Mission to Burnley 2

[NewClaret]

Haven't seen it yet . I have Now TV but is says it is On Demand for a week or so. I guess it will come on shortly or I'll have a faff and find it. Sounds very entertaining.

The problem when you leverage a club with some much debt is you start to make bad decisions because the consequences of failure are so high.

I was in Lytham the other weekend and a car had gone onto the edge of the sea with a trailer to pick up a yacht . Of course, they got stuck in the infamous Lytham sands with an incoming tide. As they inched back the tide was catching up with them so in desperation they started to drive into the sea to get a bit of a run at the beach. It got more and more desperate as the sea just kept rolling in. Checked out the coastguards facebook page after we got home and sure enough there it was up to it's windows in sea water.

For some reason this thread kind of reminded me of it. But then again as NewClaret likes to remind me I am cup half empty...!

Agree on your leverage point. Someone said somewhere that they’d like to hear from Alan on the strategy to reduce debt and I agree with that. I think all fans would feel more comfortable about him & his ownership if they felt there was a plan to address it.

Re: the car in Lytham. That’s quite hilarious. Being a glass half empty guy I bet you were willing it to sink weren’t you? Imagine how much trouble he was in when he got home and had to tell his wufe the car was a boat

In relation to how this might be a BFC analogy, it’s worth noting that Pace said “we’re not going to do anything that will put the future of the club at risk” (this was at a January board meeting in respect to the transfer business). My first thoughts were “like a leveraged buy out for instance”? What we don’t know is how much debt there is any more but I’m
confident our on field assets outweigh our liabilities for now. It’s when that changes that the tide comes in.

FWIW, in relation to my earlier debate with Tony, I think that’s exactly why Pace favours the young players with appreciating values - one might call it a tidal barrier!

[rob63]

Pace comes across as a giggling fanboy and VK as the football version of David Brent.

Cheers for that............that's something I can't unsee now!!

[Ric_C]

Just been mentioning the Kompany rant on Talk Sport

Which got me thinking. If VK had stayed and JBG had left (which was the original plan), how would we be all thinking about this?

[Since62]

Of everyone involved only Checketts seemed to understand what was required.
Hopefully AP has learnt a lesson and SP can sort out the mess left behind by VK.
We will have a little better understanding by 10.00pm tonight.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Just been mentioning the Kompany rant on Talk Sport

Which got me thinking. If VK had stayed and JBG had left (which was the original plan), how would we be all thinking about this?

I’d be worried. Because even if you subscribe to the idea that footballers need treating like toddlers to get top performance, there is an art to dealing with your experienced “leadership group”. What you don’t do is lay them out to dry in front of the wider squad.

Feels in hindsight like he was out of his depth and didn’t know how to manage a team regularly losing, having never had to do it nor had he played in one since he was very young. Doesn’t mean he will fail at Munich, but means he would have failed again with us.

[claretskeith]

Worried is certainly not something I would be. A proven manager who got us promoted with 101 points. I'd be confident.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Worried is certainly not something I would be. A proven manager who got us promoted with 101 points. I'd be confident.

I see that but it implied to me he had lost parts of the dressing room, and it was his experienced part. I reckon he would have had a job on lifting their heads again. You may be right but we will never know. Now lets go for 101 points again with a new manager but I’d be happy with 88.

[jtv]

I haven't gone through the whole thread. Can someone post links to the episodes please? UTC

[PremierLeagueClass]

Brilliant from Cullen challenging Fofana.

[Superjohnnyfrancis]

I’d be worried. Because even if you subscribe to the idea that footballers need treating like toddlers to get top performance, there is an art to dealing with your experienced “leadership group”. What you don’t do is lay them out to dry in front of the wider squad.

Feels in hindsight like he was out of his depth and didn’t know how to manage a team regularly losing, having never had to do it nor had he played in one since he was very young. Doesn’t mean he will fail at Munich, but means he would have failed again with us.

When I heard about it earlier my respect for Kompany increased. Its about time sometime dug him out for spending half his time in the treatment room. Only thing Kompany did right last season.

[NewClaret]

I haven't gone through the whole thread. Can someone post links to the episodes please? UTC

Don’t exist, I don’t think.

