Lightbulb moment

[Lancasterclaret]

We both know that it couldn't have happened had she not held dual citizenship but that is not the point and we both know it.

We also both know that the decision to revoke her citizenship is based on where her parents are from and her religion, and the desire to make sure political capital was made over it

I repeat, she is British, and she is our problem

If she is guilty, then she should serve time in the Uk jail, as would any other UK citizen

[Bosscat]

I don't profess to understand the ins and outs but isn't her husband a Dutch Citizen (allbeit in prison in Syria or somewhere) so shouldn't she be the problem of The Netherland Authorities

[aggi]

We both know that it couldn't have happened had she not held dual citizenship but that is not the point and we both know it.

It definitely could because she did not have dual citizenship at the time.

The British argument was that she was eligible to apply for citizenship of another country (e.g. like everyone with an Irish parent or grandparent) so it was fine.

[Rowls]

We also both know that the decision to revoke her citizenship is based on where her parents are from and her religion, and the desire to make sure political capital was made over it

I repeat, she is British, and she is our problem

If she is guilty, then she should serve time in the Uk jail, as would any other UK citizen

I wasn't sure if you were implying that the decision to revoke her citizenship was based on the nation of her second nationality or the culture of her second nationality. As you've explicitly now claimed the decision was undertaken on cultural grounds: I disagree with this entirely. There is no evidence to back up what you're claiming whatsoever. You appear to be implying some kind of 'racism' or 'islamophobia' where there is no evidence of that whatsoever.

There are plenty of well established facts of why Savid Javid took the decision to revoke her citizenship: She chose to join a proscribed terrorist organisation and went out of her way to join this organisation. It took a lot of skill, planning and persistence to join this group. She knew exactly what the group was doing and aware of their murderous reputation. Once she had joined the group she was reportedly took a role as an "enforcer" in ISIL's "morality police", and tried to recruit other young women to join the jihadist group. She was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle and earned a reputation as a strict enforcer of ISIL's laws, such as dress codes for women." Link here

There may also be reasons that we do not know about on security grounds.

From a legal perspective, it's simply incorrect to say that "she is British". She is not. Her citizenship has been revoked. She is not British.

She is not going to be found "guilty" of anything in this particular legal case because she is not being tried with anything. It is simply a challenge to the decision to revoke her citizenship.

If she wins this appeal and regains British citizenship then no doubt she will be put on trial and, one would suspect, found guilty of crimes pertaining to joining and belonging to a terorist organisation.

[Rowls]

It definitely could because she did not have dual citizenship at the time.

The British argument was that she was eligible to apply for citizenship of another country (e.g. like everyone with an Irish parent or grandparent) so it was fine.

Wikipedia and/or the British government appear to contradict what you're saying:

"However, the UK government contended that Begum was a dual national, also holding citizenship of Bangladesh, and was not therefore made stateless by the decision."

Link Here

[aggi]

Wikipedia and/or the British government appear to contradict what you're saying:



Link Here

You seem to have missed the second sentence

The Government of Bangladesh stated that Begum did not currently hold Bangladeshi citizenship and, without it, would not be allowed to enter Bangladesh

[Rowls]

You seem to have missed the second sentence

One side says one thing, another says another. Let's be honest, neither of us can reasonably know who is telling the truth.

However, given the fact that her apparent lack of Bangladeshi citizenship is not being used as part of her legal challenge, I would make the assumption that the British government's position on the matter is the one that, shall we say, holds more legal sway in this particular case.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Just seen this silly thread while watching the World Cup, what an insult to those thousands of poor victims in towns like Burnley to compare them to Begum.

The main difference is what they were groomed to do and the personal responsibility for what happens afterwards. Loads of people commit crimes after being “brain washed” including many vulnerable males. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be punished for it. Loads of abusers were abused themselves as children - doesn’t make them less responsible.

I’m not particularly qualified to offer a view on letting her back to the UK, but comparing her to those other young girls who have committed no crime and have had their lives ruined - inappropriate.

[Venkys4eva]

I wouldn't p*** on her if she was on fire personally

[Zlatan]

It’s a simple and straightforward No from me.

Law needs to be changed so it’s easier to remove your citizenship if you go to a country and join a terrorist organisation.

Hypothetically speaking had she been a 15-year-old blonde called Sharon (of Swedish heritage) who was groomed the same way she was and ended up in a terrorist organisation, would you have the same opinion?

EDIT - not aimed at you specifically, but the hypothetical applies to all

[Rowls]

Hypothetically speaking had she been a 15-year-old blonde called Sharon (of Swedish heritage) who was groomed the same way she was and ended up in a terrorist organisation, would you have the same opinion?

