Southgate or Sir Alf?

[Devils_Advocate]

If England beat Spain on Sunday then Southgate becomes the undisputed best football manager England has ever had.

My question for this messageboard however, is that should England lose (I expect they will to a great Spanish team) who would you rate as the #1 England manger of all time between Southgate and Sir Alf.

Personally I think that what Southgate has achieved over several tournaments and on foreign soil just pips what ir Alf did on that one off victory

[Vintage Claret]

Good question.

2 Euro Finals and a World semi is no mean achievement for a manager and all credit to Southgate for that.

However, we're constantly reminded football is a results business so IF we lose on Sunday, technically I guess it still has to be Ramsey as we actually won a trophy under his tenure.

I'm not so sure we will lose on Sunday though, although Spain are a good team and understandably favourites I just sense the momentum may be with England..

(Just like Burnley in the 2009/10 season when we weren't the 3rd best team in the league but you just sensed we were somehow going to win the play-offs once we got there)

[Clive 1960]

Sir Alf won the biggest trophy the World Cup and of debate ...

[Woodleyclaret]

They are both stubborn sods who have marginalised players .Ramsey got lucky bur then so does Southgate Both frustrated the fans with bissare tactics . Southgate is the permanent bridesmaid maybe his luck will overcome Spain .
If so I would say he just shades it

[bobinho]

Sir Alf. Won a major trophy…. Actually, he won THE major trophy. How anyone argues against that being the deciding factor in his favour is bizarre.

Southgate’s win ratio is probably better, but in this day and age, there are plenty of pointless and unnecessary games against minnows, as opposed to the higher level of opposition faced by the teams of the 60’s.

[Shaggy]

Southgate is shite. Hardly ever beaten a good side.

England are just flat track bullies and even then makes it look difficult.

[Spike]

Sir Alf and as a added bonus Rovers got relegated from Top Division that year

[IanMcL]

Sir Alf. He took over from a committee deciding the squad and turned his choices into a team, with a new way of playing....said he would win the World Cup and did.

[ClaretTony]

Credit to Walter Winterbottom who told the FA it was time they had a professional manager who picked the team and they chose Alf Ramsey, a strange character who used to tell the press to mind their own business if they asked for any information.

He moved England forward tremendously but he made that big mistake when he thought the quarter final was won in 1970 by bringing off players. That was our best team too and we might just have made it tougher for Brazil in the final.

Sir Alf for me.

[dibraidio]

Southgate is a second rate manager with a superstar squad. When we play Slovakia or Slovenia this should be like Man City playing Burnley. It isn't because Southgate is not Pep, he's a failed Championship manager. It's a shame for the players. We have had decent results against the average sides and the luck of the draw in the last couple of Euros but we never seem to win against the better sides which I put down to Southgate's poor tactics.

[Dyched]

Southgate is a second rate manager with a superstar squad. When we play Slovakia or Slovenia this should be like Man City playing Burnley. It isn't because Southgate is not Pep, he's a failed Championship manager. It's a shame for the players. We have had decent results against the average sides and the luck of the draw in the last couple of Euros but we never seem to win against the better sides which I put down to Southgate's poor tactics.

Most football teams don’t win against “better” sides

[Tricky Trevor]

Ramsey won a World Cup, lost a Euro semi-final to Yugoslavia(after Mullery was sent off) and lost the 1970 QF after Banks went down ill and his substitutions, a decision that was correct given the circumstances. He also won the title with Ipswich.
He also invented a system, 4-3-3, that changed the game.
Southgate has had great draws and lost leads to often. No comparison.

[Darthlaw]

‘Undisputed’ followed by all bar one reply disputing the fact.

Good quality cast though DA, caught some big fish there.

[PremierLeagueClass]

When Messi won the World Cup, that ended the Ronaldo/Messi debate once and for all. Similar case here. The World Cup is the big one, until he wins that he can’t be considered the most successful in my book.

[SouthLondonexile]

I think Southgate has achieved two finals now and what’s more has assembled a really good squad.
Alf Ramsey did not make some right calls in 1970.
His substitutions when we were 2 - 0 up against Germany.
Also he didn’t take to Mexico a brilliant winger who had courage and strength - Ralph Coates!

[Juan Tanamera]

‘Undisputed’ followed by all bar one reply disputing the fact.

Good quality cast though DA, caught some big fish there.

His alter egos like to think so.

[Juan Tanamera]

The amount of trophies that Gareth Southgate has won

____________0

[claretronnie]

Who's Sir Alf?

[ŽižkovClaret]

Who's Sir Alf?

