A good midfield dilemma

[Somethingfishy]

I've seen posts looking forward to Flemming being a 10 behind Foster and those praising Hannibal and Laurent. Rightly so too. However with Cullen getting back to fitness and assuming Foster is back then there will be some interesting options in midfield.

Who misses out?

I think Cullen comes back in for Laurent. He just makes us tick so much. Laurent will be a good option from the bench to defend a lead late in the game as Cullen tires and he is much more a physical presence.
If we then assume Flemming plays behind Foster that leaves one spot for Brownhill and Hannibal.

So...who plays where and who misses out? Interesting options and a good dilemma for SP to have.

[RVclaret]

For me it’s

Cullen Brownhill
——Flemming

With the other 2 being in and around it in almost every game including rotating with injuries / fatigue in winter months.

[equinox]

Hannibal won't be available for a good proportion of the fixtures.

[Row x]

Hannibal won't be available for a good proportion of the fixtures.

How many did he miss the last time he played at this level?

[colne-claret]

How many did he miss the last time he played at this level?

Played 38 in total with total of 10 yellows. So what, 3 games suspended? 5 injured/rotated/not picked. Not too bad.

[bumba]

Brownhill and Cullen with Flemming in front from what I've seen so far.
Not seen enough from Hannibal to suggest he's better than what we already have in a 10 role, maybe try him deeper.

[Bordeauxclaret]

Cullen and Brownhill are the two leading contenders by quite a distance in my view.

At home we’ll probably get away with two, but good options to have if we want to be more conservative away from home.

[willsclarets]

Can't imagine he drops brownhill or Cullen. They've been there, done it. Hannibal is only 21, his time will come soon enough. If anyone's place is under threat its Brownhill I think in the advanced role. If Flemming replaces him you could imagine a pairing of Cullen/Hannibal working well in behind. He's (Hannibal) probably a better presser of the ball than Brownhill.

Laurent will be broader cover with Massengo.

[Vegas Claret]

really good options, we are strong

[summitclaret]

Ramsey as well in due course.

[Murger]

And if Tresor gets his act together.

[equinox]

How many did he miss the last time he played at this level?

8 by the sounds of it, like I said, a good proportion.

[RalphCoatesComb]

Another vote for the Cullen / Brownhill partnership, alongside Laurent or Hannibal

We still have some of the best players in the League but, time will tell

[NewClaret]

Cullen Brownhill
Hannibal

Feel Hannibal could drop back to rest either Brownhill or Cullen, creating space for Flemming in the 10. Flemming could go up front too, rotating with Foster.

[NewClaret]

I think Laurent is a great option for that type of game vs Leeds where we’re going to have to dig in.

Don’t feel he’s good enough on the ball to be a regular starter ahead of the players we have.

[taio]

8 by the sounds of it, like I said, a good proportion.

Think that's incorrect. Also you said he won't be available for a good proportion. He was available and I don't think he had any suspensions.

[Tricky Trevor]

Wonderful squad with options for injury/suspensions but come January a back up RB is priority with a true WR just behind it. Humphries looked lost yesterday and his right foot was a weakness.

[louieollie]

I think it all depends on the opposition as Scott assess it and of course current form should be a big factor too imo.

[NewClaret]

Wonderful squad with options for injury/suspensions but come January a back up RB is priority with a true WR just behind it. Humphries looked lost yesterday and his right foot was a weakness.

I agree about the RB, not sure any RW is going to get in ahead of Koleosho and he seems to have been moved to the right now.

I’m also looking forward to seeing how Ageyi gets on in that position now he’s back from injury.

[TheFamilyCat]

I see Hanibal, ultimately as a Brownhill upgrade. Same energy but better on the ball. Probably still lacking a bit of discipline at the moment but hopefully that's something he will learn.

[NewClaret]

Talking of January, really hoping we’re in a great position and can add one or two on loans with obligations to buy if promoted. Players will look at us differently again if they think they’ve a good chance of being in the premier league again next season.

[Tricky Trevor]

I agree about the RB, not sure any RW is going to get in ahead of Koleosho and he seems to have been moved to the right now.

I’m also looking forward to seeing how Ageyi gets on in that position now he’s back from injury.

It’s moving Koleosho to the right that has teed me off. He’s far better from the left, unfortunately so are Anthony and Sarmiento.

[NewClaret]

It’s moving Koleosho to the right that has teed me off. He’s far better from the left, unfortunately so are Anthony and Sarmiento.

