Last Night's Q&A with the chairman and Mat Williams

[Darnhill Claret]

Maybe he was just asking players to do what they had difficulty in doing, especially when playing against better and more experienced players. Don't think there's much wrong with his tactics, as he was probably trying to implement 'Pep tactics'. His tactics might work better at Bayern, with better players. Where he fell down was not adapting when this became obvious, a few more tweaks here and there might well have extended our Prem stay. Sadly we'll never know.

[NewClaret]

An agent trying to get less commission for himself by suggesting hanging on for a cheaper price

Now that is a first

Late reply, but just reading the thread again.

Imagine he was telling us Southampton wanted £15m but he could get it to £13m if we split the difference with him…

And Southampton that we only wanted to pay £10m but he’d get them £13m if they bunged him some cash too!

Joking, obviously, but bet these are up to all sorts. Hate agents.

Hard to believe Leverkusen paid €23m when Southampton were happy to sell him for £15m though. They’ve had their pants down there. Given how little they’ve played him it makes me ask whether there were incentives in the deal they no longer want to trigger.

[Foshiznik]

Late reply, but just reading the thread again.

Imagine he was telling us Southampton wanted £15m but he could get it to £13m if we split the difference with him…

And Southampton that we only wanted to pay £10m but he’d get them £13m if they bunged him some cash too!

Joking, obviously, but bet these are up to all sorts. Hate agents.

Hard to believe Leverkusen paid €23m when Southampton were happy to sell him for £15m though. They’ve had their pants down there. Given how little they’ve played him it makes me ask whether there were incentives in the deal they no longer want to trigger.

I'd take him now with the money we had available for Whittaker.

[NewClaret]

I'd take him now with the money we had available for Whittaker.

Not sure we did have any because he was a loan to buy. But given he never seems to start for Leverkusen you’d think there might be a deal to be done. I’d play him through the middle with Flemming behind. I always thought he looked good more central and he can head it too. His Pace and Flemming’s brawn could be a good combination.

[NewClaret]

It is disgusting but that's how things are I'm afraid. It doesn't take a lot of working out who they are either.

The two people I know who were invited both certainly have considerably more money than I have and I think would be considered potential investors.

Sorry, I missed this.

I have to say, based on the fact a number of them played and appeared quite committed when they did (scoring, celebrating with fans, etc.

Interesting about investors. I thought that AP would be targeting rich Malaysian families and the like for investment, not local people. Maybe a sign £’s are needed.

[NewClaret]

I think you will find that Gibson is not a bad character but also that Dyche didn’t sign him. Tarkowski did run his contract down but I have no issue with that. And as for our club captain running his contract down, who was that? Ben Mee was released.

Re: Gibson, I know you know more about the situation with every transfer than I do, but if we’re saying Dyche insisted on all the proper player due diligence before signing players it’s somewhat hard to rule out some signings as being his where the proper checks were done. His attitude seemed a bit rotten to me, but the thing with all of these scenarios is they’re subjective based on what you know.

Re: Tarks, his running the contract down I have no issue with either, I thought the interview he gave where he was clear that was his intention (a year or two out if memory serves) was a unprofessional. I’m certain if a Kompany signing did that now it would be widely criticised as a sign of poor attitude. And it’s not materially different to what Muric threatened according to this thread, just he didn’t go public. As it happens, Tarks stayed and gave 100% till the last minute but that doesn’t change my view that the interview was unprofessional which is the criticism being levelled at some of last years squad (rightly so, I just think you then have to also look at past players professionalism objectively too).

Re: Mee he said himself he was offered a contract on 25th April. He said he didn’t stay because of the uncertainty surrounding the club - no manager, and that with the players leaving he was unsure whether the club were really going to give promotion back to the Premier League a ‘proper go’. He also alluded that players were being asked to take big pay cuts up to 80%, so maybe that was the real reason vs his “oh everything was too uncertain for me to accept the offer” excuse. Maybe he has a fair argument that the offer came too late but I still feel, from his own comments, the captain abandoned what he saw as a sinking ship at the time.

Overall though, accepting your point that some leave in the wrong way and the right way, I just think they all put their own interests at the heart of their decisions ultimately however many character checks you do. I think that’s why fans have warmed to Esteve, who I’m sure will’ve had offers, for remaining loyal to the cause.

[Foshiznik]

I think it's fair to say that the one player who downed tools as soon as relegation was confirmed is Aro Muric. Unfortunately some will ignore that as he became somewhat of a messiah for the anti Trafford brigade last season although quite a bit of humble pie could be eaten by a few of the more abusive posters.

