Dear PGMOL

Shaun1983 · Post by **Shaun1983** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:20 pm

: Why didn’t they draw the lines parallel with the halfway line?; IMG_1955.jpeg (228.23 KiB) Viewed 3328 times

DAVETHEVICAR · Post by **DAVETHEVICAR** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:21 pm

No doubt Match of the Day will clear up all these questions.
Rather than perhaps a biased side to them

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:22 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:18 pm
I’ll watch again later, but it seemed to me that the defender was always between Foster and the goal, so whilst it was a goalscoring opportunity it wasn’t a clear goalscoring opportunity. I also don’t think it was a deliberate action, his arm was moving in a normal running action.

He deliberately moved his hand to the ball as the bounce deceived him.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:23 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:18 pm
I’ll watch again later, but it seemed to me that the defender was always between Foster and the goal, so whilst it was a goalscoring opportunity it wasn’t a clear goalscoring opportunity. I also don’t think it was a deliberate action, his arm was moving in a normal running action.

Free kick every day of the week but not a red card for me. And Mike Dean’s opinion has less relevance than Attwell’s or the VAR’s. There will always be people claiming decisions should have gone one way or the other, that doesn’t really prove anything.

For me the arm looked like it made a deliberate movement towards the ball. In that case it’s why I can’t understand why it’s not denial of a goal scoring opportunity as the last man. Mentioned Dean as at least he’s an experienced ref so his opinion, as a neutral, should carry some weight (in this discussion/debate, not the actual ref team).

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:23 pm

Rowls wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:11 pm
Yes, as rileybobs said. That was the fault of VAR more than the ref. Admittedly, the ref should have had the backbone to tell VAR where to go but he originally called it correctly onfield

Today it was onfield decisions that cost us.

Ah, i just threw the whole rotten lot in together.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:24 pm

Goody1975 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:22 pm
He deliberately moved his hand to the ball as the bounce deceived him.

I think he was always moving his arm towards the ball. I think it was deliberate handball in the context of the laws of the game, but I don’t think the player intentionally handled the ball.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:26 pm

He patted it along. It was blatant and clear as day.

Vino blanco · Post by **Vino blanco** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:27 pm

Dear PGMOL, can Burnley FC have that woman referee every week, please? I’m totally p!ssed off with these useless, clueless, sanctimonious men refs we have to put up with.

MeeActon1 · Post by **MeeActon1** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:27 pm

roperclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:07 pm
VAR was never about getting decisions correct. It was always about giving the officials a second chance to give the decision to the bigger more influential teams.

VAR is about showing that Premier League referees are the best. 99 times out of 100 it will back the referees decision, this means that their stats show that PL referees are excellent, the last thing the PL wants is VAR changing too many decisions as this would show that its referees make lots of mistakes. This is why it will always tend to agree with the on field decision. You only have to look at Dermot Gallagher on SKY, he’s there to simply tell everyone how good the referee is, it’s very rare he will question a decision, it’s all about protecting the PL product.

gandhisflipflop · Post by **gandhisflipflop** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:28 pm

He was practically playing basketball. He denied a clear goal scoring opportunity and should have been sent off. No doubt that we will get the inevitable meaningless apology in the coming days but it’s just not good enough

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:29 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:23 pm
For me the arm looked like it made a deliberate movement towards the ball. In that case it’s why I can’t understand why it’s not denial of a goal scoring opportunity as the last man. Mentioned Dean as at least he’s an experienced ref so his opinion, as a neutral, should carry some weight (in this discussion/debate, not the actual ref team).

As above, I think he made a deliberate movement in the direction of the ball but the intention wasn’t to actually handle the ball. Sometimes a players arm will be moving towards the ball. That said, it should have been a free kick and I don’t disagree with that, just the view that it prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Accept your point re Dean, but I’m sure there will be another ex-referee who agrees with the match official.

Just to clarify, I’m not in anyway defending a poor refereeing performance - just trying to add balance and look at each incident individually rather than show frustration at a culmination of 50/50’s that went against us.

claretbonkers · Post by **claretbonkers** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:31 pm

It was a clear handball, whether it was intentional or not is up for debate but, as we’ve seen all season it doesn’t seem to matter…If Foster had scored then the handball would have been irrelevant

Guller Bull · Post by **Guller Bull** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:31 pm

What is PGMOL??

Asking for an enema?

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:32 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:29 pm
As above, I think he made a deliberate movement in the direction of the ball but the intention wasn’t to actually handle the ball.

You have just defined a deliberate hand ball

Silkyskills1 · Post by **Silkyskills1** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:32 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:18 pm
I’ll watch again later, but it seemed to me that the defender was always between Foster and the goal, so whilst it was a goalscoring opportunity it wasn’t a clear goalscoring opportunity. I also don’t think it was a deliberate action, his arm was moving in a normal running action.

The defender deliberately knocked the ball away so he could get himself between Foster and the ball. It wasn't ' a normal running action' ; it was desperation on the defender's part because he knew he couldn't cope with Foster's strength and pace. Unbelievably he got away with it.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:34 pm

Goody1975 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:32 pm
You have just defined a deliberate hand ball

Deliberate as defined by the laws of the game, not deliberate as in the player had a conscious intent to handle the ball.

