AV we got a thread v Burnley or is this it?

[taio]

Im not biased at all, I try and look at everything objectively regardless of what I want to happen. I've explained why i didnt mention the handball incident a couple of times already but to be a little clearer I was focusing on the VAR decisions and I didnt see that as even questionable and an decision for VAR to make. Therefore the ref missing a handball outside the area wasnt a key decision in my opinion.

Again as said if I watch it back and Foster is clearly through on goal but for the handball I'll accept I was wrong but that not what I saw watching it in real time and with the replays they showed during the game

Your original post said VAR and referee decisions and wasn't just focussing on VAR

[Jimmymaccer]

I dont care what he says, Ramsey kicked his boot which will cause anyone to lose balance when they are running

Really?!

I’d love to see you run for a bus and a gust of wind knock you over…….ffs. Kicks his boot………? ! Touches it more like and certainly not enough for what followed…..despite “thems the rules”..

[FCBurnley]

Im not biased at all, I try and look at everything objectively regardless of what I want to happen. I've explained why i didnt mention the handball incident a couple of times already but to be a little clearer I was focusing on the VAR decisions and I didnt see that as even questionable and an decision for VAR to make. Therefore the ref missing a handball outside the area wasnt a key decision in my opinion.

Again as said if I watch it back and Foster is clearly through on goal but for the handball I'll accept I was wrong but that not what I saw watching it in real time and with the replays they showed during the game

Zzzzzzzz

[Newcastleclaret93]

He’s through on goal if he doesn’t handle it, it’s a red card offense.

Can’t they only give a red card for last man if it’s a foul on the player?

[RicardoMontalban]

He didn’t have to use his bench. He could have moved Amdouni back.

I don’t think Amdouni is at all suited to that role. Regardless of his cock-up, which half the board seem to think shouldn’t have been a pen, it needed someone to at least do the job of keeping the shape and pressing when needed which Ramsey does. I like Amdouni and I think he’ll click sooner rather than later, but I would never stick him at centre mid when we’re down to ten men.

[boatshed bill]

Can’t they only give a red card for last man if it’s a foul on the player?

If the ref doesn't see it (or give it) outside the box then there's no VAR,
Shame it doesn't apply to offsides.

[Devils_Advocate]

Your original post said VAR and referee decisions and wasn't just focussing on VAR

Yes it did and thats why Ive clarified to you what I meant by that (I accept it wasnt clear in my OP) I was talking about the key decisons made by the ref and VAR because as we know what the ref gives on pitch can impact what the VAR decision is.

You forgot to include that I also mentioned key decisions and I think the ref not giving a handball outside the box when we actually got an advantage was not a key decision.

You are now just nitpicking for the sake of it as I've explained my reasons fairly to you and to RVClaret. You can disagree but this last post of yours is just a bit needless and doesnt move the discussion forward at all

[Newcastleclaret93]

If the ref doesn't see it (or give it) outside the box then there's no VAR,
Shame it doesn't apply to offsides.

Yes it’s a weird one, probably falls into the grey area of the rules.

Probably should have been a red but not sure where it sits within the rules in relation to being the last man. I was under the impression the player had to be fouled

[KRBFC]

West Brom defender got sent off for the exact same thing (almost on the halfway line) against us a few years ago on the Turf. We were battered by 10 man WBA and I think we scraped a draw.

[boatshed bill]

Yes it’s a weird one, probably falls into the grey area of the rules.

Probably should have been a red but not sure where it sits within the rules in relation to being the last man. I was under the impression the player had to be fouled

That could well be correct which in itself is stupid, what would happen if a defender jumped and caught a high through ball when he's the last defender?

[Devils_Advocate]

Really?!

I’d love to see you run for a bus and a gust of wind knock you over…….ffs. Kicks his boot………? ! Touches it more like and certainly not enough for what followed…..despite “thems the rules”..

When you run between each foot hitting the ground you have both feet off the ground. If unexpectedly one of your feet (especially if it the one you need to plant on the ground next) gets kicked from underneath it is almost certain to knock you off balance and bring you to the ground.

