Mission to Burnley 2

[NewClaret]

I thought it at the time, but it bothered me that he referred to Foster as our best player. No slight on Foster, and it could well be true, but you'd never catch Dyche referring to one player like that, and I don't think Parker would either. That doesn't exactly 'foster' a group mentality.

Noticed that also and agree it was not a good thing to say. 'One of our best' was what he needed to say to make that point.

[jedi_master]

Any rumblings of a Season 3? I suspect it would be a more enjoyable (if less interesting) watch than 2!?

[Bullabill]

Have you ever been under that much pressure in charge of 30 blokes? The whole world watching every mistake? Again and again?

I haven't, but neither have I been paid as much as VK was. For the money, he should have done better.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

Not moved on from episode two yet. The portrayal of the drum debacle and lack of atmosphere is annoying. There was very little animosity shown to the team in reality. The vast majority of supporters did not boo. Those that did, only did so after absolute **** performances. Most of us have watched Dyche teams and it was clear that the team would not achieve anything. It was clear that Vinny was not for changing fundamentally. By Christmas it was clear that we would be relegated. Why the **** would we cheer a team that is clearly uncompetitive?

[Fretters]

Finished the series today. Near the end Kompany actually says he thinks Pace made a good choice when he appointed him and he will do again.

He certainly doesn't lack self confidence, despite the worst season in our history.

[JimmyRobbo]

I haven't, but neither have I been paid as much as VK was. For the money, he should have done better.

Money is irrelevant.

Imperfections happen. Losing grinds on everyone. This board is a great example!

I didn't want him to leave. I don't care that he did. I don't pine after him. I don't want him back.

He was out of order. It won't be the only time he was, either, but all managers make a stand and get it wrong. Even the greats, like Fergie.

[ecc]

Just seen a clip posted on YT.

We know managers swear. I doubt very much whether there's one manager who doesn't swear or go crazy.

There was a huge media love-in with VK which is the way the media operate. The national media didn't give a flying one about Plymouth Argyle until Rooney rocked up.

Difficult to imagine anyone losing it with JBG but then I don't know what JBG is like to work with every day. It looks like this wasn't an isolated incident given JBG's leaving/returning.

It's finished now. New era.

[Clarets4me]

Mrs " Clarets4me " has just sat down to watch the downloaded series. One of the future episodes has a strapline along the lines of " following a series of heavy defeats, the Chairman looks for an innovative way to lift the supporters ... " With her wonderful north-country ability to get to the point, she mutters " How about giving that shell-shocked kid in goal a break ? " ...

I have politely declined her invitation to watch it with her, having followed last season closely, I have no desire to re-visit it !

[Blondeclaret]

I agree. Mooney needs reining in - he has all the makings of someone passionate and an expert in their respective field (scouting with data analysis in this instance), but because of that, he's prone to his own biases. He seems overly reliant on analytics, jumping too quickly to conclusions based solely on the numbers.

This reiterates a feeling I've had for a while and one I've commented on various threads - we need proper 'football men' at the club. We need individuals with longstanding experience in the game who can challenge these points and narratives without them being taken as gospel by a (relatively) inexperienced and at times naive board.

I too was really surprised how much control & influence he seemed to have considering he’s only an analyst! What was the comment “ we’ve got 35% chance of staying up with our budget”? Love to know where he gets those stats from. As regards having football people in the club well we had them the current board made a decision to get rid of them all and just keep Mooney(mud analytics) and a bunch of young analysts who sit behind laptops all day.

[Blondeclaret]

That bit stood out for me. Claimed to be monitoring 300,000 players but somehow didn't manage to find a viable left back to sign.

There's a whole industry that's grown around what is essentially still a fairly simple game

Yes I thought that quite amazing really 300,000 players yet couldn’t find a left back and look what we ended up buying for £120 million!!

[Leisure]

Yes I thought that quite amazing really 300,000 players yet couldn’t find a left back and look what we ended up buying for £120 million!!

Agree we made some poor buys but we also made some very good ones.

[steve1264b]

i can't watch it, last season was to traumatic!!

[blatherwickstattoos]

i can't watch it, last season was to traumatic!!