RVclaret · Post by **RVclaret** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:35 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:29 pm
As above, I think he made a deliberate movement in the direction of the ball but the intention wasn’t to actually handle the ball. Sometimes a players arm will be moving towards the ball. That said, it should have been a free kick and I don’t disagree with that, just the view that it prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity.

Accept your point re Dean, but I’m sure there will be another ex-referee who agrees with the match official.

Just to clarify, I’m not in anyway defending a poor refereeing performance - just trying to add balance and look at each incident individually rather than show frustration at a culmination of 50/50’s that went against us.

https://x.com/jjwatt/status/1741147269842583765?s=46

Its not just the movement either he genuinely flicks it in another direction as he knows he’s mis controlled it.

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:37 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:35 pm
https://x.com/jjwatt/status/1741147269842583765?s=46

Its not just the movement either he genuinely flicks it in another direction as he knows he’s mis controlled it.

Game, set and match.

Can't get more conclusive than that.

Somebody please try to say that's not deliberate.

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:39 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:34 pm
Deliberate as defined by the laws of the game, not deliberate as in the player had a conscious intent to handle the ball.

Think RV has proved that he consciously and deliberately handles the ball.

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:40 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:35 pm
https://x.com/jjwatt/status/1741147269842583765?s=46

Its not just the movement either he genuinely flicks it in another direction as he knows he’s mis controlled it.

I mean when you see that clip he starts moving his arm towards the ball before he even looks behind to see where the ball is. I don’t think slow motion clips like that really help.

Goody1975 · Post by **Goody1975** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:42 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:40 pm
I mean when you see that clip he starts moving his arm towards the ball before he even looks behind to see where the ball is. I don’t think slow motion clips like that really help.

Really?!!!

He goes to thigh the ball, miscontrols it and panics, as he goes to handle it he is looking towards the ball. There is 0% chance that it's an accident.

boatshed bill · Post by **boatshed bill** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:43 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:34 pm
Deliberate as defined by the laws of the game, not deliberate as in the player had a conscious intent to handle the ball.

I can honestly say that I don't understand this.

MT03ALG · Post by **MT03ALG** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:43 pm

Forest 0-0 Man United at the moment. PGMOL have not yet decided who should win this game

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:48 pm

boatshed bill wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:43 pm
I can honestly say that I don't understand this.

Well the laws of the game define ‘deliberate’ in a different way than we would use that word in every day life. Players hardly ever handle a ball deliberately, but are often penalised for deliberate hand ball.

Taffy on the wing · Post by **Taffy on the wing** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:49 pm

MT03ALG wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:43 pm
Forest 0-0 Man United at the moment. PGMOL have not yet decided who should win this game

They haven't decided how Utd will win yet ....don't you mean?

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:51 pm

Professional Game Management Officials Limited !

We Attwell certainly Managed the Game today!!!!

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:52 pm

Goody1975 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:42 pm
Really?!!!

He goes to thigh the ball, miscontrols it and panics, as he goes to handle it he is looking towards the ball. There is 0% chance that it's an accident.

I think there’s significantly more than 0% chance that’s an accident.

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:55 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:52 pm
I think there’s significantly more than 0% chance that’s an accident.

Well yes, more than 0%.

But on the other hand it's obviously a deliberate movement and clearly handball.

Maybe 1% of people who aren't villa or rovers fans would judge it that way.

RMutt · Post by **RMutt** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:00 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:48 pm
Well the laws of the game define ‘deliberate’ in a different way than we would use that word in every day life. Players hardly ever handle a ball deliberately, but are often penalised for deliberate hand ball.

I think in this instance it was definitely deliberate. There is an extra and quicker arm movement towards the ball than his normal running arm movement.

Guller Bull · Post by **Guller Bull** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:04 pm

Can we get Liverpool to write them a letter on our behalf?

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:10 pm

Rowls wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:55 pm
Well yes, more than 0%.

But on the other hand it's obviously a deliberate movement and clearly handball.

Maybe 1% of people who aren't villa or rovers fans would judge it that way.

I agree that it was handball and a free kick should have been awarded. I don’t agree that the player intentionally tried to play the ball with his hand and I don’t think the slow motion video proves otherwise. I also don’t think it prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity which is the most important thing here.

Hedontplayforyou · Post by **Hedontplayforyou** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:13 pm

123EasyasBFC wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:32 pm
Refs and VAR need to do post match interviews to explain decisions, they get away with making incorrect decisions week in week out

This!

Hold them accountable . They even have the tech to help out now they have very little excuse.

Today was an absolute disgrace . As was the Forest one with Berge some time ago now.

Hipper · Post by **Hipper** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:21 pm

It looks to me like the handball has given Foster an opportunity to score. Without the handball the defender is in control even after it bounces off his thigh.

123EasyasBFC · Post by **123EasyasBFC** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:26 pm

Hipper wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:21 pm
It looks to me like the handball has given Foster an opportunity to score. Without the handball the defender is in control even after it bounces off his thigh.

