ENG v FRA

Lancasterclaret · Post by **Lancasterclaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:17 pm

Regarding the first French goal being a foul, then yes, it was

But the ball moved sight? nine? times after that, and England were too deep to close down the shot (which was fantastic shot which curled away from Pickford)

End of the day, Lloris made some good saves, Pickford made some good saves, France created some good chances, we created some good chances, but we missed a penalty

No blame for anyone here, we just haven't hit that spot yet where we play well and win but we are looking more and more the real deal every game

claret2018 · Post by **claret2018** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:19 pm

Southgate deserves a stab at the next Euros at least.

I do like the way he picks his team regardless of club form defence-wise, but I wish he’d look at other striking options as Kane hasn’t cut it for England for a while.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:22 pm

Southgate has to go.

We're better than France and if the 2nd pen had gone in I think we'd have won.

But it's Southgate who insists on picking shortarms who would have saved the first if he was Nick Pope and it's Southgate who insists on playing Maguire who lost Giroud for the second. It's also Southgate who has us playing so frustratingly slowly around midfield.

We need an English Vincent Kompany to take over the national team. Progressive, Fast attacking football with a bit of purpose would have smashed France tonight.

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:23 pm

I think Southgate, with the big games, tends to act like a rabbit caught in the headlights and seems to freeze when it comes to making the really important and correct decisions. Earlier in the competition he seemed to be more decisive....

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:26 pm

Watched the game in London ahead of the real footy tomorrow at Loftus Rd and I have to say that yet again England seem to have blown the chance to win this entire bloody thing as we're at least as good, if not better, than every other team left in it. We unfortunately weren't at our best tonight and the ref was utterly useless and definitely didn't help, but we were given and spurned a truly fantastic lifeline and that ultimately was down to us. So unfortunately you've got to say we're unlucky also rans who could have, should have, would have.... yet again this year. And when you look at it, we're not the only ones!!

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:28 pm

MT03ALG wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:23 pm
I think Southgate, with the big games, tends to act like a rabbit caught in the headlights and seems to freeze when it comes to making the really important and correct decisions. Earlier in the competition he seemed to be more decisive....

I don’t think you can say he did much wrong today. Saka stays on for me, bar that can’t really fault him.

I’m not a massive fan but I think he should stay. Can’t see who could do better, really.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:30 pm

Sproggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:22 pm
Southgate has to go.

We're better than France and if the 2nd pen had gone in I think we'd have won.

But it's Southgate who insists on picking shortarms who would have saved the first if he was Nick Pope and it's Southgate who insists on playing Maguire who lost Giroud for the second. It's also Southgate who has us playing so frustratingly slowly around midfield.

We need an English Vincent Kompany to take over the national team. Progressive, Fast attacking football with a bit of purpose would have smashed France tonight.

You mention Kane and Pickford but for me they're the only two guaranteed starters in this whole side. Pope, sadly, blew his England chances with some really bad performances in the summer.

I don't think there's a lot more you can get out of this team technically. The ability is there. There are a few tactical tweaks that might bear fruit, but really what we need is better psychology. That first half was honestly horrible. They were terrified to attack.

Dark Cloud · Post by **Dark Cloud** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:31 pm

Grealish should have been on far, far earlier. A substitution which could seriously affect the match!

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:32 pm

England had lots of huff and puff but very little quality on the ball at times whereas Greizmann just oozed class. He laid on that fantastic cross and regardless of comments, Giroud was just too good. You don't become the top goalscorer for your Country because of others making mistakes.

Close once again but yet so far.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:33 pm

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:28 pm
I don’t think you can say he did much wrong today. Saka stays on for me, bar that can’t really fault him.

I’m not a massive fan but I think he should stay. Can’t see who could do better, really.

Two different points here. 1) we'll win bugger all with Southgate in charge but 2) there's nobody obvious to take over.

Spiral · Post by **Spiral** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:36 pm

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:31 pm
Grealish should have been on far, far earlier. A substitution which could seriously affect the match!

Henderson, as useful as he is if you want a calm presence in midfield when you're Liverpool and you're 2-0 up away from home, found himself in wide positions far too often tonight, and he kills any attacks when he takes up those positions because he doesn't think like a wide player. Grealish would have done the job much better.