It’s actually better than the first series in terms of drama and footage they’ve got. A good insight to the dressing room

[clarethomer]

I’m not quite getting the Mooney references.

Surely his role as an analyst is to explain to the decision makers what his analysis is telling him?

Isn’t that what we pay him for?

[Darnhill Claret]

I don't understand why there are always so many staff in the dressing room shots. Seems to be 20+, that's without the film crew.

[Row Z]

I too was really surprised how much control & influence he seemed to have considering he’s only an analyst! What was the comment “ we’ve got 35% chance of staying up with our budget”? Love to know where he gets those stats from. As regards having football people in the club well we had them the current board made a decision to get rid of them all and just keep Mooney(mud analytics) and a bunch of young analysts who sit behind laptops all day.

The thing that riled me was the comparison of Formula 1 to Formula 2, completely ignoring the last 7 years where we were competitive with the “Formula 1” clubs.. I get it’s a tough league, but making out it’s impossible to be competitive despite Dyche doing so just to me suggested he was covering his arse.

A quick Google search suggests he’s the founder of MUD analytics and is a consultant into the club… is that the same company that VK was also a director of?

[Dodobdobodobo]

Anyone got it on iptv?

[CrosspoolClarets]

Episode 2 was interesting though less dramatic.

Drumgate was a few people scared stiff of telling others they didn’t know what they were talking about.

Talking of which, by October it was clear none of the squad had the nerve to tell Kompany anything. Heads were down, he was constantly yelling at them, lecturing them, they all looked naffed off with him. Never once did I see a “discussion”.

The other interesting one was Mooney. Talking nonsense it seemed to me. Referring to the top club’s players he implied they couldn’t be stopped, it was a law of physics, a difference in size, speed, thought etc.

If so, under Dyche, how did we stop them so often?

It reminded me of episode 1, something I forgot to post, I noticed on his whiteboard tactics for the Man City game Kompany had our players as a 3 at the back, with an inverted full back in midfield. The defenders were facing 3 attackers, we all know who those were. Seemed like total madness. That is NOT how you stop those elite players. The gaps were massive. Very naive.

[Sutton-Claret]

I'm half way through the last episode - so far its much better than the 1st series.

[gtclaret]

Statistics are only a factor, nothing more.It takes a football man to judge is a player can perform at the higher level.If you look at Monday nights game for example,I'm sure the statistics look impressive.In my opinion, almost every premier league team would have easily beaten us

[bfcjg]

Regarding the discussions on the atmosphere, I'd have just loved it if one of the numerous staff had the balls to say " we get paid to put on this shitshow, those poor sods have to pay to watch it, and let's face it guys it's bl00dy awful " that said it would have been edited out.

[Poulton-le-Claret]

Regarding the discussions on the atmosphere, I'd have just loved it if one of the numerous staff had the balls to say " we get paid to put on this shitshow, those poor sods have to pay to watch it, and let's face it guys it's bl00dy awful " that said it would have been edited out.

Yep very true, or someone just saying 'be grateful for the lack of noise, fans at most clubs would have turned on the team, manager and owners by now and the place would be really toxic.'

[hoskinsgoalatswansea]

Has anyone got download links to all 4 episodes?

[Hipper]

Not really trying to defend VK. Hard to defend some of his behaviour (not all from M2B2).

Have you ever been under that much pressure in charge of 30 blokes? The whole world watching every mistake? Again and again?

If you have a lot of fight and frustration inside you, you make mistakes. You say things which are embarrassing in the gold light of day. You sometimes do talk rubbish and act in a way which undermines all your image of calmness.

Very hard to admit a mistake and retrieve a situation.

I agree about the pressure being in charge. Not quite the same level but I was put in charge of seven people maintaining school grounds - I was a working supervisor. I never asked for or wanted the job, I was just given it. Neither had I any training for it. Strangely I didn't lose my temper with my working colleagues (or thank goodness with our clients ranging from Head Teachers and Estate Managers etc.. I mostly lost it with my boss! I learned from it though, not that I wanted to do it again.