[SalisburyClaret]

I don’t think Amdouni is at all suited to that role. Regardless of his cock-up, which half the board seem to think shouldn’t have been a pen, it needed someone to at least do the job of keeping the shape and pressing when needed which Ramsey does. I like Amdouni and I think he’ll click sooner rather than later, but I would never stick him at centre mid when we’re down to ten men.

It was an obvious pen unfortunately. Before that he had touched the ball twice. Amdouni frequently bolsters the midfield in any case.
Not sure centre mid is ideal for Ramsey

[taio]

Yes it’s a weird one, probably falls into the grey area of the rules.

Probably should have been a red but not sure where it sits within the rules in relation to being the last man. I was under the impression the player had to be fouled

Why on earth would you think that handball would be out of scope for denying a goal scoring opportunity?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Why on earth would you think that handball would be out of scope for denying a goal scoring opportunity?

I don’t think it necessarily does, but it’s a wierd one

[Devils_Advocate]

Why on earth would you think that handball would be out of scope for denying a goal scoring opportunity?

I didnt think it was even close to being a goalscoring opportunity thats why. I was honestly shocked to see people suggesting it when I logged on after the game. I've just watched it several times again on Twitter and no way did that handball prevent Foster from being anywhere near clean through on goal

Edit: sorry thought that was a reply to me

[RicardoMontalban]

It was an obvious pen unfortunately. Before that he had touched the ball twice. Amdouni frequently bolsters the midfield in any case.
Not sure centre mid is ideal for Ramsey

There’s a massive difference between dropping back to join the two already there and the changes we're talking about here. I think that’s reasonably obvious. It’s the defensive, off the ball stuff we’re talking about and I don’t think Amdouni is remotely suited to that. Or, if you like, is less suited to it than Ramsey.

[boatshed bill]

When you run between each foot hitting the ground you have both feet off the ground. If unexpectedly one of your feet (especially if it the one you need to plant on the ground next) gets kicked from underneath it is almost certain to knock you off balance and bring you to the ground.

The old "he felt contact so he's entitled to go down" arguement.
Football is on its arse with this sort of thing.
In Ramsey's defence: where's the intent to foul?

[taio]

I didnt think it was even close to being a goalscoring opportunity thats why. I was honestly shocked to see people suggesting it when I logged on after the game. I've just watched it several times again on Twitter and no way did that handball prevent Foster from being anywhere near clean through on goal

I was responding to someone who suggested handball is out of scope for denying a goal scoring opportunity

[Devils_Advocate]

I was responding to someone who suggested handball is out of scope for denying a goal scoring opportunity

Yep my bad, added an edit and apologised as thought it was a response to me

[Rileybobs]

When you run between each foot hitting the ground you have both feet off the ground. If unexpectedly one of your feet (especially if it the one you need to plant on the ground next) gets kicked from underneath it is almost certain to knock you off balance and bring you to the ground.

…whilst rolling around holding your leg.

[Devils_Advocate]

…whilst rolling around holding your leg.

Im in no way defending the way players roll around and try to extenuate things or that they make no effort to even trt and ride the contact and stay on their feet.

The Villa player acting like an arse afterwards however doesn't change whether it was a penalty or not and I think kicking someone's foot instead of the ball as they run past after taking the ball is a clear foul

[Rileybobs]

Im in no way defending the way players roll around and try to extenuate things or that they make no effort to even trt and ride the contact and stay on their feet.

The Villa player acting like an arse afterwards however doesn't change whether it was a penalty or not and I think kicking someone's foot instead of the ball as they run past after taking the ball is a clear foul

But you’ve accepted the fact that Duran simulated an injury, so does it not also stand to reason that he simulated the affect that Ramsey’s kick had on his balance? There’s no way that the contact we saw would cause a player to fall over. And I hate the following phrase, but if you have ever played football you will know that such a challenge doesn’t cause you to hit the ground.