[Conroy92]

After now seeing the clip of Kompany and JBG, I'm torn between minds.

If a manger thinks shouting at someone and in some instances gets the best out of them, fair enough. It's not for me to judge and there are different styles to management.

However what you see there, is a manger who has lost his head. That isn't acceptable. If that had been a more vocal player fists would have been flying.
It is not JBG that is out of control. It is the manager. And I wonder how many lost respect for him after that.

At one point he is quite clearly antagonising and goading Gudmundsson with the big boy comments and all that pathetic childish nonsense.

All it is, is a failing manager, looking for someone to blame. And turning into a big baby when things don't go his way.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

You would have thought Bellamy or one of the coaching staff would have stepped in during his JBG rant to tell him to go and take a minute. There was nothing constructive about it!

[TsarBomba]

I’d be worried. Because even if you subscribe to the idea that footballers need treating like toddlers to get top performance, there is an art to dealing with your experienced “leadership group”. What you don’t do is lay them out to dry in front of the wider squad.

Feels in hindsight like he was out of his depth and didn’t know how to manage a team regularly losing, having never had to do it nor had he played in one since he was very young. Doesn’t mean he will fail at Munich, but means he would have failed again with us.

Completely agree re not knowing how to manage a team regularly losing and being out of his depth.

You see clips of Guardiola raise his voice and become animated with players, but he’s always in control and there’s an instructional element to what he is saying. The anger is there and used to get the point across a little more forcefully, because chances are it didn’t get through the first time.

The clip today shows VK out of control, confrontational even. It’s embarrassing.

I was on the fence re VK staying, but the more I see, hear and read im glad he’s gone.

[jtv]

Don’t exist, I don’t think.

[JimmyRobbo]

Not really trying to defend VK. Hard to defend some of his behaviour (not all from M2B2).

Have you ever been under that much pressure in charge of 30 blokes? The whole world watching every mistake? Again and again?

If you have a lot of fight and frustration inside you, you make mistakes. You say things which are embarrassing in the gold light of day. You sometimes do talk rubbish and act in a way which undermines all your image of calmness.

Very hard to admit a mistake and retrieve a situation.

[exilecanada]

After now seeing the clip of Kompany and JBG, I'm torn between minds.

If a manger thinks shouting at someone and in some instances gets the best out of them, fair enough. It's not for me to judge and there are different styles to management.

However what you see there, is a manger who has lost his head. That isn't acceptable. If that had been a more vocal player fists would have been flying.
It is not JBG that is out of control. It is the manager. And I wonder how many lost respect for him after that.

At one point he is quite clearly antagonising and goading Gudmundsson with the big boy comments and all that pathetic childish nonsense.

All it is, is a failing manager, looking for someone to blame. And turning into a big baby when things don't go his way.

https://x.com/secondtierpod/status/1822932103379464543

[CoolClaret]

All it is, is a failing manager, looking for someone to blame. And turning into a big baby when things don't go his way.

Spot on - VK has a bad ego problem and I think displays telltale signs of a textbook narcissist.

How could the league position possibly be the wonderful VKs fault? It's not his fault the players can't execute his grandiose plan after all...

[CrosspoolClarets]

Completely agree re not knowing how to manage a team regularly losing and being out of his depth.

You see clips of Guardiola raise his voice and become animated with players, but he’s always in control and there’s an instructional element to what he is saying. The anger is there and used to get the point across a little more forcefully, because chances are it didn’t get through the first time.

The clip today shows VK out of control, confrontational even. It’s embarrassing.

I was on the fence re VK staying, but the more I see, hear and read im glad he’s gone.

I was not even on the fence, I was very pro Kompany. But agree with you now. To get £10m was a dream. I’m trying hard to separate out the manager I hoped he was (in the league above) and the manager (and opportunistic journeyman) he turned out to be.

He won’t be at Munich long, I doubt he will last a season.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Completely agree re not knowing how to manage a team regularly losing and being out of his depth.

You see clips of Guardiola raise his voice and become animated with players, but he’s always in control and there’s an instructional element to what he is saying. The anger is there and used to get the point across a little more forcefully, because chances are it didn’t get through the first time.

The clip today shows VK out of control, confrontational even. It’s embarrassing.