The difference of course was that I knew what we had to do and knew how to do it. It was just a question of resources to do the job. In VK's situation it isn't only that but a question of philosophy - does he know what he is doing? Further there is so much emotion attached to his work. You have to have faith in him otherwise it won't work. Even if you do have faith it still may not work - as in this case it was clear that the players were not good enough to do what he asked.

Frankly it was one great experiment that that failed and whilst I'm sure VK will have learned from this it has cost the club and maybe the players. In other words it was more about VK then our beloved Burnley and unfortunately the Burnley club management - Pace and Co - were intoxicated by it. The problem is we can't blame Pace either as who wouldn't have believed after VK's first season. In the end it looks like there was no-one to pull VK aside and tell him a few home truths. Surely that was what the assistant manager's post is for?

[JimmyRobbo]

I agree about the pressure being in charge. Not quite the same level but I was put in charge of seven people maintaining school grounds - I was a working supervisor. I never asked for or wanted the job, I was just given it. Neither had I any training for it. Strangely I didn't lose my temper with my working colleagues (or thank goodness with our clients ranging from Head Teachers and Estate Managers etc.. I mostly lost it with my boss! I learned from it though, not that I wanted to do it again.

The difference of course was that I knew what we had to do and knew how to do it. It was just a question of resources to do the job. In VK's situation it isn't only that but a question of philosophy - does he know what he is doing? Further there is so much emotion attached to his work. You have to have faith in him otherwise it won't work. Even if you do have faith it still may not work - as in this case it was clear that the players were not good enough to do what he asked.

Frankly it was one great experiment that that failed and whilst I'm sure VK will have learned from this it has cost the club and maybe the players. In other words it was more about VK then our beloved Burnley and unfortunately the Burnley club management - Pace and Co - were intoxicated by it. The problem is we can't blame Pace either as who wouldn't have believed after VK's first season. In the end it looks like there was no-one to pull VK aside and tell him a few home truths. Surely that was what the assistant manager's post is for?

A thoroughly level-headed post.

I've run a few teams with low stress and not (I think) lost the plot because my livelihood didn't count on it. I have always been lucky to have sounding boards whom I trusted to do exactly what you suggest your right-hand man should be there for. (VK selected him. He should have been able to trust him).

Unfotunately, it ended up with Ground Hog Days of poor results and predictable performances. I know professional people in that predicament who have admitted that they just end up making mistakes and getting into a bad place where it gets harder and harder to retrieve the situation. A big mate of mine who knows his football admitted that he caught himself just talking "Sh**" and it really was out of character but it is what high pressure stress does to you.

VK was out of order with JBG. Embarrassingly so. It happens. Hopefully he learned from it and we are all better off for it.

[FeedTheArf]

Agree we made some poor buys but we also made some very good ones.

Agree it’s been a mixed bag with, on balance, more hits than misses. The issue is that the misses have almost exclusively been the ones that came in for a big fee and consequently will be much harder to move on (without taking a significant hit)

[Foshiznik]

Agree it’s been a mixed bag with, on balance, more hits than misses. The issue is that the misses have almost exclusively been the ones that came in for a big fee and consequently will be much harder to move on (without taking a significant hit)

Most of those bought for big fees are still here so can get some redemption. Not sure it’s fair in all circumstances to write off players after one collectively disastrous premier league campaign.

[superdimitri]

Has anyone got download links to all 4 episodes?

I'm hoping once it comes out on Now TV in September it will get ripped.
At the moment if I'm right it's only released on Sky Sports+.

[JohnMcGreal]

Having watched 3 episodes I'm quite confident that if Kompany had been steering any other club (one that's not run by Alan Pace) into the rocks the way he was doing with us last season he would have been sacked well before the end.

Completely clueless with a squad of players who seemed to have lost any respect for him and certainly weren't buying any of the bullshit he was selling, even if the chairman was buying it in bucket loads.

We could all tell just from seeing what was on the pitch that things were not right, that there was no team spirit or belief there. It's understandable having watched what was taking place behind the scenes.

[Guller Bull]

The one thing about MTB2 that struck me more than anything is how committed AP is to the club. Yes he was infatuated with Vinny and I get that as VK was such a strong personality and pedigree. But after watching, I think most will agree that Alan Pace is 100% all in and so very much engaged.

