Everton Issues

[ISpeds00]

Called in insolvency advisors amid fresh doubt over takeover

Get them into administration

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... over-doubt

[pauliopaulio]

Would that be an automatic 10 point penalty?

[Chester Perry]

Would that be an automatic 10 point penalty?

9 points is the Portsmouth precedent - still some way from actual administration though

[Funkydrummer]

Would that be an automatic 10 point penalty?

Reduced to 2 on appeal !!!!!

[bfcjg]

Some very interesting points regarding this subject on the magic money thread.

[Aclaret]

So are they surviving on handouts ?

[hetheclaret]

Called in insolvency advisors amid fresh doubt over takeover

Get them into administration

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... over-doubt

Administration would probably be the best thing for them - it would allow someone far more competent and wealthy than 777 to buy the club at a knock off price and rebuild. 777 seem a dodgy bunch at best and only an idiot would want to buy Everton in its current state - administration might make them a much cheaper and more attractive proposition for a buyer.

[Dark Cloud]

I'm no expert unlike several others on here, but it's seemed evident for a while that 777 were going to be a case of frying pan and fire as they don't seem over blessed with cash, acumen or scruples. As said above, plain dodgy chancers! In the scramble to sell, the current ownership have conveniently chosen to overlook this, but with all their eggs in that particular basket it was always going to be extremely dangerous. If this does result in administration my first thought is the timing of this could be far from coincidental as the season closes in a couple of weeks and going under in the summer will mean points off next season rather than this and they'll be confident of riding that out over the season exactly as they have this one.

[bfcjg]

I think if it's HMRC they owe money to,they'd be in administration, likewise more mainstream lenders like banks ?
The stadium was just to glamorous and costly for what is in reality a very unfashionable club whose glory days are way in the past.

[bobinho]

I’d be interested to know when these “glory days” were… I’m nearly 60 and can’t remember anything other than one or two decent seasons in the mid 80’s.

Tin pot club.

[bfcjg]

I’d be interested to know when these “glory days” were… I’m nearly 60 and can’t remember anything other than one or two decent seasons in the mid 80’s.

Tin pot club.

As you state your only 59 .

[aggi]

The headline was a bit misleading. It's a firm that does insolvency but also restructuring, turnaround, advisory, financing, etc. There's no suggestion of administration at the moment.

[Tricky Trevor]

They’ll get away with it this season and go through it all again next and get away with it again.
Relegate all these sh1te clubs that have no idea about income and expenditure.

[Colburn_Claret]

I'm no expert unlike several others on here, but it's seemed evident for a while that 777 were going to be a case of frying pan and fire as they don't seem over blessed with cash, acumen or scruples. As said above, plain dodgy chancers! In the scramble to sell, the current ownership have conveniently chosen to overlook this, but with all their eggs in that particular basket it was always going to be extremely dangerous. If this does result in administration my first thought is the timing of this could be far from coincidental as the season closes in a couple of weeks and going under in the summer will mean points off next season rather than this and they'll be confident of riding that out over the season exactly as they have this one.

There should be, or needs to be an accumulative punishment for these repeated offenders.
Slapping them with the same 6 or 8 pt penalty, just for them to do it again means the first punishment wasn't strong enough. Surely if it is to act as a deterrent the punishment needs to increase.
I'm not imagining that it could help us this season, that is irrelevant, but as a matter of justice going forward, the level playing field has to be the goal.

[Murger]

What happened with our legal case against them?

[Ilkley claret]

They will time any administration for after the season so that any points deduction is for next season.

[NewClaret]

They will time any administration for after the season so that any points deduction is for next season.

They’d be far better taking them all this year now they’re safe. Or at least after Luton / Sheff U assuming they win one of those. Get them all out of the way in one summer.

There’s a good chance they’ll breach PSR again this year s have another points deduction next year looming. Add 9 on for an administration and it’ll be hard to overcome again without Branthwaite and Onana.