EDIT - not aimed at you specifically, but the hypothetical applies to all

Hypothetically, it's neither here nor there because so much of what makes Begum's case unique would not apply. But if you insist, then yes, I'd be supportive of the decision if her other nationality had been Swedish rather than Bangladeshi.

There appear to be a minority here trying to make this debate about her race, her Islamic faith or Bangladeshi culture when it is about none of these things: It is about her actions in joining a terrorist organisation.

[Lancasterclaret]

Hypothetically, it's neither here nor there because so much of what makes Begum's case unique would not apply. But if you insist, then yes, I'd be supportive of the decision if her other nationality had been Swedish rather than Bangladeshi.

There appear to be a minority here trying to make this debate about her race, her Islamic faith or Bangladeshi culture when it is about none of these things: It is about her actions in joining a terrorist organisation.

And there are a minority who appear not to accept that she was groomed

And being on this board as long as I have, its not exactly rocket science to work out why

I repeat, cos I know people will ignore what I've actually said, that doesn't excuse what she did, but it doesn't change the fact that she was a child when she made her decision to join ISIS

The fact that she was a child should count for quite a bit, even on here

[Colburn_Claret]

Hypothetically speaking had she been a 15-year-old blonde called Sharon (of Swedish heritage) who was groomed the same way she was and ended up in a terrorist organisation, would you have the same opinion?

EDIT - not aimed at you specifically, but the hypothetical applies to all

Can only speak personally, but yes I would have the same opinion.
It's one thing to disagree with your country, there are plenty of platforms to voice your opinion, but when it goes to joining a terrorist organisation, by choice not through grooming, that is dedicated to destroying everything "your" country holds of value, then you forfeit the right to class yourself as a citizen. Colour or religion doesn't have anything to do with it.

[RVclaret]

Don’t care if she was a child. Don’t care if she was groomed.

Hope she never steps foot in this country again. Waste of our air.

[Lancasterclaret]

Don’t care if she was a child. Don’t care if she was groomed.

Hope she never steps foot in this country again. Waste of our air.

Yup, that is UTC in a nutshell sadly

Who cares about her age and that she was indoctrinated at an early age?

Why look at why and what happened when we can all shout from the rooftops about how bad she is?

[Colburn_Claret]

And there are a minority who appear not to accept that she was groomed

And being on this board as long as I have, its not exactly rocket science to work out why

I repeat, cos I know people will ignore what I've actually said, that doesn't excuse what she did, but it doesn't change the fact that she was a child when she made her decision to join ISIS

The fact that she was a child should count for quite a bit, even on here

Are there a majority that believe she was groomed.....

Imo she was drawn to it like a moth to a candle, she wasn't bribed, threatened or coerced. She went looking for this, and she jumped in with both feet gladly. No remorse or regrets, she even tried to recruit others.
The change of stance was inevitable once she was captured, it doesn't mean we have to buy into it.

[bfcjg]

She wanted to live in an Islamic country as is her right, she could go and live in Pakistan if they'd have her or numerous other Muslim countries, some journalists who have interviewed her are very sceptical of her motives.

[Lancasterclaret]

Are there a majority that believe she was groomed.....

Imo she was drawn to it like a moth to a candle, she wasn't bribed, threatened or coerced. She went looking for this, and she jumped in with both feet gladly. No remorse or regrets, she even tried to recruit others.
The change of stance was inevitable once she was captured, it doesn't mean we have to buy into it.

I don't know if she was groomed or not Colburn, but I certainly believe its possible, because 15 year old kids don't do things off their own back, especially something as serious as this

I'd want to know why a 15 year old girl thought that ISIS was a better bet than the UK, and I'm surprised that more people aren't worried about that bit as well to be honest

[fatboy47]

Populism, bigotry and the lynch-mob mentality are all alive and well, and thriving on UTC.

I despair sometimes.

[Colburn_Claret]

I don't know if she was groomed or not Colburn, but I certainly believe its possible, because 15 year old kids don't do things off their own back, especially something as serious as this

I'd want to know why a 15 year old girl thought that ISIS was a better bet than the UK, and I'm surprised that more people aren't worried about that bit as well to be honest

I'm not going to list my sins from being a 13 year old, sufficient to say I was an arsehole at best. I regret many of the mistakes I made back then, but I made them through my own folly, not because of anyone else.
Again it's my opinion, but I believe she knew exactly what she was getting into. Her reasonings are her own, and only she will know the truth, but I doubt we'll ever get to hear it.

