Baffling

[Elizabeth]

Beyond ridiculous as far as I can see.
Trafford for Muric? Not sure he's ready.

Bill , you like to pull me up so I’m returning the favour. It’s not beyond ridiculous that Brownhill is not getting a look in.
We don’t know what the situation is with him contract wise and it’s only right that new signings are given a chance.

While I‘ve been on Brownhill’s side when criticised in the past about his PL worth I’m not going to support criticism of him not being in the team at the moment.

[boatshed bill]

There’s a bit of context missing here.

I don’t necessarily disagree with some of the selection discussions, but I’d argue that we’re missing our best two centre backs and we’ve only played against teams who both look certs to finish in the top 6-8.

It’s an old trope that you get punished for every mistake in the top level, but that’s not true. We’ll face a lot of sides this season who are far worse than City & Villa.

So focusing on games we haven't played somehow makes things better?

[Pickles]

I’m only echoing what some have already said but within about 20 mins of our game against Huddersfield you had a good idea of what VK wanted to do, what the roles for the players were broadly going to be and there was a clear blueprint.

I’m 180 mins in now and I’m still not sure what our game plan is. We don’t seem to want to control the possession and our creative players are not being brought into the game nearly enough.

The most shocking thing to me however was the passiveness. Every second ball seemed to drop for Villa and there wasn’t the industry in chasing down that we’ve become used to, save for a spell between our goal and their 3rd. We looked like a well beaten team for far too much of that game, one that was just going to accept defeat timidly. It’s all well and good starting all our nice shiny new players but there looks to be very little steel or character in there bar this new aggressive streak we’ve seen in Foster lately.

Oh, and I’ll say it again: Muric is about as integral to the way we (were) playing as any other of our stand out player from last season. He needs bringing back sharpish.

100% agree with every word of this. These are my thoughts exactly. Last season, I was very patient and after every one of those dodgy early games - Luton, Blackpool etc - I said it'll come together. Because there was plenty to see on the pitch which indicated a style, a philosophy and it was obvious it would gel.

As BigGaz says here, 180 plus minutes in and I genuinely have no idea how Kompany wants to play. And there are too many players on the pitch who seem to not know either. On top of that, we don't look fit enough. We look slow and small.

Yes, it's Man City and yes it's Villa. But it isn't the losing, it's the way we've lost.

[lucs86]

A couple of seasons ago Fulham were roundly mocked for walking the Championship, spending £100M to ditch the entire team that brought them up, and going down.

I trust we'll stay up fairly comfortably, but I question starting the season with a team that's 7/11 new players, when we could be fielding a competitive team, with cohesion, that walked the Championship. The selection today seemed like we were writing off a home game in the name of developing a few players.

In my mind it makes more sense to blood a few new players at a time, using the bench for the new guys, ease them in. We've not got the luxury of playing crap teams week on week any more.

[Cirrus_Minor]

I would have expected experienced players, such as Redmond, Brownhill, Gudmundsson, Rodriguez, Cork and Roberts to be the players starting until the new players become integrated. Only Roberts with a lot of players new tother club and the Premier league.

[Elizabeth]

Redmond came on and looked like he hadn’t played for a year. That disappointed me

[agreenwood]

So focusing on games we haven't played somehow makes things better?

No, but making judgements based on performances against two sides that will likely prove to be amongst the strongest in the league isn’t necessarily a good barometer.

[RVclaret]

100% agree with every word of this. These are my thoughts exactly. Last season, I was very patient and after every one of those dodgy early games - Luton, Blackpool etc - I said it'll come together. Because there was plenty to see on the pitch which indicated a style, a philosophy and it was obvious it would gel.

As BigGaz says here, 180 plus minutes in and I genuinely have no idea how Kompany wants to play. And there are too many players on the pitch who seem to not know either. On top of that, we don't look fit enough. We look slow and small.

Yes, it's Man City and yes it's Villa. But it isn't the losing, it's the way we've lost.

I don’t really get the comment on having no idea on how Kompany wants to play. Do you mean you just haven’t understood the tactics employed against City and Villa?

For me both games have been incredibly clear.

[Pickles]

I don’t really get the comment on having no idea on how Kompany wants to play. Do you mean you just haven’t understood the tactics employed against City and Villa?

For me both games have been incredibly clear.

Understood the tactics, as much as someone who doesn't work in football can I suppose. What I don't see is how it's going to garner us points. I'm very positive about Kompany - I had us finishing 7th or 8th!! - but that today was just plain wrong. It wasn't loose passing, goalkeeping errors or concentration which lost us the points - as it was in those early games last season. It was a system, a shape from the off which gave us very little chance of getting something from the game. (Yes, I know it's Villa. They're very good.)