I was on the fence re VK staying, but the more I see, hear and read im glad he’s gone.

EDIT - post was so good I made it twice

[fatboy47]

A lot being read into half a minutes training ground bitching.

Nobody has a scooby about why that situation bubbled up..

[morninbob]

I haven't gone through the whole thread. Can someone post links to the episodes please? UTC

First episode is a couple of pages back.

[jtv]

First episode is a couple of pages back.

It keeps on going back and restarting

[morninbob]

It keeps on going back and restarting

Use VLC player.

[Taffy on the wing]

Kompany comes across as a bullying Bell-end.....well shut of him.

[warksclaret]

Completely agree re not knowing how to manage a team regularly losing and being out of his depth.

You see clips of Guardiola raise his voice and become animated with players, but he’s always in control and there’s an instructional element to what he is saying. The anger is there and used to get the point across a little more forcefully, because chances are it didn’t get through the first time.

The clip today shows VK out of control, confrontational even. It’s embarrassing.

I was on the fence re VK staying, but the more I see, hear and read im glad he’s gone.

Looking at the body language of the players closest to what was going on, says to me they were not impressed at all. Looks like management by fear.If nothing else, morale will be noticeably higher tonight in that dressing room. Brings back memories of that blasting VK gave the Anderlecht team when he was their manager. Just wondering how he will cope if Bayern go through a slight blip of form

[Rileybobs]

Kompany is very considered in interviews and also in his conversations with Pace, he comes across very insightful and intelligent. However, the dressing room team talks featured in the doc, be they pre-match, half-time or post-match didn’t have an ounce of motivation. Shouting and swearing every time his team lost and not shouldering any responsibility himself. It was so repetitive and whilst I’m in no way offended by bad language, if you drop the F-bomb every other word it completely loses its impact. It’s also such fake way to show passion.

The post-match dressing downs were just so repetitive and it’s no wonder they didn’t sink in. Maybe trying something different like having an open discussion amongst the players would have been helpful.

He really didn’t come across in any way as a good manager of people.

[FeedTheArf]

After now seeing the clip of Kompany and JBG, I'm torn between minds.

If a manger thinks shouting at someone and in some instances gets the best out of them, fair enough. It's not for me to judge and there are different styles to management.

However what you see there, is a manger who has lost his head. That isn't acceptable. If that had been a more vocal player fists would have been flying.
It is not JBG that is out of control. It is the manager. And I wonder how many lost respect for him after that.

At one point he is quite clearly antagonising and goading Gudmundsson with the big boy comments and all that pathetic childish nonsense.

All it is, is a failing manager, looking for someone to blame. And turning into a big baby when things don't go his way.

Pathetic from Kompany. JBG would’ve been well within his rights to tell him to F off.

You got something to share with the team big boy? Absolute man child.

[Rileybobs]

Who shouts ‘they know’ to Kompany when he tells JBG it’s life or death at the end of his public dressing down? Sounds like Bellamy.

[boyyanno]

A lot being read into half a minutes training ground bitching.

Nobody has a scooby about why that situation bubbled up..

I think it actually gives a decent insight.

For example Kompany is challenging Gudmundsson for "moaning". Gudmundsson refutes this- which Kompany accepts- he then shifts to "body language". Its subtle but its pretty easy to see that the issue isn't Gudmundsson here, he wasn't even guilty of what Kompany initially called him out for.

[helmclaret]

The same posters that are complaining about Kompany’s training ground antics are Stan fan boys!

[Jakubclaret]

The same posters that are complaining about Kompany’s training ground antics are Stan fan boys!

The same posters also never had a problem when he was here & when it got mentioned about the effing & jeffing on the back of season 1 nobody was really vocal about it it got passed off as some sort of methodical motivational masterstroke & not a foul mouthed man clearly losing the plot.

[Darnhill Claret]

Everyone knew Stan and his reputation.
Kompany is still building his.

[helmclaret]

So it was ok for Stan to behave on the training field and on the bus like he did?

[IanMcL]

I think it actually gives a decent insight.

For example Kompany is challenging Gudmundsson for "moaning". Gudmundsson refutes this- which Kompany accepts- he then shifts to "body language". Its subtle but its pretty easy to see that the issue isn't Gudmundsson here, he wasn't even guilty of what Kompany initially called him out for.