In terms of the others and from limited knowledge of the goings on in the last couple weeks of the transfer window, one player who did seem to do it right (at least from an optics point of view) was Vitinho. I've no issues with players wanting to better themselves as long as they are professional about it. Holding the club to ransom or downing tools should never be the initial action when looking to move and only the last resort if the club hasn't kept promises. There should always be some appreciation of their current club for providing them with a platform.

[dsr]

Re: Mee he said himself he was offered a contract on 25th April. He said he didn’t stay because of the uncertainty surrounding the club - no manager, and that with the players leaving he was unsure whether the club were really going to give promotion back to the Premier League a ‘proper go’. He also alluded that players were being asked to take big pay cuts up to 80%, so maybe that was the real reason vs his “oh everything was too uncertain for me to accept the offer” excuse. Maybe he has a fair argument that the offer came too late but I still feel, from his own comments, the captain abandoned what he saw as a sinking ship at the time.

Certainly if he thought it was a sinking ship, he would abandon it. That's only common sense. The passengers on the Titanic didn't stay on board in hopes of trying to save the ship. If a player suspects the (relatively) new board of directors isn't up to the job and there is no sign of a new manager arriving, can he really be expected to stay in the Championship when he is offered a PL job at a stable club?

[Foshiznik]

Re: Gibson, I know you know more about the situation with every transfer than I do, but if we’re saying Dyche insisted on all the proper player due diligence before signing players it’s somewhat hard to rule out some signings as being his where the proper checks were done. His attitude seemed a bit rotten to me, but the thing with all of these scenarios is they’re subjective based on what you know.

Re: Tarks, his running the contract down I have no issue with either, I thought the interview he gave where he was clear that was his intention (a year or two out if memory serves) was a unprofessional. I’m certain if a Kompany signing did that now it would be widely criticised as a sign of poor attitude. And it’s not materially different to what Muric threatened according to this thread, just he didn’t go public. As it happens, Tarks stayed and gave 100% till the last minute but that doesn’t change my view that the interview was unprofessional which is the criticism being levelled at some of last years squad (rightly so, I just think you then have to also look at past players professionalism objectively too).

Re: Mee he said himself he was offered a contract on 25th April. He said he didn’t stay because of the uncertainty surrounding the club - no manager, and that with the players leaving he was unsure whether the club were really going to give promotion back to the Premier League a ‘proper go’. He also alluded that players were being asked to take big pay cuts up to 80%, so maybe that was the real reason vs his “oh everything was too uncertain for me to accept the offer” excuse. Maybe he has a fair argument that the offer came too late but I still feel, from his own comments, the captain abandoned what he saw as a sinking ship at the time.

Overall though, accepting your point that some leave in the wrong way and the right way, I just think they all put their own interests at the heart of their decisions ultimately however many character checks you do. I think that’s why fans have warmed to Esteve, who I’m sure will’ve had offers, for remaining loyal to the cause.

His exact quotes at the time:-

"It's how you're valued and I think it's a lot of different scenarios – is the club going to come back up in the Premier League? Is it going to do everything it can to come back up in the Premier League?

"If you're not sure about that, Burnley had Tarky leaving, Popey leaving, Collo leaving, Dwight leaving, Max leaving. A lot of players were going so you kind of think if I stay am I going to be left behind here. It is one of them, as much as you want to help the club you've got to think about your career."

He added: "I was offered a contract at the end of April, 25th of April, and then nothing after that so I wasn't aware of anything that was available. There was no contact after that, it was literally done."

[Dark Cloud]

I think he's absolutely useless. Why VK put absolute faith in this player is beyond me.

Clearly not useless and definitely improved over the season and looks to have the makings of a decent PL defender, BUT was it appears, so desperate to jump ship he opted for another lame duck (in PL terms), another season of struggle and strife and an extremely high possibility of another relegation and I don't think he was at all clever there. If nobody else in the PL was prepared to buy him, then he'd have been better having another season with us and seeing where it took him (imo).

[Darnhill Claret]

And of course Ben and his agent would have been talking with other clubs since January 1st.

[mybloodisclaret]

I'd take him now with the money we had available for Whittaker.

Can you imagine Tella on a loan to buy in January. Wow. Would be the best Christmas present of all time. Be even nicer to have it done in time for rovers away on 4th Jan.

It would also all but confirm promotion in my view.
We can but dream, would love him back at the club.

