Southgate to stay

[Dyched]

I’d like to see where people rank Southgate vs Pochettino. People would be happier with the latter, seems to get decent jobs and linked to them also. Yet has won nothing.

Saying he’s poor is just daft. He’s done better than proven winners have with a far less experienced squad available.

[Aclaret]

Remind me, has he actually won anything? I don’t mean nearly won I mean won?

Honest question, I don’t know!

This country quite likes gallant losers and nearly men.

[Swizzlestick]

Genuinely intrigued to hear some viable alternatives. I’d probably be happy with Pochettino but after that, who is there? Dyche??

[Rileybobs]

I appreciate that.

But to win a tournament we will have to beat some of the top nations in tournament football.

He doesn't have any history of success of this.

Southgate, or should I say England in general, don’t have a history of success against the ‘top nations’. But under Southgate we have beaten both Croatia and Germany in a major tournament. And beaten Spain in the Nations League. We also hammered the African champions this year.

[Shaggy]

Of course Shitegate isn’t going to leave.
No one’s going to take him on and pay him the ridiculous amount of money he’s on relative to his actual ability.

Bit like Dyche. Soon as He’s left England he will be a forgotten man.

Thankfully

[Rowls]

And club management and international management are totally different areas.

Capello and Eriksson both had great careers as club managers prior to taking the England job yet both flopped far more than Southgate has.

Even Hodgson who enjoyed an excellent career in club management couldn't repeat that trait when he took over England.

Ideally I'd have Howe or Potter as England boss but in reality neither of them are going to leave big club jobs, so the field for a successor to Gareth is thin due to those who are available and will genuinely be interested in the gig.

Oh I seeeeeeeeee.

There are club managers and there are international managers, and the two things are completely different.

How very cunning then, of the FA to appoint an utterly shocking and abysmal club manager in the knowledge that the reason he was failing so spectacularly in his profession was because he was actually an international manager in disguise.

[ashtonlongsider]

Certainly the WC was another missed opportunity, but I firmly believe we're getting closer. At this moment I can't think of any other manager whose in a position to replace Southgate.

[Greenmile]

Great decision for him, bad decision for England. He's not a winner, he's a nearly man. Failed when it comes to the crunch in the last 3 tournaments. We need to stop rewarding failure.

We’ll have to dig up and install the corpse of Sir Alf Ramsay, then, as he’s the only England manager who has achieved anything other than “failure”.

[RVclaret]

Oh I seeeeeeeeee.

There are club managers and there are international managers, and the two things are completely different.

How very cunning then, for the FA to appoint an utterly shocking and abysmal club manager in the knowledge that the reason he was failing so spectacularly in his profession was because he was actually an international manager in disguise.

Interestingly, the two highest rated ‘club managers’ in the World Cup were Hansi Flick and Luis Enrique, both title winners at Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Yet both Germany and Spain got knocked out before England did, with squads that are just as talented as England.

[Dyched]

Winning tournaments that come around every 2 years is very tough. You need to beat 2/3 top opposition to do it. Especially tough if you’re 5/6 favourite.

Take club football, the UCL. Manchester City are one of the favourites every year. They have to beat 3/4 top opposition to do it. Have arguably the best manager in the game, yet have failed to do it having had 4/5 attempts with Guardiola in charge.

Guardiola has a better squad available than Southgate, has had more attempts than Southgate, yet hasn’t come any closer than Southgate has to winning the UCL vs a major international tournement

[NottsClaret]

Genuinely intrigued to hear some viable alternatives. I’d probably be happy with Pochettino but after that, who is there? Dyche??

Why not? Last time we picked someone who'd taken over a mid-table Prem club, played some awful football, relegated them and then been sacked in the Championship. Then he went a few years where nobody would give him a job. Then got the England u21 job through FA connections, but failed there too. Then as he was already on the payroll, got the top job after Big Sam's greedy escapades.

I mean, we can debate his merits in the England job, but we've set a very low bar for credentials required to get it in the first place.

[expoultryboy]

His man management is excellent , his team selection has improved , his game management and use of substitutions is awful . I also wish he would keep his nose out of all blm , rainbow etc and concentrate on the football . Leave all the peripherals / politics to the overpaid FA executive.

