Netflix - Strike: An Uncivil War

[Burnley1989]

Has anybody else watched this?

It's hard not to be political when discussing it, but I've a good friend who worked in the mines, and he still has a strong opinion on the way it was policed.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Yes, I have.
I have a particular interest in it as, at the time, I was a serving police officer who was used to police the picket lines, and just for extra interest, my dad was a retired miner and my brother was a striking miner.
The situation caused big problems in my family.

[mdd2]

Bad times but once Jo Gormley retired and Scargill and Mick McGahey "we shall not be constitutionalised out of action" took over the NUM. It was the death nell for democracy at the NUM.

[bobinho]

Yes, I have.
I have a particular interest in it as, at the time, I was a serving police officer who was used to police the picket lines, and just for extra interest, my dad was a retired miner and my brother was a striking miner.
The situation caused big problems in my family.

Be interested to hear your thoughts as you were front line. I’d be very interested what the party line was regarding the policing, but I’m sure you wouldnt be aware of all that.

I’m considerably more “centre” than I used to be, at the time as a kid I was happy to pin my rosette to the miners cause, and maybe the mines could have been viable, but the government decided otherwise. I’d imagine they had more information to base that on than the miners unions. One things for sure, Scargill wasn’t going thru the same levels of hardship the miners were.

I’ll be watching this programme, hopefully I’ll get a more rounded view of it all, and hopefully, there will be some truths in it for both sides.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Scargill’s big mistake was in not having a secret ballot when first calling the strike as he would more than likely have won it.
My brother worked at Agecroft Colliery and the only reason he voted to go on strike is because he was stood with another group of miners who all voted for a strike by a show of hands and he felt under pressure to follow suit.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Be very glad to let you have my thoughts Bobinho. At the time, I was convinced that Thatcher was correct in wanting to shut the unprofitable mines. After all, it was cheaper to import coal from Australia than it was to produce it in our own country. Although a lot of our coal was high quality anthracite, the geological conditions made it expensive to mine.
Now, with the benefit of hindsight, there was insufficient importance put on the impact that mine closures would have on the local economy/community. In a lot of places, it was devastating.
As for how the police were used, let’s just say the boundaries were stretched. We always tried to play fair with the miners. Some were gracious and accepted our presence. Others were nasty and didn’t try to hide how political it all was.
Sorry to go on, but as I stated earlier, it caused big problems in my family. My mum and I went nearly a year without speaking. Difficult times.

[mdd2]

The Tories had been taken to the cleaners in the early 70’s and were determined that those circumstances would not happen again
Better arguments for making ships and steel than for the mines but the loss of heavy industry means devastation to the communities that lose well paid jobs without replacing them with similar well paid jobs

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Scargill was determined to bring down the Thatcher government. Thatcher was equally determined to smash the unions. Certainly faults on both sides.
Scargill was fatally undermined by not holding a secret ballot. In many people’s eyes, he lost all legitimacy.

[dougcollins]

Didn't help when Thatcher used the police as her own private army.

The mistrust engendered has never properly returned.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

As I said earlier, the boundaries of police powers were stretched, sometimes beyond their limits. It’s a matter of interpretation as to whether Thatcher used the police as her own private army.
Where I would take issue with you is about the mistrust never being properly returned. I think the police realised after the event that they had been used to an extent and worked hard to rectify the damage. Think they managed this partially but people have long memories and some people would never be willing to forgive or forget.
Difficult times for the country. Difficult times for myself and my family.

[bobinho]

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience. I hope all is well with your family now.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Thanks bobinho. My brother and I are fine. My dad and I were fine upto his death in 2020.
My mum was a difficult person and we didn’t speak for the last 15 or so years of her life, and that was in relation to another police related matter but that’s another story.
What’s the saying-“you can choose your friends but you can’t choose your family “.

[bfcjg]

I worked with an ex copper who policed the strikes, he told me at the time itcwas in the main the Southern based police who caused most of the trouble, the mining community and Northerners were a bit of a joke to them, they enjoyed winding the pickets up by flashing twenty pound notes at them and similar actions.

[groove]

Excellent documentary this.

