business person. He's also capable of preparing cashflow projections and making his business plans accordingly. If Alan Pace has decided that there was surplus cash in the club's bank account at the time the purchase was closed and that it would assist his plans for the acquisition of the club to use that surplus cash, along with the loan from MSD, to make the first instalments to buy the former directors' shares, then he's competent to do that.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by IanMcL » Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:31 am

FeedTheArf wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 7:50 am
And I think that’s the key point.

We thought Garlick was building the cash reserves to cushion the financial blow of potential relegation, when in reality it appears he was building the reserves to make us more attractive for a leveraged buyout.
Yes. I wonder what folk would think of Mr Garlick if he still owned Burnley FC and suddenly reported that the directors had decided to remove all the club's cash reserves to pay themselves but don't worry, the TV money will continue to arrive. with any luck.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:07 am

IanMcL wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 9:31 am
Yes. I wonder what folk would think of Mr Garlick if he still owned Burnley FC and suddenly reported that the directors had decided to remove all the club's cash reserves to pay themselves but don't worry, the TV money will continue to arrive. with any luck.
Especially if he added that they were going to borrow £65m at 10%+ interest so they could pay themselves even more.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am

dsr wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:07 am
Especially if he added that they were going to borrow £65m at 10%+ interest so they could pay themselves even more.
Imagine if the entity they were speaking to about this possible £65m loan asked them what they planned to do with the money and how they would ensure that the loan would be repaid...

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by dsr » Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:53 am

Paul Waine wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 10:12 am
Imagine if the entity they were speaking to about this possible £65m loan asked them what they planned to do with the money and how they would ensure that the loan would be repaid...
No need to imagine that. The lender wouldn't much care what the money was used for, because the lender knew there was guaranteed TV income that they could get a mortgage on to make the loan safe for them.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:57 pm

A few thoughts on the latest discussions in this thread - includes element from the offer letter to small shareholders that was marked private and confidential but that transaction has now passed and I estimate at least two thousand people have now seen it

It has been suggested a number of times from posters who really do understand these things that it is reasonable to expect a price drop should the club be relegated - that is something that I too would found a reasonable proposition until I read this in the Offer Letter to the small shareholders of Oct 4 2021

1.2. Based on the terms of the Acquisition, the Sellers were to receive £1,652.86 per BHL Share, and more potentially subject to the Club achieving certain performance conditions in due course (the “Acquisition Price). The Acquisition Price reflects a substantial control premium in return for the sale of up to 94% of the issued share capital of BHL and board control.

notice there is talk of a price increase if certain performance criteria are met and absolutely nothing about a price decrease on relegation - I would expect there to be (or am I just being naive) mentioning it would have no outcome on the small shareholders, they would still get their £1699

With regard to Garlick putting money aside to essentially extract on the sale of the club (the reading of events that is held most popular with posters) and contrasting it with prudence of rainy day money

- Many have come to realise that running a Cat 1 Academy is a costly exercise - no one manages it on less than £4.5m a year from what I see and many spend a multiple of that. The academy was to form a a key element of long term path to sustainability under Garlick and he had talked of putting money aside to cover costs of running it even if were were to endure a sustained period out of the Premier League. Garlick seemed to accept that it would likely take 10 years for an Academy to start producing in the way we all hope it can

- There is also the argument of going down in a strong financial position to allow the opportunity of coming straight back up strong, most recently outlined by aggi

- There is also the development roadmap of both Turf Moor and Gawthorpe - none of us know just how much was in it but believe at least much of what has been done since the takeover, if not all, formed part of that roadmap *there was likely much more on it) and was paid for by monies put aside for the purpose

- finally there is the budgeting of a 17th place finish and a refusal to have anything but a one off payment that strayed beyond that, which effectively rules out staged transfer payments and wages (player signings) that would break that budget - outgoings would be necessary, particularly to manage wages from a cash perspective

all of these are things most, if not all, of us supported prior to the takeover

In regards to what happened in the build up to and culminated in the December 30 2020 takeover

- Garlick had struggled for around 4 years to find new investment
- Covid was affecting budgets and player trading (I estimate that our total lost revenue as a result of Covid to be around £27m-£28m of which £13.4m was TV rebate), there was no indication of when it would end in the summer of 2020
- Player trading had almost come to a halt, through a result of failings that started in the summer of 2020 and a manager refusing to accept that they could only profitably sell the players others wanted to buy, the club not being able to match player wage aspirations and the effects of Project restart on players who were out of contract
- The consequent effect on the relationship between Dyche and Garlick appeared to be deeply poisonous to the club's wellbeing and relegation looked more realistic than survival, It appeared that everyone agreed one had to go and more or less everyone though it should be Garlick (possibly including Garlick himself) to maintain a chance of retaining Premier League status.