If he doesn’t handball it, foster chests it

Superjohnnyfrancis · Post by **Superjohnnyfrancis** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:27 pm

Unfortunately it was a definite penalty as he kicked his foot as he ran past him, soft probably but if you have the new michael williams on the pitch theres always a chance it will happen!

JohnMac · Post by **JohnMac** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:34 pm

I'll say it again, not corruption but incompetence combined with too many restrictions and confusing interpretations of the laws of the game.

VAR has reduced the number of goals whilst failing to address cheating and poor decision making.

FCBurnley · Post by **FCBurnley** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:40 pm

Rileybobs wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:10 pm
I agree that it was handball and a free kick should have been awarded. I don’t agree that the player intentionally tried to play the ball with his hand and I don’t think the slow motion video proves otherwise. I also don’t think it prevented a clear goalscoring opportunity which is the most important thing here.

Even if we accept your incorrect interpretation of the incident. It was still a fk in a very dangerous position and at least a yellow card ( deliberate handball) but we got nothing at all. So dress it up however you want the decision was wrong

Rileybobs · Post by **Rileybobs** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:41 pm

FCBurnley wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:40 pm
Even if we accept your incorrect interpretation of the incident. It was still a fk in a very dangerous position and at least a yellow card ( deliberate handball) but we got nothing at all. So dress it up however you want the decision was wrong

I’ve already said that the decision to not give a free kick for handball was incorrect.

Firthy · Post by **Firthy** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 7:51 pm

RVclaret wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 6:35 pm
https://x.com/jjwatt/status/1741147269842583765?s=46

Its not just the movement either he genuinely flicks it in another direction as he knows he’s mis controlled it.

When I first watched it I couldn't understand what the fuss was about as our player blatantly controls the ball with his hand until I realised we were in yellow.

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:06 pm

Rowls wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 5:42 pm
probably the first time that onfield reffing has directly led to us missing out on points.

Pen not given v Man U
Red card not given for Eduoard
Pen not given v WHU
Ref himself went to the monitor for Berge handball v Forest

Plenty of times the ref has not helped us out
VAR just ends up backing them up

I think we are possibly 9-10 points shy this year from bad refereeing decisions

Rowls · Post by **Rowls** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:10 pm

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:06 pm
Pen not given v Man U
Red card not given for Eduoard
Pen not given v WHU
Ref himself went to the monitor for Berge handball v Forest

Plenty of times the ref has not helped us out
VAR just ends up backing them up

I think we are possibly 9-10 points shy this year from bad refereeing decisions

There's been plenty of bad decision but often in games we didn't deserve to win and threw away ourselves.

Today was different: we deserved a draw at least and the ref was the crucial factor.

bfcmartin · Post by **bfcmartin** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:29 pm

There’s also the last minute handball at Bournemouth that was given as a goal kick

Jamesy · Post by **Jamesy** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:52 pm

Absolutely robbed today. On the plus side though, Foster looked and was a real threat.

ralph8 · Post by **ralph8** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:05 pm

A bit of a conspiracy theory - I wondered if you ask a Sheff U or Luton fan whether they have had similar treatment this season as we have had today.

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:16 pm

ralph8 wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:05 pm
A bit of a conspiracy theory - I wondered if you ask a Sheff U or Luton fan whether they have had similar treatment this season as we have had today.

All the teams have had bad luck to varying degrees, I can remember earlier on in the season 1 of the Sheffield United players suffered an horrific injury never to play again for them.

claret2018 · Post by **claret2018** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:42 pm

If there was a conspiracy in favour of the big established clubs wouldn’t they have stopped Villa winning today to help Arsenal/Liverpool/City?

How did they let Leicester win the league?

How did Forrest win today?

Or is it just Burnley that they are against?

Roosterbooster · Post by **Roosterbooster** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:43 pm

bfcmartin wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 8:29 pm
There’s also the last minute handball at Bournemouth that was given as a goal kick

I can forgive the ref for that. Its clear on video but not in real time

I think we have potentially lost:

1pt v Man U
3pts v Palace
1pt v Bournemouth
1pt v West Ham
1pt v Villa
2pts v Forest

Any more?

Jakubclaret · Post by **Jakubclaret** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:46 pm

Roosterbooster wrote: ↑
Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:43 pm
I can forgive the ref for that. Its clear on video but not in real time

I think we have potentially lost:

1pt v Man U
3pts v Palace
1pt v Bournemouth
1pt v West Ham
1pt v Villa
2pts v Forest

Any more?

You could potentially turn that on it’s head & ask every club throughout the PL & guaranteed they’d all state perceived injustices going against them.

Superjohnnyfrancis · Post by **Superjohnnyfrancis** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 9:50 pm

The whole organisation is not fit for purpose , the premier league needs to act but I doubt they will. They’ve probably got them in their pocket or something. Someone is making a lot of money somewhere so we get this travesty of an organisation.

Jamesy · Post by **Jamesy** » Sat Dec 30, 2023 10:08 pm

It’s not sour grapes, or our league position. This VAR or the idiots managing it are just not fit for purpose. Premier League football is now a lottery.