So far I’ve not been hugely impressed with Anthony, but early to judge yet, but I agree it’s really strange we went for two LW’s when we already had one… and no RW apart from Whittaker.

[Goody1975]

Think that's incorrect. Also you said he won't be available for a good proportion. He was available and I don't think he had any suspensions.

Correct, he didn't join them until they'd played six games but didn't miss any games through injury or suspension.

However he was there for 43 games (including the FA Cup) but only started 23. He was subbed on 18 times and an unused substitute for 2 games. He was booked 10 times in the league and in 1 of the 3 cup games. Strangely he was only booked once in his final thirteen games.

I would think he will pass the threshold for five cautions, I don't think there is any doubt of that having been booked twice already, it depends on how he settles down as to whether or not that is his only suspension.

[claretspice]

I think the best combination at the heart of our midfield, by some distance, starts as Cullen and Brownhill, and I also think that for the majority of games, when we can be expected to have most of the ball, they would be joined in our first choice XI by Foster at centre forward and Flemming playing in the link role he's played for most of his career. That helps Foster because he was someone comfortable receiving on the half turn playing off him and freeing him up to run down the channels, or drift wide to pick the ball up (Foster does a lot of his best work coming from the inside left role). It also works for Brownhill because Flemmings movement is intelligent and will create gaps for third man runs beyond from midfield.

That leaves Mejbri as the odd one out for now and I see Laurent as back up for Cullen for the most part (possibly playing alongside Cullen if we were looking to play two out and out holding midfielders).

But there will be ups and down of form, injury and supension to be managed so it'll never be that simple and it's great to have options. And of course it is quite likely that Brownhill will leave at the end of the season given he has not yet signed a new contract and so it's important to have a clear succession plan for that. When Ramsey is fit half way through the season it really will give us a fascinating number of options in midfield and it may be that Brownhill's place comes under threat then.

[Jamesy]

Please don’t give me pelters for this but our ball retention wasn’t very good yesterday. Thankfully, although Leeds had a lot of the ball they weren’t that good and on the few occasions they did threaten apart from the early chance, our defence did well and Trafford was solid.
For me Cullen needs to start as he has the ability to put his foot on the ball and play the telling passes. Good 3 points yesterday but let’s not get carried away. Still a lot of work to be done.

[claretspice]

This is correct and it improved after Cullen came on. Certainly it was a weakness in Laurent's performance yesterday. However, the fact the midfield three has played very little football together was clearly an issue yesterday and that will improve with football. I also think though that dropping Flemming back into the 10 role is also likely to improve matters because his touch and awareness of runners was very good and having him more involved earlier in our build up is likely to help us build through the pitch. The distance between him and Laurent/Brownhill was significant for the most part and Hannibal isn't especially comfortable receiving on the half turn - much better when facing the opposition goal.

[Tricky Trevor]

Please don’t give me pelters for this but our ball retention wasn’t very good yesterday. Thankfully, although Leeds had a lot of the ball they weren’t that good and on the few occasions they did threaten apart from the early chance, our defence did well and Trafford was solid.
For me Cullen needs to start as he has the ability to put his foot on the ball and play the telling passes. Good 3 points yesterday but let’s not get carried away. Still a lot of work to be done.

No pelters from me. Up to scoring and for the majority of the second half our first touch and passing were atrocious. Thankfully the whole side put a full shift in and weathered what was thrown at them.

[Goliath]

There was 2 factors in the ball retention, both individual and tactical. The tactical one may have been due to the fixture but I still think Parker would have expected more in that regard.
Individually Laurent is a problem in this regard in that he just doesn't make himself available, it's a vital aspect of his role and if he doesn't do it then he shouldn't play. I'd like to see a direct comparison between his number of touches vs Cullen in that role. Bit of a crude comparison but I imagine Cullen is involved far more

[taio]

There was 2 factors in the ball retention, both individual and tactical. The tactical one may have been due to the fixture but I still think Parker would have expected more in that regard.
Individually Laurent is a problem in this regard in that he just doesn't make himself available, it's a vital aspect of his role and if he doesn't do it then he shouldn't play. I'd like to see a direct comparison between his number of touches vs Cullen in that role. Bit of a crude comparison but I imagine Cullen is involved far more

