That s exactly why I hate the prem.

[Tall Paul]

Yes and if they have their way they will remedy that at the end of this season. Just out of interest…. Happy with the decisions last night?

Obviously not happy with them.

[CoolClaret]

We keep being told that they’ll average out….

Since our time in the Prem and the debut of VAR in the 19/20 season we have easily been on the wrong end of pretty much every controversial decision.

Stemming from the shenanigans seemingly every game against Arsenal to that Leeds away game, where not only did they get an incredibly soft Pen, we were denied a penalty/not given a Goal after Meslier double flying kneed Ben Mee in the back and got a free kick given to him for it

Can anyone genuinely come up with a VAR incident that we’ve been given unless it was literally impossible to not rule for Burnley?

Because at the minute it seems like we’ve the
flipped the proverbial VAR coin 15 times in a row or so and lost every toss…

The only decision that really sticks out in my mind that we really got away with funnily enough was Jon Flanagan at Old Trafford where we drew - the Heaton heroic game. I thought he should have been a gonner but that was before VAR came and soiled the league

[Tall Paul]

We keep being told that they’ll average out….

Since our time in the Prem and the debut of VAR in the 19/20 season we have easily been on the wrong end of pretty much every controversial decision.

Stemming from the shenanigans seemingly every game against Arsenal to that Leeds away game, where not only did they get an incredibly soft Pen, we were denied a penalty/not given a Goal after Meslier double flying kneed Ben Mee in the back and got a free kick given to him for it

Can anyone genuinely come up with a VAR incident that we’ve been given unless it was literally impossible to not rule for Burnley?

Erik Pieters red card and penalty handball against Arsenal, overturned by VAR

Robbie Brady red card against Man Utd, overturned by VAR

Ben Mee scissor tackle on Aston Villa striker (Wesley?), could've been a red but wasn't

[Tall Paul]

Another one - Xhaka red card for pushing Westwood, given by VAR

[Bordeauxclaret]

We got that pen against Bournemouth after they’d scored.

[KRBFC]

No it does not. And that means you cannot give it. It’s not clear and obvious.

I don’t know what planet you are living on, Berges arm muscle literally moves as the ball hits his arm.

It’s never deliberate though and imo is way too high to be handball.

[Tall Paul]

Ashley Barnes flying kick against Leeds could easily have been a red card but wasn't given

[Newcastleclaret93]

I don’t know what planet you are living on, Berges arm muscle literally moves as the ball hits his arm.

It’s never deliberate though and imo is way too high to be handball.

The new handball rule states it’s a handball from the armpit down. On that basis it’s not too high.

However clearly not deliberate imo

[CoolClaret]

Erik Pieters red card and penalty handball against Arsenal, overturned by VAR

Robbie Brady red card against Man Utd, overturned by VAR

Ben Mee scissor tackle on Aston Villa striker (Wesley?), could've been a red but wasn't

I think the Pieters one was pretty obviously not handball seen as it hit his shoulder - I’ll give you that one because they could have easily kept it.

The Brady one was only over turned because Shaw had committed a foul and gone studs up on Guddy in the lead up to the goal (in doing so receiving a yellow) so I’d say that was impossible to keep.

Think the Mee/Wes was just unfortunate all round, not so sure anyone could rule that a red.

On Xhaka - he put his hands around Westwoods neck no? Pretty impossible to not give

Point being we’ve definitely been on the wrong end of Var more than I would have thought to be normal variance.

[KRBFC]

The new handball rule states it’s a handball from the armpit down. On that basis it’s not too high.

However clearly not deliberate imo

I always thought the shirt line was the line to follow, if it’s the armpit then it’s handball.

It’s a tight call and I hate VAR but these conspiracy theories are just wild and imagine arguing wether it hit Berges arm or not, it’s clear as day it brushes his arm.

[Colburn_Claret]

We keep being told that they’ll average out….

Since our time in the Prem and the debut of VAR in the 19/20 season we have easily been on the wrong end of pretty much every controversial decision.

Stemming from the shenanigans seemingly every game against Arsenal to that Leeds away game, where not only did they get an incredibly soft Pen, we were denied a penalty/not given a Goal after Meslier double flying kneed Ben Mee in the back and got a free kick given to him for it

Can anyone genuinely come up with a VAR incident that we’ve been given unless it was literally impossible to not rule for Burnley?

Because at the minute it seems like we’ve the
flipped the proverbial VAR coin 15 times in a row or so and lost every toss…

The only decision that really sticks out in my mind that we really got away with funnily enough was Jon Flanagan at Old Trafford where we drew - the Heaton heroic game. I thought he should have been a gonner but that was before VAR came and soiled the league

You forgot Krul punching Vyds in the head, I'm sure others will add to the list

[CoolClaret]

Doesn’t all the confusion also prove the point about moneymen/tinkerers ruining the game?

