Getting promoted too early

[KRBFC]

It’s chalk and cheese from the first Dyche promo. We’d been in the PL for 6 straight years before last year, we’re a completely different club now.


Claiming that it’s two years in the making is obscene - we had a ready made squad good to go that needed small additions; not wholesale changes.

We lost all of our PL players in one summer, you’re making it sound like we kept together the nucleus of a PL squad.

We had a ready made squad? Some of our best players were loaned and didn’t return. Benson and Ekdal have been injured all season. Cullen and Roberts haven’t stepped up. Where’s the ready made squad?

It doesn’t matter what you say, it’s going to take time to develop these players and this team. You can throw your toys out of the pram after every defeat all season, it won’t change that. I see the long term potential, I think we will go down and come back stronger and better prepared to survive.

[Squazo]

I keep hearing from fans/read on here that we got promoted too early.

Why do people think this?

I can't think of a single reason.

no we didn! unfortunately vk has ripped the heart of the team out from last season and i think we’re weaker now than last season

[spt_claret]

We lost all of our PL players in one summer, you’re making it sound like we kept together the nucleus of a PL squad.

Cork faded but played a lot last season.
Jay faded badly but was a useful player the first half of the season.
Barnes started poor but revitalised himself.
JBG was very useful in multiple roles.
Brownhill was captain.
Taylor was in and out and out of position but was there and is back now.
Roberts was poor at the start but post-WC was our primary right back, with a year in the Prem prior.
Westwood would likely have featured in part were it not for his injury.

We gutted the vast majority of our experience and top quality no doubt but we didn't lose all of our PL players by any stretch of the imagination.

[boatshed bill]

We lost all of our PL players in one summer, you’re making it sound like we kept together the nucleus of a PL squad.

We had a ready made squad? Some of our best players were loaned and didn’t return. Benson and Ekdal have been injured all season. Cullen and Roberts haven’t stepped up. Where’s the ready made squad?

It doesn’t matter what you say, it’s going to take time to develop these players and this team. You can throw your toys out of the pram after every defeat all season, it won’t change that. I see the long term potential, I think we will go down and come back stronger and better prepared to survive.

I agree with all of that except the last sentence.
I still believe we'll stay up.

[CoolClaret]

We lost all of our PL players in one summer, you’re making it sound like we kept together the nucleus of a PL squad.

We had a ready made squad? Some of our best players were loaned and didn’t return. Benson and Ekdal have been injured all season. Cullen and Roberts haven’t stepped up. Where’s the ready made squad?

It doesn’t matter what you say, it’s going to take time to develop these players and this team. You can throw your toys out of the pram after every defeat all season, it won’t change that. I see the long term potential, I think we will go down and come back stronger and better prepared to survive.

1) We sold them for very decent money that funded our promotion - giving us by far the largest budget in the Champ which we did use very well

2) Three loan players, two of which we decided to shop elsewhere because we didn’t see the same value, spent more than the purported costs and look worse for it.

3) Been done to death but we will once again have to finance a relegation to go again. It’s spinning out wheels at best

4) ‘Throwing toys out of the pram’ - not at all… if we look competitive and like we can get a result then great. Being miles off it is just calling a spade a spade

[kenyon6923]

the gulf is that big now who is ready ? yeah some have done well and pushed on like Brighton, Wolves and Brentford but there's plenty like Fulham who are surviving just because the 3 that get promoted every year are "so far behind" they can just plod along and survive. If Bournemouth and Forest survive this season because the 3 promoted get relegated its not because there so much better than last season its just because the championship/prem gulf has given them a free pass to survive - they basically had no teams to aim for to survive because the relegated 3 had no change of getting 38/40 points each.
Do you think if Leicester, Leeds and Southampton get promoted they will be 11th/12th and 13th the season after in the prem ? alternatively if Ipswich, Preston and West Brom get promoted do you think any would get 38/40 points ? its the widening gulf rather than ready/not ready IMO

[Vegas Claret]

1) We sold them for very decent money that funded our promotion - giving us by far the largest budget in the Champ which we did use very well
agree

