Benefit system to get a 10.1% pay increase

[boatshed bill]

Imagine what that 35bn,could be spent on....... Yet some on this very board, describe it as a few nicking a copper or two. And don't you dare suggest we should try and stop them.

Strange, if they know how much is being lost to tax fraud then they should know who is doing it and they should be able to do something about it.

[MancunianClaret]

Imagine what that 35bn,could be spent on....... Yet some on this very board, describe it as a few nicking a copper or two. And don't you dare suggest we should try and stop them.

I think the "nicking coppers" comment was talking about benefit fraud wasn't it? Not tax fraud/evasion/avoidance, which equates to almost four times as much.

[Nori1958]

Strange, if they know how much is being lost to tax fraud then they should know who is doing it and they should be able to do something about it.

Tax fraud means you are paying something into the system at least

Benefit fraud is the opposite, so apologies and let's stick at the 8bn

[dsr]

The amount of tax lost in Britain through non-payment, avoidance and fraud has increased to £35bn, according to official figures.

Source: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ers-due-to

Why are we upset with people on benefits again?

How can they assess the tax lost by "avoidance"? What do they define "avoidance" as? Avoidance is legally arranging your affairs to pay less tax, so for example getting an electric company car because it pays less tax than a petrol one would be avoidance of tax. It's strange to say that's a cost to the exchequer.

[boatshed bill]

Tax fraud means you are paying something into the system

Benefit fraud is the opposite

Sorry, I thought fraud is a crime?

[MancunianClaret]

Strange, if they know how much is being lost to tax fraud then they should know who is doing it and they should be able to do something about it.

Those who make the rules are generally those who benefit from them.

[Nori1958]

Sorry, I thought fraud is a crime?

It is....

[Nori1958]

I think the "nicking coppers" comment was talking about benefit fraud wasn't it? Not tax fraud/evasion/avoidance, which equates to almost four times as much.

It was, so 8bn is OK?

[boatshed bill]

It is....

I don't understand your statement that tax fraudsters are paying something in to the system.
But if you mean they are spending their ill-gotten gains in this country, and therefore into the economy then that would definitely apply to benefit fraudsters too.

[MancunianClaret]

It was, so 8bn is OK?

Keep in mind some of that is due to errors made by DWP, not necessarily all of it is benefit fraud.

It's not okay no, but it seems disingenuous to focus your ire on individuals getting a couple of hundred quid more than they should here or there rather than on multinationals and the ultra-wealthy like Jeff Bezos taking multiples more. You're doing exactly what they want you to do - fight over the scraps whilst they feed at the trough.

[Gaia]

Yeah within the error DWP figures it includes mistakes made and also not getting to do the work on time which may be due to understaffing.

[Nori1958]

I don't understand your statement that tax fraudsters are paying something in to the system.
But if you mean they are spending their ill-gotten gains in this country, and therefore into the economy then that would definitely apply to benefit fraudsters too.

They are paying something into the system, just not as much as they should, but should still be punished, just like people who commit benefit fraud, who pay nothing into the system in order to commit their crimes

It was a flippant comment which I hoped would have been taken as intended, I apologise

[Nori1958]

Keep in mind some of that is due to errors made by DWP, not necessarily all of it is benefit fraud.

It's not okay no, but it seems disingenuous to focus your ire on individuals getting a couple of hundred quid more than they should here or there rather than on multinationals and the ultra-wealthy like Jeff Bezos taking multiples more. You're doing exactly what they want you to do - fight over the scraps whilst they feed at the trough.

Fine... Let's all have a go at claiming stuff we're not entitled to.... Just a couple of hundred quid here and there those cheeky little criminals are the salt of the earth, hopefully they don't spend their ill gotten gains on amazon, now that would be criminal

[boatshed bill]

They are paying something into the system, just not as much as they should, but should still be punished, just like people who commit benefit fraud, who pay nothing into the system in order to commit their crimes

It was a flippant comment which I hoped would have been taken as intended, I apologise

No problem.
From my own experience:
When I set up my first business I went to a well respected (expensive) accountancy firm. The first thing they told me was that they would find ways of making sure I didn't pay much tax, if any. I think this is the mentality with businesses and tax.