[boatshed bill]

No, but making judgements based on performances against two sides that will likely prove to be amongst the strongest in the league isn’t necessarily a good barometer.

TBH I have only seen highlights.
But anyone thinking that only the better sides in the PL could have scored those 3 goals is being at the very least optimistic.

[RVclaret]

Understood the tactics, as much as someone who doesn't work in football can I suppose. What I don't see is how it's going to garner us points. I'm very positive about Kompany - I had us finishing 7th or 8th!! - but that today was just plain wrong. It wasn't loose passing, goalkeeping errors or concentration which lost us the points - as it was in those early games last season. It was a system, a shape from the off which gave us very little chance of getting something from the game. (Yes, I know it's Villa. They're very good.)

Against City the plan was to stifle their midfield play and man to man press them into errors (both worked but we conceded a seriously sloppy opener and 3rd). This thread by a footy coach explained that one better:

https://x.com/coachjpilling/status/1690 ... 22976?s=46

Agree today on getting it wrong but it’s worth highlighting that system and shape was very similar to what we played most of last season. After the City game I remember posters here wanting that shape/system back and didn’t like the 5-2-3 ‘experiment’.

This passing network shows the shape today.. Cullen central with Berge and Amoundi either side as 8s/10s. Then in the press Zeki pushed up into more of a 4-2-4. If anything Cullen’s average position was too high which is why it felt there was a big gap in the middle. Add that to Benson’s poor off the ball work and AAD’s naive defending… look at Digne for them!

[ksrclaret]

This 433 which goes into a 325 in possession is just not appropriate anymore. We're Burnley with some of the most inexperienced players in the league, and we think we can set up against Villa like a Man City or an Arsenal with one CM and a full back joining him.

We HAVE to return to the 4231 we used first half of last season when we had Cork and Cullen in there together. Look at Villa today with Luiz and Kamara in front of their back four. Look at Brighton, Fulham, Wolves, etc etc... a double pivot is absolutely essential IMO.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Bizarre that Brownhill is not getting a look in!

I know il get slated for saying it. But the premier league has moved on so far from players like Brownhill, he’s knowhere near the quality required.

He’s a good grafter and probably will play a role for us but he against the top teams he’s just not good enough.

[Elizabeth]

This 433 which goes into a 325 in possession is just not appropriate anymore. We HAVE to return to the 4231

I was just saying this to the grandchildren tonight

[Newcastleclaret93]

This 433 which goes into a 325 in possession is just not appropriate anymore. We're Burnley with some of the most inexperienced players in the league, and we think we can set up against Villa like a Man City or an Arsenal with one CM and a full back joining him.

We HAVE to return to the 4231 we used first half of last season when we had Cork and Cullen in there together. Look at Villa today with Luiz and Kamara in front of their back four. Look at Brighton, Fulham, Wolves, etc etc... a double pivot is absolutely essential IMO.

I agree but I honestly believe we only have one player that is naturally suited the CDM “pivot” role.

We also have to understand that this is the heighest level Cullen has ever played at, it may take him 6-7 games to adjust to this quality of opposition

[ksrclaret]

I agree but I honestly believe we only have one player that is naturally suited the CDM “pivot” role.

We also have to understand that this is the heighest level Cullen has ever played at, it may take him 6-7 games to adjust to this quality of opposition

Well Cork and Cullen are suited to it, but Cork isn't the answer. We need to get into the market and recruit another CDM, preferably an experienced head if possible.

I agree it might take Cullen time, but if he's overwhelmed on his own in there it doesn't matter how used to the league he becomes.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Well Cork and Cullen are suited to it, but Cork isn't the answer. We need to get into the market and recruit another CDM, preferably an experienced head if possible.

I agree it might take Cullen time, but if he's overwhelmed on his own in there it doesn't matter how used to the league he becomes.

Fair comments

The concerning thing for me is that we don’t even seem to be in the market for another CDM

[boatshed bill]

I know il get slated for saying it. But the premier league has moved on so far from players like Brownhill, he’s knowhere near the quality required.

So you obviously doubt that he is, or has ever been, a transfer target for other PL clubs?

[GetIntoEm]

Certainly the PL fickle fans coming out of the woodwork now ain't they

[Newcastleclaret93]

So you obviously doubt that he is, or has ever been, a transfer target for other PL clubs?

Yep

I don’t any other premier league club is remotely interested.

Everyone keeps saying West Ham. Look at the players they are buying they are a signing players a few levels up from him.