[Since62]

Watched it all and that’s the last I ever want to see or hear of VK.

[Blondeclaret]

The thing that riled me was the comparison of Formula 1 to Formula 2, completely ignoring the last 7 years where we were competitive with the “Formula 1” clubs.. I get it’s a tough league, but making out it’s impossible to be competitive despite Dyche doing so just to me suggested he was covering his arse.

A quick Google search suggests he’s the founder of MUD analytics and is a consultant into the club… is that the same company that VK was also a director of?

Correct Mooney & Kompany set up Mud Analytics together be interesting to see how long Mooney stays with Burnley.

[Big Vinny K]

Correct Mooney & Kompany set up Mud Analytics together be interesting to see how long Mooney stays with Burnley.

I’ve ran this through my staff retention algorithm model and think there will be a 35% chance he will still be here by the end of the month.

[bfcjg]

I’ve ran this through my staff retention algorithm model and think there will be a 35% chance he will still be here by the end of the month.

Brilliant

[ClaretTony]

Episode 2 was interesting though less dramatic.

Drumgate was a few people scared stiff of telling others they didn’t know what they were talking about.

Talking of which, by October it was clear none of the squad had the nerve to tell Kompany anything. Heads were down, he was constantly yelling at them, lecturing them, they all looked naffed off with him. Never once did I see a “discussion”.

The other interesting one was Mooney. Talking nonsense it seemed to me. Referring to the top club’s players he implied they couldn’t be stopped, it was a law of physics, a difference in size, speed, thought etc.

If so, under Dyche, how did we stop them so often?

It reminded me of episode 1, something I forgot to post, I noticed on his whiteboard tactics for the Man City game Kompany had our players as a 3 at the back, with an inverted full back in midfield. The defenders were facing 3 attackers, we all know who those were. Seemed like total madness. That is NOT how you stop those elite players. The gaps were massive. Very naive.

What Drumgate told me was that the chairman is some kind of control freak. As Ball basically said, it's none negotiable because Alan says so. Worryingly we have the drum but it comes across loud and clear that only Pace calls the shots and I don't think Mission 2 makes him look very good.

Blatantly obvious that all respect for the manager had long gone, players disengaged in the dressing room which ultimately led to a fractured dressing room for which Kompany can just about take all the blame.

I don't get the power of Mooney, good football people were ditched, some after long, long service too, to allow him in to work his magic with analysis. As Dyche would always say, analysis is very much part of it but there are other aspects, none more so than checking the character of potential signings. That's how he finished with a superbly strong dressing room.

How did we stop teams under Dyche? Because he's a football man who understands football.

[Big Vinny K]

Chuck Drumgate ?
Not another new American director please

[Goliath]

What Drumgate told me was that the chairman is some kind of control freak. As Ball basically said, it's none negotiable because Alan says so. Worryingly we have the drum but it comes across loud and clear that only Pace calls the shots and I don't think Mission 2 makes him look very good.

Blatantly obvious that all respect for the manager had long gone, players disengaged in the dressing room which ultimately led to a fractured dressing room for which Kompany can just about take all the blame.

I don't get the power of Mooney, good football people were ditched, some after long, long service too, to allow him in to work his magic with analysis. As Dyche would always say, analysis is very much part of it but there are other aspects, none more so than checking the character of potential signings. That's how he finished with a superbly strong dressing room.

How did we stop teams under Dyche? Because he's a football man who understands football.

Mainly fair comments but don't understand the last line. Is Kompany not a football man?

[CrosspoolClarets]

What Drumgate told me was that the chairman is some kind of control freak. As Ball basically said, it's none negotiable because Alan says so. Worryingly we have the drum but it comes across loud and clear that only Pace calls the shots and I don't think Mission 2 makes him look very good.

Blatantly obvious that all respect for the manager had long gone, players disengaged in the dressing room which ultimately led to a fractured dressing room for which Kompany can just about take all the blame.

I don't get the power of Mooney, good football people were ditched, some after long, long service too, to allow him in to work his magic with analysis. As Dyche would always say, analysis is very much part of it but there are other aspects, none more so than checking the character of potential signings. That's how he finished with a superbly strong dressing room.