[davideyresleftear]

The amount of people I know on long-term sick, who have never officially worked but are well enough for side hustles is absolutely mindblowing... A tiny fraction of that 2.5m will be genuinely too sick to work... You'd have to be very naive to believe that the whole 2.5m is genuine...

Also, regarding your comment "Lot of them are just waiting for their issues to be fixed, but can't because of the issues with the NHS"... Do you have the stats to prove that or have you just made that up?

Posts an irrelevant, unsubstantiated example from his own life, says ‘a tiny fraction of that 2.5m will be genuinely too sick to work’ without providing any sources or evidence whatsoever, and then asks another poster for stats to back up their claims. Only on UTC

[Nori1958]

No problem.
From my own experience:
When I set up my first business I went to a well respected (expensive) accountancy firm. The first thing they told me was that they would find ways of making sure I didn't pay much tax, if any. I think this is the mentality with businesses and tax.

Most accountants I know say similar, though I think they do advise to pay some tax, more just how you can claim tax relief on certain expenditure... Which is actual legal.

[boatshed bill]

Most accountants I know say similar, though I think they do advise to pay some tax, more just how you can claim tax relief on certain expenditure... Which is actual legal.

Yep, I know it's legal. Not sure I agree with it on a moral basis.

[Nori1958]

Yep, I know it's legal. Not sure I agree with it on a moral basis.

Agreed

[jojomk1]

How about everybody take a deep breath and wait till Hunt reveals his plans tomorrow

Hopefully big earning companies and individuals will have to fork out more to the treasury than the rest of us

Exciting times

[nil_desperandum]

Post deleted by poster - as covered elsewhere on this thread.

[bfcjg]

Just how though will we as a country last by out spending what we earn ? The tax the rich tax the bankers tax the energy companies cry will go to what ?
https://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

Put this on a few hours ago, we all bicker and argue but again how will we pay our way in the world if we don't start getting debt down, that means living within our means, growing the economy sp we have real not borrowealth.
I did some work at Promethian ( interactive whiteboards) and always remember a technician who worked in.the far East saying how the A level science we teach is what they get taught at junior level, they have such a strong work ethic as well, he reckoned within 50 years the West would be a second world economy with the begging bowl out to countries like Singapore, Taiwan etc . I can see it coming TBH.

[Jakubclaret]

You're also not against nervous drivers having a spliff or a pint or two before driving as they (and us) would be safer on the roads with chilled out relaxed drivers. You are either trying way too hard to be controversial or you're a very troubled and sad individual with no grasp of reality.

It's not difficult to be controversial display the slightest of right wing views away you go you instantly fall into the persecuted minority more so when expressing an opinion. Regarding the drugs & driving I'm pretty sure at the time I mentioned looking at studies & analysing if drivers on low levels of benzodiazepans were safer drivers rather than driving recklessly overcome with anxiety & panic mania.

[Swizzlestick]

It's not difficult to be controversial display the slightest of right wing views away you go you instantly fall into the persecuted minority

[Big Vinny K]

“The slightest of right wing views” ????????

JC makes Genghis Khan look like Tony Benn.

The views he has expressed on this board in the last couple of years would make a really interesting book.
And when I say interesting I mean as in Mein Kampf

[dsr]

Yep, I know it's legal. Not sure I agree with it on a moral basis.

To what extent? If, for example, the law says that you can claim 130% capital allowances on certain items of plant and machinery, is it immoral to do so? What about 100%?

Like I said about people driving electric company cars - they're avoiding tax. Are they immoral? If you apply the tax laws as the government has written them, without going to silly extremes like the Glasgow Rangers "loans" instead of wages, I don't see any objection, moral or otherwise.

[ClaretPete001]

To what extent? If, for example, the law says that you can claim 130% capital allowances on certain items of plant and machinery, is it immoral to do so? What about 100%?

Like I said about people driving electric company cars - they're avoiding tax. Are they immoral? If you apply the tax laws as the government has written them, without going to silly extremes like the Glasgow Rangers "loans" instead of wages, I don't see any objection, moral or otherwise.

To what extent? If, for example, the law says that you can claim 130% capital allowances on certain items of plant and machinery, is it immoral to do so? What about 100%?

Like I said about people driving electric company cars - they're avoiding tax. Are they immoral? If you apply the tax laws as the government has written them, without going to silly extremes like the Glasgow Rangers "loans" instead of wages, I don't see any objection, moral or otherwise.