[ksrclaret]

Fair comments

The concerning thing for me is that we don’t even seem to be in the market for another CDM

Well we were linked with Vranckx and Souza, and we were close to Lokonga who would definitely be a candidate for one of the double pivot roles (he did this very well alongside Cullen at Anderlect).

I just hope we fix it in these last few days. Surely we've got to.

[boatshed bill]

Yep

I don’t any other premier league club is remotely interested.

Everyone keeps saying West Ham. Look at the players they are buying they are a signing players a few levels up from him.

You are not wrong there.
But I still reckon he should get in our squad on a regular basis, and play a part.

[Rick_Muller]

Not baffling for me. Work in progress, impacted today by injury to our first choice CB Beyer which enforced a change. I can clearly see where we are trying to inprove. Delcroix at left back was a stop gap, I genuinely think we’re looking to bring someone in for that position.

There were times today when we played one pass too many, but overall, the signs are good for me. Foster is beginning to show what he’s about, Koleosho is a live wire much like Benson was at first last season. Amdouni is showing promise, but I agree it’s not entirely clear to us what his objective is on the pitch.

It will come together for us, but I hope sooner rather than later though. But I’ll be patient. I trust in what Vinny is doing.

[RVclaret]

Well we were linked with Vranckx and Souza, and we were close to Lokonga who would definitely be a candidate for one of the double pivot roles (he did this very well alongside Cullen at Anderlect).

I just hope we fix it in these last few days. Surely we've got to.

Just as we discuss this Forest are advancing on a deal for Wilfried Ndidi from Leicester..

[ksrclaret]

Just as we discuss this Forest are advancing on a deal for Wilfried Ndidi from Leicester..

Yeah that's the sort we want. A big defensive sitter would make a world of difference.

[CrosspoolClarets]

I find the frustration a bit frustrating but I accept the tactics are tricky to dissect because they are so complex and thus hard to have faith in.

The key for me was the second half, and we were well on top and had them rocking, the save to stop it being 2-2 then the mistake from Ameen that cost us the game, getting turned and not properly fouling the player and taking a yellow.

We saw the intended Roberts in midfield second half, allowing Berge to barge forwards where he seems much more effective. We had similar shots, more possession and equal goals in the second half (none of us know if Villa had another gear if needed).

That 19 was causing chaos, but he cost €55m, has 9 caps for France, was at PSG before Leverkusen (off topic but I presume Nathan is his replacement). Sometimes we have to accept we are up against top players. I would say though that after a tricky first 30 minutes Delcroix handled him really, really well and grew into the game superbly.

Let’s give it time. Vinny deserves that.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Well we were linked with Vranckx and Souza, and we were close to Lokonga who would definitely be a candidate for one of the double pivot roles (he did this very well alongside Cullen at Anderlect).

I just hope we fix it in these last few days. Surely we've got to.

VK isn’t daft

I think he’s recognised the weakness, the only issue is getting a top quality one over the line (I think we might have slightly underestimated how challenging that might be).

If I was a betting man I could see us making a late push for someone like Heynan from Genk or Madsen from Waterloo.

[Dark Cloud]

The one thing SD knew and was acutely aware of was that PL survival is all about defence and being extremely difficult to score against, even if achieving that meant you were dubbed a boring old dinosaur. VK has been a world class defender in his time and has actually won the PL, so crikey he must know this. Yet we're so easy to score against!!! We're actually good in possession and we do look like we could hurt teams, but blimey, we have to be far, far tighter at the back or it's rock bottom by Christmas!

[Spijed]

The one thing SD knew and was acutely aware of was that PL survival is all about defence and being extremely difficult to score against, even if achieving that meant you were dubbed a boring old dinosaur. VK has been a world class defender in his time and has actually won the PL, so crikey he must know this. Yet we're so easy to score against!!! We're actually good in possession and we do look like we could hurt teams, but blimey, we have to be far, far tighter at the back or it's rock bottom by Christmas!

It does look like VK is going to defend with a high line so only time will tell as to whether it works or not.

[burnleymik]

I think we will get better defensively, but I do wonder what the score is with Ekdal and Taylor, both would have added experience to that backline today, which was really struggling upto half time.

I thought Brun Larsen looks a composed player, picked out a couple of decent switches to JBG and knew when to beat a man, I think I would prefer him starting over Koleosho and letting Koleosho come on when the other team are tired, similar to Benson really.

I like the Amdouni/Foster partnership and I think with experienced wingers we might be able to get a bit more out of both.