NewClaret · Post by **NewClaret** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:37 pm

Sproggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:33 pm
Two different points here. 1) we'll win bugger all with Southgate in charge but 2) there's nobody obvious to take over.

About sums it up. My theory being that eventually you’d expect his experience of these competitions/situations to pay dividends.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:51 pm

NewClaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:37 pm
About sums it up. My theory being that eventually you’d expect his experience of these competitions/situations to pay dividends.

Picking players on form would be a start. But even then, look at the difference between how Burnley try and shift the ball around across midfield and how England do the same thing. With England it's so slow. How many times did we see someone sat in midfield, completely still, foot on the ball? So frustrating to play so slowly given the attacking players we have.

He's not going to change.

Somethingfishy · Post by **Somethingfishy** » Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:58 pm

The first half was too slow..yet again. Southgate clearly had a word at half time and like the Wales game we upped the tempo and France were on the backfoot.
However, it was clear France were regrouping and subs should have been made as they tried to regain a foothold. Instead Giroud scores and it all becomes panicked and a rescue mission. That is my only criticism of Southgate tonight. We needed freshening up earlier.
He's not a top level manager. He doesn't make the crucial calls.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:02 am

We have the strength in depth to run teams ragged for an hour then bring on subs who are as good as those they are replacing.

Instead we play at the pace of an over 50's walking football team.

Stanbill05 · Post by **Stanbill05** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:19 am

I'm a Southgate critic, but have no complaints today. We made France look ordinary for large parts and were unlucky that the fine margins went against us. Didn't do a long wrong today at all, which is not how I felt at the end of the last 2 tournaments.

My criticism of Southgate comes from all those boring games I've suffered over his tenure despite the quality players. Deserves another big tournament though after this one.

BabylonClaret · Post by **BabylonClaret** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:22 am

Not sure you can really blame Southgate. Thought first half we were OK but neither side really threatened much (it's a worldie opener and maybe Pope saves it but you're not playing Pope over pickford.) We should have had a pen 1st half.

Second half France had that koment of quality to score. The ref gave us **** all and didn't protect our players buy honestly Forden Bellingham and saka were causing all sorts of problems so Grealish for one of those too early looked wrong. Maybe pull out Henderson but to be honest we played well.

I don't think Grance deserved it but we lost the fine margins. They were really niggle and managed the game well but the foul on Mount was clearly a red too. Ref was digger all game

Clive 1960 · Post by **Clive 1960** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:56 am

As much as I wanted us to win the world cup I just thought we lacked that little bit extra quality and pace to go and win it , but we have been accustomed to that over the years with England and got used to it . At least we can concentrate on the mighty CLARETS for the rest of the season.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:59 am

Sproggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:22 pm
Southgate has to go.

We're better than France and if the 2nd pen had gone in I think we'd have won.

But it's Southgate who insists on picking shortarms who would have saved the first if he was Nick Pope and it's Southgate who insists on playing Maguire who lost Giroud for the second. It's also Southgate who has us playing so frustratingly slowly around midfield.

We need an English Vincent Kompany to take over the national team. Progressive, Fast attacking football with a bit of purpose would have smashed France tonight.

We're better than France? the world champs? This entitled view is why England fans are so delusional.

I thought we edged it tonight, good entertaining game with 2 very good sides and a poor official.

This ''play faster'' is not that easy against a France side who are sat deep, it takes patience. You slow it down then bang speed it up to try and create space. 100 mph forward flying football would've seen us destroyed on the break.

Open your eyes though, look where we've come from under Southgate, made massive strides. We're now a serious threat at major tournaments not the laughing stock losing to Iceland or the jokers who struggle through qualifying (Remember Beckham Greece free kick?) or even the wally with a brolly side who failed to qualify. if Southgate does decide to walk away, he should do so proud of the work he's done, proud of the culture he's built.

As for the Maguire slander, he was one of our better players, showed why he was picked. Always very good for England. and Pope would have saved it? lmao just stupid talk.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:05 am

Dark Cloud wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:31 pm
Grealish should have been on far, far earlier. A substitution which could seriously affect the match!