Duran felt a touch, and knew that in such a situation the VAR will side with the ref if given, so all he had to do was convince the ref he’d been fouled which he did by throwing himself to the ground and rolling over holding his leg.

[Safron]

I think the Ramsey change was the right call, I think people should be more annoyed with berge,s lazy attempt to fight for the ball

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I think the Ramsey change was the right call, I think people should be more annoyed with berge,s lazy attempt to fight for the ball

Only if your a Villa fan

[Devils_Advocate]

But you’ve accepted the fact that Duran simulated an injury, so does it not also stand to reason that he simulated the affect that Ramsey’s kick had on his balance? There’s no way that the contact we saw would cause a player to fall over. And I hate the following phrase, but if you have ever played football you will know that such a challenge doesn’t cause you to hit the ground.

Duran felt a touch, and knew that in such a situation the VAR will side with the ref if given, so all he had to do was convince the ref he’d been fouled which he did by throwing himself to the ground and rolling over holding his leg.

I've already explained this. When you are running you have both feet off the floor and when one foot is kicked when you arent ready for it then its hard to stay on your feet. There's endless examples in all sports and in life in general that when someone is running the slightest of unexpected touches can be enough to knock them off balance

One you feel that touch and lose your balance then throwing your arms up, not attempting to recover your balance and then rolling on the floor are all separate to the initial contact and it knocking them off balance.

Had for example the Villa players life depended on staying on his feet he would have tried to adjust himself and plant his feet somewhere and probably stumble forward maybe staying of his feet 20-30% of time (albeit the ball would have long gone) and the rest of the time he'd probably look more like Bamby on ice falling to the floor in a few awkward phases.

How many times do we see a player do everything they can to stay on their feet but ultimately lose control of the ball and then not get the foul. If I was a player I wouldn't dive but if fouled I definitely wouldnt try by hardest to stay standing at the detriment to myself

[Rileybobs]

I've already explained this. When you are running you have both feet off the floor and when one foot is kicked when you arent ready for it then its hard to stay on your feet. There's endless examples in all sports and in life in general that when someone is running the slightest of unexpected touches can be enough to knock them off balance

One you feel that touch and lose your balance then throwing your arms up, not attempting to recover your balance and then rolling on the floor are all separate to the initial contact and it knocking them off balance.

Had for example the Villa players life depended on staying on his feet he would have tried to adjust himself and plant his feet somewhere and probably stumble forward maybe staying of his feet 20-30% of time (albeit the ball would have long gone) and the rest of the time he'd probably look more like Bamby on ice falling to the floor in a few awkward phases.

How many times do we see a player do everything they can to stay on their feet but ultimately lose control of the ball and then not get the foul. If I was a player I wouldn't dive but if fouled I definitely wouldnt try by hardest to stay standing at the detriment to myself

Fair enough if you think that contact was sufficient enough to knock Duran off balance. I definitely don’t.

[Roosterbooster]

I think you could see how referees think by Mike Dean's reaction on Sky. "It's a penalty, he felt a touch and went down, like a good striker". Since when has any 'touch' been a foul?

Lyle Foster felt a big touch and went down.....

Neither were penalties. But obviously one was given. No-one's surprised in the slightest either

Berge also took much more contact before their second goal, but stayed on his feet, so was never going to get a free kck

And Villa got countless other free kicks too from nothing more than mild contact because they went down.

I like DA most of the time. But he's massively wrong on this one

[Roosterbooster]

Fair enough if you think that contact was sufficient enough to knock Duran off balance. I definitely don’t.

You only have to look at how his legs move to know the contact doesn't affect him. The wrong leg moves. There's absolutely no way the contact causes any notable effect on his motion. But he feels a touch and flings his leg to go down. Refs need to get on top of it. And quickly

[Clive 1960]

You reckon Vitinho was better than Taylor??!!

not much in it between them but he has more pace than Taylor who Bailey had on toast...

[dsr]

Im in no way defending the way players roll around and try to extenuate things or that they make no effort to even trt and ride the contact and stay on their feet.