[Quickenthetempo]

I think if it's HMRC they owe money to,they'd be in administration, likewise more mainstream lenders like banks ?
The stadium was just to glamorous and costly for what is in reality a very unfashionable club whose glory days are way in the past.

To be fair, they had a Russian guy willing to fund the club and pay for the stadium.
The government stopped him.

Any club would struggle if they had to pay an extra billion for a new ground and their funding source stopped.

[Chester Perry]

What happened with our legal case against them?

No evidence to say that was ever followed up with, even after the first Premier League commission invited clubs to register claims

[HunterST_BFC]

What happened with our legal case against them?

Didn't Leeds stay up then remove their case?

Lets face it we will always be out-spent.
Certain Clubs will never Go Down.
Hedge Funds, Banking and Financially Doped Clubs will always get away with it.

Greed may one day collapse the PL but not soon enough.

[Bordeauxclaret]

They’d be far better taking them all this year now they’re safe. Or at least after Luton / Sheff U assuming they win one of those. Get them all out of the way in one summer.

There’s a good chance they’ll breach PSR again this year s have another points deduction next year looming. Add 9 on for an administration and it’ll be hard to overcome again without Branthwaite and Onana.

Didn’t Leeds do that once when they were mathematically safe?

[Down_Rover]

They may just feel it is better to take the penalty now and start life in the championship with zero points rather than -10. That sort of penalty could be terminal for them

[Anonymous Claret]

This may be a good thing for us. It could mean that they will be trying all out to win at Luton on Friday night rather than taking things easy and playing a weakened side They could take the hit for administration and still stay up.

[aggi]

Didn’t Leeds do that once when they were mathematically safe?

Fairly sure that the current rules are if you do it when safe the points penalty gets carried to the next season. Not that it is likely that Everton go into administration at the moment.

[ClaretPete001]

To be fair, they had a Russian guy willing to fund the club and pay for the stadium.
The government stopped him.

Any club would struggle if they had to pay an extra billion for a new ground and their funding source stopped.

The loss of Russian sponsors cost them £15 million in sponsorships as well.

They also suffered a £15 million Pension re-evaluation

Their accounts are a bit of a car crash. They have a wage bill of £160 million on a turnover of £172 million. Over 500 staff plus 300 match day staff.

They need an Arab state to do a City or Newcastle on them I doubt whether an American finance group will do them much good they just aren't big enough.

[Commy]

Fairly sure that the current rules are if you do it when safe the points penalty gets carried to the next season. Not that it is likely that Everton go into administration at the moment.

I thought the same regarding being safe so points deducted the season after.

[aggi]

There was also an initial expectation that a big chunk (£250m or so) of the financing for the new stadium would come from the council with a loan with very low interest rates.

If they can hang on until the new stadium opens though then that will be a big uptick for their revenue. Tottenham make something like £5m a game from their stadium.

[theduke]

The headline was a bit misleading. It's a firm that does insolvency but also restructuring, turnaround, advisory, financing, etc. There's no suggestion of administration at the moment.

Just a bit. I'm guessing now that the stadium is 75% completed they can now borrow against it with a lower interest loan to service the other debts.

Complete none story

Yesterday the press went nuts with it... went from 777 didn't pay them on time and staff wouldn't be paid... to actually Everton have used their own money to pay the staff....

to actually they had been paid on time with no issues

[theduke]

There was also an initial expectation that a big chunk (£250m or so) of the financing for the new stadium would come from the council with a loan with very low interest rates.

If they can hang on until the new stadium opens though then that will be a big uptick for their revenue. Tottenham make something like £5m a game from their stadium.

Thats not true. The council offered that but Everton turned it down and said they'd found their own funding.

[theduke]

The loss of Russian sponsors cost them £15 million in sponsorships as well.

They also suffered a £15 million Pension re-evaluation

Their accounts are a bit of a car crash. They have a wage bill of £160 million on a turnover of £172 million. Over 500 staff plus 300 match day staff.

They need an Arab state to do a City or Newcastle on them I doubt whether an American finance group will do them much good they just aren't big enough.