[Garnerssoap]

The stories some police officers tell about those times are shocking. The police officers generally comment it was the best time of their lives both financially and professionally. The Met officers in particular. A real taste of what the state will do to you if they fancy it.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

When I was working the picket lines, you used to dread having any contact with Met coppers. There were loads of stories going around about their antics and misdemeanours-some true, many not but they seemed to have a high opinion of themselves and look down on us thick northerners.
In the more militant areas, there was a lot of abuse directed at the cops. One of the milder insults was. “Does your mum know you’re here?”
More than once, I heard the reply. “No but my bank manager does.”
I have a lot of mostly happy memories from those days. I could empathise with what the miners were going through knowing the financial hardship my brother was suffering but as a newly married young cop, it was hard but financially worthwhile.

[Rick_Muller]

Slightly off topic but the mention of the Met police up north reminded me of Its a Fair Cop podcast where Alfie Moore often derides the Met police.

Definitely worth a listen, makes me chuckle at least.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/brand/b060 ... are-mobile

As far as the Netflix series, its now on my radar, thanks for bringing it to my attention

[Pearcey]

I’m from a coal mining family in Kent so I’ll have a look at this. My Mum’s Dad was a miner who came down from Yorkshire because the Kent pits paid more. My Dads Dad was a miner for 45 years as well and my Dad was a Timekeeper at the pit. My Dad joined the strike even though he was in a different union and they were tough times for us all.

[bobinho]

Just finished this documentary….. powerful stuff. All I really remembered from the time was that people were fighting to keep pits open, and with that their communities alive, I didn’t (and still don’t) understand the economics behind it.

I was 19 at the time, couldn’t get a full time job, only offered 12 weeks at a time so I had no sickness or holiday benefits. The couple of weeks in between I thought were hard. Can’t imagine bringing a family up for nearly 12 months on no pay. I also remembering supporting the miners cause at the time, and I also remember how it was reported. I also remember believing the reports - had to be right, it was all filmed and delivered to us on the news!

Unsurprisingly, in 2016 the then conservative govt rejected an inquiry into the policing of the Orgreave picket. Gotta say it makes you wonder doesn’t it? Fully understand those who believe the unions needed reigning in, but this became personal it seems.

Govts still get away with this sort of stuff, even today. For example, why factor in a 100 year gagging order for a vaccine roll out if everything was done properly, and the decisions as to whether it was safe were taken in the best interests of the people? If all that were true, you wouldn’t need to keep it a secret long enough to protect everyone involved.

[Herts Clarets]

Yes, I have.
I have a particular interest in it as, at the time, I was a serving police officer who was used to police the picket lines, and just for extra interest, my dad was a retired miner and my brother was a striking miner.
The situation caused big problems in my family.

I used to work with a lad in Burnley who had a brother in the Police and another brother who was a miner (this was late 80s/early 90s), third brother was in the Paras I think. Name is Damian.

[JohnMcGreal]

Unsurprisingly, in 2016 the then conservative govt rejected an inquiry into the policing of the Orgreave picket. Gotta say it makes you wonder doesn’t it? Fully understand those who believe the unions needed reigning in, but this became personal it seems.

There was a really good documentary about this on Channel 4 earlier this year (it might still be on 4OD or whatever it's called now). I think the second episode was all about Orgreave and they showed a load of footage filmed by the sole NUM cameraman who was there all that day. Let's just say the specific clips shown on the news were very complimentary to the plod. The longer footage and the witness testimonies paint a very grim picture indeed.

It was essentially a government set up. The police waved them all through to get them all in one place and then proceeded to beat the **** out of them.

Not seen the Netflix doc yet but that Channel 4 one was excellent.

[atlantalad]

I remember the miners strikes of 1984 - was at Preston polytechnic and can still recall a lecturer stating our coal reserves were running out, making mining more expensive and UK had to find alternative supply anyway. How things change with time. We have plenty of coal but it is just too dirty as a fuel so now... we import it .

I believe the miners union had signed the death knell of UK coal mining industry in the early 1970's. I remember the 3 day week with limited power supplies - electric cut off maybe 2 or 3 autumn evenings a week ( yes- when it was most needed in the dark). Good job most people had gas for cooking and a ready supply of candles. Think those miners strikes were the tipping point as successive governments looked at importing fossil fuels as back up. Eventually it became cheaper to just import rather than dig it out of our own territory- and UK industry would no longer be at the mercy of the NUM.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

I used to work with a lad in Burnley who had a brother in the Police and another brother who was a miner (this was late 80s/early 90s), third brother was in the Paras I think. Name is Damian.