To think you told people to do more research on another thread

[FCBurnley]

Both have the same level of charisma

[houseboy]

Southgate is shite. Hardly ever beaten a good side.

England are just flat track bullies and even then makes it look difficult.

He just did last night.

[Woodleyclaret]

One of England's best players in Mexico Keith Newton .Evertons loss was our gain, one of our best ever full backs

[houseboy]

I’ve been asking this question for a while among mates. Yes Ramsey won the World Cup (and didn’t he get us to the quarter finals in Mexico). Southgate as yet has won nothing. But two things cloud the issue I think. First off as has been said Southgate has been consistently reasonably successful over a long period of time, more than Ramsey, and when we won the World Cup the standard of world football generally was a lot worse than now. There are far fewer ‘bad’ teams in finals now.
As it stands I would give it to Ramsey (just) as an actual winner, but if we win on Sunday I think Southgate will shade it.

[Rowls]

when we won the World Cup the standard of world football generally was a lot worse than now. There are far fewer ‘bad’ teams in finals now.
As it stands I would give it to Ramsey (just) as an actual winner, but if we win on Sunday I think Southgate will shade it.

Au contraire, mon ami!

The World Cup had far fewer teams, meaning that the relative standard was much higher.

The softest game England had in '66 was against Mexico.

Although the increased size of competitions means we've played an extra game just compare the teams played:

1966
Uruguay
France
Mexico
Argentina
Portugal
West Germany

2024
Serbia
Denmark
Slovenia
Slovakia
Switzerland
Netherlands

Only Denmark and Netherlands can be reasonably assessed as being a top quality nation these days. In contrast, everybody apart from Mexico in '66 were a world power. And every country bar Portugal has a comparable population size, and that Portugal side was led by Eusabio. Until the arrival of Ronaldo it was considered their best ever team and his Benfica side were one of the finest in the world.

As much as I actively dislike and even detest Southgate, you can't take away his record. However, the inclusion of the smaller and lesser nations has made it easier for fortuitous routes to the final to emerge. If the draw is on your side then teams like France and Spain (an example off the top of my head) can knock each other out whilst you might get lucky and draw (again, off the top of my head, somebody like Switzerland).

Take nothing away from last night. Southgate got it right and we put in a fantastic performance.

Come on Eng-ger-lund!

[Dazzler]

Alf Ramsey did not make some right calls in 1970.
His substitutions when we were 2 - 0 up against Germany.

Ramsay took Charlton off for Bell 2 mins after Beckenbauer scored to make it 2-1.
Then he subbed Peters for Hunter 1 minute before Seeler scored to make the score 2-2.

Big time cock ups

[Buxtonclaret]

Never really considered the French a 'World Power' in footy until the 80s, Rowls.

[Darnhill Claret]

England under Southgate have never had easy draws. All teams start equal. Their route to the final is determined by how well they do in the groups. England have 'won' their knockout routes by winning their groups.

[Darnhill Claret]

Did Serbia, Slovenia and Slovakia even exist in 66?

[Darnhill Claret]

Maybe compare rankings, but even then you can't help which teams are placed in your group, plus we now have more countries qualifying for tournaments.

[Darnhill Claret]

We had never reached a Euros final prior to Southgate.

[Foshiznik]

These are the teams and results from the last 4 (including this year) tournaments under Southgate. The headlines say 2 Euros finals, a Quarter final and semi final at 2 world cups. However, look at the teams we've played. Only Germany in 2021 and last night's game can we truly say we've done the same/better than expected. I don't understand how we've managed to be so lucky to be honest.

2018 WC Russia
GS - Tunisia W 2-1
GS - Panama W 6-1
GS - Belgium L 0-1
L16 - Colombia D 1-1 (W 4-3 on penalties)
QF - Sweden W 2-0
SF - Croatia L 1-2

Euro 2020/21
GS - Croatia W 1-0
GS - Scotland D 0-0
GS - Czechia W 1-0
L16 - Germany W 2-0
QF - Ukraine W 4-0
SF - Denmark W 2-1
Final - Italy D 1-1 (L 3-2 on penalties)

2022 WC Qatar
GS - Iran W 6-2
GS - USA D 0-0
GS - Wales W 3-0
L16 - Senegal W 3-0
QF - France L 1-2

Euro 2024
GS - Serbia W 1-0
GS - Denmark D 1-1
GS - Slovenia D 0-0
L16 - Slovakia W 2-1
QF - Switzerland 1-1 (W 5-3 on penalties)
SF - Netherlands 2-1
Final - Spain - TBD

[ecc]

Did Serbia, Slovenia and Slovakia even exist in 66?