The Villa player acting like an arse afterwards however doesn't change whether it was a penalty or not and I think kicking someone's foot instead of the ball as they run past after taking the ball is a clear foul

So if two players' boots touch in the air, it's clearly a foul - OK, I accept that is your view.

Who is it a foul for? Clearly Duran's boot touched Ramsey's. Why didn't we get a free kick?

Put it another way, if two men shake hands, how do you decide who is shaking the hand and who is having his hand shaken?

[dsr]

I've already explained this. When you are running you have both feet off the floor and when one foot is kicked when you arent ready for it then its hard to stay on your feet. There's endless examples in all sports and in life in general that when someone is running the slightest of unexpected touches can be enough to knock them off balance

One you feel that touch and lose your balance then throwing your arms up, not attempting to recover your balance and then rolling on the floor are all separate to the initial contact and it knocking them off balance.

Had for example the Villa players life depended on staying on his feet he would have tried to adjust himself and plant his feet somewhere and probably stumble forward maybe staying of his feet 20-30% of time (albeit the ball would have long gone) and the rest of the time he'd probably look more like Bamby on ice falling to the floor in a few awkward phases.

How many times do we see a player do everything they can to stay on their feet but ultimately lose control of the ball and then not get the foul. If I was a player I wouldn't dive but if fouled I definitely wouldnt try by hardest to stay standing at the detriment to myself

So is it your contention that the contact between Ramsey and Duran was so hard that Duran couldn't help fall over, but the contact between Duran and Ramsey was very much less hard? The laws of physics suggest otherwise.

Unlike you, I watch a lot of rugby. It's rare to see anyone tackled by a breath of wind or a touch on the sole of the foot. More often it takes two or three men to bring him down.

[Devils_Advocate]

So is it your contention that the contact between Ramsey and Duran was so hard that Duran couldn't help fall over, but the contact between Duran and Ramsey was very much less hard? The laws of physics suggest otherwise.

Unlike you, I watch a lot of rugby. It's rare to see anyone tackled by a breath of wind or a touch on the sole of the foot. More often it takes two or three men to bring him down.

There is a massive difference between what level of contact is needed to knock someone of balance or fully to the ground and be deemed a foul depending on the situation.

- If you are stood in front of a player barely moving and they boot your foot with force it might hurt but it wont budge you at all

- If you are running alongside someone and you anticipate them leaning into you to try and move you away from the ball you will counteract it and they will need to put more force into it than you to knock you out the way

- if you are going for a ball dropping from the sky then it only takes someone from behind to give you a little push when you arent aware of them and expecting it to make you miss the ball

- if you are running forward and the foot you are due to land on gets knocked unexpectedly it doesn't need much contact at all to cause you to lose your balance.

There's a reason in Rugby why you aren't allowed to trip players and Ramseys tackle would actually be deemed a foul in your hardman rugby game

One last example around why force needs to be considered differently and different scenarios as I aint going to argue all day so people can agree or disagree. This example has nothing to do with football but it is just to show how the same level of force in different scenarios has a massively different impact

When a lion is chasing an Antelope at pace the lions tactic is just to clip their back legs with their paw as this is enough to either knock over the antelope or make it lose balance and stumble enough for thr lion to catch it.

If that antelope was stood still grazing and it had its back leg knocked at the force the lion did when it was being chased it would barely register and would never knock the antelope of balance in the slightest.

[Devils_Advocate]

So if two players' boots touch in the air, it's clearly a foul - OK, I accept that is your view.

Who is it a foul for? Clearly Duran's boot touched Ramsey's. Why didn't we get a free kick?

Put it another way, if two men shake hands, how do you decide who is shaking the hand and who is having his hand shaken?

This is the most ridiculous argument you make. In football if one player has the ball and the other players trys to play the ball but catches the other player instead it's a foul. This is absolutely basic stuff

In yesterdays incident had the Villa player missed the ball initially and kicked Ramsey its a foul on Ramsey. When the Villa player takes the ball and Ramsey kicks their player instead of the ball its a foul on them.