Hi Herts, think that’s my family you’re referring to. I’m one of five brothers. My second to youngest brother, Andrew, was in the Paras and my youngest brother was Damian. Chris, my middle brother was the striking miner so that’s a decent effort to remember all that after over 30 years.
Presume it was my eldest brother Michael you worked with.

[CoolClaret]

Surely, Burnley fans, of all people, aren't giving credence to Thatcher's ideology and its implementation today?

Together with Reagan, Thatcher laid the foundations of neoliberalism in the West. We're now witnessing the long-term effects of their short sited policies; from the dismantling of cooperatives, union busting, and ultimately the creation of our present-day corporatocracy that has seen the wealth gap literally explode as well as the complete erosion of the 'middle class'.

To quote the late, great JFK - "GDP measures everything except that which is worthwhile".

[HurstGrangeClaret]

As a Burnley fan, it is permissible to have right of centre views.
Think this thread is concentrating on the human side of the story and trying not to get too political.

[Herts Clarets]

Hi Herts, think that’s my family you’re referring to. I’m one of five brothers. My second to youngest brother, Andrew, was in the Paras and my youngest brother was Damian. Chris, my middle brother was the striking miner so that’s a decent effort to remember all that after over 30 years.
Presume it was my eldest brother Michael you worked with.

I thought I may be on the right lines. It was Damian I worked with for a good 9 or 10 years I would say up until redundancy in 1997. That's how I ended up in Hertfordshire via West London. I think he married a girl called Carol if my memory serves me well.

Pass on my best if you speak to him any time soon, my name is Mark but he will probably know who I am from the above.

[Steve-Harpers-perm]

There was a really good documentary about this on Channel 4 earlier this year (it might still be on 4OD or whatever it's called now). I think the second episode was all about Orgreave and they showed a load of footage filmed by the sole NUM cameraman who was there all that day. Let's just say the specific clips shown on the news were very complimentary to the plod. The longer footage and the witness testimonies paint a very grim picture indeed.

It was essentially a government set up. The police waved them all through to get them all in one place and then proceeded to beat the **** out of them.

Not seen the Netflix doc yet but that Channel 4 one was excellent.

Have watched the channel 4 one previously and this one last night. Ultimately sad that so many lives and communities ruined by yet another establishment cover up. Touching moment when the miners who faced the trumped up riot charge where the case collapsed in court met up with each other but the effects it still has on them 40 years later clear to see.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

I thought I may be on the right lines. It was Damian I worked with for a good 9 or 10 years I would say up until redundancy in 1997. That's how I ended up in Hertfordshire via West London. I think he married a girl called Carol if my memory serves me well.

Pass on my best if you speak to him any time soon, my name is Mark but he will probably know who I am from the above.

Hi Mark, yes Damian is still married to Carole, both lifelong Clarets. I’ve already pointed this thread out to him so will be interested to know what his reaction is.
Thanks for the best wishes.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Have watched the channel 4 one previously and this one last night. Ultimately sad that so many lives and communities ruined by yet another establishment cover up. Touching moment when the miners who faced the trumped up riot charge where the case collapsed in court met up with each other but the effects it still has on them 40 years later clear to see.

What happened at Orgreave was a scandal and it makes me very angry to know the police were involved in that, although obviously acting under orders from a much higher authority.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, there were certainly faults on both sides which isn’t surprising when you consider the two main protagonists, Thatcher and Scargill, were both such divisive figures.

[Turftalkers mentor]

I was a union conveynor in a different industry at the time . I spent unlimited hours trying to keep people in work.
I regarded Scargill then as I do now as a dangerous amateur , if he had had a secret ballot as he should have , support in the country would have been much stronger for the miners cause .
Instead he gave Thatcher. ( who I despised and still do ) victory .
It’s wrong that unions should be able to bring down or hasten the end of governments but that’s what Joe Gormley dis ten years previously

[fatboy47]

It’s wrong that unions should be able to bring down or hasten the end of governments

Indeed...or Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk, GB news etc etc

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Indeed...or Rupert Murdoch, Elon Musk, GB news etc etc

How can you equate unions attempting to bring down governments to Murdoch, Musk and GBNews? You aren’t comparing like with like but then you are banging a drum for the left of centre so who cares how feeble your reasoning is?