There's nothing wrong with having a compassionate heart, the world would be better if we all did, but in this case I just have no sympathy for her at all. She washed her hands of this country, it's only fair that this country washes their hands of her.

[Lancasterclaret]

I'm not going to list my sins from being a 13 year old, sufficient to say I was an arsehole at best. I regret many of the mistakes I made back then, but I made them through my own folly, not because of anyone else.
Again it's my opinion, but I believe she knew exactly what she was getting into. Her reasonings are her own, and only she will know the truth, but I doubt we'll ever get to hear it.

There's nothing wrong with having a compassionate heart, the world would be better if we all did, but in this case I just have no sympathy for her at all. She washed her hands of this country, it's only fair that this country washes their hands of her.

I doubt she'd be a loss Colburn, but that isn't the point

She is British, was a kid when it happened, and whatever consequences she suffers, she should suffer here, and we should really be asking why (or what influenced her) she went to ISIS

[Big Vinny K]

None of us know the details of this case so I’m surprised (I’m not really surprised tbh) that so many people on this thread can use the language they have in condemning her.
Language like she knew exactly what she was doing when she was 15 years old. In my view that is such a crazy thing to say about any 15 year old let alone a 15 year old you know little or nothing about.

What I am pretty convinced about is that the governments interventions and decisions so far are politically led. Decisions like this should not be influenced by governments and what they believe will endear themselves to the public. It’s a complex case no doubt and not as black and white as people like to make out when forming their opinions. Cases like this should be dealt with by independent bodies - or even better by the justice system which should be independent with no possibility for a politician to override a decision or intervene / influence this in any way.

[Colburn_Claret]

I doubt she'd be a loss Colburn, but that isn't the point

She is British, was a kid when it happened, and whatever consequences she suffers, she should suffer here, and we should really be asking why (or what influenced her) she went to ISIS

She forfeited the right to call herself British when she did what she did, and as I said that would hold true if she was a 15 year old, blue eyed, blonde. I agree that we should understand what influenced her, but that doesn't mean she is going to be honest, or open about it. I'm sure today atm, she'll have a massive list of reasons, all designed to draw sympathy. How many of them will be genuine.
If she was 'groomed', she could have told the authorities any time over the last 4 years, WHO contacted her, WHO led them to her, WHEN did they contact her, HOW did they contact her, WHY did they contact her, WHAT did they offer her.
IF she was groomed Lancs, then there has to be historical evidence to support her story, but as far as I'm aware, she hasn't offered a story. All she has said is she regrets it. Well so do most criminals when they get caught. It's the capture that causes the regret, not the actions.

[Lancasterclaret]

She forfeited the right to call herself British when she did what she did, and as I said that would hold true if she was a 15 year old, blue eyed, blonde. I agree that we should understand what influenced her, but that doesn't mean she is going to be honest, or open about it. I'm sure today atm, she'll have a massive list of reasons, all designed to draw sympathy. How many of them will be genuine.
If she was 'groomed', she could have told the authorities any time over the last 4 years, WHO contacted her, WHO led them to her, WHEN did they contact her, HOW did they contact her, WHY did they contact her, WHAT did they offer her.
IF she was groomed Lancs, then there has to be historical evidence to support her story, but as far as I'm aware, she hasn't offered a story. All she has said is she regrets it. Well so do most criminals when they get caught. It's the capture that causes the regret, not the actions.

No one is arguing that she shouldn't stand trial as far as I know CC

The difference is that I think that should happen here because she is British, whether we like it or not

[Rowls]

And there are a minority who appear not to accept that she was groomed

Well you can count me out of that group.

There is certainly an element of coercion that could be called grooming. Equally there was a good degree of self determination on Begum's part. She was 15 at the time. Legally a minor but not a child. Reportedly very bright and intelligent.

Her own father reported that she was unrepentent or her actions in 2019 when she would have been 19 or 20. Her recent disavowal of Muslim extremism needs to be put into context that she might just be making it up.

Her case seems very harsh to me, but within the law and within reason. The security forces seem to be very determined to prevent her regaining citizenship. This seems very telling.

It's a legal case that certainly deserves to be heard fully but it can do without the kind of baseless insinuations that have been thrown around on this thread.

[aggi]

There must be a lot of support for lowering the voting age to 16 judging by this thread.

[Rowls]

There must be a lot of support for lowering the voting age to 16 judging by this thread.

"So what you're saying is..."

Voting requires you to weigh up various options all seeking similar outcomes. You should be making your judgement using higher cognitive abilities and weighing that with your experiences of life.