Big enough for what? Everton are one of the biggest clubs in this country and have a big international following, esp in the US.

They will get taken over by either sports washers or a US sports franchise, rumours that the Mumbai Indians want them also. They will have an iconic stadium on the waterfront of Liverpool.

They will get bought

[Quickenthetempo]

Big enough for what? Everton are one of the biggest clubs in this country and have a big international following, esp in the US.

They will get taken over by either sports washers or a US sports franchise, rumours that the Mumbai Indians want them also. They will have an iconic stadium on the waterfront of Liverpool.

They will get bought

If everything goes to plan. When are Everton expected to have paid for the stadium in full?

[IanMcL]

The loss of Russian sponsors cost them £15 million in sponsorships as well.

They also suffered a £15 million Pension re-evaluation

Their accounts are a bit of a car crash. They have a wage bill of £160 million on a turnover of £172 million. Over 500 staff plus 300 match day staff.

They need an Arab state to do a City or Newcastle on them I doubt whether an American finance group will do them much good they just aren't big enough.

Or just get real...

[aggi]

Thats not true. The council offered that but Everton turned it down and said they'd found their own funding.

Could be. I remember it being a pretty lengthy process but not sure who pulled it in the end. Everton paid £0.5m or so in costs on it so it must have been a serious option at one point.

[theduke]

If everything goes to plan. When are Everton expected to have paid for the stadium in full?

I imagine the plan now is for Moshiri to build the stadium and then sell to the next Sport washers or US franchise owners that would clear the debt in full.

Its all murky and Moshiri is fully in on it. The loans by 777 are unsecured, where as the MSP one is secured against the ground. If 777 don't pay the £158m loan to MSP by a deadline they can take 51% of the club and 777's loans will go to the back of the queue.

Moshiri is involved with the MSP loan... the reason MSP didn't take over the club in September is because one of Kenwrights mates RMF holdings who loaned Everton £228m rejected it as it undervalued the club.

Its starting to look like Moshiri is / will swindle 777 to make sure him and MSP will own the club without RMF being able to stop it. IF so the 777 money will be turned into equity for a % of the club, writing off the debt.

Suppose thats what happens when you are the accountant for a Russian Gangster

[TheFamilyCat]

There was also an initial expectation that a big chunk (£250m or so) of the financing for the new stadium would come from the council with a loan with very low interest rates.

If they can hang on until the new stadium opens though then that will be a big uptick for their revenue. Tottenham make something like £5m a game from their stadium.

I'm assuming the £5m per game includes ticket revenue? If so, they would have been getting a decent chunk of that previously.

You said "make" £5m, suggesting profit rather than revenue. That sounds a hell of a lot.

[aggi]

I'm assuming the £5m per game includes ticket revenue? If so, they would have been getting a decent chunk of that previously.

You said "make" £5m, suggesting profit rather than revenue. That sounds a hell of a lot.

Revenue.

Spurs turn over £100m per season more than Everton in gate receipts than Everton (£117m - £17m) to put it into context. On top of that they have way, way more in the way of catering, etc

Obviously they are different geographically and I don't think Everton could achieve that but it could still make a big, big difference.

[ClaretPete001]

Big enough for what? Everton are one of the biggest clubs in this country and have a big international following, esp in the US.

They will get taken over by either sports washers or a US sports franchise, rumours that the Mumbai Indians want them also. They will have an iconic stadium on the waterfront of Liverpool.

They will get bought

Did you actually read what I wrote. I said they need a Sports washing ownership because they aren;t big enough for the American model.

Everton are tiny compared to the big 6 plus Newcastle and West Ham.

West Ham have a turnover of more than £230 million.

Everton are closer to Burnley than the big boys in terms of finances.

No doubt they will get bought but it will take mammoth investment to get them to where they want to be...

[Big Vinny K]

The last time I looked Spurs and Arsenal were approaching 30% of their total revenue generated via match day revenue. The new stadiums for both clubs were the only way of them generating in excess of £100m per season from match day income. Obviously it also means funding debt for the stadium build but long term it looks like having a minimum capacity stadium of 60k is the strategy of the bigger clubs in the Premier League.