[groove]

I was a union conveynor in a different industry at the time . I spent unlimited hours trying to keep people in work.
I regarded Scargill then as I do now as a dangerous amateur , if he had had a secret ballot as he should have , support in the country would have been much stronger for the miners cause .
Instead he gave Thatcher. ( who I despised and still do ) victory .
It’s wrong that unions should be able to bring down or hasten the end of governments but that’s what Joe Gormley dis ten years previously

I'm not so sure. Now we've got governments who can do whatever they want without consequence. It's swung too far the other way IMHO.

[groove]

What happened at Orgreave was a scandal and it makes me very angry to know the police were involved in that, although obviously acting under orders from a much higher authority.
As I said in one of my earlier posts, there were certainly faults on both sides which isn’t surprising when you consider the two main protagonists, Thatcher and Scargill, were both such divisive figures.

The same thing happened with the protests last month. The meeting points/focal points were publicised on social media. Nobody knows by whom. The 'far right', and I use that term sneeringly, walked right into it. Look at the sentences being dished out for what are no more than Section 4/5 Public Order offences. They were also dressed up as 'Riots' by the media. A carbon copy of Orgreave.

[fatboy47]

How can you equate unions attempting to bring down governments to Murdoch, Musk and GBNews? You aren’t comparing like with like but then you are banging a drum for the left of centre so who cares how feeble your reasoning is?

You really dont think these individuals attemt to bring down governments?

How quaintly naive.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Rich and powerful people have always tried to exert influence. As for attempting to bring down governments, think that maybe stretching it.
GBNews is a news organisation, admittedly on the right of centre, but then you have the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky all widely perceived as having a left wing bias.
And GBNews was massively critical of the recently departed and not missed Conservative government and is also massively critical of the new Labour administration. It is doing what all good news outlets do.
Will the BBC, ITV, Channel Four and Sky treat Labour in the same way they treat the Tories? I have my doubts.

[CoolClaret]

Rich and powerful people have always tried to exert influence. As for attempting to bring down governments, think that maybe stretching it.
GBNews is a news organisation, admittedly on the right of centre, but then you have the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky all widely perceived as having a left wing bias.
And GBNews was massively critical of the recently departed and not missed Conservative government and is also massively critical of the new Labour administration. It is doing what all good news outlets do.
Will the BBC, ITV, Channel Four and Sky treat Labour in the same way they treat the Tories? I have my doubts.

Right of centre?

GB News is cloud cuckoo land mate, with little to no objectivity.

Zuck's social media sites have basically allowed for electioneering to happen with rampant nonsense being allowed to be advertised on their site, now Musk is actively doing that on Twitter/X to try and get Trump elected, you know a bloke who tried to overturn the results of a democratic election.

The BBC is anything but a 'left wing' bias - Kussenberg is a ginormous Tory, as is Fiona Bruce (two of their main presenters on politics). Even look at how many times Farage has been platformed on various BBC programs compared with say, Carla Denyer.

[fatboy47]

Once I encounter a poster who seriously perceives the BBC to be left of centre then I discreetly withdraw.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

All about opinions fatboy. I respect yours, even though I profoundly disagree with you.
CoolClaret, your political opinions blind you to what you can see on your TV screen. There is always a commentator with a left of centre outlook on any panel on GBNews. Try taking the time to watch instead of letting your prejudice blind you.
As for the suggestion that Laura Kuennsberg is a Tory, I’ll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

[LeadBelly]

All about opinions fatboy. I respect yours, even though I profoundly disagree with you.
CoolClaret, your political opinions blind you to what you can see on your TV screen. There is always a commentator with a left of centre outlook on any panel on GBNews. Try taking the time to watch instead of letting your prejudice blind you.
As for the suggestion that Laura Kuennsberg is a Tory, I’ll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

Agreed.