[jojomk1]

Can you imagine Tella on a loan to buy in January. Wow. Would be the best Christmas present of all time. Be even nicer to have it done in time for rovers away on 4th Jan.

It would also all but confirm promotion in my view.
We can but dream, would love him back at the club.

Saw an article over the weekend that Real Madrid are thinking they were wrong in paying so much for Mbappe

Cheeky bid Alan ?

[NewClaret]

His exact quotes at the time:-

"It's how you're valued and I think it's a lot of different scenarios – is the club going to come back up in the Premier League? Is it going to do everything it can to come back up in the Premier League?

"If you're not sure about that, Burnley had Tarky leaving, Popey leaving, Collo leaving, Dwight leaving, Max leaving. A lot of players were going so you kind of think if I stay am I going to be left behind here. It is one of them, as much as you want to help the club you've got to think about your career."

He added: "I was offered a contract at the end of April, 25th of April, and then nothing after that so I wasn't aware of anything that was available. There was no contact after that, it was literally done."

Yes, remember him saying the exact date.

The way it reads it was very clearly his decision to leave but it feels like he tries to pass the blame to the club a bit with the late offer. I struggle with that one as I’m sure there would’ve been offers under Dyche in the final two years of his contract especially with Tarky clear he was leaving in the same year.

Either way, his quotes sort of highlight my point: “I wasn’t convinced so I left”. That’s not the same as what these guys did in summer, acting unprofessionally, but however many character checks you run I’m not sure it makes a difference when you’re relegated. It’s human behaviour to look after yourself.

[jojomk1]

That’s not the same as what these guys did in summer, acting unprofessionally, but however many character checks you run I’m not sure it makes a difference when you’re relegated. It’s human behaviour to look after yourself.

Exactly

You are on a relegation clause with a large chunk of your original signing wage taken away
Yes, you signed up to this in the first place but there are alternatives
If another club comes in
Your wages go back up (potentially even higher than the previous year)
You get an additional signing on fee and maybe even a longer contract
You look after yourself at the end of the day and seek a better deal

We would all do the same

[Hipper]

Clearly not useless and definitely improved over the season and looks to have the makings of a decent PL defender, BUT was it appears, so desperate to jump ship he opted for another lame duck (in PL terms), another season of struggle and strife and an extremely high possibility of another relegation and I don't think he was at all clever there. If nobody else in the PL was prepared to buy him, then he'd have been better having another season with us and seeing where it took him (imo).

Wages may have come into to it too.

I don't think VK 'put absolute faith' in O'Shea as Boatshed Bill suggests. I always thought he was bought as back up but because of all the injuries and poor form we had in that area - Beyer, Ekdal, Al Dakhil, Delcroix (?), and we had loaned out McNally, Egan-Riley we were short. O'Shea proved to be the only centre back that had any sort of capability at this level until we brought in Esteve.

[mybloodisclaret]

Saw an article over the weekend that Real Madrid are thinking they were wrong in paying so much for Mbappe

Cheeky bid Alan ?

Hi Jojo not sure if you're being facetious or not. I did in fairness say we can but hope.

Clearly there will be many bigger clubs than us interested in him if he was available. He just was part of the magic two years ago and such a key player.
Two more years experience having won a title in Germany and played in Champions League. Like I said, we can but dream....... would be sensational knock your socks of stuff for Tella to return.

[Goliath]

To be fair, Pace clearly has a good relationship with Tella so I don't think it's completely unrealistic.
I doubt he would commit long term to us, but a loan with a view to a permanent if promoted could well be tempting depending on where we sit in the league in January.

[boatshed bill]

Wages may have come into to it too.

I don't think VK 'put absolute faith' in O'Shea as Boatshed Bill suggests. I always thought he was bought as back up but because of all the injuries and poor form we had in that area - Beyer, Ekdal, Al Dakhil, Delcroix (?), and we had loaned out McNally, Egan-Riley we were short. O'Shea proved to be the only centre back that had any sort of capability at this level until we brought in Esteve.

Actually on reflection you are most likely right about this.

[NewClaret]

To be fair, Pace clearly has a good relationship with Tella so I don't think it's completely unrealistic.
I doubt he would commit long term to us, but a loan with a view to a permanent if promoted could well be tempting depending on where we sit in the league in January.

I’m struggling with the whole notion that Tella is somehow bigger than us now. His previous club was Southampton where he didn’t play, he had a great season with us but didn’t always play, then he’s gone to Leverkusen and not played.