Just watched that and Kompany has clearly hot personal issues he wants to let out. Chooses Gudmundsson for some reason and raves like a lunatic.

The crazy thing is that he talks of man management in the very next clip!

Vincent....you are clueless in that department, if you think that is acceptable. It served no purpose other than a VK breakdown.

Players all got away ASAP. Very, very poor. No wonder we were relegated. Not sure what Mr Ks long hours actually did, other than keep him away from family.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

JGB is a Dyche signing. A manager that put great value on attitude and character. I really doubt that JGB would have been consistently a problem to any manager. The rant looks Stanesque and is embarrassing for Kompany.

[blatherwickstattoos]

Stan ternant was 1000000 times more aggressive than that but is held In such a high regard still by folks on here.

[helmclaret]

I’m a big fan of Stan, but when Glenn Little and others talk about him getting physical with them and hitting them over the head with glass bottles, VK came nowhere close to this kind of behaviour.

It’s like when fans say they don’t feel connected ‘to this group of player and all these foreigners coming in.’ I’m pretty sure they are feeling connected tonight.

[IanMcL]

Much has changed since the days when Stan type managers were the norm.

VK swearing is the most pathetic thing I have seen in years. Swearing is supposed to mean something. An exception to add a burst of something.

VK just forgets his cool brainpower and repeats F many times.
Useless manager of men, if that is his modus operandi.

[Wembley09]

Much has changed since the days when Stan type managers were the norm.

VK swearing is the most pathetic thing I have seen in years. Swearing is supposed to mean something. An exception to add a burst of something.

VK just forgets his cool brainpower and repeats F many times.
Useless manager of men, if that is his modus operandi.

Shame how football has changed and yeah you're right, cringe watching Kompany F'ing this and that. So disingenuous. Stan and Sam were men you didn't f**k with, you didn't need any swearing to scare you with them.


I remember from Paytons account of the days when Stan told his players to stay in at the weekend (league one level) during the time when even PL players were out on the drink every weekend.

He then actually went banging on each players door in the evening the weekend after he told them, and if they didn't answer he placed them on the transfer list.

[Steddyman]

If Pace says it absolutely can work, that's how we will do it no matter what Checketts might say.

I'm not so sure that is how it works in business.

In a regular company the CEO has to answer to and please his investors or shareholders, they own the ultimate power, and not him.

[mdd2]

After now seeing the clip of Kompany and JBG, I'm torn between minds.

If a manger thinks shouting at someone and in some instances gets the best out of them, fair enough. It's not for me to judge and there are different styles to management.

However what you see there, is a manger who has lost his head. That isn't acceptable. If that had been a more vocal player fists would have been flying.
It is not JBG that is out of control. It is the manager. And I wonder how many lost respect for him after that.

At one point he is quite clearly antagonising and goading Gudmundsson with the big boy comments and all that pathetic childish nonsense.

All it is, is a failing manager, looking for someone to blame. And turning into a big baby when things don't go his way.

Well that is the icing on a cake with the message how not to manage.
JBG signed in 2016 and was at the time of that outburst one of our senior pros. If he was being disruptive to a training session a good manager takes JBG off the pitch puts CB in charge of training, goes into his office with JBG, sits him down and puts his side of things on the table for JBG to respond and admonishes as he seems appropriate. All that rant did was make sure JBG was off at the end of this season and the rest of the squad became less respectful of their manager who lets not forget had a whole load of young immature adults under his tutelage.
Shame on you VK shame on you. Hope BM dont watch that episode. Maybe the MBA doesnt include man management.

[Clive 1960]

Just been mentioning the Kompany rant on Talk Sport

Which got me thinking. If VK had stayed and JBG had left (which was the original plan), how would we be all thinking about this?

like i said in other post i think it was disgusting in front of the chairman and in the next one to be aired i have heard that Pace calls the fans for leaving early in games and i believe it's on next Friday...

[ClaretPete001]

Agree on your leverage point. Someone said somewhere that they’d like to hear from Alan on the strategy to reduce debt and I agree with that. I think all fans would feel more comfortable about him & his ownership if they felt there was a plan to address it.

