Mission to Burnley 2

[morninbob]

Haven't seen anyone mention how close we came to getting Cole Palmer, mad when you think about it.

[Rileybobs]

Haven't seen anyone mention how close we came to getting Cole Palmer, mad when you think about it.

I think it’s fair to say that situation played out much better for Palmer than for us.

[Clive 1960]

I take it you've never seen one of Pep's rants?

No i haven't and there's no need for it , what effect do you think it had on those young lad's nevermind the experience guys.

[NewClaret]

I was responding to your comments on this thread that nobody predicted how bad a season we were going to have or were going into last season negative.
I was explaining why this was a pretty obvious feeling amongst most people but how this very quickly changed when they saw what was happening on the pitch.

You may not care about last season but that’s like saying you don’t care about the promotion season. Irrespective of whether you care or not a lot of fans obviously do care not just because we got it so wrong but because it is very relevant to our future. One look at our finances should make that clear.

I think we’re agreeing then. I never said it didn’t change as the season started. My only point was in relation to the board and how I don’t think it’s fair to say they could’ve predicted that the strategy was wrong as they were putting it in to place.

What MtB showed was that they’d realised the mistakes. Or Checketts had more specifically, which is pleasing we have a board that isn’t an echo chamber.

[Row x]

No i haven't and there's no need for it , what effect do you think it had on those young lad's nevermind the experience guys.

Peps won loads, players seem OK with it

Fergie won lots despite throwing things at players, and ranting most games

Did Kompany go over the top? Yes probably, but I doubt it will have any lasting impact on any of the players involved

[NewClaret]

I think it’s fair to say that situation played out much better for Palmer than for us.

Just a bit.

A sliding doors moment because we’d likely have stayed up if we’d signed Palmer.

[boyyanno]

I think we’re agreeing then. I never said it didn’t change as the season started. My only point was in relation to the board and how I don’t think it’s fair to say they could’ve predicted that the strategy was wrong as they were putting it in to place.

What MtB showed was that they’d realised the mistakes. Or Checketts had more specifically, which is pleasing we have a board that isn’t an echo chamber.

There were concerns raised about the transfer business though, just because you were blind to it it's a bit disingenuous to claim everyone was.

[NewClaret]

Peps won loads, players seem OK with it

Fergie won lots despite throwing things at players, and ranting most games

Did Kompany go over the top? Yes probably, but I doubt it will have any lasting impact on any of the players involved

Agree. His treatment of JBG was not good. No excuses. Difficult to watch.

But successful managers across history have all had a certain fear factor about them. Authority. It’s a good motivator is fear - certainly in that setting with loads of young lads full of testosterone and egos.

I know across my career I’ve always been ‘sharper’ with managers that are tough and call you out if you’re not in your game. It’s easy to coast with a Mr Nice Guy.

[Clive 1960]

Peps won loads, players seem OK with it

Fergie won lots despite throwing things at players, and ranting most games

Did Kompany go over the top? Yes probably, but I doubt it will have any lasting impact on any of the players involved

your opinion, might is different from playing and coaching school children and watching my Son play down at school of excellence, there's no need for it and like i said Kompany could have been doing it for the camera, i don't know .

[Row x]

your opinion, might is different from playing and coaching school children and watching my Son play down at school of excellence, there's no need for it and like i said Kompany could have been doing it for the camera, i don't know .

Obviously it's not ok towards schoolchildren, but that's not the case in this instance

[Clive 1960]

Obviously it's not ok towards schoolchildren, but that's not the case in this instance

It's also classed as abuse towards a employee in any work environment ...

[NewClaret]

There were concerns raised about the transfer business though, just because you were blind to it it's a bit disingenuous to claim everyone was.

There were and I probably also said we needed to further strengthen midfield and a LB.

But surely you’re not disagreeing that the general consensus among fans was very positive heading in to the season?

There was no talk that Kompany was the wrong man, that we needed to change playing style, and whilst there were a few rumblings that we needed more experience I think the transfer window was generally well received (again, happy for someone to find the scores that everyone gave it if there was a thread?), hence it’d have been unfair of us to expect the board to predict where it was all headed too.

[NewClaret]

It's also classed as abuse towards a employee in any work environment ...

That is true. If someone spoke to someone like that in a normal work setting and it was caught on camera they’d be fired instantly. And rightly so.