[Rowls]

Interestingly, the two highest rated ‘club managers’ in the World Cup were Hansi Flick and Luis Enrique, both title winners at Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Yet both Germany and Spain got knocked out before England did, with squads that are just as talented as England.

Yup. It's interesting, as you say.

These tournaments aren't like national leagues. You've only got a handful of games in which to shine. In a national season, things even out.

In a tournament of a couple of games, you're far more beholden to chance, circumstance and luck.

Look at the record of Bobby Robson. In '86 we only went out by being cheated in the quarters. In '90 we went out on penalties in the semi having out-played the team who deservedly won the tournament.

However, in between those two World Cups we had England's worst ever performance at a tournament - EUFA '88 where we lost all three games.

So is Bobby Robson a bad manager? Well, his record at club level suggests he was a top quality manager of the highest calibre. That's the best way we have of measuring a manager's ability.

If we apply this yardstick to Southgate he comes out somewhere on a par with Chris Waddle and that's no exaggeration.

[Swizzlestick]

What’s the point then? May as well keep Southgate. At least we’d see some slightly better football. If we want to improve, there has to be a better alternative, and it’s slim pickings frankly.

[taio]

Interestingly, the two highest rated ‘club managers’ in the World Cup were Hansi Flick and Luis Enrique, both title winners at Barcelona and Bayern Munich. Yet both Germany and Spain got knocked out before England did, with squads that are just as talented as England.

Highest rated by who?

[Rowls]

There's another key difference between international management and club management. In club management you're in charge of bringing a squad together.

You get (at most clubs) at very least a good say in who you try and buy.

At international level you just get to pick the best players which is a far easier thing to do.

[Rowls]

What’s the point then? May as well keep Southgate. At least we’d see some slightly better football. If we want to improve, there has to be a better alternative, and it’s slim pickings frankly.

The point is that all you can is try your best to push the odds slightly in your favour. You don't get to control all the variables. You might pick a proven, great manager and things might not go your way. You could equally pick an utter chump and (if you've got a good bunch of players) they might play fantastically.

The only variable you can decide at international level is "Who is going to be our manager?" and if you use the only sensible criteria of asking the question "Is this person a capable manager?" then Southgate wouldn't even have been allowed to take part as a stand-in for dress rehearsals at interview stage.

Here's the story of his inept final full season at Middlesbrough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%8 ... .C._season

[AlargeClaret]

Never quite get the negativity towards Southgate . Just because he’s a “ bit of a wet lettuce “ shouldn’t detract from his fantastic record as Eng manager . Yes , we had a very easy group this time and also a “ home euros “ again with a pretty easy ride and we did get beat 3 times in 2018 , again a favourable draw coming up short against real quality .

However GS has installed a real “tournament positivity” and moulded a young talented squad into a model of consistency , something which many before him were unable to do .

[Swizzlestick]

EDIT - double post

[Swizzlestick]

The point is that all you can is try your best to push the odds slightly in your favour. You don't get to control all the variables. You might pick a proven, great manager and things might not go your way. You could equally pick an utter chump and (if you've got a good bunch of players) they might play fantastically.

The only variable you can decide at international level is "Who is going to be our manager?" and if you use the only sensible criteria of asking the question "Is this person a capable manager?" then Southgate wouldn't even have been allowed to take part as a stand-in for dress rehearsals at interview stage.

Here's the story of his inept final full season at Middlesbrough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%8 ... .C._season

Who would you like to see as manager?

I don’t particularly care about his season at Boro. He’s done a reasonable job with England, he’s liked by the players, he’s improved the image of the team, and he’s delivered some decent tournament performances.

[bobinho]

Never in doubt...

Not a snowballs chance in hell he was ever gonna call it a day.

Shame that the current generation of England players will go down in history as massive under achievers just because the manager wouldn't/couldn't let them express themselves.

Euro final? Well whoopee ****. 1-0 up against a team that couldn't qualify for the world cup, only to lose it out of fear is NOT something to be looked at as a success. Bloody shameful that game was lost. As long as people see that game and accept it as a success, we have NO chance going forward.

Got some news for you Southgate backers - it's NOT coming home. It will NEVER come home as long as GS is anywhere near these players.