It's interesting that the same people who think it is perfectly reasonable to take £123 million (according to CP) out of a community club at great risk with the sole intention of making money argue against tax avoidance.

I can't think of anything more amoral than leveraged buyouts where the buyer passes the risk to the community and benefits from the reward.

At the end of the day moral arguments about public spending is like playing on a see saw by yourself. If you don't create it you can't spend it. The British economy is a dog and you can try to get more tax revenue but the poor can't afford it, the middle classes don't want to pay and rich avoid it so....!

[Damo]

This thread is a prime example of why this sort of shyte was banned for a while.
6 pages of nonsense

[Clive 1960]

I gave up certain benefit when I emigrated because of my disability as you can't claim it in the country I'm in but you can in other European countries. The only one I could take is my industrial injures benefit. That's life.

[Zlatan]

Some good discussion on this thread intermingled with idiocy as usual, but as it’s still here I thought I’d chip in.

I wanted to find the simplistic meme using cookies that describes wealth distribution but found this article instead. It explains it well and represents how I feel about this quite accurately.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wealth-i ... _b_1656698

It always amazes me that people like us (all of us as I don’t expect billionaires to be on this forum) seem to argue about what the elite allow us to have. I believe we should work together to improve society, yet by using the “oh look, that scrounger is stealing your money” approach by the elite to divide the populace when in reality we should be uniting to demand more of the cookies.

[CoolClaret]

Some good discussion on this thread intermingled with idiocy as usual, but as it’s still here I thought I’d chip in.

I wanted to find the simplistic meme using cookies that describes wealth distribution but found this article instead. It explains it well and represents how I feel about this quite accurately.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/wealth-i ... _b_1656698

It always amazes me that people like us (all of us as I don’t expect billionaires to be on this forum) seem to argue about what the elite allow us to have. I believe we should work together to improve society, yet by using the “oh look, that scrounger is stealing your money” approach by the elite to divide the populace when in reality we should be uniting to demand more of the cookies.

Zlatan - i really think you’ll like this guy, Gary Stevenson
Former trader for City Group but from humble beginnings in east London

https://youtu.be/ViY-zI3b5JQ

https://youtube.com/c/GarysEconomics

[Lancasterclaret]

Well, we are going to find out today what the plan is

I doubt it will be good

[Granny WeatherWax]

It won’t happen, but I’d be cancelling HS2 in its entirety before they make the working person pay more tax.

[Nori1958]

Well, we are going to find out today what the plan is

I doubt it will be good

Only what I've read.... Triple lock pensions to stay benefits to increase as per cost of living.. Not bad
Windfall taxes on energy companies.. What everyone has called for
More people into the higher tax bands

Obviously not all good news, but maybe not a bad as some are predicting unless you're a billionaire energy company owner... Not sure we have many of those on here.

[Lancasterclaret]

It won’t happen, but I’d be cancelling HS2 in its entirety before they make the working person pay more tax.

Thing is, the original idea of HS2 to the North and Leeds was exactly the kind of infrastructure the UK needs

The current one that is stopping in Birmingham is exactly what we don't need, though I suppose it could always be extended in the future

[Granny WeatherWax]

Thing is, the original idea of HS2 to the North and Leeds was exactly the kind of infrastructure the UK needs

The current one that is stopping in Birmingham is exactly what we don't need, though I suppose it could always be extended in the future

We should crack on with NPHR in its entirety but scrap the white elephant that is HS2.

[Lancasterclaret]

We should crack on with NPHR in its entirety but scrap the white elephant that is HS2.

Ideally we'd do both

Some sort of "New Deal" for the Uks infrastructure is required

We have a real chance to be at the absolute forefront of green innovations and tech as well, but can we do that in the midst of an economic crisis?

Can we afford not to?

[Healeywoodclaret]

The hypocrisy of people complaining about the amounts those on benefits receive, yet were happy to receive generous payments whilst on furlough.

I'm sure they were. I personally was never furlouhed. Continued working through the Pandemic. NHS.

[Jamesy]

This thread is a prime example of why this sort of shyte was banned for a while.
6 pages of nonsense

Most sensible post on here pal. It will soon be even more pages of shyte if Mods don’t see sense and lock it.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Most sensible post on here pal. It will soon be even more pages of shyte if Mods don’t see sense and lock it.