To be held accountable before a court of law the age is 13. Cognitive scientists inform us that children as young as 18 months know the difference between right and wrong. This is a very simple and inate cognition.

[Bosscat]

Got to hand to Ms Begum she has a few on this board weapped round her little finger

[tiger76]

There must be a lot of support for lowering the voting age to 16 judging by this thread.

It already is 16 in Scotland was lowered a few years ago.

[Colburn_Claret]

No one is arguing that she shouldn't stand trial as far as I know CC

The difference is that I think that should happen here because she is British, whether we like it or not

Apart from joining a banned organisation, her crimes were committed in Iraq, against Iraqis and Kurds. Surely even you can see she should be tried there.
I was more concerned about what happens to her after any trial, or sentence. I don't believe she should ever come back to this country, and if she is tried and convicted here, then we'll never be rid of her. I'd rather she walked away from justice if it means she doesn't come back, ever.

[bobinho]

Wow. Just wow.

Some smart arsed lawyer with both eyes on the money and fame and none on the actual fact she’s an Islamic terrorism sympathiser has by suggestion convinced folk on here that she’s actually a victim of grooming. Dressing her up in western clothes and a baseball cap to soften everything and make her look more ‘human’ is nothing more than propaganda to convince us all she’s harmless. She isn’t. She’s dangerous.
Anyone from these shores convicted or even suspected of being part of Isis or Islamic state shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near this country ever again.

No surprise for anyone out there what my views are. I’m sick to the back teeth of us being a soft touch.

The reality is she’ll be back before you know it. Tapping into the vast amounts of money that will be flowing her way from the tabloids wanting the whole seedy made up story. They’ll lap it up, as will the gullible on here. The mere suggestion that she’s every bit a victim of groomers as those poor young girls in all those towns who were groomed by those filthy animals (who should now be deported) is an absolute insult to them. Disgraceful talk, shame on you.

MOD: I have looked at this post and given the context I see no reason not to allow it. I have changed one offending word.

[TonbridgeClaret]

My second crime novel covered this subject. When I started my research, and before I'd written a word, I had the same opinion as Rowls & co. However, after speaking with many Muslims, including a female Islamic convert who now lives near Bradford, and the Imam from our local Mosque, I wrote a different story to the one I had originally planned.

I now find myself agreeing with Lancaster & co.

People like Begun are capable of change and finding redemption, and if they do, they could prove to be invaluable in the fight against radicalisation.

[TonbridgeClaret]

I should add that she should be tried for her crimes first.

[evensteadiereddie]

My second crime novel covered this subject. When I started my research, and before I'd written a word, I had the same opinion as Rowls & co. However, after speaking with many Muslims, including a female Islamic convert who now lives near Bradford, and the Imam from our local Mosque, I wrote a different story to the one I had originally planned.

I now find myself agreeing with Lancaster & co.

People like Begun are capable of change and finding redemption, and if they do, they could prove to be invaluable in the fight against radicalisation.

My goodness, someone who actually knows what they are talking about.
Outrageous!

[aggi]

"So what you're saying is..."

Voting requires you to weigh up various options all seeking similar outcomes. You should be making your judgement using higher cognitive abilities and weighing that with your experiences of life.

To be held accountable before a court of law the age is 13. Cognitive scientists inform us that children as young as 18 months know the difference between right and wrong. This is a very simple and inate cognition.

If people are expecting a fifteen year old to have the cognitive ability to recognise that a consequence of joining a terrorist organisation is to lose her British citizenship in a highly complicated legal manner then I'm surprised that they don't think they have the cognitive ability to vote in an election.

Nothing to do with right or wrong and the consequences of being sent to jail, etc.

[Rowls]

My second crime novel covered this subject. When I started my research, and before I'd written a word, I had the same opinion as Rowls & co. However, after speaking with many Muslims, including a female Islamic convert who now lives near Bradford, and the Imam from our local Mosque, I wrote a different story to the one I had originally planned.

I now find myself agreeing with Lancaster & co.

People like Begun are capable of change and finding redemption, and if they do, they could prove to be invaluable in the fight against radicalisation.

"Rowls & co"

I've said that her case is harsh, but it has withstood legal challenge and I think, considering what we know, it is not unjust. But who knows? Maybe Begum will prove to be an invaluable in teaching impressionable young Muslims a salutory lesson on what might happen if you actually go jihadi.

In that respect, she is currently a shining example to many. Thanks to the law holding firm, for once.

[Rowls]

If people are expecting a fifteen year old to have the cognitive ability to recognise that a consequence of joining a terrorist organisation is to lose her British citizenship in a highly complicated legal manner then I'm surprised that they don't think they have the cognitive ability to vote in an election.

