Euro 2024

[RVclaret]

We went from 2/10 to 4/10. Woopy Doo

With the quality we have available, we massively under achieved, yet again. No ones knocking the players, apart from Kane, but Southgate couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.

5 games now. How many shots on target. An xg factor of less than 1. It's pathetic

Southgate has reached as many semi finals during his tenure as England have since the inception of football.

[LincsWoldsClaret]

Southgate got one thing right - he’s had the players practicing penalties since they arrived in Germany - and it showed.

Other than that he’s had some astonishing luck to mask his hesitancy.

[Darthlaw]

5 games, 1 team beaten beaten in 90 minutes.

Much better yesterday but again a failure to recognise players who are struggling and act. Kane yesterday was dead on his feet. The difference between Ronaldo the night before (in terms of movement) was chalk and cheese.

At least the German press have called him out on his easy runs in tournament football.

[taio]

We have been fortunate to get this far in the tournament. Some of Southgate's decision-making and tactics have been astonishing - I couldn't believe Trippier was playing left wing back last night after the previous games. But hopefully Southgate and the players are going to time our form and performances right and go all the way. It would be a great experience and superb for the country.

[Darthlaw]

But hopefully Southgate and the players are going to time our form and performances right and go all the way. It would be a great experience and superb for the country.

2 games remaining at best.

It’s the hope that kills you

[Colburn_Claret]

Southgate has reached as many semi finals during his tenure as England have since the inception of football.

And.......
As this tournament has shown, he has the luck of the Irish. It doesn't make anything I stated wrong.

[Mattster]

Much better yesterday but again a failure to recognise players who are struggling and act. Kane yesterday was dead on his feet.

He only reacts when it's absolutely forced on him (ie. Injury, red card). It is obvious all his substitutes are planned in advance. It was made clear when Bellingham knew he wasn't being subbed off when his number was put up; he knew he wasn't on the preset list of substitutions.

[bumba]

We have been fortunate to get this far in the tournament. Some of Southgate's decision-making and tactics have been astonishing - I couldn't believe Trippier was playing left wing back last night after the previous games. But hopefully Southgate and the players are going to time our form and performances right and go all the way. It would be a great experience and superb for the country.

If we reach the final and play say France there is no way he can play Saka right wing back and Trippier left wing back if they're up against players like Mbappe and Dembele.
He got lucky again yesterday he was reactive again we needed fresh legs desperately but they only came after a Swiss goal and he got a quick equaliser.
He is so lucky that other international teams are so poor these days too

[Darthlaw]

Teams beaten in 90 mins in:

World Cup 2018
Tunisia, Panama, Sweden

Euro 2020 (2021)
Croatia, Czechia, Germany, Ukraine

World Cup 2022
Iran, Wales, Senegal

Euro 2024
Serbia

Probably only Germany of note in that bunch, who were a shadow of a German team at the time.

Yet 2 semi’s and a final. Who says Southgate is lucky?

[RVclaret]

And.......
As this tournament has shown, he has the luck of the Irish. It doesn't make anything I stated wrong.

If he couldn’t organise a ‘**** up in a brewery’, it is highly improbable what I stated would be a fact.

[taio]

If we reach the final and play say France there is no way he can play Saka right wing back and Trippier left wing back if they're up against players like Mbappe and Dembele.
He got lucky again yesterday he was reactive again we needed fresh legs desperately but they only came after a Swiss goal and he got a quick equaliser.
He is so lucky that other international teams are so poor these days too

I agree. He has to change from this point because he's made too many very obvious mistakes, and I think or hope he will.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Teams beaten in 90 mins in:

World Cup 2018
Tunisia, Panama, Sweden

Euro 2020 (2021)
Croatia, Czechia, Germany, Ukraine

World Cup 2022
Iran, Wales, Senegal

Euro 2024
Serbia

Probably only Germany of note in that bunch, who were a shadow of a German team at the time.

Yet 2 semi’s and a final. Who says Southgate is lucky?

I was wondering this yesterday. He he ever won a tournament game where we weren’t favourites?