I said during the game Id have Rashford on for Foden with 20 to go, Rashford had 15+ minutes and offered nothing.

Easy to be a hindsight Henry and say ''well he should have done that''.

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:07 am

Sproggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:33 pm
Two different points here. 1) we'll win bugger all with Southgate in charge but 2) there's nobody obvious to take over.

You're saying it like England have been serious trophy contenders for decades and were winning trophies pre Southgate.

Turftalker · Post by **Turftalker** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 8:29 am

I'm with KRBFC here. Southgate, for all his flaws, has transformed the culture of this England side. We went out with pride having more than matched the current World Champions. Moreover, you can see there is more to come from this team. If he wants to carry on, he deserves to. More than that, we can continue to grow under his leadership. Unfortunate last night. Proud of England.

BurnleyFC · Post by **BurnleyFC** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 9:05 am

We played well but the substitutions didn’t work or help.

Sterling offered nothing and Grealish and Rashford should’ve been on much earlier.

Tribesmen · Post by **Tribesmen** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:08 am

So all over again as if buts and maybes .

Clovius Boofus · Post by **Clovius Boofus** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:17 am

At least proper football resumes today at 1.00pm.

Big Vinny K · Post by **Big Vinny K** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:19 am

Don’t understand any criticism of the England team last night or in this World Cup. They were the best team last night and created more chances against the current World Champions than most teams could dream of.
They scored 2 very good goals which is something that often happens when a team has world class players all over the pitch even if they are being out played.

Personally I think last nights game was the best by some margin in terms of the quality of play from both teams in this World Cup so far.

And looking forward to future tournaments I don’t see many teams in the world with the young talent England do and that includes the likes of Argentina, Croatia and France

fatboy47 · Post by **fatboy47** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:41 am

Sproggy wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 10, 2022 11:33 pm
2) there's nobody obvious to take over.

Aye. That's why we've gone to the dogs since Laws left.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:43 am

Big Vinny K wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:19 am
Personally I think last nights game was the best by some margin in terms of the quality of play from both teams in this World Cup so far.

Completely agree with this.

That match up deserved at least a semi final or even final.

dougcollins · Post by **dougcollins** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:53 am

We lost that game in the first half with all that pedestrian ambling around at the back and midfield. If Southgate had have been positive from the start we could have easily beaten a very average France defence.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:00 am

KRBFC wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 2:07 am
You're saying it like England have been serious trophy contenders for decades and were winning trophies pre Southgate.

No I'm not. We've won nowt for 60 years and we'll win nowt whilst this clown is in charge.

Successful World Cup? We beat Wales, Iran and Senegal.

ClaretAndJew · Post by **ClaretAndJew** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:04 am

Since 2006, in a World Cup competition we have beaten:

Tunisia
Panama
Colombia
Sweden
Slovenia
Paraguay
Trinidad
Ecuador
Iran
Wales
Senagal

You put a decent team in front of England and we lose. We are not the hype the media make us out to be.

Sproggy · Post by **Sproggy** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:09 am

dougcollins wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 10:53 am
We lost that game in the first half with all that pedestrian ambling around at the back and midfield. If Southgate had have been positive from the start we could have easily beaten a very average France defence.

It's purpose-free, risk averse, super slow safe-ball.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:11 am

Sproggy wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:09 am
It's purpose-free, risk averse, super slow safe-ball.

With all due respect that reads very much like you didn’t watch the game last night.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:14 am

ClaretAndJew wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:04 am
We are not the hype the media make us out to be.

We have been one of the best, if not the best, side in this World Cup so far. I’ve watched pretty much every single game and there’s barely been another side as impressive, consistently.

We were even better than the current World Champions last night. We’ve made a semi final and final in the two previous tournaments. We are a very good side that unfortunately faced the most difficult opponent possible in the Quarters and were a penalty kick away from taking it into ET.

CrosspoolClarets · Post by **CrosspoolClarets** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:22 am

Reflecting on this I haven’t changed my immediate thoughts.