Luton
- Cullen 48 touches or 0.50 touches per minute

Cardiff
- Cullen 56 touches or 0.67 touches per minute

Blackburn
- Laurent 55 touches or 0.69 touches per minute

Leeds
- Laurent 36 touches or 0.36 touches per minute
- Cullen 11 touches or 0.39 touches per minute

[Goliath]

Luton
- Cullen 48 touches or 0.50 touches per minute

Cardiff
- Cullen 56 touches or 0.67 touches per minute

Blackburn
- Laurent 55 touches or 0.69 touches per minute

Leeds
- Laurent 36 touches or 0.36 touches per minute
- Cullen 11 touches or 0.39 touches per minute

Interesting, confirms what I thought especially against Leeds that Laurent wasn't getting on the ball anywhere near enough.

Initially I was surprised to see them at the same figure for the Blackburn/Cardiff game but thinking about it we had a lot less possession in that Cardiff game. If Cardiff had played v Blackburn I imagine he'd have been around the 70 mark at least.

The Luton/Leeds games are probably quite good comparisons as well as we played similar counter attacking plans in both. However we looked much more assured on the ball against Luton and I do wonder if Cullen over Laurent was a big factor in that.

[taio]

Interesting, confirms what I thought especially against Leeds that Laurent wasn't getting on the ball anywhere near enough.

Initially I was surprised to see them at the same figure for the Blackburn/Cardiff game but thinking about it we had a lot less possession in that Cardiff game. If Cardiff had played v Blackburn I imagine he'd have been around the 70 mark at least.

The Luton/Leeds games are probably quite good comparisons as well as we played similar counter attacking plans in both. However we looked much more assured on the ball against Luton and I do wonder if Cullen over Laurent was a big factor in that.

In my view, it crudely shows that there hasn't been much been difference so far between Laurent and Cullen in terms of touches of the ball. I recall that you gave Laurent just 4 on the player ratings thread for the Blackburn game - I think you were the only poster to do so, with most giving 7s and some 8s and 6s. I get the impression you've been unnecessarily harsh on Laurent to date. We know Laurent is very likely to just be back-up, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare anyway.

[dvalley69]

Please don’t give me pelters for this but our ball retention wasn’t very good yesterday. Thankfully, although Leeds had a lot of the ball they weren’t that good and on the few occasions they did threaten apart from the early chance, our defence did well and Trafford was solid.
For me Cullen needs to start as he has the ability to put his foot on the ball and play the telling passes. Good 3 points yesterday but let’s not get carried away. Still a lot of work to be done.

That's the Championship for ya, therefore a good solid defence and tactical structure will be more than enough. Add in some good ball retention, i.e. VK's Burnley 2 seasons ago, and you walk the league; it's a worry if we get promotion as most of this squad won't be good enough, but that's for another day!

[bobinho]

The problem I see is that Brownhill currently holds the armband.

Cullen HAS to start. He’s absolutely crucial to us, and it’s blatantly obvious to everyone that we are weaker in the middle of the park when he’s out. Laurent is cover, and as stated earlier in the thread, a good option for shoring up and defending a lead late on when we are under pressure.

Going forward, as we develop as a team, I see Cullen and Hannibal as the centre pairing with Zian in the no 10 role.

[NL Claret]

There’s no comparison between the Luton and Leeds games.

42% possession at Luton and were up 4-1 up for 10+ minutes.

29% possession at Leeds where we were under pressure for periods.

With 29% possession, every player will have less touches.

[bobinho]

In my view, it crudely shows that there hasn't been much been difference so far between Laurent and Cullen in terms of touches of the ball. I recall that you gave Laurent just 4 on the player ratings thread for the Blackburn game - I think you were the only poster to do so, with most giving 7s and some 8s and 6s. I get the impression you've been unnecessarily harsh on Laurent to date. We know Laurent is very likely to just be back-up, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare anyway.

To be fair, your stats only show touches of the ball, not how important or crucial those touches were. That’s relevant when trying to prove a players worth to the team and the set up, but your stats don’t reflect that. I think when we watch the games and see the game develop, most can see that Cullen generally finds himself in positions where he can either be destructive to the opposition, or pivotal in our attacks. Laurent has yet to show this side of his game for me.

[Goliath]

In my view, it crudely shows that there hasn't been much been difference so far between Laurent and Cullen in terms of touches of the ball. I recall that you gave Laurent just 4 on the player ratings thread for the Blackburn game - I think you were the only poster to do so, with most giving 7s and some 8s and 6s. I get the impression you've been unnecessarily harsh on Laurent to date. We know Laurent is very likely to just be back-up, so I'm not sure it's fair to compare anyway.