Just don’t read it if you don’t like it?

Bit like the Ricky Gervais joke about the Guitar lessons.

[Hipper]

***Good quality advice alert*** One thing’s for sure, the state pension is worth bugger all so make sure you are putting at least 10% of your wage into a good quality pension scheme.

The UK full (maximum) state pension is £185 per week/£9,000 per year. It's not a living wage but it's more then 'bugger all'. Sensible people must surely know that they need a second pension from their employers or privately. Most people will have this (I do).

I don't know what benefits if any can be claimed by those living only on a state pension.

[Gaia]

The UK State Pension is the lowest in Europe.

[evensteadiereddie]

It's not difficult to be controversial display the slightest of right wing views away you go you instantly fall into the persecuted minority more so when expressing an opinion. Regarding the drugs & driving I'm pretty sure at the time I mentioned looking at studies & analysing if drivers on low levels of benzodiazepans were safer drivers rather than driving recklessly overcome with anxiety & panic mania.

Don't flatter yourself, your views aren't deliberately controversial, they are simply ill thought out and stupid.

On the now defunct "Ashley Barnes Arrested" thread on Thursday, May 20th last year you were of the opinion and stated quite categorically that "Some people are better/safer drivers whilst under the influence of drink/ drugs because it makes nervous drivers relaxed and less likely to make mistakes/accidents."

You did go onto to wonder whether this was provable or not. I think our current legislation would suggest not, wouldn't you?
So, again, no persecution - you wish! - just normal folk questioning your version of events.

[boatshed bill]

To what extent? If, for example, the law says that you can claim 130% capital allowances on certain items of plant and machinery, is it immoral to do so? What about 100%?

Like I said about people driving electric company cars - they're avoiding tax. Are they immoral? If you apply the tax laws as the government has written them, without going to silly extremes like the Glasgow Rangers "loans" instead of wages, I don't see any objection, moral or otherwise.

Morals are down to the individual, morally speaking I don't like tax avoidance.

[Mala591]

The UK full (maximum) state pension is £185 per week/£9,000 per year. It's not a living wage but it's more then 'bugger all'. Sensible people must surely know that they need a second pension from their employers or privately. Most people will have this (I do).

I don't know what benefits if any can be claimed by those living only on a state pension.

It doesn’t go far when £2,000 is immediately ‘taken away’ for council tax (why can’t this be based on income rather than the size/value of your house?) and £2,500 goes on annual energy costs!

[dsr]

Morals are down to the individual, morally speaking I don't like tax avoidance.

You wouldn't have an ISA, then?

[dsr]

It doesn’t go far when £2,000 is immediately ‘taken away’ for council tax (why can’t this be based on income rather than the size/value of your house?) and £2,500 goes on annual energy costs!

Even after expected rises coming up, the average council tax for a single person will be "only" £1,500, and single people are unlikely to have that high an energy cost either.

As I understand it, pensioners with no income other than the basic state pension get benefits as well, don't they?

[fatboy47]

Most sensible post on here pal. It will soon be even more pages of shyte if Mods don’t see sense and lock it.

No shortage of "shyte" anywhere on the board. The key lies in one's ability to differentiate, and then carefully select one's preferred material.
I find it entertaining to watch the likes of AlargeClaret and Eddie giving the trolls, Sun readers and flat cap philanthropists a good shoeing.
If you stick to the "" can you pay on the gate? "" type stuff we can all be happy.

[Lancasterclaret]

You wouldn't have an ISA, then?

There is a bit of a difference between a person saving tax on his savings, and millionaire/billionaires doing stuff dsr

Its epic whataboutery

[dsr]

There is a bit of a difference between a person saving tax on his savings, and millionaire/billionaires doing stuff dsr

Its epic whataboutery

There's a lot of difference. But I'm impressed if boatshedbill really does mean that he thinks it's morally wrong to take any steps to mitigate tax costs, and I was just wondering if he really does mean that to the nth degree.

[Lancasterclaret]

There's a lot of difference. But I'm impressed if boatshedbill really does mean that he thinks it's morally wrong to take any steps to mitigate tax costs, and I was just wondering if he really does mean that to the nth degree.

You are going full Rowls here dsr

You know its an unfair comparison