Going off that list, the answer is no. I remember we were favourites against Germany and the others are all clear cut.

[Colburn_Claret]

If he couldn’t organise a ‘**** up in a brewery’, it is highly improbable what I stated would be a fact.

Try watching the football instead of reading the results

[equinox]

Has anyone ever considered that maybe, just maybe the PLAYERS aren't as good as their hyped up to be?

[taio]

Has anyone ever considered that maybe, just maybe the PLAYERS aren't as good as their hyped up to be?

Not really although it should be considered - the tactical mistakes made by Southgate have been much more prominent

[RVclaret]

Try watching the football instead of reading the results

I watch the football and read the results. I think the two blend well. I’ve been critical of Southgate this tournament but he’s taken England from a rabble to 3/4 semi finals, and that is a fact. I watched Switzerland dominate Italy last week and thought he got a lot right tactically last night to stop them hurting us. He’s still too reactive for my liking in games and that seemingly won’t change, and the left back issue is still glaring, but here we are.

[Colburn_Claret]

I watch the football and read the results. I think the two blend well. I’ve been critical of Southgate this tournament but he’s taken England from a rabble to 3/4 semi finals, and that is a fact.

As a football team we are crap. That is also a fact.

[RVclaret]

As a football team we are crap. That is also a fact.

No, that’s literally the definition of an opinion.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Has anyone ever considered that maybe, just maybe the PLAYERS aren't as good as their hyped up to be?

They are though, they’ve proven it. Which is why it’s so frustrating to see us play with the handbrake on. The potential this team has in the right hands is off the scale.

No matter how poor the tactics are though, when the players are that good, individual moments or brilliance can get you through as we’ve seen in the last 16 and QF. I’d include the penalties in that as well, we’ve never had a better set of penalty takers.

[equinox]

When your chasing a game surely anyone would be a bit hesitant about taking off the countries all time leading goal score, no?

[AGENT_CLARET]

We need to get use to the way England play because we'll be watching Burnley repeat this format all season

[Darthlaw]

When your chasing a game surely anyone would be a bit hesitant about taking off the countries all time leading goal score, no?

Or being brave enough to leave them out for the good of the team, like Sir Alf Ramsay and Greavsie?

That didn’t turn out too badly.

[AGENT_CLARET]

Weghorst played half a game yesterday and was man of the match, it's a real shame we can't get the fella playing for us

[Walt]

Southgate has done well getting to 3 semis, but he has also been incredibly fortunate with how draws have opened up for him in those tournaments.

There's no doubt in my mind had we been on the other side of this tournament we'd already be at home.

His football is also shocking to watch.

[taio]

When your chasing a game surely anyone would be a bit hesitant about taking off the countries all time leading goal score, no?

Yes in terms of Kane. However, it's the general passivity, risk aversion and negative game management that has suffocated us.

[Darthlaw]

Weghorst played half a game yesterday and was man of the match, it's a real shame we can't get the fella playing for us

A little bit of me thinks he knows he’s not good enough for the PL, so tottled off back to the Bundesliga for an easier ride.

[summitclaret]

When your chasing a game surely anyone would be a bit hesitant about taking off the countries all time leading goal score, no?

Not when he was very clearly unfit.

[martin_p]

5 games, 1 team beaten beaten in 90 minutes.

Much better yesterday but again a failure to recognise players who are struggling and act. Kane yesterday was dead on his feet. The difference between Ronaldo the night before (in terms of movement) was chalk and cheese.

At least the German press have called him out on his easy runs in tournament football.

As opposed to the English press that, as always, have given the manager an easy ride?

[Rileybobs]

Southgate has done well getting to 3 semis, but he has also been incredibly fortunate with how draws have opened up for him in those tournaments.

There's no doubt in my mind had we been on the other side of this tournament we'd already be at home.

His football is also shocking to watch.

You do know why we’re not on the other side of the draw don’t you?

[martin_p]

A little bit of me thinks he knows he’s not good enough for the PL, so tottled off back to the Bundesliga for an easier ride.

Yeah, only scored 30 goals in his last season for Spurs. Garbage!