[Spijed]

He’s improved the image of the team.

Regardless of whether he's a good manager or not, what relevance has that to England doing well at a major tournament?

[Swizzlestick]

Regardless of whether he's a good manager or not, what relevance has that to England doing well at a major tournament?

What? I mention his tournament performance in that very post you edited. Bizarre. I’m looking at difference facets of his management.

[Spijed]

What? I mention his tournament performance in that very post you edited. Bizarre. I’m looking at difference facets of his management.

But I'm just asking why would the image of the team have any importance at all?

[Swizzlestick]

But I'm just asking why would the image of the team have any importance at all?

Because there were previous issues re the England team especially in the golden generation years being quite distant and cast as privileged rich boys while this one is more personable and seems to have a better all round rapport with each other and with fans. They also speak very impressively on social issues. A lot of this is down to Southgate imo. I’ve certainly enjoyed supporting the team more recently, and not just because of the results. If you don’t consider these type of things important, that’s on you.

[Rileybobs]

The point is that all you can is try your best to push the odds slightly in your favour. You don't get to control all the variables. You might pick a proven, great manager and things might not go your way. You could equally pick an utter chump and (if you've got a good bunch of players) they might play fantastically.

The only variable you can decide at international level is "Who is going to be our manager?" and if you use the only sensible criteria of asking the question "Is this person a capable manager?" then Southgate wouldn't even have been allowed to take part as a stand-in for dress rehearsals at interview stage.

Here's the story of his inept final full season at Middlesbrough:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008%E2%8 ... .C._season

Southgate was sacked from Middlesbrough 13 (THIRTEEN) years ago. Since then he has become just the third England manager to make a World Cup semi final, and the only England manager to ever make a European Championship final. It’s quite desperate to go back to a career failure 13 years ago to discredit his subsequent achievements. What were you doing 13 years ago?

[Rowls]

Who would you like to see as manager?

I don’t particularly care about his season at Boro. He’s done a reasonable job with England, he’s liked by the players, he’s improved the image of the team, and he’s delivered some decent tournament performances.

Literally anybody who has proven themselves to be a decent manager.

The bar is so low after Southgate that just telling the players to pick themselves might be a better option.

This is the managerial record of Southgate at Middlesbrough:

P 151
W 45
D 43
L 63
Win % 29.8

That was with an established Premier League club who had a competitive budget. For comparison, here's Sean Dyche's Burnley record:

P 425
W 149
D 118
L158
Win % 35.1

Burnley were not an established Premier League side when Dyche was appointed. We were actually favourites for relegation - to the third tier. We never had a competitive budget.

[taio]

I believe one of the things that has happened under Southgate is that club cliques and superiority complexes have gone.

[Rowls]

Southgate was sacked from Middlesbrough 13 (THIRTEEN) years ago. Since then he has become just the third England manager to make a World Cup semi final, and the only England manager to ever make a European Championship final. It’s quite desperate to go back to a career failure 13 years ago to discredit his subsequent achievements. What were you doing 13 years ago?

You're judging his managerial ability on what? What other metric than "performance as a manager" can you use?

Do you have some kind kind of "holistic" approach to employing managers whereby you infer managerial ability through use of a diving rod?

[Rowls]

I believe one of the things that has happened under Southgate is that club cliques and superiority complexes have gone.

He's clearly done a good job in nurturing a good squad spirit and mentality. Yes, that does show through.

[Rileybobs]

Never in doubt...

Not a snowballs chance in hell he was ever gonna call it a day.

Shame that the current generation of England players will go down in history as massive under achievers just because the manager wouldn't/couldn't let them express themselves.

Euro final? Well whoopee ****. 1-0 up against a team that couldn't qualify for the world cup, only to lose it out of fear is NOT something to be looked at as a success. Bloody shameful that game was lost. As long as people see that game and accept it as a success, we have NO chance going forward.

Got some news for you Southgate backers - it's NOT coming home. It will NEVER come home as long as GS is anywhere near these players.

It will probably never ‘come home’ with any manager near these players. It’s only ever once ‘come home’ so why people should expect anything else is misplaced optimism or stupidity.