Nothing to do with right or wrong and the consequences of being sent to jail, etc.

"So what you're saying is..."

That is precisely not what I was saying.

My point was that she will have understood that she was joining a extremist and evangelical Muslim religious cult that revelled in killing any non-Muslims and was notorious for it's brutality and attrocities. That apparently appealed to her religious fervour, but she certainly knew it.

[1882Clarets1882]

We also both know that the decision to revoke her citizenship is based on where her parents are from and her religion, and the desire to make sure political capital was made over it

I repeat, she is British, and she is our problem

If she is guilty, then she should serve time in the Uk jail, as would any other UK citizen

Screenshot_20221122-204122_Google.jpg (253.95 KiB) Viewed 1946 times

This is Jehadi Jack. Jack Letts, born in Oxford . He joined ISIS. He too had his citizenship revoked.

[Rowls]

Screenshot_20221122-204122_Google.jpg

This is Jehadi Jack. Jack Letts, born in Oxford . He joined ISIS. He too had his citizenship revoked.

Straight white male. Says it all.

He'd probably voted Brexit too, the bigot.

[Rowls]

Screenshot_20221122-204122_Google.jpg

This is Jehadi Jack. Jack Letts, born in Oxford . He joined ISIS. He too had his citizenship revoked.

And to top it all off, his dual nationality is Canadian.

[Nonayforever]

My second crime novel covered this subject. When I started my research, and before I'd written a word, I had the same opinion as Rowls & co. However, after speaking with many Muslims, including a female Islamic convert who now lives near Bradford, and the Imam from our local Mosque, I wrote a different story to the one I had originally planned.

I now find myself agreeing with Lancaster & co.

People like Begun are capable of change and finding redemption, and if they do, they could prove to be invaluable in the fight against radicalisation.

I too, have spoken to our local Imam from the Mosque.
He once asked me if I could get him an Eagle owl as it was supposed to ward off evil spirits.
True story !

[1882Clarets1882]

She played an active role in the ISIS's reign of terror and was allowed to carry a Kalashnikov rifle, earning herself a reputation as a strict “enforcer” of laws, such as dress code.

Begum had been witnessed preparing suicide vests for would-be bombers.

She boasted seeing severed heads in bins ‘didn’t faze me at all’

In 2019 she claimed the Manchester Arena terror bombing was "justified" .

When she chose to leave this country she could not have failed to see the bloody thirsty nature of the death cult she'd be joining. To believe otherwise is ridiculous.

The minimum age of criminality in this country is 10.

This claim of "grooming" never cropped before. Its just the latest attempt by her legal team to justify her return to the UK.

The idea that a 15 year old cannot make conscious decisions aren't responsible for their own actions and thoughts and don't know the difference between what's right and wrong is plain daft. If being a 15 year old means you should be treat as a naive innocent soul , clueless about the world around you. Then why was a 15 year old Greta Thunberg given so much reverence and air time?

She made her bed she can lay in it.

[Volvoclaret]

She's led on many beds

[Lancasterclaret]

Straight white male. Says it all.

He'd probably voted Brexit too, the bigot.

Nowt wrong with voting Brexit Rowls

There is something wrong though if you still think it was the right call though!

I want her tried to see if she's guilty, I want it done in a British court because she's British and I don't want her deported to a country she's never lived in just because it gets votes for politicians who should know better

I want an investigation into whether she was groomed, who did it, and why they were successful

That because I don't believe in justice by tabloid headlines, and I believe that our country is better than that

How much clearer do you want me to be?

[Rowls]

I have to tip my hat to you Lancs, for returning to this thread.

All the best and goodnight!

[Lancasterclaret]

I have to tip my hat to you Lancs, for returning to this thread.

All the best and goodnight!

I've been watching Captain America - The Winter Soldier

I only came back on because my lad told me Kompany was being a legend about Ronaldo

[Bosscat]

I've been watching Captain America - The Winter Soldier

I only came back on because my lad told me Kompany was being a legend about Ronaldo

[TsarBomba]

She was groomed. That’s all I will say.

And saying she was groomed does not admonish her of any responsibility.

[bfcjg]

This respected journalist has interviewed her a few times, I think Begum is grooming some on this messageboard.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.lbc.co ... rs-ukrain/

[Chobulous]

It already is 16 in Scotland was lowered a few years ago.

Please don’t hold Scotland up as some sort of shining light of liberalism. The voting age of 16 was introduced with both eyes firmly on a future referendum and for no other reason.