There are people who say BBC is too left or, conversely, BBC is too right but there's an organisation called "Defund the BBC" where people can donate towards that organisation's obvious objective.
If you look at who has been donating money and their reasons- you do get the odd "it's all Tory controlled" but there are far far more people who have the view that BBC is left/"progressive" biased.
So when it comes to putting your money where your mouth is - it's people right of centre who want the BBC to become self-supporting because it's not impartial and equally serving people across the political spectrum. Folks left of Centre seem to want the BBC propaganda machine to roll on (whilst complaining it's not left enough).

It's also telling that the BBC's star boy is the openly left wing Gary Lineker and that the panelists/BBC hosts on the BBC's coverage of the Brexit vote and Corbyn v Johnson election all but cried when the results came through.

[CoolClaret]

CoolClaret, your political opinions blind you to what you can see on your TV screen. There is always a commentator with a left of centre outlook on any panel on GBNews. Try taking the time to watch instead of letting your prejudice blind you.
As for the suggestion that Laura Kuennsberg is a Tory, I’ll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

They may have a single panelist with that outlook, I do know of one, Stella Tsantekidou - that doesn't change anything though, it's probably only done so it can still air and pass ofcom impartiality standards.

Look at who the investors are behind the loss-returning GB News and then ask yourself why they would be happy to poor their money in to something that isn't nor ever will be profitable.

It's also telling that the BBC's star boy is the openly left wing Gary Lineker and that the panelists/BBC hosts on the BBC's coverage of the Brexit vote and Corbyn v Johnson election all but cried when the results came through.

Almost like a sports presenter's political leaning is slightly different than the ones presenting their flagship politics shows.

Also, the BBCs actual news reporting is non-bias, there's no spin added to it, opinion pieces of course different but i was just highlighting the fact that calling it 'left leaning' is inaccurate, not to mention, the status quo of the Tory party in 2015 was remain, not leave.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

If people are willing to invest in a loss leading industry, why do they have to have an ulterior motive? Last time I checked, we were living in a free country. Maybe they just believe in the project.
As for your comment about the Tory party being in favour of the status quo, I wouldn’t disagree with you there. Cameron got found out, the Tories continued their drift from the right to the centre, and that, amongst many other reasons, led to their catastrophic showing in the General Election.

[Woodleyclaret]

I attended an Oxford Labour Party meeting in support of the miners £75000 was pleged for support to families who were in desperate need.My working life has been entirely spent in Berkshire and I have had many an interesting chats with Tory voting teachers aroundThatchers" achievements"

[ChorltonCharlie]

All about opinions fatboy. I respect yours, even though I profoundly disagree with you.
CoolClaret, your political opinions blind you to what you can see on your TV screen. There is always a commentator with a left of centre outlook on any panel on GBNews. Try taking the time to watch instead of letting your prejudice blind you.
As for the suggestion that Laura Kuennsberg is a Tory, I’ll treat that with the contempt it deserves.

Hypocritical that you said that, after previously having said this "GBNews is a news organisation, admittedly on the right of centre, but then you have the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky all widely perceived as having a left wing bias."

Love to the family

[HurstGrangeClaret]

Hypocritical that you said that, after previously having said this "GBNews is a news organisation, admittedly on the right of centre, but then you have the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky all widely perceived as having a left wing bias."

Love to the family

It’s not prejudiced to say that BBC, ITV, Channel Four and Sky are widely perceived as being on the left of centre, while GBNews is right of centre so not sure where your charge of hypocrisy comes from.

[helmclaret]

Rich and powerful people have always tried to exert influence. As for attempting to bring down governments, think that maybe stretching it.
GBNews is a news organisation, admittedly on the right of centre, but then you have the BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Sky all widely perceived as having a left wing bias.
And GBNews was massively critical of the recently departed and not missed Conservative government and is also massively critical of the new Labour administration. It is doing what all good news outlets do.
Will the BBC, ITV, Channel Four and Sky treat Labour in the same way they treat the Tories? I have my doubts.

GB News and ‘good news outlet’ don’t belong in the same sentence.

Have a look into who owns it.

Their amateurish divisive content is laughable.

[HurstGrangeClaret]

All about opinions HC.
Presume it’s only the left leaning news organisations allowed to be divisive?