[taio]

There is a massive difference between what level of contact is needed to knock someone of balance or fully to the ground and be deemed a foul depending on the situation.

- If you are stood in front of a player barely moving and they boot your foot with force it might hurt but it wont budge you at all

- If you are running alongside someone and you anticipate them leaning into you to try and move you away from the ball you will counteract it and they will need to put more force into it than you to knock you out the way

- if you are going for a ball dropping from the sky then it only takes someone from behind to give you a little push when you arent aware of them and expecting it to make you miss the ball

- if you are running forward and the foot you are due to land on gets knocked unexpectedly it doesn't need much contact at all to cause you to lose your balance.

There's a reason in Rugby why you aren't allowed to trip players and Ramseys tackle would actually be deemed a foul in your hardman rugby game

One last example around why force needs to be considered differently and different scenarios as I aint going to argue all day so people can agree or disagree. This example has nothing to do with football but it is just to show how the same level of force in different scenarios has a massively different impact

When a lion is chasing an Antelope at pace the lions tactic is just to clip their back legs with their paw as this is enough to either knock over the antelope or make it lose balance and stumble enough for thr lion to catch it.

If that antelope was stood still grazing and it had its back leg knocked at the force the lion did when it was being chased it would barely register and would never knock the antelope of balance in the slightest.

All this may be true generally, however yesterday the player went down far too easily from the softest of contact and proceeded to roll around like he'd been shot. Such contact shouldn't and doesn't automatically mean it's a penalty. The ref was conned, and VAR should've intervened.

[Devils_Advocate]

All this may be true generally, however yesterday the player went down far too easily from the softest of contact and proceeded to roll around like he'd been shot. Such contact shouldn't and doesn't automatically mean it's a penalty. The ref was conned, and VAR should've intervened.

I agree with everything you've said apart from the last bit as although the player made a meal of it I think the contact in that scenario was enough to knock him off balance. We disagree with a few things from yesterday and I've no problem with that as you and some others make a reasonable and fair case I can understand.

Some of the stuff others are posting is ridiculous and DSR comparing rugby to that scenario and his stupid thing about who is it a foul to when two players foot touch each other falls into that category.

My post above is to at least try and get people to think about how force of contact needs to be considered and adjusted for a whole range of scenarios. I dont think I need to explain this to you but Id hope you'd agree with me that some on here dont get this kind of thinking at all and just see force as a binary thing to consider

[taio]

I agree with everything you've said apart from the last bit as although the player made a meal of it I think the contact in that scenario was enough to knock him off balance. We disagree with a few things from yesterday and I've no problem with that as you and some others make a reasonable and fair case I can understand.

Some of the stuff others are posting is ridiculous and DSR comparing rugby to that scenario and his stupid thing about who is it a foul to when two players foot touch each other falls into that category.

My post above is to at least try and get people to think about how force of contact needs to be considered and adjusted for a whole range of scenarios. I dont think I need to explain this to you but Id hope you'd agree with me that some on here dont get this kind of thinking at all and just see force as a binary thing to consider

I do accept a case can be made for the penalty decision. What I don't accept in this instance is that the contact was enough to floor him - it was a blatant dive in my eyes. I like to think I often look at things objectively without bias, and do support decisions that are not in Burnley's favour.

[Rileybobs]

The Villa player actually plants his foot before registering that he’s been touched and has an opportunity to dive. It’s a clear dive.

[Devils_Advocate]

I do accept a case can be made for the penalty decision. What I don't accept in this instance is that the contact was enough to floor him - it was a blatant dive in my eyes. I like to think I often look at things objectively without bias, and do support decisions that are not in Burnley's favour.

I think he could have stayed on his feet but to do so once slightly knocked off balance I think he would have had to put all is mental focus on that and as a result the ball would have gotten away from him. That in my opinion would be a foul because the contact disrupted him enough to lose the ball however we know the refs dont give them once youve stayed on your feet.