Everton as said above won’t generate as much as Spurs or Arsenal from their new stadium. But I would not be surprised if they bring in £75m a season or more. That’s a huge increase on their current match day revenues and a lot of this (as per the other big clubs) will come from a big increase in corporate hospitality income.

Think this will make Everton the 5th club in the league with a stadium capacity of 60k or more. There’s a number of clubs with plans in place to increase their capacity to 60k too - Man City, Liverpool will be at this level soon. Chelsea are looking at a new 60k stadium, Newcastle have recently undertaken a feasibility piece to get to 60,000 and Villa are looking at plans to get their capacity to 50,000.

That’s half the league who are looking to follow this strategy. The unfortunate thing for many football fans is that it prices them out of being able to afford season tickets. It’s not just about London prices either - it’s the percentage of tickets that go to hospitality and overseas packages (just look at the Liverpool match day revenue stats for example)

[Chester Perry]

Except the planned capacity of the new stadium is 52,888, they rained it back for the close to 60k originally discussed. Still looking at more than tripling their matchday revenue and its location makes it a strong option for concerts, therefore additional revenue. the key plan will be trying to create a significant increase in 'dwell time' so drink and food sales increase dramatically

[theduke]

Did you actually read what I wrote. I said they need a Sports washing ownership because they aren;t big enough for the American model.

Everton are tiny compared to the big 6 plus Newcastle and West Ham.

West Ham have a turnover of more than £230 million.

Everton are closer to Burnley than the big boys in terms of finances.

No doubt they will get bought but it will take mammoth investment to get them to where they want to be...

Everton tiny compared to west ham?

Er... What? When the stadium is built their revenue will end up dwarfing west ham.

You can bookmark that.

The us model will work absolutely fine for them if it's a Biggie

[ClaretPete001]

Everton tiny compared to west ham?

Er... What? When the stadium is built their revenue will end up dwarfing west ham.

You can bookmark that.

The us model will work absolutely fine for them if it's a Biggie

You keep saying this but you don't say how. Goodison's capacity is 39,000 and the new one 53,000 so it's not a game changing increase in paying customers. When it is built, gate receipts will increase and Everton will likely be in somewhat the same territory as West Ham and Newcastle, possibly £250 million, something like half the size of the big 6.

However, the stadium is a season away and the debts are big. The playing squad needs a good deal of investment on it and all that has to be paid for by someone.

But what do I know? I just look at Cities £800 million turnover and Everton's £170 million turnover and wonder how a 14,000 stadium increase in capacity and American Corporate culture will bridge the gap.

I think the Evertonians need the boys with the black stuff....! It's a terrible indictment of football finance to say it but in the real world it is likely true.

[ClaretPete001]

Except the planned capacity of the new stadium is 52,888, they rained it back for the close to 60k originally discussed. Still looking at more than tripling their matchday revenue and its location makes it a strong option for concerts, therefore additional revenue. the key plan will be trying to create a significant increase in 'dwell time' so drink and food sales increase dramatically

How is it tripling match day revenue?

Gate receipts are £17 million. It's less than a third increase in capacity.

[ClaretPete001]

Just to compare Newcastle's capacity is around 52,000 and they generate £37 million from gate receipts in a similar working class area to Everton.

[Chester Perry]

How is it tripling match day revenue?

Gate receipts are £17 million. It's less than a third increase in capacity.

It is not too difficult just look at Tottenham and consider the limited offerings and facilities at Goodison

[thomaspaine]

I’d be interested to know when these “glory days” were… I’m nearly 60 and can’t remember anything other than one or two decent seasons in the mid 80’s.

Tin pot club.

Certainly not a ‘Tin Pot club’. Everton often referred to as the ‘ Peoples Club ‘, are very similar club to Burnley in many ways . A traditional working class football club with a passionate and loyal support . As someone who lived in Liverpool for a number of years I have nothing but respect for them and much prefer them to that other lot from the city. It’s worth remembering that if wasn’t for Heysel Everton could well have gone on to lift the European Cup …… it was a wonderful team and they were very harshly treated by the authorities .