2) Three loan players, two of which we decided to shop elsewhere because we didn’t see the same value, spent more than the purported costs and look worse for it.
You don't question why not a single PL team went in for the England U21 captain for only 15 million ? Your answer is there for him
Tella, probably should have signed him
Maatsen didn't want to come

3) Been done to death but we will once again have to finance a relegation to go again. It’s spinning out wheels at best
You've no idea who backs us or how much money they have

4) ‘Throwing toys out of the pram’ - not at all… if we look competitive and like we can get a result then great. Being miles off it is just calling a spade a spade
As long as you pick them up after, can't have this place looking a mess

[CoolClaret]

Can’t properly reply to your comment Vegas but on the 2nd point -

You could point to that for all of our signings, it doesn’t really mean anything.

Tella is the biggest loss for me though - top goal scorer is always going to be a huge miss, we were poor when he wasn’t in the side last season!

Forth point - yep if they batte and get stuck in I’ll back them all the way

[Vegas Claret]

Can’t properly reply to your comment Vegas but on the 2nd point -

You could point to that for all of our signings, it doesn’t really mean anything.

Tella is the biggest loss for me though - top goal scorer is always going to be a huge miss, we were poor when he wasn’t in the side last season!

Forth point - yep if they batte and get stuck in I’ll back them all the way

bigger mistake for me was keeping Jay and not Barnes. We are where we are now though and I still believe long term we will be better far better than we are showing now. I only expected a relegation battle for us given our window, I've made the point on here as early as July that we were making the same mistakes Southampton made but without the quality of JWP in our team. I knew it would be hard for us BUT I genuinely didn't expect us to have been so poor (I think this is one of the big reasons that has caused the massive disconnect for lots of people with this team), it's been staggering.

[alwaysaclaret]

I agree with all of that except the last sentence.
I still believe we'll stay up.

There is still time to salvage the season, I believe there are player's within the squad to do that although it will be tough at this stage, we need to go on quite a run, but definitely not with this goalkeeper at this moment in time unfortunately, unless common sense prevails and vinny admits he's mistake, it's curtains I'm afraid.

[bumba]

Well that’s my point, if some of these players develop into what they’re capable of becoming, 2 years down the line we will be a really exciting side.

If fans can’t even keep their toys in the pram for more than a few games then this attempt to become a good PL side in the future will be dead in the water.

It’s a shame how toxic fans on here have become, we signed one of the worlds brightest young goalkeepers in the summer and our fans on social media and here have absolutely crucified this young kid for what? because of a fee that isn’t his fault. Pathetic really and not at all supportive or helpful in this kid’s development, a young lad who’s trying his absolute best btw

Your missing a massive issue though, if we go down will Amdouni be here 2 years down the line? Will any of the current 'potential' still be here?
Any premier league interest and we'll be selling so to go down and come back stronger is no given, there's no guarantee the manager stays, theres no guarantees any of the squad stays, there's no guarantees we will ever come back up.
The squad next season could be another complete rebuild then IF we got promotion again is it then another rebuild before the premier league?
We could have bought half of the potential and supplemented them with more experience and have been more competitive than we currently are

[Vegas Claret]

Your missing a massive issue though, if we go down will Amdouni be here 2 years down the line? Will any of the current 'potential' still be here?
Any premier league interest and we'll be selling so to go down and come back stronger is no given, there's no guarantee the manager stays, theres no guarantees any of the squad stays, there's no guarantees we will ever come back up.
The squad next season could be another complete rebuild then IF we got promotion again is it then another rebuild before the premier league?
We could have bought half of the potential and supplemented them with more experience and have been more competitive than we currently are

Half a chance Koleosho would get sold if we drop but I would imagine just selling him will cover all relegation costs - he will go for silly money imho

[Casper2]

the gulf is that big now who is ready ? yeah some have done well and pushed on like Brighton, Wolves and Brentford but there's plenty like Fulham who are surviving just because the 3 that get promoted every year are "so far behind" they can just plod along and survive. If Bournemouth and Forest survive this season because the 3 promoted get relegated its not because there so much better than last season its just because the championship/prem gulf has given them a free pass to survive - they basically had no teams to aim for to survive because the relegated 3 had no change of getting 38/40 points each.
Do you think if Leicester, Leeds and Southampton get promoted they will be 11th/12th and 13th the season after in the prem ? alternatively if Ipswich, Preston and West Brom get promoted do you think any would get 38/40 points ? its the widening gulf rather than ready/not ready IMO

Fulham finished 10th last season

[jojomk1]

Yeah agreed he’s a second striker for me as well.