Is that a serious question?

[BigJay]

Depends if we win Sunday. He'll be Sir Gareth if we win Sunday anyway. And his achievements will then exceed Sir Alf Ramsey, winning a major tournament away plus 2 more semis and a final

[Foshiznik]

Depends if we win Sunday. He'll be Sir Gareth if we win Sunday anyway. And his achievements will then exceed Sir Alf Ramsey, winning a major tournament away plus 2 more semis and a final

If you looked up two posts I literally just put the results of Southgate's tournaments. It was 1 semi final and 1 quarter final in WCs and 2 finals in the euros.

[Vino blanco]

Did Serbia, Slovenia and Slovakia even exist in 66?

You’re right, as independent footballing nations they didn’t exist. Serbia and Slovenia were part of Yugoslavia, whilst Slovakia was part of Czechoslovakia.

[Rowls]

Never really considered the French a 'World Power' in footy until the 80s, Rowls.

They were on the decline in '66 but still had a good side. No pushovers.

They had an excellent side in the 30s and also the late 50s / early 60s.

[martin_p]

These are the teams and results from the last 4 (including this year) tournaments under Southgate. The headlines say 2 Euros finals, a Quarter final and semi final at 2 world cups. However, look at the teams we've played. Only Germany in 2021 and last night's game can we truly say we've done the same/better than expected. I don't understand how we've managed to be so lucky to be honest.

2018 WC Russia
GS - Tunisia W 2-1
GS - Panama W 6-1
GS - Belgium L 0-1
L16 - Colombia D 1-1 (W 4-3 on penalties)
QF - Sweden W 2-0
SF - Croatia L 1-2

Euro 2020/21
GS - Croatia W 1-0
GS - Scotland D 0-0
GS - Czechia W 1-0
L16 - Germany W 2-0
QF - Ukraine W 4-0
SF - Denmark W 2-1
Final - Italy D 1-1 (L 3-2 on penalties)

2022 WC Qatar
GS - Iran W 6-2
GS - USA D 0-0
GS - Wales W 3-0
L16 - Senegal W 3-0
QF - France L 1-2

Euro 2024
GS - Serbia W 1-0
GS - Denmark D 1-1
GS - Slovenia D 0-0
L16 - Slovakia W 2-1
QF - Switzerland 1-1 (W 5-3 on penalties)
SF - Netherlands 2-1
Final - Spain - TBD

Just for balance can we list all the tournaments where we’ve played ‘rubbish’ sides and not made the QF/SF/Final?

[IanMcL]

Credit to Walter Winterbottom who told the FA it was time they had a professional manager who picked the team and they chose Alf Ramsey, a strange character who used to tell the press to mind their own business if they asked for any information.

He moved England forward tremendously but he made that big mistake when he thought the quarter final was won in 1970 by bringing off players. That was our best team too and we might just have made it tougher for Brazil in the final.

Sir Alf for me.

Bobby Charlton, no less. Then that Uwe Seeler chap went and backheaded it!

[houseboy]

Did Serbia, Slovenia and Slovakia even exist in 66?

Yes. Serbia was part of Yugoslavia (who were not a bad side) and Slovakia were part of what was Czeckoslovakia (again a decent side). Not entirely sure about Slovenia although Yugoslavia comes to mind again.

[Wile E Coyote]

southgate by a country mile, 66 was a tinpot tiny home based tournament, and none of the teams that eventually became powerful like Argentina were back then.
No media spotlight whatsoever, no idiot punditry, no newspapers digging up dirt on your family because you drew a game. No pressure from betting or beer companies, no savagery from simpleton red tops or the verminous talk sport half wits.
southgate has progressed in a game a hundred times more difficult. and yet another final against elite footballing nations.

[Wokingclaret]

southgate by a country mile, 66 was a tinpot tiny home based tournament, and none of the teams that eventually became powerful like Argentina were back then.
No media spotlight whatsoever, no idiot punditry, no newspapers digging up dirt on your family because you drew a game. No pressure from betting or beer companies, no savagery from simpleton red tops or the verminous talk sport half wits.
southgate has progressed in a game a hundred times more difficult. and yet another final against elite footballing nations.

Don't be silly man, Southgate has it easy

[Dyched]

These are the teams and results from the last 4 (including this year) tournaments under Southgate. The headlines say 2 Euros finals, a Quarter final and semi final at 2 world cups. However, look at the teams we've played. Only Germany in 2021 and last night's game can we truly say we've done the same/better than expected. I don't understand how we've managed to be so lucky to be honest.