How? Your figure for the Leeds game if correct shows he touched the ball 36 times. That's nowhere near enough for the role he's in and is a huge reason why we couldn't keep the ball.

Also, good memory I did give him a low mark v Blackburn because I noticed really early that he wasn't doing enough to make himself available and I ended up watching it closer than I normally would after that.
I have no problem with him, I just don't think he's doing what we need him to so far and I don't really understand why we didn't just keep Jack Cork instead.

He might be back up in future but up till now he's played w games out of w and that's how I've marked him. We can't really rate him differently because he's possibly a backup, I'm just giving my honest view.

[Goliath]

There’s no comparison between the Luton and Leeds games.

42% possession at Luton and were up 4-1 up for 10+ minutes.

29% possession at Leeds where we were under pressure for periods.

With 29% possession, every player will have less touches.

I think it's as good a comparison as you're going to get. We used very similar game plans in both and went infront in the first half in both so had to soak up periods of pressure.

My point is we had more possession against Luton because Cullen was playing. The 29% possession happened because we didn't have players comfortable enough on the ball to play out of pressure and we didn't have a player centrally offering himself consistently. Berge was brilliant at that last season, it might look simple but it's the hardest thing to do in the game. That's bravery for me rather than flying into tackles.

[LincsWoldsClaret]

Our best midfielder in the last 2 games has been Laurent - he ain’t getting dropped.
Laurent and Cullen in front of the back 4 takes some beating in this division.

[taio]

To be fair, your stats only show touches of the ball, not how important or crucial those touches were. That’s relevant when trying to prove a players worth to the team and the set up, but your stats don’t reflect that. I think when we watch the games and see the game develop, most can see that Cullen generally finds himself in positions where he can either be destructive to the opposition, or pivotal in our attacks. Laurent has yet to show this side of his game for me.

The post I replied to specifically asked for a comparison on touches of the ball.

[taio]

How? Your figure for the Leeds game if correct shows he touched the ball 36 times. That's nowhere near enough for the role he's in and is a huge reason why we couldn't keep the ball.

Also, good memory I did give him a low mark v Blackburn because I noticed really early that he wasn't doing enough to make himself available and I ended up watching it closer than I normally would after that.
I have no problem with him, I just don't think he's doing what we need him to so far and I don't really understand why we didn't just keep Jack Cork instead.

He might be back up in future but up till now he's played w games out of w and that's how I've marked him. We can't really rate him differently because he's possibly a backup, I'm just giving my honest view.

Laurent and Cullen had a similar proportion of touches against Leeds, which is the type of comparison you were looking for. So I would have thought it showed it was a harder game to control than any of the other games those two players have played in so far this season.

[NL Claret]

I think it's as good a comparison as you're going to get. We used very similar game plans in both and went infront in the first half in both so had to soak up periods of pressure.

My point is we had more possession against Luton because Cullen was playing. The 29% possession happened because we didn't have players comfortable enough on the ball to play out of pressure and we didn't have a player centrally offering himself consistently. Berge was brilliant at that last season, it might look simple but it's the hardest thing to do in the game. That's bravery for me rather than flying into tackles.

It’s as good a comparison as you’re going to get?

I’m not looking for one!! Totally different games.

Not that I’m trying to compare either player, how many times did Laurent break up play yesterday? Leeds had 9 corners, scored from 0, Laurent have anything to do with that?

How much did we pay for Laurent?
How much did we sell Berge for?

I don’t get the comparisons or the need to compare.

[CoolClaret]

It's a shame Vitinho has gone because I'd liked to have seen:

----------Cullen
-----Hannibal-Brownhill
Flemming--Foster--Koleosho

With Vitinho effectively playing as a wingback/winger in posession.

I'd like to see us play more 4-3-3 at home/ in games where we are more favoured - I think that gets the most out of Brownhill & Hannibal as well.

Could play Foster off the left with Pires overlapping/playing as a winger in possession and Flemming as a deeper lying forward as well.

[CoolClaret]

Our best midfielder in the last 2 games has been Laurent - he ain’t getting dropped.
Laurent and Cullen in front of the back 4 takes some beating in this division.

I agree that it'd take some beating but against teams that are likely to concede possession and sit in against us, we need to be a bit more adventurous.