It’s a tough one because it’s a position that isn’t really a ‘thing’ in the modern game.

Alvarez plays that way with Haaland in front

They don't seem to be too bad at it

[Kilson810]

A little bit but I don’t think that will happen, neither do you

No you are correct I don't think it will happen, although unfortunately it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

[KRBFC]

1) We sold them for very decent money that funded our promotion - giving us by far the largest budget in the Champ which we did use very well

2) Three loan players, two of which we decided to shop elsewhere because we didn’t see the same value, spent more than the purported costs and look worse for it.

3) Been done to death but we will once again have to finance a relegation to go again. It’s spinning out wheels at best

4) ‘Throwing toys out of the pram’ - not at all… if we look competitive and like we can get a result then great. Being miles off it is just calling a spade a spade

Well it wasn’t 3 loan players, it was 6. We forked out cash on 2 at the end of the season.

We built a brand new squad last season and spent like £35m in doing so.

Where’s this settled ready to go side? The one VK chose to abandon? Sick of hearing it, it’s not true, VK wanted those loan players back.

1/3 have been injured for the majority, 1/3 were loan players and the rest have proven not up to it.

[KRBFC]

Fulham finished 10th last season

Fulham also went down and came back stronger, another example of a club doing it, thanks for highlighting why we should stick with VK.

[CoolClaret]

Well it wasn’t 3 loan players, it was 6. We forked out cash on 2 at the end of the season.

We built a brand new squad last season and spent like £35m in doing so.

Where’s this settled ready to go side? The one VK chose to abandon? Sick of hearing it, it’s not true, VK wanted those loan players back.

1/3 have been injured for the majority, 1/3 were loan players and the rest have proven not up to it.

Yeah funded with sales of our Prem players - wasn't a full 11 like but was still the most expensive in the Champ by a considerable margin.

Three loan players that we're missing that were key contributors and haven't been adequately replaced.

Which two? Obafemi and? Obafemi was loan to buy he was always coming.

The club could have signed 2/3 of them. The finances were clearly there, with VK/MUD I can only think they thought they had better value elsewhere and it's proved not to be the case.

[boatshed bill]

The club could have signed 2/3 of them. The finances were clearly there, with VK/MUD I can only think they thought they had better value elsewhere and it's proved not to be the case.

You cannot prove that to be the case, you haven't seen Tella or Maatsen in the PL.

[CoolClaret]

Alvarez plays that way with Haaland in front

They don't seem to be too bad at it

Yep - City do and they do it well.. If Amdouni can turn into half the player Alvarez is then we'll have got an absolute player on our hands!

...City also managed to play a 3-2-4-1 formation and win a treble with it due to the ability of their players; they are a complete outlier with their ability

[KRBFC]

Yeah funded with sales of our Prem players - wasn't a full 11 like but was still the most expensive in the Champ by a considerable margin.

Three loan players that we're missing that were key contributors and haven't been adequately replaced.

Which two? Obafemi and? Obafemi was loan to buy he was always coming.

The club could have signed 2/3 of them. The finances were clearly there, with VK/MUD I can only think they thought they had better value elsewhere and it's proved not to be the case.

We had Dervisolgu, Obafemi, Beyer, Maatsen, THB and Tella on loan.

Why are you saying the club could’ve signed Tella, THB and Maatsen? You have no idea if that’s true, you have no idea if VK said “no we can get better value elsewhere”. Did Maatsen not turn us down? Was posting on his instagram account laughing at us…. Who said Tella would chose us over the side top of the Bundesliga atm?