A football club/pitch isn’t really a normal work setting though.

I’d also be shocked if Stan, Dyche, etc hadn’t had similar run-ins with several players each over the years.

As it turns out, I think it’s best he left now and I’m glad JBG came back.

[Row x]

It's also classed as abuse towards a employee in any work environment ...

In which case every manager in the world will have been guilty of that at some point in their career

[Clive 1960]

That is true. If someone spoke to someone like that in a normal work setting and it was caught on camera they’d be fired instantly. And rightly so.

A football club/pitch isn’t really a normal work setting though.

I’d also be shocked if Stan, Dyche, etc hadn’t had similar run-ins with several players each over the years.

As it turns out, I think it’s best he left now and I’m glad JBG came back.
[/quote

that's the best thing to come out of it is that Jay and JBG signed for this season for there experience in the dressing room. On one last point a ex manager did have is run in with 2 ex players that i won't name who you mentioned down at the Turf but that couldn't happen today as to many cameras about..

[Clive 1960]

In which case every manager in the world will have been guilty of that at some point in their career

not all managers are the same, plus it's a different world today we live in . Looking at Scott i wouldn't expect him to rant and rave at players well i hope not ..

[PremierLeagueClass]

not all managers are the same, plus it's a different world today we live in . Looking at Scott i wouldn't expect him to rant and rave at players well i hope not ..

This kind of thing goes on at all clubs. I’m as big a fan of Dyche as anyone but he was no different.

[helmclaret]

What happened to that Russian (I think) finance guy that joined us from Everton? I thought he was a director but no mention of him on the staff directory?

[burnmark]

I may be way off and possibly missed a bit whilst watching, but I took the Cole Palmer talk as an opening for Maatsen in that Chelsea would have wanted to recuperate some of the cash they paid for Palmer by selling him.

[ClaretTony]

I think we’re agreeing then. I never said it didn’t change as the season started. My only point was in relation to the board and how I don’t think it’s fair to say they could’ve predicted that the strategy was wrong as they were putting it in to place.

What MtB showed was that they’d realised the mistakes. Or Checketts had more specifically, which is pleasing we have a board that isn’t an echo chamber.

I think you are assuming that Pace will take note and act on what Checketts said. His only response was to tell Checketts that the policy will work. Where does it show those making decisions have realised their mistakes?

[Chester Perry]

What happened to that Russian (I think) finance guy that joined us from Everton? I thought he was a director but no mention of him on the staff directory?

you mean Alexander Ryazantsev - it was an advisory role, not permanent

https://www.burnleyfootballclub.com/con ... fo-advisor

as you say the club no longer list him but his LinkedIN page says he is still with us

https://uk.linkedin.com/in/alexander-r-90707216b

[cblantfanclub]

Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman writes interestingly about randomness and more specifically about about the results of shouting against praise. He did this with Israeli airforce instructors reactions to how student pilots performed. The instructors believed shouting was a beneficial tool. In reality it made no difference at all.
If you want the full story and it’s explanation it’s in Leonard Mlodinows book “ The Drunkards Walk”

[CoolClaret]

Nobel prize winner Daniel Kahneman writes interestingly about randomness and more specifically about about the results of shouting against praise. He did this with Israeli airforce instructors reactions to how student pilots performed. The instructors believed shouting was a beneficial tool. In reality it made no difference at all.
If you want the full story and it’s explanation it’s in Leonard Mlodinows book “ The Drunkards Walk”

Thanks for that, sounds interesting - I'm gonna check it out.

[cblantfanclub]

Page 7 on

[Papabendi]

I think you are assuming that Pace will take note and act on what Checketts said. His only response was to tell Checketts that the policy will work. Where does it show those making decisions have realised their mistakes?

I'll slightly disagree here that, given the number of people contributing to that board, they do have a certain plurality of opinion. Just because someone doesn't agree in the moment does not suggest ideas fall on deaf ears.

[123EasyasBFC]

I think you are assuming that Pace will take note and act on what Checketts said. His only response was to tell Checketts that the policy will work. Where does it show those making decisions have realised their mistakes?

Absolutely nobody has realised their mistakes, pace thinks it’s going to work but checketts is the only person who was talkin any sense but it needs more of the so called football people at the club to voice the same opinions, the likes of Williams, Mooney and Jenkins

[Newcastleclaret93]

I'll slightly disagree here that, given the number of people contributing to that board, they do have a certain plurality of opinion. Just because someone doesn't agree in the moment does not suggest ideas fall on deaf ears.