And if you think Southgate didn’t let these players express themselves in this World Cup then I don’t think you watched.

[Rileybobs]

You're judging his managerial ability on what? What other metric than "performance as a manager" can you use?

Do you have some kind kind of "holistic" approach to employing managers whereby you infer managerial ability through use of a diving rod?

I certainly don’t use a diving (sic) rod.

I would suggest that when considering whether Southgate should retain his job as England manager, his record with England should be taken 100% into account, and his record with Middlesbrough should be taken 0% into account. I think you agree with this, but won’t, because it doesn’t fit your narrative.

[Fretters]

Right decision for me as nobody else has ever been able to replicate that 'club feel' within the England camp and that's just as important as tactical nous IMO. We saw it ourselves under Coyle.

I think he now needs to bring somebody in with that nous. I wouldn't look too far away and get Wiegman involved, I'm sure she could manage the women and be a coach for Southgate at the same time.

[Rowls]

"I think you're only expressing opinions that fit your narrative!"

My point is simple: The manager is the only variable we can control. To stand the best chance of winning, we ought to at very least appoint somebody with a good record of achieving success as opposed to somebody with a record of utter failure.

Southgate only got the job because he was in the building. It's a nonsensical way to appoint a manager and we should look to get in somebody with a proven track record.

The relationship between a football manager and the football team is a little bit like the relationship between a horse and the jockey. It's the horse that does 95% of the work and the jockey adds 5%. The football team does 95% of the work. Southgate adds a potential 5%.

Except that if you look at his managerial record, his 5% isn't worth much. If you look at how badly he fared, it's pretty much 0%. Or maybe even -5%.

Everybody accepts there are very fine margins between success and failure in football at this level. That's doesn't mean you stick with a duff manager. It should mean you look to bring in somebody who can maximize that potential 5%.

[Rowls]

And even though it was 13 (THIRTEEN) years ago since his utter failure at Middlesbrough, his England side demonstrate the exact same faults:

Getting caught fannying around at the back
Poor marking
Lack of defensive co-ordination
Flat football with no apparent direct
Struggling to score goals, especially from open play

These aren't minor problems for a football team - these are fundamental issues that are going to seriously restrict your ability to get results.

[Rileybobs]

"I think you're only expressing opinions that fit your narrative!"

My point is simple: The manager is the only variable we can control. To stand the best chance of winning, we ought to at very least appoint somebody with a good record of achieving success as opposed to somebody with a record of utter failure.

Southgate only got the job because he was in the building. It's a nonsensical way to appoint a manager and we should look to get in somebody with a proven track record.

The relationship between a football manager and the football team is a little bit like the relationship between a horse and the jockey. It's the horse that does 95% of the work and the jockey adds 5%. The football team does 95% of the work. Southgate adds a potential 5%.

Except that if you look at his managerial record, his 5% isn't worth much. If you look at how badly he fared, it's pretty much 0%. Or maybe even -5%.

Everybody accepts there are very fine margins between success and failure in football at this level. That's doesn't mean you stick with a duff manager. It should mean you look to bring in somebody who can maximize that potential 5%.

I think where our opinions differ is that you think that Southgate’s time with England is an ‘utter failure’, which is quite frankly absolutely ridiculous, whereas myself, most sports journalists, pundits, professionals within the game and the FA don’t.

[Rileybobs]

And even though it was 13 (THIRTEEN) years ago since his utter failure at Middlesbrough, his England side demonstrate the exact same faults:

Getting caught fannying around at the back
Poor marking
Lack of defensive co-ordination
Flat football with no apparent direct
Struggling to score goals, especially from open play

These aren't minor problems for a football team - these are fundamental issues that are going to seriously restrict your ability to get results.

We scored 13 goals in this World Cup and almost all from open play. You’re having a mare.

[Rowls]

I think where our opinions differ is that you think that Southgate’s time with England is an ‘utter failure’, which is quite frankly absolutely ridiculous, whereas myself, most sports journalists, pundits, professionals within the game and the FA don’t.

Well kudos to you.

I heartily recommend forming your own opinions once in a while though and having the courage to stick by them. It's liberating.

[Rileybobs]

Well kudos to you.

I heartily recommend forming your own opinions once in a while though and having the courage to stick by them. It's liberating.