You’re making shite up and using it to beat VK with…

[CoolClaret]

You cannot prove that to be the case, you haven't seen Tella or Maatsen in the PL.

Maatsen is out of the question - we tried, fair enough.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if you take your top scorer out and you don't replace him then you may struggle.

[CoolClaret]

We had Dervisolgu, Obafemi, Beyer, Maatsen, THB and Tella on loan.

Why are you saying the club could’ve signed Tella, THB and Maatsen? You have no idea if that’s true, you have no idea if VK said “no we can get better value elsewhere”. Did Maatsen not turn us down? Was posting on his instagram account laughing at us…. Who said Tella would chose us over the side top of the Bundesliga atm?

You’re making shite up and using it to beat VK with…

Obafemi loan to buy, Dervisoglu barely played.

Never once suggested Maatsen.

Obviously using deductive reasoning as we have spent enough to land THB/Tella - i'm not using this to beat VK solely at all, more the recruitment team - it just happens to be heavily tied to VK.

[boatshed bill]

Maatsen is out of the question - we tried, fair enough.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if you take your top scorer out and you don't replace him then you may struggle.

I've said this before: there is absolutely no evidence to say we didn't try to sign Nathan Tella, equally there is no evidence to show that he wanted to sign for Burnley.

[Casper2]

Fulham also went down and came back stronger, another example of a club doing it, thanks for highlighting why we should stick with VK.

Came back stronger with a different manager, so your point is ?

[Vegas Claret]

Yeah funded with sales of our Prem players - wasn't a full 11 like but was still the most expensive in the Champ by a considerable margin.

did you expect us to play the kids or with traffic cones instead of players ? For the most part we spent exceptionally well last season

[CoolClaret]

I've said this before: there is absolutely no evidence to say we didn't try to sign Nathan Tella, equally there is no evidence to show that he wanted to sign for Burnley.

Think we were low balling a bit but whatever - I think Tella would've come 100%.

Anyway - we haven't replaced that right wing/forward position. It's not just the goals, it's the pace/pressing ability as well.

[CoolClaret]

did you expect us to play the kids or with traffic cones instead of players ? For the most part we spent exceptionally well last season

Not at all - just highlighting that it wasn't this unfancied bunch that had no right in going up like.

[KRBFC]

Maatsen is out of the question - we tried, fair enough.

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out if you take your top scorer out and you don't replace him then you may struggle.

Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to assume we were trying to sign Tella and for whatever reason we didn’t, he landed in Germany. What is that reason?

How do you know VK said “we will find better value elsewhere?”

How do you know Tella would have been a better value buy than Koleosho?

You’re making **** up, there’s no evidence VK didn’t want Tella, no evidence Tella wanted to return and zero evidence Tella would have succeeded in the PL here. Why are we acting like a guy with 1 PL goal was such a sure fire thing?

[Ampth7]

In response to the OP’s question, I do think there is something in the idea that the timing of promotion is a thing and is certainly not easy to get right.

However, if Luton somehow stay up this season, this argument dies a quick death and becomes merely an excuse.

[boatshed bill]

Think we were low balling a bit but whatever - I think Tella would've come 100%.

Anyway - we haven't replaced that right wing/forward position. It's not just the goals, it's the pace/pressing ability as well.

Partly because Benson just isn't capable of staying fit.
Even the most exaggeratedly anti VK posters on here would surely accept that we've not had the best of luck with injuries.

[CoolClaret]

Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to assume we were trying to sign Tella and for whatever reason we didn’t, he landed in Germany. What is that reason?

How do you know VK said “we will find better value elsewhere?”

How do you know Tella would have been a better value buy than Koleosho?

You’re making **** up, there’s no evidence VK didn’t want Tella, no evidence Tella wanted to return and zero evidence Tella would have succeeded in the PL here. Why are we acting like a guy with 1 PL goal was such a sure fire thing?

You strawman/deliberately misrepresent my points - it's impossible to hash out opinions.