I think the evidence is there that it has fallen on deaf ears.

[JohnMcGreal]

Not seen the incident with VK and JBG yet but I do remember seeing an interview with Giggs and Scholes a number of years ago, and they gave the impression that Ferguson would regularly dig them out and lay into them in front of everyone in the dressing room, basically as a way of sending a message to the other, less experienced players. Like if club legends like Giggs and Scholes could be on the end of the hairdryer so could anyone.

Also as experienced pros who'd been around the club for many years, Ferguson knew they could take it from him, whereas if he'd laid into a younger, less experienced player it could have the opposite effect and finish their career at the club.

I'm not saying it's right (nobody should have to put up with that kind of abuse in the workplace) but maybe VK felt he was doing something similar in this case.

[Papabendi]

I think the evidence is there that it has fallen on deaf ears.

How so?

[Newcastleclaret93]

How so?

Just the way it was shut down. I think Checketts was talking a lot of sense.

Credit where credit is due I have given both Pace and VK a hard time last season but actually that documentary has changed my opinion.

I’m going to be a bit more cautious this season and get behind Parker.

Looking forward to this season

[superdimitri]

Link to first episode.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X-X_oo ... sp=sharing

Thank you. Did you view the video back after you recorded it? It repeats every few seconds and then reverts and repeats.

[Big Vinny K]

Now watched all 4 episodes.

Pace did seem genuinely upset in the last one at being relegated. But he was also at his cringeworthy best asking the Arsenal directors to give him 3 points whilst they were tucking into their beef tartar

Checketts did question the strategy but there was a real lack of debate or challenge back to him. I’m not even sure that Checketts understood that well the point he was trying to make - he wasn’t articulating it that well. It may have just been him stating the bleeding obvious that something was wrong with the strategy given our performance in the league. For me it just reinforces the point that we seem to have a lot of people at the club in senior positions who do not understand the game or the industry.

This is further borne out by the discussion they had with Lee Mooney about budgets and transfers. Far too much emphasis and influence in Mooney and his analytics team. For Mooney to come up with a figure of 35% which represents our chances of staying up based on our budget and for them to be seemingly hanging on to this figure like it’s gospel just showed to me how far we have lost the plot.

If you would have presented to investors that spending the best part of £200m in 2 years on new players but this would only give you a 1 in 3 chance of staying up they would have laughed you out of town. So why would they give any credibility to this figure in January 2024 when we are already virtually relegated. It felt like somebody who had played a massive role in spending a fortune on players not good enough all of a sudden finding excuses to say it was never going to be enough money anyway. If that was case then you may aswell spend £10m and we still get relegated.


In terms of the rest of the episodes it was good to see the spell of games when we were playing better and how the players became more positive even if it was too little too late. Those draws against Brighton and Wolves when both teams were pretty shocking really killed us. As did that performance against Bournemouth where we just fell apart after looking really lively as it was against a team that were in really poor form and their best player Solanke played that game injured and did nothing. Those missed opportunities playing against teams who were there for the taking were similar to the home games against Palace, West Ham and even Man United.

[PremierLeagueClass]

Really enjoyed that surprisingly.

Anybody know if there are plans for a third season?

We've definitely got some good people involved in the club. Alan is never going to win over the older 'back in my day' section of the fanbase (which we know is very prevalent on this messageboard), but he's clearly a very clever bloke and I think we're better for having him at the helm.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Seen the first episode now. Fascinating stuff, some of it not in a good way. I wasn’t going to show it to kids due to language anyway, I can’t believe that is a worldwide motivational dressing room tool outside the UK. But with the Foster story especially, no way is this now age appropriate.

Pleasingly, when Lyle suggested in voiceover that he didn’t think he would be here (on Planet Earth was my interpretation) if Kompany hadn’t told the squad he was struggling, that seemed to be a more recent recording, he was referring to Forest away in the distant past tense. But it did imply Lyle is in a better place now which is a really pleasing thing. I was surprised though by how bad he said he was in that July - October 2023 period when on the pitch he looked great. I feel uncomfortable though about two things - that his warts and all story was aired in this way on TV, and that VK brought it up in the dressing room at Forest when the squad were unaware. It also sounded like double standards from Vincent to excuse the red card behaviour in front of the squad because of the mental health, not sure that was the right way to do that, came across a bit naive.