An odd rule revision can happen every once in a while but it’s seemingly every other season.

In Rugby Union when they trialed rule changes (known as ELVs) across all levels of the game in 2008 ish(I was playing sort of U18 level for Blackburn and school) and even then we were all properly instructed on what the law changes were, refs explained prior to the game, during the game and then the following season they implemented some of them after collecting data/feedback and ditched some of them.

We’re at a state with officiating where non of the pundits, managers, fans nor refs can agree on instances that should be pretty much unanimous.

The fact that there’s so much left to ‘interpretation’ and literally hyper analysing stills really says it all - the level of officiating is horrific. It really shouldn’t be this hard - how can they continue to get it so wrong?

[Jakubclaret]

I always thought the shirt line was the line to follow, if it’s the armpit then it’s handball.

It’s a tight call and I hate VAR but these conspiracy theories are just wild and imagine arguing wether it hit Berges arm or not, it’s clear as day it brushes his arm.

Precisely, they aren't interested whether he intended to brush his arm against the ball or not all they are interested in is that he did. Deliberate or not makes no difference the fact that it was non intentional, accidental makes the decision harsh but handball is handball regardless of the circumstances.

[dsr]

Precisely, they aren't interested whether he intended to brush his arm against the ball or not all they are interested in is that he did. Deliberate or not makes no difference the fact that it was non intentional, accidental makes the decision harsh but handball is handball regardless of the circumstances.

Presumably you would say that Forest should have had a penalty for the Cullen handball as well?

Do you ever watch other matches? There are squillions of examples of the ball hitting a hand accidentally and handball not given, usually accompanied by more-or-less-informed talk from the commentators about being hit from close range and about arms in a natural position. Have you never seen any of that?

[Jakubclaret]

Presumably you would say that Forest should have had a penalty for the Cullen handball as well?

Do you ever watch other matches? There are squillions of examples of the ball hitting a hand accidentally and handball not given, usually accompanied by more-or-less-informed talk from the commentators about being hit from close range and about arms in a natural position. Have you never seen any of that?

I'm talking about as a general rule if you handle the ball (goalkeepers exempt) you are on offer for an infringement, yes of course examples are there when incidents are overlooked or not even seen but when you handle the ball unintentionally or not effectively you are asking the question, put it this way had foster not scored do you think the handball incident would even be looked at I don't, play would have resumed with a goal kick assuming foster missed the target without a forest last touch.

[dougcollins]

Absolute fallacy to say things 'even themselves out'.

They just don't.

[Jakubclaret]

Absolute fallacy to say things 'even themselves out'.

They just don't.

I can't say with certainty & you can't, unless 1 of us is capable of accurately looking into the future in a prophet like sense.

[pureclaret]

What i dont get is if the 2 goals were susspision of hadnball both were not rulled out , and then if VAR did its job holding and pulling back a player is a foul then yes red card right but should we not have got a penalty and Yates at least a yellow for pulling back

[dougcollins]

I can't say with certainty & you can't, unless 1 of us is capable of accurately looking into the future in a prophet like sense.

I don't need to be a prophet to tell you that some will profit more than us.

[Jakubclaret]

I don't need to be a prophet to tell you that some will profit more than us.

The likes of man city will, every lower placed team this season so far will be able to moan about a decision/s not going their way, it's not a unique situation regarding bad luck in isolation.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Decisions don’t even out even though a regression to the mean suggests there will always be the odd decision going our way as well. But we aren’t talking about VAR interventions, we are talking about incorrect ones. Logic suggests that is more likely in our games given the donkeys we get as refs compared to the big clubs (England for example has totally the wrong mindset for VAR duties and that strutting clown on the pitch has a mindset where he is unlikely to overrule it and look bad in front of a packed stadium).

But, there are other consequences too. The Foster one was a further negative, if he hadn’t felt that seething injustice he would unlikely have reacted. But equally easily it could have had a galvanising effect in that match or in future ones - we almost won the game afterwards, and that may have been due to them being fired up,

So it is impossible to look back and judge definitively where we should be in the table - we just have to lump it and move on to United.

[Hipper]

I don’t know what planet you are living on, Berges arm muscle literally moves as the ball hits his arm.

It’s never deliberate though and imo is way too high to be handball.

It is deliberate. Why did he put his arms out? It wasn't part of his running motion - who runs with both arms outstretched?

The reason he put his arms out is because McKenna was closing in and the ball was dropping into McKenna's path and away from Berge. By deliberately putting his arm out, contrary to normal running motion, he does actually touch the ball with his arm (looks like in the bicep region) as you say. For those that don't believe this, if you look closely you can see the ball change direction from coming down nearer McKenna to landing nearer Berge.