We looked like a team that hasn't played together much and that's understandable given how many new faces we had. I trust VK and I think he may think he this was a mistake in hindsight. Be interesting to see what he does Wednesday night.

[Muzamil.shah]

the most baffling thing is the dropping of Muric, the first decision VK has made that I genuinely question his wisdom on

Seems to me that VK has to play Trafford because of his price tag.
I mean who pays £19m for a second keeper.
Shame Muric has been dropped in the pecking order because of this.
I think Muric is a class above Trafford.

[Spijed]

I think we will get better defensively, but I do wonder what the score is with Ekdal and Taylor, both would have added experience to that backline today, which was really struggling upto half time.

Isn't Ekdal injured?

[burnleymik]

Isn't Ekdal injured?

Not sure, I haven't seen anything. I saw the Beyer injury news, but didn't see anything about Ekdal or Taylor. Would make much more sense if he was, hope it's only minor.

[claretspice]

Against City the plan was to stifle their midfield play and man to man press them into errors (both worked but we conceded a seriously sloppy opener and 3rd). This thread by a footy coach explained that one better:

https://x.com/coachjpilling/status/1690 ... 22976?s=46

Agree today on getting it wrong but it’s worth highlighting that system and shape was very similar to what we played most of last season. After the City game I remember posters here wanting that shape/system back and didn’t like the 5-2-3 ‘experiment’.

This passing network shows the shape today.. Cullen central with Berge and Amoundi either side as 8s/10s. Then in the press Zeki pushed up into more of a 4-2-4. If anything Cullen’s average position was too high which is why it felt there was a big gap in the middle. Add that to Benson’s poor off the ball work and AAD’s naive defending… look at Digne for them!

Firstly - I have a lot of sympathy with the opening post and others, like Luppy, who raise similar concerns. I think we've underplayed the importance of continuity. I'm particularly unclear why Brownhill hasn't been properly used yet, and why Muric has been replaced with an apparently inferior keeper.

I also don't understand why we are trying to replicate what we did last season in terms of system despite the balance of quality and power bring the other way round to last season. The team needs a double pivot, and a left back. None of this involves throwing out the template that got us here, but to presume we don't need to adapt it to consolidate is crazy. Bringing in vast quantities of wide players is fine but first and foremost you need to ensure you are hard to play through. Deploying Berge - who came to prominence as a 6 in Belgium and has gradually plateaued as he's moved towards an 8 role- as a 10 whilst a right back stepped into midfield was a nonsense today. It undermined the team and made us less than the sum of our parts.

[Pickles]

This passing network shows the shape today.. Cullen central with Berge and Amoundi either side as 8s/10s. Then in the press Zeki pushed up into more of a 4-2-4. If anything Cullen’s average position was too high which is why it felt there was a big gap in the middle. Add that to Benson’s poor off the ball work and AAD’s naive defending… look at Digne for them!

Thanks for taking the time to provide the link and the diagram, it's interesting. But all the above just proves how Kompany got it very wrong. Cullen, Berge and Amdouni as a three is not an improvement on Cullen, Cork and Brownhill. Better players, very possibly, but there's only Cullen of today's three who is comfortable defensively and even he is better when we have the ball. To think we can play with Amdouni, Berge AND three attackers ahead of them against sides like Villa is bizarrely naive. And that's before any mention of Benson and Koleosho doing next to nothing defensively.

I just don't understand how at any point today, with those players on the pitch, in that shape, we were ever going to get something from it. They ran right through us.

It was quite really poor from minute one, on the pitch and off it.

[Ampth7]

We need to give it time! Lots of new signings and let’s not forget we lost our loanees from last year, many of whom were superb!

This is the reality of this league and again today we came up against a very good side at least 2-3 years ahead in their development. Let’s not kid ourselves in believing we’re not going to be one of 6/7 teams scrapping for survival this season.

[claretspice]

Thanks for taking the time to provide the link and the diagram, it's interesting. But all the above just proves how Kompany got it very wrong. Cullen, Berge and Amdouni as a three is not an improvement on Cullen, Cork and Brownhill. Better players, very possibly, but there's only Cullen of today's three who is comfortable defensively and even he is better when we have the ball. To think we can play with Amdouni, Berge AND three attackers ahead of them against sides like Villa is bizarrely naive. And that's before any mention of Benson and Koleosho doing next to nothing defensively.

I just don't understand how at any point today, with those players on the pitch, in that shape, we were ever going to get something from it. They ran right through us.

It was quite really poor from minute one, on the pitch and off it.

Agree that Amdouni was a problem today. Hes a tough player on initial evidence to fit in - not a 9, not a wide player, and not an 8. And I'm not sure we're good enough to enjoy the luxury of an out and out 10.