The known offers on the table at the time were ALK (now more appropriately referred to as VSL) and the Farnell/Elkashashy bid, the latter of which featured an individual who had been the subject of much controversy within the game. Which leaves us with ALK

- given that Pace reckoned that they had worked on the deal for over a year, it is reasonable to say that Garlick took his time to consider the deal and how it was constructed - some will see this as further evidence of cash building in the summer of 2020, a few that he took time to consider all the impacts as outlined and the other issues at the club at the time
- There is no doubt that Garlick would have accepted that some of the club's money would be used to facilitate the initial payment and possibly even the servicing and repayment of the MSD loan, the cost of which was to be met by a growth in non TV revenues.
- It is also highly probable that Garlick like MSD believed that VSL would be better suited to finding new investors - the plan was to quickly flip shares to new investors (they had the American contacts and offered a persuasive case given the absolute gold rush that was sports investment at the time in New York - remember over $9 billion put into sports related SPACS in the first 50 days of 202, no doubt both MSD and Garlick were as disappointed as VSL when their tour of Wall St in Feb 2021 returned nothing.
- Consequently stage payments have been met from club funds not new investors, this was never part of the plan (though it should/would have been considered as an interim fall back). In the summer of 2021 a late stage payment was met with conciliatory understanding and a revised schedule was put in place along with a ringfence agreement on the remaining shares.
- The offer was made to small shareholders, it is reasonable to assume that MSD had at least an encouraging role in both these offers
- By March when the next stage payment became overdue Garlicks attitude appeared to have changed, take your pick as to whether you believe he just wanted his money or was becoming concerned by the lack of new investment and the constant outflow of club cash, mostly to him. He activated clauses to try and break the sale agreement if payment was not made in a declared timeframe (it was). There was no doubt that he was aware of the MSD repayment clause and the remaining schedule of the Stage payments - was he hoping to enact this element of the Sales contract that was described in the Offer Letter to small shareholders before things got much worse.

1.5. The Acquisition has been structured with the long-term financial health and stability of the Club at its core. Consequently, VS and the Sellers have agreed provisions to protect against any insolvency process involving the Club that could result from or on account of the terms of the Acquisition. Rather than allowing enforcement, in the case of a default, that could force the Club into insolvency, an alternative mechanism exists by which Sellers can reacquire their interest in the Club. If circumstances arose and Sellers were to do so, VS would retain an interest in the Club, with the level of such interest being established by reference to payments made to the Sellers as part of the Acquisition.

we don't know either way, but we do know that VSL are still fighting to retain absolute control even as they have continued to fail in their primary objective of new investment. An issue compounded by the outcomes at the club under their watch.

much relies on what will be achieved over the summer and the ensuing season
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:11 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:57 pm

- Player trading had almost come to a halt, through a result of failings that started in the summer of 2020 and a manager refusing to accept that they could only profitably sell the players others wanted to buy, the club not being able to match player wage aspirations and the effects of Project restart on players who were out of contract
That should be the summer of 2018

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by RVclaret » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:13 pm

Good post CP, thanks.

Seems like acquiring new investors was clearly a major part of the plan for VS.

It’s interesting why that part failed so miserably then. Do you think it’s down to them ‘overpaying’ themselves? Although I saw Chelsea’s new owner saying English football is undervalued relative to US sports. Or, down to the ‘brand’ of Burnley eg poor league position, white lives matter banner, Brexit football tag etc.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Chester Perry » Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:21 pm

RVclaret wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:13 pm
Good post CP, thanks.

Seems like acquiring new investors was clearly a major part of the plan for VS.