I guess we can't comment on anything then because non of us are in the backroom. Nice one.

Also never once mentioned Koleosho who I think is a very sensible punt for the money - absolutely no issues with bringing players in like that for them fees and integrating them into the side - that's smart if anything.

On the rest ->

It's how a player fits in a team/set up as well as their ability, it's hard to quantify but sometimes they're just a good fit. We clearly had something going.

Everyone knows the PL isn't a place you can afford to take 12+ games to get going with a myriad of new signings, practically writing a season off.

We did the hard yards with taking time to gel last season early on, expecting the same to happen with a host of new signings was really daft.

No coincidence that we've looked better this year when we've played a less rotated side.

[fidelcastro]

The decision to stockpile the squad with wide players looks more and more baffling every game.

[KRBFC]

You strawman/deliberately misrepresent my points - it's impossible to hash out opinions.

I guess we can't comment on anything then because non of us are in the backroom. Nice one.

Also never once mentioned Koleosho who I think is a very sensible punt for the money - absolutely no issues with bringing players in like that for them fees and integrating them into the side - that's smart if anything.

On the rest ->

It's how a player fits in a team/set up as well as their ability, it's hard to quantify but sometimes they're just a good fit. We clearly had something going.

Everyone knows the PL isn't a place you can afford to take 12+ games to get going with a myriad of new signings, practically writing a season off.

We did the hard yards with taking time to gel last season early on, expecting the same to happen with a host of new signings was really daft.

No coincidence that we've looked better this year when we've played a less rotated side.

You said we had a settled squad after promotion and have been slagging off VK for breaking it up, yet you’re making up your own facts.

Pretending we could’ve signed Tella and VK chose not to and slagging off VK for it is just unfair and stupid.

[Vegas Claret]

Not at all - just highlighting that it wasn't this unfancied bunch that had no right in going up like.

so you think buying something like 16 players and putting it all together is easy ?

[Vegas Claret]

The decision to stockpile the squad with wide players looks more and more baffling every game.

agree 100%, we've seriously misspent this summer

[fidelcastro]

agree 100%, we've seriously misspent this summer

We certainly knew we were going to be short of strikers.

Did we try to bring one in? Going into a PL campaign with only Foster and Jay Rod was always going to be a massive gamble at best.

[bumba]

Half a chance Koleosho would get sold if we drop but I would imagine just selling him will cover all relegation costs - he will go for silly money imho

If we are relegated I don't think we'd get above £20 million for him. Very much Adama Traore about him at the minute direct lots of pace but no end product.
It's not just about covering finances though it's whether players want to stay, if they've had a season in the premier league and a club comes offering them a wage increase do you think they'd say no and scrap it out in the championship with a wage reduction?

[boatshed bill]

We certainly knew we were going to be short of strikers.

Did we try to bring one in? Going into a PL campaign with only Foster and Jay Rod was always going to be a massive gamble at best.

We'd just got Obafemi up to speed, unfortunately he got injured again on international duty.

[CoolClaret]

so you think buying something like 16 players and putting it all together is easy ?

Never once suggested nor inferred that.

Had a good core bunch that retained and sprinkled it with some flair and astute loans.

Good recipe… Completely lost that blueprint this year, imo

[CoolClaret]

You said we had a settled squad after promotion and have been slagging off VK for breaking it up, yet you’re making up your own facts.

Pretending we could’ve signed Tella and VK chose not to and slagging off VK for it is just unfair and stupid.

Someone’s decided to fill the squad with predominantly left sided wingers/floaty attackers.

[Casper2]

Fulham also went down and came back stronger, another example of a club doing it, thanks for highlighting why we should stick with VK.

Still waiting how you managed to come to your conclusion when Fulham got promoted with a different manager and went on to finish 10th ?

[boatshed bill]

Never once suggested nor inferred that.

Had a good core bunch that retained and sprinkled it with some flair and astute loans.

Good recipe… Completely lost that blueprint this year, imo

It's not so easy to get loans as a PL club, you have to accept that.