You can feel your balance go instantly and my view is that once his boot was knocked and he felt it disrupt his balance he just gave up on trying to stay on his feet and through himself to the ground.

I dont like that and I can also again get your view of it but until fouls get awarded when players do their best to keep on their feet but it costs them possession then I cant blame them

[Goliath]

Anyone who l has ever played the game at any level knows that its a complete dive after hes felt contact. However, i must admit that I feel much more annoyance at Ramsey than their player or the referee. Its utter stupidity from him and has cost us a point.

[Devils_Advocate]

The Villa player actually plants his foot before registering that he’s been touched and has an opportunity to dive. It’s a clear dive.

Your nerves feel and react to contact immediately often before you brain even realises and you wouldnt believe how hard wired this is. I have a neuropathy illness which impacts a lot of the peripheral nerves in my feet and it has really opened my eyes to how much I relied on and reacted to the slightest touches of things to stay upright now I no longer have them.

I had to give up football as I would sometimes lose my balance and fall just from running if my focus wasnt 100% just on the act of running which in football your mind is computing multiple things at the same time.

[taio]

If there was any doubt about Duran's dive and intentions, and there really shouldn't be, his rolling around should confirm his mindset and sole aim to con the ref into awarding a pen.

[taio]

Duran's theatrics are more profound and embarrassing than I thought:

https://www.skysports.com/watch/video/s ... a-soft-one

[Rileybobs]

Your nerves feel and react to contact immediately often before you brain even realises and you wouldnt believe how hard wired this is. I have a neuropathy illness which impacts a lot of the peripheral nerves in my feet and it has really opened my eyes to how much I relied on and reacted to the slightest touches of things to stay upright now I no longer have them.

I had to give up football as I would sometimes lose my balance and fall just from running if my focus wasnt 100% just on the act of running which in football your mind is computing multiple things at the same time.

Sorry to hear about that. But it’s fair to assume Duran doesn’t have the same condition. And I can say with relative certainty that a contact so slight has never made me lose balance to the extent that I’ve fallen over.

[Devils_Advocate]

Sorry to hear about that. But it’s fair to assume Duran doesn’t have the same condition. And I can say with relative certainty that a contact so slight has never made me lose balance to the extent that I’ve fallen over.

Im not using that to compare to yesterdays scenario I was more pointing out to how much your brain and nerves are computing without you even realising it and although Duran's fot still hits the ground the touch would instantly scramble everything the brain has calculated and thats when balance cam be lost

Just looked at taio's video and if you look at the last replay at about 46 seconds you can say his foot hits the ground sooner and nearer to himself than you would expect and my view is that is where balance is lost and therefore its enough contact to be a clear foul regardless of the theatrics he does afterwards

[dsr]

What about the penalties that weren't given? The handball incident, for example. The defender touched Foster in the penalty area, a lot firmer touch than that, which as we now know would make Foster instantly unable to think,stand, run, or shoot. Why no pen? There must have been a dozen or more times when a forward was in the area and was touched. Why not a dozen pens?

[Rileybobs]

What about the penalties that weren't given? The handball incident, for example. The defender touched Foster in the penalty area, a lot firmer touch than that, which as we now know would make Foster instantly unable to think,stand, run, or shoot. Why no pen? There must have been a dozen or more times when a forward was in the area and was touched. Why not a dozen pens?

To be fair, the laws do specifically relate to trips and kicks.

[dsr]

To be fair, the laws do specifically relate to trips and kicks.

And pushes.

Besides, Foster finished on the floor. He was touched and fell down.

[Jakubclaret]

And pushes.

Besides, Foster finished on the floor. He was touched and fell down.

Weren't villa denied a stonewall penalty on Watkins.

[Rileybobs]

And pushes.

Besides, Foster finished on the floor. He was touched and fell down.

Well Foster ran into their defender whereas Ramsey kicked Duran.

[dougcollins]

Can’t they only give a red card for last man if it’s a foul on the player?

There is no law regarding 'last man'; it's 'denying a goalscoring opportunity', and that's what the handball potentially was.