We played well but weren’t ruthless at the crucial times, were a little safe in our tactics (e.g. telling Foden to hug the touchline rather than roam inside, which Foden referred to last week) and we were denied by officials with an obvious bias against England (probably subconscious). Those are big tides to battle against. The decision for Southgate is whether he is the man to overcome those deficiencies, I saw progression from him but ultimately not enough.

I read an article by Keith Hackett in the Telegraph today and he was on about the head of referees Collina using England as video training examples of fouls etc. He said he did the same once against Man Utd and Ferguson rightly panned him because it biased refs against United, which Hackett realised so he switched to international video training instead. This is what I mean by subconscious bias.

I don’t buy as deeply into the conspiracy theory about Qatar owning PSG so wanting a Mbappe vs Neymar or Messi final. I am sure that is true but not sure it affected what happened on the pitch in our game (less so the Messi one when he should have been carded which was scandalous if you are Dutch).

LeadBelly · Post by **LeadBelly** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 11:34 am

We beat (fairly comfortably) the teams ranked 20th, 19th and 18th (Iran, Wales, Senegal) in FIFA rankings.
+
A non-dominant draw (and failure to score) v 16th ranked team (USA)
Had a decent game (but failed to score from open play and lost) to 4th ranked team.

Not a bad failure but not that much to write home about either.

Pickles · Post by **Pickles** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm

This is excellent from the brilliant Jonathan Liew's superb article in the Guardian.

"England rose to the occasion. France had no need, for the occasion was already France-sized. England were brave. France had no need to be brave, as their default level of courage was already sufficient. England believed. France knew."

KRBFC · Post by **KRBFC** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:42 pm

Pickles wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm
This is excellent from the brilliant Jonathan Liew's superb article in the Guardian.

"England rose to the occasion. France had no need, for the occasion was already France-sized. England were brave. France had no need to be brave, as their default level of courage was already sufficient. England believed. France knew."

That's absolutely spot on, that's what these big teams have, who have won big tournaments. I don't know where this England arrogant entitlement comes from, with the expectations of some you would think we've been winning international tournaments prior to Southgate. It's all about progression, we were a laughing stock prior to Southgate, struggling to qualify, not qualifying and losing knockout games to Iceland.

Buxtonclaret · Post by **Buxtonclaret** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:57 pm

Pickles wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm
This is excellent from the brilliant Jonathan Liew's superb article in the Guardian.

"England rose to the occasion. France had no need, for the occasion was already France-sized. England were brave. France had no need to be brave, as their default level of courage was already sufficient. England believed. France knew."

Read that too.
And thought the same.

Milltown1882 · Post by **Milltown1882** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 1:58 pm

We were the better side. Awful referee, close chances, missed penalty. Deschamps even said they were lucky. This is the best squad depth we’ve had in a generation we’ll win something in the next few years.

Big Vinny K · Post by **Big Vinny K** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:24 pm

Pickles wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 12:12 pm
This is excellent from the brilliant Jonathan Liew's superb article in the Guardian.

"England rose to the occasion. France had no need, for the occasion was already France-sized. England were brave. France had no need to be brave, as their default level of courage was already sufficient. England believed. France knew."

I haven’t read all of the article so may be missing some context and I agree that it is a cleverly worded few lines.
But the wordsmith stuff aside I do not agree at all with the sentiment.
How can you say a team who conceded so many chances against a team who also missed a penalty (and should have had another penalty)…….and your first goal should have been disallowed “knew” they were going to win ?
It’s absolute rubbish to say this. It’s a fine line between arrogance / confidence and bullish-it and stuff like this is definitely in the latter.

taio · Post by **taio** » Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:26 pm

Big Vinny K wrote: ↑
Sun Dec 11, 2022 3:24 pm
I haven’t read all of the article so may be missing some context and I agree that it is a cleverly worded few lines.
But the wordsmith stuff aside I do not agree at all with the sentiment.
How can you say a team who conceded so many chances against a team who also missed a penalty (and should have had another penalty)…….and your first goal should have been disallowed “knew” they were going to win ?
It’s absolute rubbish to say this. It’s a fine line between arrogance / confidence and bullish-it and stuff like this is definitely in the latter.

Agree - it's just meaningless waffle after the event.