How did we stop teams under Dyche? Because he's a football man who understands football.

Largely agree although I think Pace needs some credit for trying to do the right thing, the problem being they don’t yet understand a fan base like ours. We know that the way to get atmosphere is to have higher tempo games at home, i.e. more Liverpool than City. I felt in key games our slow style let opponents get a foothold, muted the atmosphere, and nick wins or draws off us (Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Luton etc). I am hoping under Parker that will now change.

Although I criticised the clip of Mooney in that episode, he will likely factor in mentality into his data. The bit I think he missed was the value of experience and I’d be curious if that was on his analytical model. If players are all in his databank as individuals, they may look fantastic, but add experience to a group and it seems to raise every other player by 10%. So my prediction is that the assumptions underpinning the modelling were imperfect.

We have to remember Mooney was one of the chief data people at City. So he must be good, and is still a long-term football person. But I would say a few hours a week of Parker’s time should now be sitting down with a person like this and fine tuning their assumptions (I am assuming this includes analysis of opposing teams). Interesting that mid-match on Monday our staff were poring over their ipads more than I saw Kompany’s staff doing. That data element won’t go away.

[ClaretTony]

Largely agree although I think Pace needs some credit for trying to do the right thing, the problem being they don’t yet understand a fan base like ours. We know that the way to get atmosphere is to have higher tempo games at home, i.e. more Liverpool than City. I felt in key games our slow style let opponents get a foothold, muted the atmosphere, and nick wins or draws off us (Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Luton etc). I am hoping under Parker that will now change.

Although I criticised the clip of Mooney in that episode, he will likely factor in mentality into his data. The bit I think he missed was the value of experience and I’d be curious if that was on his analytical model. If players are all in his databank as individuals, they may look fantastic, but add experience to a group and it seems to raise every other player by 10%. So my prediction is that the assumptions underpinning the modelling were imperfect.

We have to remember Mooney was one of the chief data people at City. So he must be good, and is still a long-term football person. But I would say a few hours a week of Parker’s time should now be sitting down with a person like this and fine tuning their assumptions (I am assuming this includes analysis of opposing teams). Interesting that mid-match on Monday our staff were poring over their ipads more than I saw Kompany’s staff doing. That data element won’t go away.

You are right, they don’t understand the fan base and it worries me that they never will.

The analysis is rightly important now and I don’t doubt Mooney is good at what he does. I just feel we rely on that too much without looking at other aspects of recruitment.

[RN_Claret]

I'd decided not to watch this, mainly due the absolute car-crash of a season it covered. But after a few comments on the 'From the Beehole End' podcast, I gave it a whirl. Very glad I did! Much more fascinating than the first series. We were all crying out for changes believing VK to be too stubborn - so it was great to see it from the other side. We were right!!! Soviet style decisions: cleaners not allow to criticise the 'project', decrying fans not getting behind the 'project' when it was all a secret, "Alan wants a drum!" saying we didn't get it but failing to realise that it was the Americans who didn't get it - Burnley fans hate drums!

Poignant when Alan realised he'd had his pants pulled down by VK. Mooney came across well in some parts but too dogmatic/detached in others. - Burnley's answer to Dominic Cummings! Matt Williams comes across well I thought - a grafter who cares about the club. We have a frightening number of staff at the club and some of those Directors didn't appear to contribute anything. If our current squad is bloated, what about the non-playing staff?

VK lost the dressing room and was Jekyll and Hyde - Philosopher King in interviews, ego-centric tyrant with the players. We're well rid. Onwards and upwards!

[Bordeauxclaret]

What Drumgate told me was that the chairman is some kind of control freak. As Ball basically said, it's none negotiable because Alan says so. Worryingly we have the drum but it comes across loud and clear that only Pace calls the shots and I don't think Mission 2 makes him look very good.

Can’t be that much of a control freak based on that as the drum didn’t happen.

[4:20]

Interesting that mid-match on Monday our staff were poring over their ipads more than I saw Kompany’s staff doing. That data element won’t go away.