[AlargeClaret]

How do you know that financially we seriously need it?
The accounts aren’t out yet for last season

To presume that we “ didn’t seriously need” the Prem money as opposed to 2nd season parachute payments ( 45% as we had a few seasons up there , dropping to 20% if we had a 3rd champ season ) is a touch optimistic . The “ takeover / money “ thread is best for the drilled down finances .

Another season in the champ would have certainly meant belt tightening and also probs still lost our loan crew . While that doesn’t mean necessarily a disaster, the sheer pressure and declining funds could have turned us into another plodding skint ex prem club in the champ.

[KRBFC]

Still waiting how you managed to come to your conclusion when Fulham got promoted with a different manager and went on to finish 10th ?

They had a lot of loans and tried to stay in the PL, they kept together a lot of that squad and came back stronger. Silva took them up then finished 10th.

[KRBFC]

Someone’s decided to fill the squad with predominantly left sided wingers/floaty attackers.

What has that got to do with my point? You’re assuming alot and slagging off VK like your assumptions are factual, whilst having zero evidence to support your assumption.

[CoolClaret]

What has that got to do with my point? You’re assuming alot and slagging off VK like your assumptions are factual, whilst having zero evidence to support your assumption.

Sorry you’re right. The manager has no baring on who we sign (even though we use his frigging analytics company) at all.

[KRBFC]

Sorry you’re right. The manager has no baring on who we sign (even though we use his frigging analytics company) at all.

Now you’re being idiotic on purpose, who said Tella would come here over a top four side in Germany? Who said it was VK who said no to Tella? Maybe Pace said no to Southampton and left VK to find a replacement?

You’re assuming VK said no to Tella and chose an alternative, then using that to slag off VK like it’s a fact.

[Notsosuperstevedavis]

We absolutely DID get promoted to early. The entire squad needing swapping.
1/3rd was going to be sold off
1/3rd was going to be too old
1/3rd was going to be not good enough.

The plan was to replace the players sustainably so we didnt crash and burn.
The first window was 16 players (5 loans)

We intended these players to integrate and grow together towards being prem ready in 24 months time.

Here’s the caveat….

You’d never complain at getting promoted and you do have to take it. But it came with downsides.

Going up and losing the 5 loans potentially made us worse off and in higher division. It also meant the transfer policy was going to have to more aggressive and buy either

Players of a better standard, which we didnt have the money for
Or
Buy more players than intended.

(Im assuming the original plan was 8-10 per calendar year under the original plan, as it happened, we’d only had the 2 summer windows instead of the preferred three



Either way, we were starting from a deficit.

Had the promotion not happened. Some of these players would be getting broke in, in the champ and they’d all be 1 year older wiser and stronger.

Im not going to complain we went up, nor would I complain should we go down. We’re doing the best we can with the cards we’ve been dealt.

But its unequivocally been harder than we intended

[Newcastleclaret93]

We absolutely DID get promoted to early. The entire squad needing swapping.
1/3rd was going to be sold off
1/3rd was going to be too old
1/3rd was going to be not good enough.

The plan was to replace the players sustainably so we didnt crash and burn.
The first window was 16 players (5 loans)

We intended these players to integrate and grow together towards being prem ready in 24 months time.

Here’s the caveat….

You’d never complain at getting promoted and you do have to take it. But it came with downsides.

Going up and losing the 5 loans potentially made us worse off and in higher division. It also meant the transfer policy was going to have to more aggressive and buy either

Players of a better standard, which we didnt have the money for
Or
Buy more players than intended.

(Im assuming the original plan was 8-10 per calendar year under the original plan, as it happened, we’d only had the 2 summer windows instead of the preferred three



Either way, we were starting from a deficit.

Had the promotion not happened. Some of these players would be getting broke in, in the champ and they’d all be 1 year older wiser and stronger.

Im not going to complain we went up, nor would I complain should we go down. We’re doing the best we can with the cards we’ve been dealt.

But its unequivocally been harder than we intended

Hasn’t this already been rebuffed numerous times though?

The documentary made it clear promotion was the target didn’t it