It’s interesting why that part failed so miserably then. Do you think it’s down to them ‘overpaying’ themselves? Although I saw Chelsea’s new owner saying English football is undervalued relative to US sports. Or, down to the ‘brand’ of Burnley eg poor league position, white lives matter banner, Brexit football tag etc.
Getting new investors was absolutely central to the plan

It failed for all the reasons previously discussed - no one with the means apparently believes that a small town club like Burnley can be grown into a stable long term Premier League certainty. Bigger clubs than ourselves (but small in Premier League terms) even with mega rich owners have not managed it over the long term, despite some (Leicester) achieving stellar results in the short to medium term and certainly not while generating a regular profit

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Nori1958 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:53 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 3:21 pm
Getting new investors was absolutely central to the plan

It failed for all the reasons previously discussed - no one with the means apparently believes that a small town club like Burnley can be grown into a stable long term Premier League certainty. Bigger clubs than ourselves (but small in Premier League terms) even with mega rich owners have not managed it over the long term, despite some (Leicester) achieving stellar results in the short to medium term and certainly not while generating a regular profit
Which investors have turned us down for being a small town club

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:00 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 4:53 pm
Which investors have turned us down for being a small town club
All of them

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Nori1958 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:09 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:00 pm
All of them
But who were they......

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Lancasterclaret » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:18 pm

Nori1958 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:09 pm
But who were they......
Whoever they asked!

I'm finding it hard to disagree with the premise that we were turned down by investors because they couldn't see how we could develop the brand into something worth investing in, and with enough profits to make it worthwhile

When you chuck in the danger of relegation every season (which I don't think we could ever say we'd be comfortable thinking we'd not be in the mix) and its just (depressingly) reality I'm afraid
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Nori1958 » Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:24 pm

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:18 pm
Whoever they asked!

I'm finding it hard to disagree with the premise that we were turned down by investors because they couldn't see how we could develop the brand into something worth investing in, and with enough profits to make it worthwhile

When you chuck in the danger of relegation every season (which I don't think we could ever say we'd be comfortable thinking we'd not be in the mix) and its just (depressingly) reality I'm afraid
If people are so positive we were turned down because we were a small town club, surely they must know who they were
I totally get somebody might not invest because we weren't an established Premier league side, but that could apply to big city clubs just as much.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Paul Waine » Wed Jun 22, 2022 8:29 pm

Chester Perry wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 2:57 pm
**** edited quote to save space and focus on the bits I wish to comment on *******

1.2. Based on the terms of the Acquisition, the Sellers were to receive £1,652.86 per BHL Share, and more potentially subject to the Club achieving certain performance conditions in due course (the “Acquisition Price). The Acquisition Price reflects a substantial control premium in return for the sale of up to 94% of the issued share capital of BHL and board control.

notice there is talk of a price increase if certain performance criteria are met and absolutely nothing about a price decrease on relegation - I would expect there to be (or am I just being naive) mentioning it would have no outcome on the small shareholders, they would still get their £1699

.......

- It is also highly probable that Garlick like MSD believed that VSL would be better suited to finding new investors - the plan was to quickly flip shares to new investors (they had the American contacts and offered a persuasive case given the absolute gold rush that was sports investment at the time in New York - remember over $9 billion put into sports related SPACS in the first 50 days of 202, no doubt both MSD and Garlick were as disappointed as VSL when their tour of Wall St in Feb 2021 returned nothing.


- Consequently stage payments have been met from club funds not new investors, this was never part of the plan (though it should/would have been considered as an interim fall back). In the summer of 2021 a late stage payment was met with conciliatory understanding and a revised schedule was put in place along with a ringfence agreement on the remaining shares.

- The offer was made to small shareholders, it is reasonable to assume that MSD had at least an encouraging role in both these offers

- By March when the next stage payment became overdue Garlicks attitude appeared to have changed, take your pick as to whether you believe he just wanted his money or was becoming concerned by the lack of new investment and the constant outflow of club cash, mostly to him. He activated clauses to try and break the sale agreement if payment was not made in a declared timeframe (it was). There was no doubt that he was aware of the MSD repayment clause and the remaining schedule of the Stage payments - was he hoping to enact this element of the Sales contract that was described in the Offer Letter to small shareholders before things got much worse.
Hi CP, an interesting post. My thoughts and a few questions.

1) Acquisition terms: are you sure that it was £1,652.86 per BHL share as a minimum and that there was only upside "subject to the Club achieving certain performance conditions"? I think it's equally possible to read that statement as saying that to receive £1,652.86 per BHL share the Club is subject to achieving certain performance conditions. Why would a letter to small shareholders say "please sell us your shares now for £X" and also tell those small shareholders that if they hold on to their shares they may be worth more if the Club achieves certain performance conditions? I'm not and never have been a BFC shareholder. The discussions on this mb re the small shareholders' offer, to the best of my knowledge, never discussed the possibility that the price to be paid for the former directors' shares could be higher.