I’m not really sure that there will be a long queue of teams in for him. He may well find a bigger club than us willing to splash out, depending on whether he wants to stay in Europe, or in the UK maybe a Leeds, Leicester type club, but I’m not sure he’d have the same guarantee of game time as he’d likely have here. Assuming that’s his priority now.

I’d love him back and feel he’d be a fantastic signing for us. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong and he’ll have a queue at the door in January but I think if we can show that we’re really keen I think we’d be well placed. If we offer I guess we’ll find out if he loves us as much as we loved him.

[Goliath]

I’m struggling with the whole notion that Tella is somehow bigger than us now. His previous club was Southampton where he didn’t play, he had a great season with us but didn’t always play, then he’s gone to Leverkusen and not played.

I’m not really sure that there will be a long queue of teams in for him. He may well find a bigger club than us willing to splash out, depending on whether he wants to stay in Europe, or in the UK maybe a Leeds, Leicester type club, but I’m not sure he’d have the same guarantee of game time as he’d likely have here. Assuming that’s his priority now.

I’d love him back and feel he’d be a fantastic signing for us. Maybe I’ll be proven wrong and he’ll have a queue at the door in January but I think if we can show that we’re really keen I think we’d be well placed. If we offer I guess we’ll find out if he loves us as much as we loved him.

I think if it's a loan then the bottom half of the Prem would be battling to sign him, no risk and a no brainer.
If it's with a compulsory option with a big fee then that list would shorten massively and probably give us more of a chance if we stipulated that we'd only pay it if promoted.

I don't think it's particularly farfetched but it's still quite unlikely.

[durhamclaret]

Was anything said about our ticketing shambles, apologies if already said on thread.

[jlup1980]

The crux of it was, he had the agents of 4 players on the phone immediately after the Spurs game saying their players wanted out and would never play for us again.

Muric and Anass would appear obvious. They were both discarded and I don't expect either of them wanted to risk the same thing happening again.
Al-Dakhil - he went from being very much part of VK's plans, to disappearing from sight.
Berge is likely too. I don't think he had any intention of dropping back to the Championship.

The two that came later... probably Amdouni and Weghorst.

The way the team played in the first few games was telling. Odobert, O'Shea and Vitinho looked every part Burnley players. They were playing with smiles on their faces. I can see all of them pushing for moves once they appeared on their laps, but they looked like committed players until they kicked their final ball for us. I wouldn't blame Odobert or Vitinho for pushing for moves once the deals were on the table - they were both great moves for them.

[woody]

Muric and Anass would appear obvious. They were both discarded and I don't expect either of them wanted to risk the same thing happening again.
Al-Dakhil - he went from being very much part of VK's plans, to disappearing from sight.
Berge is likely too. I don't think he had any intention of dropping back to the Championship.

The two that came later... probably Amdouni and Weghorst.

The way the team played in the first few games was telling. Odobert, O'Shea and Vitinho looked every part Burnley players. They were playing with smiles on their faces. I can see all of them pushing for moves once they appeared on their laps, but they looked like committed players until they kicked their final ball for us. I wouldn't blame Odobert or Vitinho for pushing for moves once the deals were on the table - they were both great moves for them.

The 4 players were named Muric said he'd never play for the Club again and would happily sit on his 2 year deal and do nothing. Berge , Oderbert and Amdouni didn't want a season in the Championship so we were actively looking for moves for them. Zaroury had told the Club in January last year that he wouldn't play another season in the Championship as he didn't feel he'd been given a chance in the Premier League. Weghorst and Vitinho weren't mentioned in this discussion. O'Shea behaved badly as soon as an offer came in for him. Both he and Zaroury refused to play at Sunderland.

[Benson]

O'Shea behaved badly as soon as an offer came in for him. Both he and Zaroury refused to play at Sunderland.

Don’t know about Moroccans but I was taught quite early on in life to never trust an Irishman.

[boyyanno]

Lots of talk about agents and players being at fault here but I see it as a 50/50- The club was open about its desire to sell one or two every year, we clearly marketed ourselves as a platform players could use to get better moves. It's hardly surprising those players don't want to stick around in the Championship. We did the same with Weghorst and Cornet before it.

Then there's others that were discarded as soon as we thought we had shiny new toys- Zaroury and (initially) Muric for example.

It's hardly surprising that the players in either of those two groups didn't want to be here for whatever reasons.