In what way do I not form my own opinions?

[Shaggy]

It’s all very well scoring lots of goals against minnows like Iran.

GS record against top sides is pretty poor. That’s what marks him out to be a poor manager.

And this woke Bullshit he pushes out like taking the knees etc all needs to go. Virtue signalling if the highest order. Worse than a politician jumping on any bandwagon they can find for a bit of relevance

[Swizzlestick]

And this woke Bullshit he pushes out like taking the knees etc all needs to go. Virtue signalling if the highest order. Worse than a politician jumping on any bandwagon they can find for a bit of relevance

HOUSE

[Greenmile]

Never quite get the negativity towards Southgate . Just because he’s a “ bit of a wet lettuce “ shouldn’t detract from his fantastic record as Eng manager . Yes , we had a very easy group this time and also a “ home euros “ again with a pretty easy ride and we did get beat 3 times in 2018 , again a favourable draw coming up short against real quality .

However GS has installed a real “tournament positivity” and moulded a young talented squad into a model of consistency , something which many before him were unable to do .

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Some folk will never forgive Southgate for speaking out on various social issues, particularly when he supported his team in their stance against racism.

The identity of most of his most vocal critics, on here and elsewhere, does very little to disprove my theory.

[Rowls]

The reason this debate goes on and on is because nobody can prove that Southgate is a bad manager who happens to have a good squad. Neither can anybody prove he's a great manager who is doing good work and achieving more than if anybody else (or even nobody) were at the helm.

The exceptional poor performance of his predecessor's doesn't anything. Our final position in tournaments with Southgate in charge cannot prove anything.

However, the idea that criticism of Southgate is political send this thread through the looking glass.

[Rileybobs]

The reason this debate goes on and on is because nobody can prove that Southgate is a bad manager who happens to have a good squad. Neither can anybody prove he's a great manager who is doing good work and achieving more than if anybody else (or even nobody) were at the helm.

The exceptional poor performance of his predecessor's doesn't anything. Our final position in tournaments with Southgate in charge cannot prove anything.

However, the idea that criticism of Southgate is political send this thread through the looking glass.

But his record with Middlesbrough 13 years ago does prove something. Righto.

[Rowls]

But his record with Middlesbrough 13 years ago does prove something. Righto.

Managing regularly in a competitive environment is the best way we have of judging a manager's ability, yes.

How about this: We agree that regardless of whether or not he's done a good job, which is subjective, we agree that he shouldn't really have been appointed in the first place as his prior record wasn't good enough for a potential England managerial candidate?

[Rileybobs]

Managing regularly in a competitive environment is the best way we have of judging a manager's ability, yes.

How about this: We agree that regardless of whether or not he's done a good job, which is subjective, we agree that he shouldn't really have been appointed in the first place as his prior record wasn't good enough for a potential England managerial candidate?

I would say that despite probably holding that view at the time of his appointment, his subsequent achievements with England demonstrate that with hindsight it was a good appointment.

[Rowls]

And I think we'd have done better with if Kermit the Forg had been appointed.

[warksclaret]

I have nothing against Southgate -for the FA he does not have the baggage associated with a number of the last English country managers in the last 20 or so years, so they are going to back him.He also possesses some real strengths outside of coaching, enabling him to manage his players and the media. We are however not going to win anything under him as he is not wise enough at International level to find a way of winning

I am watching Argentina v France -neither have a better starting 11 than us. I am convinced Loris, Dembele, Giroud, Varan and one or two others of France would not start for England. Neither would McCallister, Dia Maria,Otamendi or Martinez of Argentina. I am not criticising these players as they are big players for their country, however I believe we had the strongest squad at the world cup and our goal should be to win titles .

[AfloatinClaret]

I'm in favour. There's always appeared to be far more required of the England Manager than simply selecting and coaching the best group of players he can find. The UK press are from day one looking for, indeed at times engineering stories with the reader's/viewers' preference being for scandalous ones about the England Manager and while. I'm not saying that is right, from the FA's point of view Gareth Southgate ticks the safe box for that too

[beddie]

The defence particularly is ordinary when compared to world standards. IMO

The defence may be ordinary but he can only work with what’s available.