2) I see ALK's plan as attracting more investors into VS in the US, rather than "flipping" (as you describe it) shares in BHL (or any other entity in the group structure). Yes, MSD had advanced £65m loan, but I'm not sure why MSD would be "disappointed" ALK was unable to add new investors. From the documents in the public domain MSD loan has certain medium term loan conditions. If MSD felt that ALK required more investors they wouldn't have advanced the loan, but instead made the additional investors a condition of the loan and paid nothing, or possibly only a limited amount, until the additional investors were in place.

3) Re stage payments, have you got access to information that isn't in the public domain? Saying MG activated clauses to try and break the sale agreement is a dramatic statement. If the financial situation was so stressed, how do you explain MSD being, apparently, content to receive only £15m loan repayment earlier this month?

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 11:29 am

Nori1958 wrote:
Wed Jun 22, 2022 5:24 pm
If people are so positive we were turned down because we were a small town club, surely they must know who they were
I totally get somebody might not invest because we weren't an established Premier league side, but that could apply to big city clubs just as much.
Mostly, investors do not go around declaring they aren't going to invest in something.

And if their are discussions neither party really wants the fact that they haven't ended successfully to be made public.

And the issue is not that we ere not an established PL side but that we lack the organic capacity to be one.

Big city clubs may not be established PL sides but they have the capacity to become one without perennial additional external finance.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by ClaretPete001 » Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:58 pm

Some great posts above; however, there are 3 internal contradictions inherent to some of the arguments:

1. It is not credible that football club owners could develop a relegation strategy based upon both: (1) building up cash reserves and (2) not investing in playing assets.

Clearly, the actions taken to avoid relegation cannot, logically speaking, be intrinsically likely to cause it.

2. It is not credible that financially conservative owners could be both: (1) concerned about an estimated £50 million cost of Covid19 and the threat to the future stability of the club, and at the same time, (2) agree a deal that would use £62 million of the clubs own cash to buy their shares.

3. It is not credible that owners who had: (1) failed to secure investment for 4 years, (2) could not envisage that a debt ridden leveraged buyout was likely to make the investment proposition even less appealling to investors than it was before.

I am not saying the idea that MG and Co planned for a leveraged buyout is true; rather, that scenario is the only fit to the evidence that isn't left with unresolvable contradictions.

Let's give all involved due credit: they knew what they were doing and they knew the risks.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by RVclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:50 am

Further loan reduction

https://tisegroup.com/market/companies/8061

Another 12.2m has been repaid.

This means 50% of the initial balance has been paid with 32.7m outstanding (due 2031 it says there).

One might suggest that is now the ‘significant repayment’ of the loan that the accounts suggested were required upon relegation?

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:21 am

Is that just the outstanding monies from Burnley or the other clubs too?

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by RVclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:28 am

GodIsADeeJay81 wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 7:21 am
Is that just the outstanding monies from Burnley or the other clubs too?
The one in the middle is ours - 32.7m at 8%

If you click on that then it has a partial delisting on the 24 August of 12.23m
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by jedi_master » Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:23 am

Very pleased to see the club being responsible in trying to get this gone ASAP above a potentially devastating attempt at ‘promotion at all costs’.

Still hate the mechanism used for the takeover and always will, but this at least shows an understanding of the pitfalls of leaving that debt there.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Hipper » Sat Aug 27, 2022 9:15 am

Is it likely that the outstanding monies will be paid off before 2031?

We still have LIBOR + 8% to pay on these loans. I don't know exactly how to work this out but say 10% total interest rate, that's £3.3 million a year (and surely to go up, maybe considerably), presumably tax deductible.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by randomclaret2 » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:18 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 6:50 am
Further loan reduction

https://tisegroup.com/market/companies/8061

Another 12.2m has been repaid.

This means 50% of the initial balance has been paid with 32.7m outstanding (due 2031 it says there).

One might suggest that is now the ‘significant repayment’ of the loan that the accounts suggested were required upon relegation?
Mail reporting this online this morning...saying 3 repayments , of £15m, £5m, and £12.3m have been made in the last 3 months, leaving the £32.7m outstanding

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Lowbankclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:43 am

I will just say that it at least shows they are trying to pay off the loan.
Shame we didn’t more for Pope and could have paid more off.