[NewClaret]

I imagine the plan now is for Moshiri to build the stadium and then sell to the next Sport washers or US franchise owners that would clear the debt in full.

Its all murky and Moshiri is fully in on it. The loans by 777 are unsecured, where as the MSP one is secured against the ground. If 777 don't pay the £158m loan to MSP by a deadline they can take 51% of the club and 777's loans will go to the back of the queue.

Moshiri is involved with the MSP loan... the reason MSP didn't take over the club in September is because one of Kenwrights mates RMF holdings who loaned Everton £228m rejected it as it undervalued the club.

Its starting to look like Moshiri is / will swindle 777 to make sure him and MSP will own the club without RMF being able to stop it. IF so the 777 money will be turned into equity for a % of the club, writing off the debt.

Suppose thats what happens when you are the accountant for a Russian Gangster

I thought CP had said MSP could only take a minority holding? If it’s 51% I really don’t see why they don’t take it. £158m for 51% of Everton is pretty good, I’d say.

I know the club don’t own the stadium, but do they own Goodison? You could take over and stay there. Let the stadium company go in to admin and pick that up dirt cheap in a few years.

I think Everton will come out of this okay but in the short term they’re in a right pickle. There will be lots of folk scamming and trying to profiteer.

Your point about Moshiri being an accountant to a Russian Gangster is the pertinent point here. He’ll still be pulling the strings behind the scenes and it wouldn’t shock me if 777’s cash is linked to Russia (nobody would risk £200m of Junior debt otherwise) so I think it just depends if the MSP guys have had their novichok vaccine.

[ClaretPete001]

It is not too difficult just look at Tottenham and consider the limited offerings and facilities at Goodison

West Ham has a 60,000 stadium and generates £40 million. Newcastle 52,000 and generates £37 million.

It's a mute point even they tripled gate revenue it would only be West Ham size....!

Let's see how it goes. Everton have to get through next season with a likely diminished squad and a lot of debt. Time will tell if 777 get the deal over the line and invest the hundreds of millions required to get competitive around the top 6 again.

[bfcjg]

Somehow Everton just won't be right in that stadium if it gets finished or they sre still a club, it'd be like putting a mongrel in the poodle section at Crufts.

[Chester Perry]

West Ham has a 60,000 stadium and generates £40 million. Newcastle 52,000 and generates £37 million.

It's a mute point even they tripled gate revenue it would only be West Ham size....!

Let's see how it goes. Everton have to get through next season with a likely diminished squad and a lot of debt. Time will tell if 777 get the deal over the line and invest the hundreds of millions required to get competitive around the top 6 again.

West Ham's share of the catering income at the London Stadium is miniscule - less than £200k for the season - Spurs turnover £800k+ a game just on food and drink, making more from 19 games of Premier League Matchday catering alone than our club does from all its Matchday, Catering and Retail sales for the year currently.

A lot of Spurs success is down to the added dwell time spend their stadium was built to encourage - Everton will be using that model

There is also a low number of Hospitality and matchday tickets at the London Stadium - the vast majority are season tickets and away fans.

[NewClaret]

West Ham has a 60,000 stadium and generates £40 million. Newcastle 52,000 and generates £37 million.

It's a mute point even they tripled gate revenue it would only be West Ham size....!

Let's see how it goes. Everton have to get through next season with a likely diminished squad and a lot of debt. Time will tell if 777 get the deal over the line and invest the hundreds of millions required to get competitive around the top 6 again.

I agree. I think a doubling of Matchday revenues (say £17m) is far more realistic than a trebling. And of course at £500m that will take a lot of additional income to repay.

Depends who is really funding the 777 investment to date. Personally I think it has to be someone very certain that they are going to gain control. Nobody would take a £200m risk on junior debt in a club more than likely going in to admin if it doesn’t go through.