[Mattster]

Yeah, only scored 30 goals in his last season for Spurs. Garbage!

He was talking about Weghorst.

[martin_p]

You do know why we’re not on the other side of the draw don’t you?

And similarly why France and Belgium aren’t.

[Walt]

You do know why we’re not on the other side of the draw don’t you?

Obviously I do. You can't argue he's getting results but I don't think it's unreasonable to call out the football he serves up. If you enjoy that style good for you, I don't.

And he has been lucky with how the draws have opened up and he's generally avoided decent teams until latter stages.

Southgate has played teams ranked in the top 10 24 times and won 4.

[houseboy]

Look at the stats. With the exception of Alf Ramsey Southgate is by far the best England manager in history. Why are people so negative? We are in yet another semi, with a real chance of another final. Have things been perfect? No. Are we doing better than Germany, Belgium or Italy? Yes. What do people want?

[Rileybobs]

Obviously I do. You can't argue he's getting results but I don't think it's unreasonable to call out the football he serves up. If you enjoy that style good for you, I don't.

And he has been lucky with how the draws have opened up and he's generally avoided decent teams until latter stages.

Southgate has played teams ranked in the top 10 24 times and won 4.

I’ve just caught up on this thread after yesterday’s game and all I read is, how many games has Southgate won in 90 mins, how many games has he won when not the favourite, how many good teams has he beat etc. To be honest I find it pathetic and it proves that some people are pre-determined to never be happy with England. If we win the tournament it will be in spite of Southgate and because he is lucky, if we don’t win he will be responsible for not winning anything with the greatest England side ever (one that includes Konsa, Guehi and Trippier).

Southgate hasn’t been lucky with how draws have opened up because by winning our group we made our own luck.

Performances haven’t been good, but they’ve been good enough. Last night I thought we were very good in the first half and Southgate was too slow to react to the momentum shifting to the Swiss at around the hour mark. In truth their goal came a little out of nothing though but that can happen when you don’t grasp the game by the neck and let it slip.

The subs, whilst reactive, were the right ones and we ended the game the strongest and with our best penalty takers on the pitch. And the penalty shootout was a masterclass and something I’ve never seen from an England side before.

We will need to be better against the Dutch, and if we get past them we will need to be better again in the final. Here’s hoping. Some of the people on here enjoy wallowing in misery and will never enjoy it though - which is their loss.

[Walt]

For clarity I'm not negative just for the sake of it.

I'm simply saying Southgate plays dire football in my opinion and i don't enjoy that. He won again and got to another semi so fair play to him for that.

Yes, we won the group and to an extent made our own luck. The draw has been kind to him as the other side was stacked with better teams based on other teams also going to form and winning their groups, france aside.

[martin_p]

For clarity I'm not negative just for the sake of it.

I'm simply saying Southgate plays dire football in my opinion and i don't enjoy that. He won again and got to another semi so fair play to him for that.

Yes, we won the group and to an extent made our own luck. The draw has been kind to him as the other side was stacked with better teams based on other teams also going to form and winning their groups, france aside.

Better teams like France who were in the other side of the draw because they finished second in their group. Better teams like Belgium who were in the other side of the draw because they didn’t win their group.

UEFA don’t set up tournaments to have an ‘easy’ side of the draw, it only happens if some of the higher ranked teams don’t do as well as expected. In this case England winning the group as expected has meant they could benefit from less than expected performances from the other big teams that were supposed to be in England’s side of the draw.

[Claretmisterg]

We’re not winning games with flair, but when have England ever played with flair ? Historically our best players (Bobby Charlton, Bryan Robson etc. and now Kane) have been more about strength and power than flair. We occasionally have some flair (eg Gascoigne in 1990) but more recently under Southgate we have relied on pace (eg Sterling, Saka) to create attacking opportunities and opponents look to stifle them. Clubs are able to import flair players from anywhere in the world but Southgate does not have that option. I am enjoying the results, I remember the seventies when we failed to qualify for 2 world cups in succession.