[Goliath]

Laurent and Cullen had a similar proportion of touches against Leeds, which is the type of comparison you were looking for. So I would have thought it showed it was a harder game to control than any of the other games those two players have played in so far this season.

Cullen played for the last 20 or so minutes when they were throwing everyone forward and we couldn't get out but he still managed to settle us down when he got the ball. He's a calming presence and everyone just looks calmed when he's on the pitch.
If he'd started I suspect it would have been a totally different game.

[NewClaret]

I agree that it'd take some beating but against teams that are likely to concede possession and sit in against us, we need to be a bit more adventurous.

I agree. Two CDM’s against lower quality opposition is not necessary.

It’s Cullen or Laurent in my opinion and you cannot drop Cullen.

Brownhill alongside him, who can support out of possession and get forward more in possession. Hannibal in the 10 who can also run the channels too.

When Ramsey comes back we’re a bit too stacked in those attacking roles.

[Goliath]

It’s as good a comparison as you’re going to get?

I’m not looking for one!! Totally different games.

Not that I’m trying to compare either player, how many times did Laurent break up play yesterday? Leeds had 9 corners, scored from 0, Laurent have anything to do with that?

How much did we pay for Laurent?
How much did we sell Berge for?

I don’t get the comparisons or the need to compare.

Sure. I'm not saying Laurent has no redeeming qualities. He's been good when he has time on the ball and the full game infront of him. I just think he seems to be lacking so far in one of the most important aspects of his role in terms of making himself available, receiving the ball and moving it on with minimal fuss.

We've been spoilt a bit in that regard with Cork, Berge and Cullen. It's not as easy as they made it look but one thing they all have in common is that they dropped into the full back areas to find space to receive the ball and help us play out. Laurent isn't doing it, watch him when we have the ball with the centre halves, he looks like he's unsure how to make himself available

[taio]

Cullen played for the last 20 or so minutes when they were throwing everyone forward and we couldn't get out but he still managed to settle us down when he got the ball. He's a calming presence and everyone just looks calmed when he's on the pitch.
If he'd started I suspect it would have been a totally different game.

Leeds applied pressure throughout the game - it's why it was such a good result.

Cullen is so important to our starting 11 and Laurent will be back up. They had very similar touch rate. Laurent had a slightly better pass completion % (or less worse). Laurent I think had a higher average player rating than Cullen on here. The Burnley Express rated Laurent higher. Whoscored rated - based on stats - Laurent higher. On their own I'd be sceptical about this evidence, and perhaps even collectively, but I can't think what else we have to go off over and above what we see.

[NL Claret]

Sure. I'm not saying Laurent has no redeeming qualities. He's been good when he has time on the ball and the full game infront of him. I just think he seems to be lacking so far in one of the most important aspects of his role in terms of making himself available, receiving the ball and moving it on with minimal fuss.

We've been spoilt a bit in that regard with Cork, Berge and Cullen. It's not as easy as they made it look but one thing they all have in common is that they dropped into the full back areas to find space to receive the ball and help us play out. Laurent isn't doing it, watch him when we have the ball with the centre halves, he looks like he's unsure how to make himself available

Has Laurent been instructed to do that? Parker’s game plan isn’t the same as Kompany’s. I’d say Parker is happy to have low % possession away from home and exploit teams with the pace on the wings.

I’m not going to start over analysing players. 2 games in after coming through the door 2 weeks ago he was stood up in possibly 2 of the toughest tests of the season.

Let’s accept that we have a wealth of talent and experience that equips us well for the slog of the championship.

[Goliath]

Has Laurent been instructed to do that? Parker’s game plan isn’t the same as Kompany’s. I’d say Parker is happy to have low % possession away from home and exploit teams with the pace on the wings.

I’m not going to start over analysing players. 2 games in after coming through the door 2 weeks ago he was stood up in possibly 2 of the toughest tests of the season.

Let’s accept that we have a wealth of talent and experience that equips us well for the slog of the championship.

Well that's the question really? Is it a tactical decision to avoid playing into midfield or a personnel issue. I'd be surprised if it was tactical but it does seem like there's a lack of patterns I'm terms of playing out from the keeper through the defence and midfield that hasn't yet been rectified.
The one thing I do think we miss from thr VK days is the centre mid dropping in and receiving to feet from the keeper and then knocking it off either side first time. It was simple but effective in getting us out, especially at this level.