Much as I was disappointed with the goal being disallowed, this is exactly why VAR was brought in and it was correctly used. The ref and his assistant understandably didn't see it at the time but VAR allowed the correct decision to be made.

Frankly I don't care what managers and former referees say about this. I've made my own judgement from what I saw on TV. I could never have done this by being at the match so I understand the frustrations of those that were there. In the 1970s in a home game against Huddersfield we had a goal disallowed for offside that I think would have been an equaliser and we eventually lost. We were fuming after the game because there was clearly a defender on the line but on Sunday the highlights were on The Big Match or similar and it was shown that the goalkeeper had run out so that only one defender was behind our attacker. The law is of course to be offside you have to be behind 'the second last opponent' and we usually assume that the goalkeeper is one of those opponents. We just didn't fully understand the law or forgot about the goalkeeper.

[dsr]

I'm talking about as a general rule if you handle the ball (goalkeepers exempt) you are on offer for an infringement, yes of course examples are there when incidents are overlooked or not even seen but when you handle the ball unintentionally or not effectively you are asking the question, put it this way had foster not scored do you think the handball incident would even be looked at I don't, play would have resumed with a goal kick assuming foster missed the target without a forest last touch.

Obviously the handball wouldn't have been given without VAR because it was such a tiny touch that it would be invisible in real time. This wasn't a Kurt Nogan at Bristol incident, where he pushed the ball forward with his hand and we could all see it behind the goal (but didn't care because we scored). In this case Forest fans were behind the goal and never saw a thing - it was impossible to see at full speed. (Note that the ref never even looked at the replay in full speed. Just one of many major flaws in VAR.)

IMO Berge was chesting it down and it happened to glance off his arm, in such a trivial way that it made no difference. There have been cases before where the defender has his arm in an unnatural position and it has brushed his sleeve or the tip of his finger and made no difference to what happened next; in general, this has been given no penalty. Perhaps the referees ought to come to some sort of conclusion as to whether the tiniest, most inconsequential of touches can be construed as deliberate handball?

[Newcastleclaret93]

I always thought the shirt line was the line to follow, if it’s the armpit then it’s handball.

It’s a tight call and I hate VAR but these conspiracy theories are just wild and imagine arguing wether it hit Berges arm or not, it’s clear as day it brushes his arm.

Yes it changed this summer from Shirt line to bottom of armpit

[CrosspoolClarets]

Newcastle is correct. This is the rule.

https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-go ... goalkeeper

But the rule also says not every contact with the arm is an offence and when a goal is scored it has to be immediately after touching the arm if it is accidental. In this case it has to be deliberate including making it unnaturally bigger.

Berge’s arm could have been tight by his side and the ball bounced directly off his arm and it would have been allowed using that logic. England and Jones can only believe it was unnatural, which is why those who have played the game at a good level are saying that is nonsense, he was simply trying to control the ball on his pec / shoulder area and hold off the defender at the same time. All these experts are right in my view that it was an appalling decision, brilliant play which set up a great goal (as was the Forest one), the reason we paid money to attend the game.

[RickyBobby]

VAR is just another layer of protection for the premier league to help ensure that the correct result has the best chance possible of happening.
That is all it is.

[THEWELLERNUT70]

I'm yet to see, hear or read in the aftermath of the Berge incident one single person who has earned a shilling from professional football say that that goal should have been chalked off,it says it all and I prefer to take their word over a couple of amateur Sherlock Holmes types on this forum

[dsr]

I'm yet to see, hear or read in the aftermath of the Berge incident one single person who has earned a shilling from professional football say that that goal should have been chalked off, I take their word over a couple of amateur Sherlock Holmes types on this forum

Agreed. It's our rotten luck that the only two professional footballing people who believed it to be handball, were jointly refereeing the game!

[Jakubclaret]

Obviously the handball wouldn't have been given without VAR because it was such a tiny touch that it would be invisible in real time. This wasn't a Kurt Nogan at Bristol incident, where he pushed the ball forward with his hand and we could all see it behind the goal (but didn't care because we scored). In this case Forest fans were behind the goal and never saw a thing - it was impossible to see at full speed. (Note that the ref never even looked at the replay in full speed. Just one of many major flaws in VAR.)

IMO Berge was chesting it down and it happened to glance off his arm, in such a trivial way that it made no difference. There have been cases before where the defender has his arm in an unnatural position and it has brushed his sleeve or the tip of his finger and made no difference to what happened next; in general, this has been given no penalty. Perhaps the referees ought to come to some sort of conclusion as to whether the tiniest, most inconsequential of touches can be construed as deliberate handball?