[Darthlaw]

I’ve just caught up on this thread after yesterday’s game and all I read is, how many games has Southgate won in 90 mins, how many games has he won when not the favourite, how many good teams has he beat etc. To be honest I find it pathetic and it proves that some people are pre-determined to never be happy with England.

We’re sorry the facts hurt your feelings, Riley.

On a personal note, I’ve highlighted his record in tournaments for information. If you see that as pathetic or a pre determined notion to never be happy with England, that probably says more about you than me.

[Casper2]

We went from 2/10 to 4/10. Woopy Doo

With the quality we have available, we massively under achieved, yet again. No ones knocking the players, apart from Kane, but Southgate couldn't organise a **** up in a brewery.

5 games now. How many shots on target. An xg factor of less than 1. It's pathetic

So you agree a much improved performance

[Darthlaw]

So you agree a much improved performance

I think yesterday with the all the quality crosses and cutbacks (particularly from Saka), with a striker on his toes we comfortably win that game by three goals and the narrative is different.

Much less sideways passing, more movement from 9 players on the pitch (Pickford doesn’t need movement ) and more attacking.

I’d call it more of a 6/10. I do doubt Southgate has the balls to make the big decision and drop Kane though, just because he’s risk averse.

[Rileybobs]

For clarity I'm not negative just for the sake of it.

I'm simply saying Southgate plays dire football in my opinion and i don't enjoy that. He won again and got to another semi so fair play to him for that.

Yes, we won the group and to an extent made our own luck. The draw has been kind to him as the other side was stacked with better teams based on other teams also going to form and winning their groups, france aside.

I think too many people look at the historically bigger names of international football and make the assumption they are the best teams. It’s only natural as we all watch Burnley and none of us have time to watch a lot of the non-English based players or the other international teams. But Switzerland and Netherlands have been better sides than France and Belgium. Germany weren’t great, Portugal were massively flawed. Spain are the outlier and appear to be the strongest side in the tournament.

Switzerland have been one of the few most impressive teams in this tournament, and lauded by their media as the best Swiss side ever. They considered themselves favourites going into yesterday’s game. We beat them, narrowly. I don’t think anyone expected us to win by 3 goals as that’s just unrealistic and generally doesn’t happen at this stage of the Euros because any team in the last 8 has got to be a good team.

Southgate deserves criticism for some things, but he also deserves praise for others. Yet some will attribute all of his success to luck, or having the best players ever etc. if England win this tournament I can 100% guarantee some people on here will still criticise him for how we won it.

[BurnleyFC]

We might still win the tournament, even though we have been poor to underwhelming so far. I think we could struggle with the pace of the Netherlands, and Spain look like the real deal with some unbelievable talent.

I suppose that’s the beauty of tournament football, being able to win the prize without necessarily being the best team.

[martin_p]

We’re sorry the facts hurt your feelings, Riley.

On a personal note, I’ve highlighted his record in tournaments for information. If you see that as pathetic or a pre determined notion to never be happy with England, that probably says more about you than me.

The only pertinent fact here is that we’re in another semi final of a major championship.

[Rileybobs]

We’re sorry the facts hurt your feelings, Riley.

On a personal note, I’ve highlighted his record in tournaments for information. If you see that as pathetic or a pre determined notion to never be happy with England, that probably says more about you than me.

What makes you think anything has hurt my feelings?

His record in tournaments is as follows;

-Qualified for all 4 tournaments
-Reached quarter final stage of all 4 tournaments (only team in Europe to do this consecutively for the last 4)
-Got to 3 semi finals out of 4
-Got to the final of 1 out of 3 (could soon be 2 out of 4)

His tournament record is second only to Alf Ramsey which makes him the second most successful England manager OF ALL TIME.

Whichever way you want to present your ‘facts’, Southgate’s tournament record for England is very good.

[Ric_C]

Southgate has some big calls to make. Kane has been amazing for England, but it is clear to everyone, he is just a passenger at the moment. I'd bring Watkins in, and if the game goes the distance, bring Kane on if we need a goal or for Pens. He is hampering our play. Hopefully Shaw can start, as yet again our left hand side looked really fragile. Do you bring Guehi back in? Or keep Konsa?