2018 WC Russia
GS - Tunisia W 2-1
GS - Panama W 6-1
GS - Belgium L 0-1
L16 - Colombia D 1-1 (W 4-3 on penalties)
QF - Sweden W 2-0
SF - Croatia L 1-2

Euro 2020/21
GS - Croatia W 1-0
GS - Scotland D 0-0
GS - Czechia W 1-0
L16 - Germany W 2-0
QF - Ukraine W 4-0
SF - Denmark W 2-1
Final - Italy D 1-1 (L 3-2 on penalties)

2022 WC Qatar
GS - Iran W 6-2
GS - USA D 0-0
GS - Wales W 3-0
L16 - Senegal W 3-0
QF - France L 1-2

Euro 2024
GS - Serbia W 1-0
GS - Denmark D 1-1
GS - Slovenia D 0-0
L16 - Slovakia W 2-1
QF - Switzerland 1-1 (W 5-3 on penalties)
SF - Netherlands 2-1
Final - Spain - TBD

Actually look at the history of competitions. In almost ALL world cups and Euros the eventual winners don’t play “big” team after “big” team. It’s mostly 2. Is the weird fascination that we’ve got easy draws is puzzling.

Brazil 2002
Germany (Final)
England (Are we really classed as big with our history)

France 98
Brazil (Final)
Italy (Penalties)

France 2000
Beat by Netherlands
Spain (Were they really “big” then, I think not)
Portugal (Again “big”?)
Italy

Italy who made the final only beat Netherlands on the way


Spain 2008
Germany (Final)
Italy (Penalties)

Germany who made the final only beat Portugal. Lost against Croatia in the group

Portugal 2016
Spain (Final)

France who made the final only beat Germany

[Quickenthetempo]

Without knowing much of Alf Ramsay's era, I presume he was thought to be the best manager in the league/country to get the England job?

I don't think international managers are the best in the country anymore?

[HahaYeah]

Sir Alf Ramsey was successful whereas Southgate has not been, he hasn't won anything.

The World Cup is more prestigious than the Euros.

[ecc]

Never really considered the French a 'World Power' in footy until the 80s, Rowls.

France were poor for a long time post 1962 once Kopa, Fontaine, Vincent and Piantoni had departed. They had to wait until the mid-seventies before a new generation of quality players broke through: Battiston, Bossis, Michel, Platini, Rocheteau and Trésor.

[ecc]

The whole country standings/seedings system added to the increased number of countries participating in the WC and Euro means that once you're in the loop you don't play tough game after tough game.

England qualified automatically in 1970 as holders. Many observers consider that WC as the best ever. All I know is that England may well have been better in 1970 than four years earlier but Brazil were as invincible as any team has been and both West Germany and Italy had two of their best teams ever.

Comparing eras is very difficult but IMHO in 2018 only France were anywhere near the level of four or five of the countries in 1970. Whether England could have beaten them in the final is a moot point.

[MT03ALG]

Until Southgate wins the World Cup, Sir Alf is the better Manager.

[ecc]

Actually look at the history of competitions. In almost ALL world cups and Euros the eventual winners don’t play “big” team after “big” team. It’s mostly 2. Is the weird fascination that we’ve got easy draws is puzzling.

Brazil 2002
Germany (Final)
England (Are we really classed as big with our history)

France 98
Brazil (Final)
Italy (Penalties)

France 2000
Beat by Netherlands
Spain (Were they really “big” then, I think not)
Portugal (Again “big”?)
Italy

Italy who made the final only beat Netherlands on the way


Spain 2008
Germany (Final)
Italy (Penalties)

Germany who made the final only beat Portugal. Lost against Croatia in the group



Portugal 2016
Spain (Final)

France who made the final only beat Germany

Hi Dyched,

Very interesting post and thank you for taking the time to back up your point.

There is a gulf between reality and perception. You raise this point when saying "England (Are we really classed as big with our history)" and Spain (Were they really “big” then, I think not).

I don't wish to fire missiles on England but history shows one trophy won in history (1966).

Whether people like Southgate or not, under him England have now reached two Euro finals and a WC SF.

[equinox]

The '66 World Cup Final is on Channel4 in 15 minutes, see what you can blame Southgate for in this one?

[Buxtonclaret]

France were poor for a long time post 1962 once Kopa, Fontaine, Vincent and Piantoni had departed. They had to wait until the mid-seventies before a new generation of quality players broke through: Battiston, Bossis, Michel, Platini, Rocheteau and Trésor.

That's how I thought thing went for them too.
Although I don't recall all the early names.