To be honest I'd prefer it if the officials didn't look at incidents in "full speed" they can't even get things rights in slow motion never mind speeding things up & making things more difficult, for me I keep hearing the word deliberate popping up regarding berge, for me that's a red herring & whether it's deliberate or accidental should matter little once the goal has been chalked off as harsh as it sounds, It's like a broken record saying handball is handball, what infuriated me more than not letting fosters stand is cutting forest the slack for the exact same thing.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I'm yet to see, hear or read in the aftermath of the Berge incident one single person who has earned a shilling from professional football say that that goal should have been chalked off,it says it all and I prefer to take their word over a couple of amateur Sherlock Holmes types on this forum

Spot on, there are always exceptions to anything in life, this incident being no different. It helps though when those who think the decision was correct have a history of being wrong on most things.

[vinrogue]

Last night I had a conversation with some footballing friends, "Are you telling me that if Haaland who often has a tussle with defenders elbows a defender deliberately he will be sent off?" If you think the answer is yes he will be sent off as VAR will see it and go that is just like that Burnley player.....he must also be sent off you are deluded.... or if you answer Don't be silly no defender should be doing that to Haaland a world class striker and so the defender deserves a bit of a dig and broken ribs......no offence here my lord then you my friend at last understand VAR UTC

[daveisaclaret]

Last night I had a conversation with some footballing friends, "Are you telling me that if Haaland who often has a tussle with defenders elbows a defender deliberately he will be sent off?"

The correct answer to this question is that he might be sent off but it's less likely than Lyle Foster getting sent off for the same thing.

[SouthLondonexile]

I really do understand the sentiment of the original post.
It seems that when there’s a hint of an infringement Burnley will get penalised, whereas other teams are given the benefit of the doubt.
The referee on Monday night was so bad , as a club we should make a formal complaint based on his incompetence and worse inconsistency.

[Jakubclaret]

Absolute fallacy to say things 'even themselves out'.

They just don't.

Did tonight & it will again.

[wilks_bfc]

Did tonight & it will again.

It did, but why was the ref asked to go over to the screen to review the decision?

Why didn’t/couldn’t the VAR ref see that it was obviously offside?

[Jakubclaret]

It did, but why was the ref asked to go over to the screen to review the decision?

Why didn’t/couldn’t the VAR ref see that it was obviously offside?

I’m not bothered about all that, 2 goals have been disallowed 1 going in our favour & 1 going against, we can argue the toss about what went on & what didn’t & what should have happened & what shouldn’t have happened, the plain fact is 2 incidents have evened themselves out & over the course of the season a pattern will probably emerge with the decisions roughly balanced.

[dsr]

It did, but why was the ref asked to go over to the screen to review the decision?

Why didn’t/couldn’t the VAR ref see that it was obviously offside?

Because it was a matter of opinion, not of fact. Most offsides are simply a matter of fact - he was in an offside position and he interfered with play. This was opinion - no doubt that he was in an offside position, but the question was, in the ref's opinion, was he interfering?

[wilks_bfc]

I’m not bothered about all that, 2 goals have been disallowed 1 going in our favour & 1 going against, we can argue the toss about what went on & what didn’t & what should have happened & what shouldn’t have happened, the plain fact is 2 incidents have evened themselves out & over the course of the season a pattern will probably emerge with the decisions roughly balanced.

But tonight’s decision hasn’t evened out the decision from Monday

Mondays decision cost us 2 points
Tonight’s decision didn’t change the final outcome, we still would have got 0 points even if it had been allowed to stand

[dsr]

I’m not bothered about all that, 2 goals have been disallowed 1 going in our favour & 1 going against, we can argue the toss about what went on & what didn’t & what should have happened & what shouldn’t have happened, the plain fact is 2 incidents have evened themselves out & over the course of the season a pattern will probably emerge with the decisions roughly balanced.

That's not how "evening out" works. If in one game the ref fails to give a penalty in the first half when Joe Bloggs is flattened by Fred Smith, but in the second half he does give a penalty when Joe Bloggs is flattened by Fred Smith, he hasn't evened things out. Where it would even out is if we get a goal given that shouldn't be, or where the opposition get one disallowed that should have been given.

[Jakubclaret]

That's not how "evening out" works. If in one game the ref fails to give a penalty in the first half when Joe Bloggs is flattened by Fred Smith, but in the second half he does give a penalty when Joe Bloggs is flattened by Fred Smith, he hasn't evened things out. Where it would even out is if we get a goal given that shouldn't be, or where the opposition get one disallowed that should have been given.

The same amount of consistency will be mixed in with inconsistency, you are looking too deep into detail over singular incidents, the point not in a literal sense unfortunately been proven & to further demonstrate as the season progresses I'll keep coming back when the good & bad decisions keep happening in a 50/50 ratio.

[Hipper]

It least last night's decision will put paid to the idiotic conspiracy theories that big clubs get all the decisions. Won't it?