Also Foden... Just not doing it for me, he's keeping everything simple and not offering a threat. I'd give Gordon a go. Palmer has also looked good when he comes on.

Positives were Rice, Mainoo, Saka & Konsa. Bellingham also had a better game.

We can beat the Dutch. Maybe this is the year where we actually get some luck and squeeze through to the end.

[CoolClaret]

It doesn't particularly matter what stages of the tournament Southgate reaches. The fact of the matter is that as soon as he faces a formidable team, of equal standing with a similar calibre of players, then he comes up short.

It's hardly like England playing that Brazil side in WC 2002, Portugal in Euro 2004 or whatever.

The exact same problems last night arose that has all tournament and even in many of the crunch games Southgate has faced:

- Imbalanced side, with no natural width
- Too many players that all like to occupy the same areas of the pitch (Jude/Foden/Bellingham)
- Not having the minerals to bench/not start Kane who in every big game I've ever seen him play doesn't look up to it

Kane has had far too many stinkers in big games. He doesn't have, nor ever has had the physical attributes to really force himself into a game when things aren't going his way. Far too easy to mark and lacks the separation speed/strength to win 50/50s or hold the ball up when that option is needed.

The exact same scenario happened against Croatia and Italy.

Yet again, Southgate has been bailed out be individual brilliance - the team has gotten this far in spite of his setup/tactics, not because of them.

[Big Vinny K]

Isn’t he the most successful England manager now in history in terms of tournament performances ?

Of course he may have made mistakes and some might think his tactics can be negative in certain games but managers like Keegan and Sven were criticised for being too attacking and naive.

The facts of the matter are that only one team can win each tournament and that very few countries have won a World Cup or Euros in nearly a hundred years of tournaments.

England’s world ranking has been so high in the last decade because of their consistent performances under Southgate. Belgium’s ranking has often been even higher. Croatia have a great record too and often referenced as being better than England in the big games. Out of those 3 teams how many have won a major trophy ? Only England - nearly 60 years ago.

When it comes to a tournament how many times does the “best” team or no 1 world ranked team win it ? Not that often because you need a number of stars to align to win a tournament and usually a good element of fortune too. One of the biggest things you need to win a tournament is the fitness, freshness and form of your players in the tournament. It would be difficult to argue that in Kane, Bellingham and Foden, England had 3 of the best performing club players in the world this season. 2 of those players have had pretty shocking tournaments and even Bellingham has been up and down. I’d add Declan Rice to that list too - an outstanding season and been bang average in Euros.

Then you look at the likes of Walker and Trippier - both who have been absolutely awful this Euros. This is especially the case for Walker who has had a nightmare tournament despite having another unbelievably good season for City. How can anything that Southgate does tactically counter the mistakes Walker has made ? Yesterday he was struggling to make a simple 5 yard pass with the correct weight or direction and I’ve lost count of the number of times he’s been caught out of position. Southgate is not playing Walker out of position or asking him to do anything that different to what he does for City.

England are still in the tournament not inspite of Southgate at all. It’s because they have still got some exceptional players who can produce exceptional moments. Southgate was the one who gave the likes of Saka and Bellingham their chance in the England team at young ages - for him not to get any credit for Englands performances makes no sense especially when you see the sh-it show of managers that went before him. Why is Terry Venables regarded as a god when he had one half decent summer as a manager ?!!!

[Darthlaw]

Whichever way you want to present your ‘facts’, Southgate’s tournament record for England is very good.

Until we reach decent opposition, then we lose - As I’ve illustrated.

Just looking at Southgate’s point of knockout in tournaments, in isolation, is like suggesting David Nugent is an excellent striker because he had a goal a game record for England.

Another pertinent fact; tournaments won - 0, Which puts him on the same as every other England manager bar Sir Alf.

[dougcollins]

That fixation with the long ball from Pickford ( more than any other team by a distance) to Kane- unless my eyes deceive me, Kane won exactly zero of those headers. In most cases, his feet didn't leave the ground.

But we just kept doing it.