[Row x]

Lots of talk about agents and players being at fault here but I see it as a 50/50- The club was open about its desire to sell one or two every year, we clearly marketed ourselves as a platform players could use to get better moves. It's hardly surprising those players don't want to stick around in the Championship. We did the same with Weghorst and Cornet before it.

Then there's others that were discarded as soon as we thought we had shiny new toys- Zaroury and (initially) Muric for example.

It's hardly surprising that the players in either of those two groups didn't want to be here for whatever reasons.

I probably agree with most of that, but there is a way to leave a club, and refusing to play is not the correct way

[Goliath]

I probably agree with most of that, but there is a way to leave a club, and refusing to play is not the correct way

It's funny that the foreigners tend to be the ones accused or implied of being the bad characters. In reality, its impossible to tell who will behave respectably in that scenario.

For example, everyone suggests Tarkowski was a brilliant character, but he refused to play for Brentford before we signed him and ran down his contract here whilst giving questionable quotes to the media. If he was French I'm sure the comments about him would be different.

[Row x]

It's funny that the foreigners tend to be the ones accused or implied of being the bad characters. In reality, its impossible to tell who will behave respectably in that scenario.

For example, everyone suggests Tarkowski was a brilliant character, but he refused to play for Brentford before we signed him and ran down his contract here whilst giving questionable quotes to the media. If he was French I'm sure the comments about him would be different.

I don't think tarks was right in what he did, even though we benefited from it
If the players refuse to play, they should also refuse that week's wage packet

[ChorltonCharlie]

This is the context behind Tarks refusing to play for Brentford against us.

"It was in the opening months of the 2015-16 season when Tarkowski received the heartbreaking news that his mother, Janice, had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

He was once against impressing with Brentford but with his father working full-time and taking care of his mother, Tarkowski wanted to move back to the north-west to be close to his family. He and his representatives sat down with the club in October and it was agreed he could explore options of a move, with Brentford setting a fee.

Interest in Tarkowski grew and there was a thought that Brentford may be able to get a higher fee. The defender, however, had his mind set on a move to Burnley.

As the situation dragged on during January 2016, Brentford faced Burnley in a league game. On the day of the game, Tarkowski made Brentford and manager Dean Smith aware that his head didn’t feel right to play. It caused a backlash in the media with suggestions he had gone on strike to force a move. That wasn’t the case.

At the time, his mother’s illness was not in the public domain and Tarkowski’s full situation surrounding his move was only revealed later that month when he released an open statement regarding his situation. The game fell at an unfortunate time and the defender accepted his punishment when he was disciplined by the club.

His transfer to Burnley was finalised on February 1, 2016. Despite the situation that occurred just before his exit, he left Brentford on good terms and was thankful for the opportunity they gave him to develop. When he won his first England cap in March 2018, several people at the club — including the chairman — were called to thank them."

[Goliath]

This is the context behind Tarks refusing to play for Brentford against us.

"It was in the opening months of the 2015-16 season when Tarkowski received the heartbreaking news that his mother, Janice, had been diagnosed with multiple sclerosis.

He was once against impressing with Brentford but with his father working full-time and taking care of his mother, Tarkowski wanted to move back to the north-west to be close to his family. He and his representatives sat down with the club in October and it was agreed he could explore options of a move, with Brentford setting a fee.

Interest in Tarkowski grew and there was a thought that Brentford may be able to get a higher fee. The defender, however, had his mind set on a move to Burnley.

As the situation dragged on during January 2016, Brentford faced Burnley in a league game. On the day of the game, Tarkowski made Brentford and manager Dean Smith aware that his head didn’t feel right to play. It caused a backlash in the media with suggestions he had gone on strike to force a move. That wasn’t the case.

At the time, his mother’s illness was not in the public domain and Tarkowski’s full situation surrounding his move was only revealed later that month when he released an open statement regarding his situation. The game fell at an unfortunate time and the defender accepted his punishment when he was disciplined by the club.

His transfer to Burnley was finalised on February 1, 2016. Despite the situation that occurred just before his exit, he left Brentford on good terms and was thankful for the opportunity they gave him to develop. When he won his first England cap in March 2018, several people at the club — including the chairman — were called to thank them."

Not sure that's true about leaving on good terms. I remember the manager not being impressed (possibly Dean Smith). Also, this is part of the issue. An English player gets excused rightly or wrongly, wheres the Muric or Zaroury article for example where we get their side of the story.
I could see why both would be wanting to get out after their treatment last season, I'm sure there's more to it than we know.