[CoolClaret]

This 433 which goes into a 325 in possession is just not appropriate anymore. We're Burnley with some of the most inexperienced players in the league, and we think we can set up against Villa like a Man City or an Arsenal with one CM and a full back joining him.

We HAVE to return to the 4231 we used first half of last season when we had Cork and Cullen in there together. Look at Villa today with Luiz and Kamara in front of their back four. Look at Brighton, Fulham, Wolves, etc etc... a double pivot is absolutely essential IMO.

Totally agree KSR.

We should be looking to simply outwork teams and keep it (relatively) simple. Press like mad but have a solid structure so that we aren’t absolutely over run when we lose the ball as we were when we lost it today.

[Spijed]

Thanks for taking the time to provide the link and the diagram, it's interesting. But all the above just proves how Kompany got it very wrong. Cullen, Berge and Amdouni as a three is not an improvement on Cullen, Cork and Brownhill. Better players, very possibly, but there's only Cullen of today's three who is comfortable defensively and even he is better when we have the ball. To think we can play with Amdouni, Berge AND three attackers ahead of them against sides like Villa is bizarrely naive. And that's before any mention of Benson and Koleosho doing next to nothing defensively.

I just don't understand how at any point today, with those players on the pitch, in that shape, we were ever going to get something from it. They ran right through us.

It was quite really poor from minute one, on the pitch and off it.

I just hope that VK, and others at the club, aren't getting dragged into the hype of walking the Championship and believing the same methods will work easily against players that are a million times better than teams like Preston and Rovers have.

[Pickles]

Agree that Amdouni was a problem today. Hes a tough player on initial evidence to fit in - not a 9, not a wide player, and not an 8. And I'm not sure we're good enough to enjoy the luxury of an out and out 10.

I thought he sounded an odd signing when I started to read a bit about him. In the two games he seems to not have had an allotted area on the pitch to exploit, or pathways to make connections with players. Is he linking with Foster? Is he in the gap between Foster and the winger? It's all quite congested and confused.

He's a bit inbetweeny and as you say, I'm not sure we're good enough for that.

[TheOriginalLongsider]

It’s just 2 games everyone. It’s going to be more difficult this season but there was some good stuff in both matches.

[Murger]

We are far too open. The midfield is non-existent and you could drive a bus through the gaps in our back line.

[Burnleyareback2]

We’re still in preseason until October. It’s trial and error for a few weeks, VK doesn’t know his best 11 yet.

But I would add that his best 11 needs more of the veterans starting. JBG changes the game from the wing today and Cork would of been a huge upgrade on Chris de burge

[IanMcL]

The team that finished chanpions deserve a chance.

[StayingDown4Ever]

Yep

I don’t any other premier league club is remotely interested.

Everyone keeps saying West Ham. Look at the players they are buying they are a signing players a few levels up from him.

Whilst I agree he’s not top flight quality, Leeds were VERY interested not too long ago and they were in the top division.

[123EasyasBFC]

If kompany doesn’t fancy cork or brownhill as to having the quality to play next to Cullen in the prem then we simply have to sign another defensive minded midfielder before the window closes or we are really going to struggle, it’s clear after 2 games that berge is a more forward midfielder suited to a 3, continuing to play Cullen and Berge then our midfield with get picked apart and over run

[CrosspoolClarets]

Not necessarily disagreeing with much of it but regarding Berge playing further forward with Roberts next to Cullen that is when we started to dominate, and though Emery refused to admit he was worried he did admit to being severely tested. Their third goal wasn’t so much tactical deficiencies it was a mistake.

As soon as Berge went off our chances dried up, until Jay’s late salvo. Berge was showing a lot of drive, whereas one or two of the newer ones aren’t used to this level hence taking time to work out how to be effective.

[Clive 1960]

The team that finished chanpions deserve a chance.

Exactly , that is what i was told when i played you want to play then you have to work hard and be prepared when your chance comes a long the way and take it and make sure that you keep it, not just given to you on a plate .

[Ric_C]

Berge looks like a waste of money at the moment. He's not a CDM and we have better options further forward. A lot of money for a squad player. Is he any better than Brownhill?

[elwaclaret]

This may be a case of throwing on the new signings to make them understand what level Kompany expects of them and why on the training ground, and an element of ‘giving things a go.’ What worries me most has who has stepped up to take over Ash’s role in the changing room, it is clear he was the lynchpin connecting the players as mate, organiser/disorganised and old wise head to the kids just arrived? Fans underestimate how much difference a character like Bash makes to a team even without playing.