The sooner it’s gone the happier many fans will be.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by daveisaclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:44 am

Well done Mr Pace. A small price to pay in exchange for *checks notes*
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:47 am

Lowbankclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:43 am
I will just say that it at least shows they are trying to pay off the loan.
Shame we didn’t more for Pope and could have paid more off.

The sooner it’s gone the happier many fans will be.
You could say that especially with the mindset being that the debt shouldn't haven't been there in the first place I guess the party can well & truly start when it's diddly squat.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by NewClaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:52 am

Great news.

Not that I’ll ever come to terms with this being necessary to fund Mr Garlick’s retirement, but good news for the club nevertheless.

Notice how this made its way in to part of an article in the Mail. Given how that newspaper was prophesying doom, you’d have thought they’d make this a back page headline 🤭🤭

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:53 am

jedi_master wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 8:23 am
Very pleased to see the club being responsible in trying to get this gone ASAP above a potentially devastating attempt at ‘promotion at all costs’.

Still hate the mechanism used for the takeover and always will, but this at least shows an understanding of the pitfalls of leaving that debt there.
This is unlikely to be the choice of Pace/VSL - This is much more in line with what some of us thought MSD would be asking for

It is a bittersweet thought that the debt is being reduced so substantially (it could be halved again next summer if we don't get promotion, and equally returned to it's original sum if we do) when you realise that the parallel debt to Calder Vale Holdings is likely to be written off via impairment at some point

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:59 am

I should add that these monies will have likely come from the first instalment of the Parachute Payments and profit from the Cornet sale. I am still awaiting further charges from Macquarie or their ilk re the transfers of Collins and/or McNeil - don't forget next month there is a stage payment to the Sellers of £20m - £25m

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by RVclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:01 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:53 am
This is unlikely to be the choice of Pace/VSL - This is much more in line with what some of us thought MSD would be asking for

It is a bittersweet thought that the debt is being reduced so substantially (it could be halved again next summer if we don't get promotion, and equally returned to it's original sum if we do) when you realise that the parallel debt to Calder Vale Holdings is likely to be written off via impairment at some point
Out of interest, as you were one of the doom merchants on here post relegation, saying that it was essential to be promoted this season, have you changed this opinion given the window we’ve had, debt reduced by half, rhetoric from Kompany / Pace re. it not being essential?
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by summitclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:04 am

For us lessor mortals, please can someone summarise what we now owe in total and to whom , especially to MSD and MG/JB etc.?

Secondly, how would that change in 23/24, if went up this season?

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by NewClaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:24 am

Chester Perry wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:59 am
I should add that these monies will have likely come from the first instalment of the Parachute Payments and profit from the Cornet sale. I am still awaiting further charges from Macquarie or their ilk re the transfers of Collins and/or McNeil - don't forget next month there is a stage payment to the Sellers of £20m - £25m
You’re assuming there that the terms of those sales were not cash up front. Lots of speculation that Cornet’s at least was, and given he was signed at the same time at Collins, could quite possibly have had a similar clause.

And also, of course, that any future stage payments were not a) contingent on survival, b) negotiable in respect to timing. With respect, CP, you’re presenting matters subject to confidential agreement as fact when I think they’re more likely opinion (albeit well-researched opinion).
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by tiger76 » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:31 am

As a layman regarding how such finances work, I can only assume it's good news that the debt is being reduced, in all honesty it would have been better not to have acquired these debts in the first place, but at least the club realise it's important that the repayments are maintained.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by forzagranata » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:35 am

NewClaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 10:52 am
Great news.

Not that I’ll ever come to terms with this being necessary to fund Mr Garlick’s retirement, but good news for the club nevertheless.

Notice how this made its way in to part of an article in the Mail. Given how that newspaper was prophesying doom, you’d have thought they’d make this a back page headline 🤭🤭
The ‘doom mongering’ in the media was saying we would have to sell off our best players to pay for Pace’s debt.

Isn’t that exactly what has happened?
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:39 am

Had that not happened we would have almost been promoted at the first attempt with the strength in depth & additional funding.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by RVclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:41 am

Jakubclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:39 am
Had that not happened we would have almost been promoted at the first attempt with the strength in depth & additional funding.
Errrr no that’s not how it works - and we would have still lost the exact same players we have.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by NewClaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:43 am

forzagranata wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:35 am
The ‘doom mongering’ in the media was saying we would have to sell off our best players to pay for Pace’s debt.