Re: the car in Lytham. That’s quite hilarious. Being a glass half empty guy I bet you were willing it to sink weren’t you? Imagine how much trouble he was in when he got home and had to tell his wufe the car was a boat

In relation to how this might be a BFC analogy, it’s worth noting that Pace said “we’re not going to do anything that will put the future of the club at risk” (this was at a January board meeting in respect to the transfer business). My first thoughts were “like a leveraged buy out for instance”? What we don’t know is how much debt there is any more but I’m
confident our on field assets outweigh our liabilities for now. It’s when that changes that the tide comes in.

FWIW, in relation to my earlier debate with Tony, I think that’s exactly why Pace favours the young players with appreciating values - one might call it a tidal barrier!

Agreed, I don't think Alan Pace will comment on reducing the debt because I don't think he has one other than PL.

I think we have some good players and the issue last year was a manager problem but I'm a broken record on that one.

Ha the thing is there was quite a few watching and I was leaning on a sign saying 'Beware Sinking Sand'. No one went to help. On the one hand it would have meant getting covered in sand and sea water and on the other hand I think there was a general consensus of 'Darwinian Law' in action.

Harsh really, There you are with a car and a trailer and about a gerziliion signs saying 'Sinking Sands' and you just ignore them and drive to the edge of a fast incoming sea..! I guess it could happen to anyone of us.

Anyway when we got to the less Darwinian side of Lancashire we checked out the coastguards Facebook page and lo and behold.....! To be fair, I better be careful what I say it might be someone on here we do have a lot of fans from Bacup....! And let's be honest, Darwin hasn't reached Bacup yet.

https://www.facebook.com/LythamStAnnesE ... 082878350/

[Clive 1960]

Everyone knew Stan and his reputation.
Kompany is still building his.

Stan got away with things you wouldn't today...

[ArmchairDetective]

Only just seen the Kompany JBG clip. Not seen the rest of the documentary yet. But if I was JBG I'd probably be out the door after that. For how well VK manages to come across in the media, that clip is shocking. Total lack of respect and control. If I'm JBG's mate I lose respect for VK in that moment too.

Might be wrong but I can't see Scotty P losing it quite like that.

[Fretters]

Well that is the icing on a cake with the message how not to manage.
JBG signed in 2016 and was at the time of that outburst one of our senior pros. If he was being disruptive to a training session a good manager takes JBG off the pitch puts CB in charge of training, goes into his office with JBG, sits him down and puts his side of things on the table for JBG to respond and admonishes as he seems appropriate. All that rant did was make sure JBG was off at the end of this season and the rest of the squad became less respectful of their manager who lets not forget had a whole load of young immature adults under his tutelage.
Shame on you VK shame on you. Hope BM dont watch that episode. Maybe the MBA doesnt include man management.

Absolutely this. I run a business and it's vital that you keep your cool and speak to staff in private. It may become heated in there, but the aim should be that nobody leaves the room emotional and you're on the same page, where possible. Never air your issues in front of other staff or any respect the staff member in question had for you will evaporate completely.

[mdd2]

Absolutely this. I run a business and it's vital that you keep your cool and speak to staff in private. It may become heated in there, but the aim should be that nobody leaves the room emotional and you're on the same page, where possible. Never air your issues in front of other staff or any respect the staff member in question had for you will evaporate completely.

Seems pretty clear why JBG left why he came back and why we agreed to his return.

[Fretters]

I thought it at the time, but it bothered me that he referred to Foster as our best player. No slight on Foster, and it could well be true, but you'd never catch Dyche referring to one player like that, and I don't think Parker would either. That doesn't exactly 'foster' a group mentality.

[NewClaret]

I'm not so sure that is how it works in business.

In a regular company the CEO has to answer to and please his investors or shareholders, they own the ultimate power, and not him.

I agree. I think it's being underplayed and overlooked quite how rare it is for a CEO/Chairman to be challenged so openly in a Boardroom setting. To the point I would ask if it were 'for the cameras'.

Pace will simply have to reflect and act on that feedback, which I would say he has started to do already with Parker and the Head Coach change. That does not mean he will abandon his strategy but he will adapt it, I'm sure.