The management could do with hiding their IPad screens when they're exposed to the cameras. During a substitution on Monday, Zaroury I think, one coach was showing him tactics as he was preparing to come on and the camera above was filming the screen for a good ten seconds or so.

[NewClaret]

Largely agree although I think Pace needs some credit for trying to do the right thing, the problem being they don’t yet understand a fan base like ours. We know that the way to get atmosphere is to have higher tempo games at home, i.e. more Liverpool than City. I felt in key games our slow style let opponents get a foothold, muted the atmosphere, and nick wins or draws off us (Palace, West Ham, Bournemouth, Luton etc). I am hoping under Parker that will now change.

Although I criticised the clip of Mooney in that episode, he will likely factor in mentality into his data. The bit I think he missed was the value of experience and I’d be curious if that was on his analytical model. If players are all in his databank as individuals, they may look fantastic, but add experience to a group and it seems to raise every other player by 10%. So my prediction is that the assumptions underpinning the modelling were imperfect.

We have to remember Mooney was one of the chief data people at City. So he must be good, and is still a long-term football person. But I would say a few hours a week of Parker’s time should now be sitting down with a person like this and fine tuning their assumptions (I am assuming this includes analysis of opposing teams). Interesting that mid-match on Monday our staff were poring over their ipads more than I saw Kompany’s staff doing. That data element won’t go away.

You’re right, it won’t go away. Nor would I want it to. Finding margins via data will be crucial to our gaining some competitive edge on teams in future.

You’d imagine that the premier league clubs have all the same expertise and tools, so in that league we’ll only ever be keeping pace but in the championship you’d hope it’ll continue to give us a distinct advantage.

Anyway, we need to stay on top of it and as you say, it’s great to have someone like Mooney (ex City) at the club, not only helping us now but presumably embedding knowledge in to our staff.

I’m pretty certain that Mooney’s models will include experience data points - age/apps, etc. We made a strategic decision to prioritise younger players. Kompany commented that this strategy was set by the club before he left and Mooney said similar in MtB.

What I’m not sure you can ever capture data on is professionalism, personality, fit, etc. They can gather interviews, social media posts, etc as research in to a players background though, and I’m certain they do for those that get shortlisted.

In summary, it’s as simple as Pace needing to reflect on this season and realise that we need more players aged 25-30 to handle the rigours of the premier league. Then Mooney puts that in his model as a criteria to adjust the search. You’ll also pay more in fees, wages and the players will most likely want relegation clauses and not be willing to accept wage reductions on relegation either. So you can understand the club being cautious around such a strategy.

The alternative is to grow your own experience in which case you have to hold on to your talent while they gain it. So far I’ve been impressed with how much of it we have held on to but there’s time yet.

[Culmclaret]

The management could do with hiding their IPad screens when they're exposed to the cameras. During a substitution on Monday, Zaroury I think, one coach was showing him tactics as he was preparing to come on and the camera above was filming the screen for a good ten seconds or so.

Yes noticed that …..but was it a ruse? We certainly took the game by the scruff of the neck at that point.

[ClaretTony]

Can’t be that much of a control freak based on that as the drum didn’t happen.

It didn't happen but it came across like that with Ball with his Alan this, Alan that etc.

[Bordeauxclaret]

It came across to me like someone reiterating what his boss had told him.

His boss clearly then listened to feedback and canned the idea.

[ClaretTony]

It came across to me like someone reiterating what his boss had told him.

His boss clearly then listened to feedback and canned the idea.

If you think that then fine.

[Stalbansclaret]

After watching this (really "enjoyed" it..more insights than the first series I think) I'm now very glad that VK has gone. I appreciate that there must (surely) be a lot more going on in terms of tactical plan than we get to see but his pre-match/post-match dressing room "motivational" addresses to the players were Sunday League level, David-Brentesque foul-mouthed nonsense. I can't imagine the likes of Harry Kane and Thomas Muller being overly-impressed.

[claretskeith]

I'm hoping once it comes out on Now TV in September it will get ripped.
At the moment if I'm right it's only released on Sky Sports+.

I assume you mean you don't have the Sports option on Now TV? As for me the sports option includes Sky Sports+ and is available on Now TV.

[Marney&Mee]

Trafford looked petrified before games…