Isn’t that exactly what has happened?
Must’ve missed the part where they said that would allow the debt to be repaid and a more youthful, exciting team rebuilt.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:44 am

Look, people need to stop this

We've been relegated, and we had a debt to pay off

We've managed to pay half of it off, vastly reduce the wage bill and rebuild the team in about two months

That deserves praise
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Jakubclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:45 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:41 am
Errrr no that’s not how it works - and we would have still lost the exact same players we have.
We was under no obligation to sell any contracted players apart from the release clauses & even if that scenario didn't exist more money would have been utilised towards replacement players & not paying off debt.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by daveisaclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:49 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:44 am
Look, people need to stop this

We've been relegated, and we had a debt to pay off

We've managed to pay half of it off, vastly reduce the wage bill and rebuild the team in about two months

That deserves praise
ALK have put the club in loads of debt, and used the club's money to pay off half the debt.

You can't ignore the first part and pretend the second part is a good deed. It's nonsense.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by GodIsADeeJay81 » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:50 am

forzagranata wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:35 am
The ‘doom mongering’ in the media was saying we would have to sell off our best players to pay for Pace’s debt.

Isn’t that exactly what has happened?
The media also thought we'd struggle to attract a manager and rebuild the squad like we have done.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by NewClaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:50 am

Lancasterclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:44 am
Look, people need to stop this

We've been relegated, and we had a debt to pay off

We've managed to pay half of it off, vastly reduce the wage bill and rebuild the team in about two months

That deserves praise
Definitely does. Massive effort, imagine it’s taken a huge amount of work.
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Chester Perry » Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:55 am

RVclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:01 am
Out of interest, as you were one of the doom merchants on here post relegation, saying that it was essential to be promoted this season, have you changed this opinion given the window we’ve had, debt reduced by half, rhetoric from Kompany / Pace re. it not being essential?
Wouldn't say I was a doom merchant

I have just wondered aloud as to how all the outgoings could be serviced, because whatever the protestations I have seen absolutely zero evidence of a reduced sale price on relegation

this year we know

- £10m was "advanced" to VSL - in all probability to help pay for supporters shares
- there were circa £37m in stage payments due (and another £21m - the final element - due in 2023)
- We sacked Sean Dyche and his team - all thought to be on new 4 year contracts - which will demand some form of payoff (my guess is anywhere between £10m - £25m)
- returned £32.2m to MSD possibly/probably with an attached penalty fee (is this all of the relegation penalty or is there still more due? We know it could be halved again if we do not get promoted)
- will pay MSD in excess of £4m in interest payments

VSL will still want to buy the remaining shares of the sellers - currently subject to an exclusivity option expiring in October 2024 and of the agreed price is the same as the original sale price that will require an additional £20m and the residue of the MSD sum will have to be paid on December 2025 - though that could be rolled over if a lender is willing

I acknowledge that wages will be cut substantially - maybe to the £30m - £35m mark and certain 1 off player trading revenues have been incoming, and that matchday revenues (for now at least) look to be very strong this season (a new experience and positive for the club following relegation) though operational revenues are unlikely to exceed £60m even if the parachute payment has been increased (we still do not know)

There are financial challenges in both staying down and being promoted, though it is better to have the boost in revenues that promotion offers and one wonders if next summer could generate enough operational and player trading profit to meet the expected costs if we do not get promoted.

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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by Lancasterclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:02 pm

daveisaclaret wrote:
Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:49 am
ALK have put the club in loads of debt, and used the club's money to pay off half the debt.

You can't ignore the first part and pretend the second part is a good deed. It's nonsense.
I'm on record on here with my opinions on the buying of the club and how bad it is

But I'm also a realist, no one else wanted it and Garlick wasn't interested

I'm pleasantly surprised that we paid off a huge chunk of the debt, built a new team and attracted a high profile manager who can clearly attract players

What they have done this summer deserves praise
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Re: Burnley's MSD loan reduction essentially confirmed

Post by RVclaret » Sat Aug 27, 2022 12:02 pm

Dyche’s pay off will depend on the specifics of his contract, for example if he gets a job tomorrow, the pay off would be substantially less than if his next job is in 3 years - unlikely.

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