On wider unrelated observations:

A few of the owners don’t seem my type, to put it mildly, but do seem experienced and sceptical of Pace’s decisions (there appear to be more senior stakeholders in this who show up at crucial times). The focus on young players is one, the adoration of Kompany is another. I was surprised by Alan’s thin skin when the FAB took him to task on gambling sponsors - it was a fair point, as was his.

The final thing I noted was how gutted Charlie Taylor was back in the autumn and how he didn’t want to leave. Something Vincent Teflon tried to sell as a great managerial move on his part.

[Stonehouse]

Just watched the final episode for the 2nd time after watching it for the 1st time half cut and have to say after thinking the Americans didn’t know what they were doing listening to Checketts the guy seems to know what’s wrong and what’s needed .

[helmclaret]

I'll slightly disagree here that, given the number of people contributing to that board, they do have a certain plurality of opinion. Just because someone doesn't agree in the moment does not suggest ideas fall on deaf ears.

Exactly. We saw a few seconds from one board meeting. Pace might have come round to DC’s view later in that meeting or subsequent meetings.

[CoolClaret]

This is further borne out by the discussion they had with Lee Mooney about budgets and transfers. Far too much emphasis and influence in Mooney and his analytics team. For Mooney to come up with a figure of 35% which represents our chances of staying up based on our budget and for them to be seemingly hanging on to this figure like it’s gospel just showed to me how far we have lost the plot.

If you would have presented to investors that spending the best part of £200m in 2 years on new players but this would only give you a 1 in 3 chance of staying up they would have laughed you out of town. So why would they give any credibility to this figure in January 2024 when we are already virtually relegated. It felt like somebody who had played a massive role in spending a fortune on players not good enough all of a sudden finding excuses to say it was never going to be enough money anyway. If that was case then you may aswell spend £10m and we still get relegated.

I agree. Mooney needs reining in - he has all the makings of someone passionate and an expert in their respective field (scouting with data analysis in this instance), but because of that, he's prone to his own biases. He seems overly reliant on analytics, jumping too quickly to conclusions based solely on the numbers.

This reiterates a feeling I've had for a while and one I've commented on various threads - we need proper 'football men' at the club. We need individuals with longstanding experience in the game who can challenge these points and narratives without them being taken as gospel by a (relatively) inexperienced and at times naive board.

[NewClaret]

I think you are assuming that Pace will take note and act on what Checketts said. His only response was to tell Checketts that the policy will work. Where does it show those making decisions have realised their mistakes?

I’ll watch it back but my recollection was that Pace was fairly silent. Almost a looking at shoes moment. It was actually the silence and general lack of objection to what he said that I took as an acknowledgment that he was right (or had a valid point).

Certainly Matt Williams couldn’t come up with a coherent answer and he’s clearly an intelligent and impressive guy.

I also think the appointment of Parker is very telling that Pace is learning from his mistakes. We all know I wanted RVN (Knutsen, actually) but Parker is there or thereabouts the least glamorous of all the candidates. A very functional reputation, no social media presence, etc. Everyone was saying Pace wanted a name but he didn’t take that route when he could’ve had Lampard or RVN.

Secondly, he’s deliberately changed the structure to a Head Coach role to avoid the control and entourage that VK had.

Those two actions tell me he’s already learning from his mistakes.

What he does this transfer window, and any future ones if we go up, will determine probably be better barometers though.

[IanMcL]

'Later on, while in conversation with director Stuart Hunt during the opening throes of the season, Williams provided a comment that foreshadowed much of Burnley’s problems: “it’s not goals we need, it’s experience. We need men.'

From Burnley Express article, reviewing the progress.

Mr Williams (and the rest of us) was (were) spot on!

[IanMcL]

That Director Dave Checketts seems to understand too.

[clarethomer]

The Dave Checketts/Alan Pace interaction was so brief, none of us can say whether the point made was understood, disagreed with or even what either party has taken from it.

It's a typical business meeting where individuals will make their point. Thats it. Nothing gets agreed/disagreed in the interaction but it's intended as a point of reflection for each other and the wider group. This probably will have seen further discussions take place afterwards amongst the directors.

The interaction was simply one director saying we need to consider this.. and another saying they felt the strategy was the right thing. There is nothing more to it from what I can say.

There is probably an element of confirmation bias and sunk cost fallacy playing into the thinking of both parties and the directors. This kind of debate is healthy and good.

It's pleasing to see these discussions taking place because from what you would believe on here at times, there appears to be genuine discussions about what is right for the club and the direction.

They are learning for sure but they are running it like a FTSE100 size corporate business.

[CFS]

I might be wrong but many on here when signing VK out the video up of him on YouTube ranting in the changing room at Anderlecht if I'm right and we're getting all excited. Now he's done it here there's a meltdown. By the end of the summer window last season we knew we were down just by the age of the squad being too young. He's top notch he would y get the Bayern job otherwise. We were lucky to have him.

[morninbob]

Thank you. Did you view the video back after you recorded it? It repeats every few seconds and then reverts and repeats.

I watched it on my laptop using VLC player, didn't skip a beat.

[Casper2]

I’ll watch it back but my recollection was that Pace was fairly silent. Almost a looking at shoes moment. It was actually the silence and general lack of objection to what he said that I took as an acknowledgment that he was right (or had a valid point).

Certainly Matt Williams couldn’t come up with a coherent answer and he’s clearly an intelligent and impressive guy.

I also think the appointment of Parker is very telling that Pace is learning from his mistakes. We all know I wanted RVN (Knutsen, actually) but Parker is there or thereabouts the least glamorous of all the candidates. A very functional reputation, no social media presence, etc. Everyone was saying Pace wanted a name but he didn’t take that route when he could’ve had Lampard or RVN.

Secondly, he’s deliberately changed the structure to a Head Coach role to avoid the control and entourage that VK had.

Those two actions tell me he’s already learning from his mistakes.

What he does this transfer window, and any future ones if we go up, will determine probably be better barometers though.

Pace wanted RVN , he decided to go to Man U instead.

[Row x]

Pace wanted RVN , he decided to go to Man U instead.

I never heard him say that

[KlyBfc]

I’m Having just finished it my initial thoughts are.

Why was it only one person (the lady, I didn’t catch her name or role) that realised why the atmosphere was so bad - they’d decimated our title winning side and were failing to put up a fight at home.

Alan Pace was completely infatuated by VK wasn’t he. The way he speaks to him, looks at him and the close to tears when he talks to the church about him leaving. He also struggles with anything which isn’t in line with how he thinks.

VK got the JBG drsssing down badly wrong. No issue with him initially showing his displeasure with JBG attitude but he lost control and I think the respect of the core group (Cork, Brownhill, JBG). They come over the JBG and the way they look at VK tells a lot.

Mooney - huge reservations about his influence and his credentials to hold such a position.

Russell Ball - hmmmm. Not sure about this individual at all.

The changing room - clearly fractured. Players not at ease with each other to call each other out and listen properly, no heirachy within it (nobody taken Barnes role on).
Some of the young lads often looked disinterested.

Nothing we didn’t really know, and all very obvious. Just hope they’ve learnt themselves.

[Jakubclaret]

I watched it on my laptop using VLC player, didn't skip a beat.

It does but it sorts itself out after about 30mins it's an annoyance but can't complain about a freebie link. Thanks.

[NewClaret]

Pace wanted RVN , he decided to go to Man U instead.

I don’t think that’s true at all. In fact, I’m pretty sure he was the guy they all said “it’s a no from me” about.

I was told RVN dropped out of the process pretty early in timing terms and that he had a terrible interview.

I was told that before he was linked strongly to us and before all the noise that he was a serious candidate. So it directly conflicted with media reports at the time, and I’ve said a few times I’d have been very happy with RVN so I was hoping the media were right and I was wrong, but so it turned out to be.

I was later told he wanted too much control over back room staff, signings, etc which they weren’t prepared to give a Head Coach - before Parker was announced as exactly that.

As with all second hand info, you can’t be certain it’s true but it turned out to be and all ties in.

[ClaretTony]

I’ll watch it back but my recollection was that Pace was fairly silent.

He says, relating to the way we are doing things: "I do believe it can work, it absolutely can work." That's not silent.

[blatherwickstattoos]

Lyle foster is captain material. Absolutely brilliant the way he cares and voices it. To say he’s only 23 /24 too. He’s going to be massive for us this season