Facial Recognition System at Turf

[IanMcL]

I was told about this about 6 weeks ago along with CCTV being able to zoom in on every seat.

I don't think they were under the impression it was being used though.
It won't be cheap having the specialist operatives.

Better comb my hair next match.


What hair some may ask.

[NewClaret]

Notes from the FAB meeting. It’s in the section relating to women’s safety at games:

[groove]

Was there any reason given as to why this was being considered? Did any of the FAB members ask?

I have no idea Leisure. I'm just going off what turfcast shared on fb.

[Guppyspotter]

I'm sure it is more to prevent mass casualties in high risk areas like stadiums.

[RammyClaret61]

I'm sure it is more to prevent mass casualties in high risk areas like stadiums.

In what sense?

[BigGaz]

You shouldn’t be handing over your card to anyone, that was stopped with Covid.

Tony did you see that the 'ticket wallet' in the App has an option for you to share a code with someone so that your ticket can be redeemed? It could be that I'm not understanding it right but that says they're ok with it being shared, no?

We’ve started using facial recognition.

In essence, we upload all images of people that are wanted into the database. I think in the Met it’s something like 14 thousand images.

The cameras will take a picture of your face, and obviously if you match, officers will come and engage.

The error rate is something obscenely low- from memory about 1 in 40,000.

If you are not wanted and your face doesn’t match any image in the database, then your picture is deleted straight away.

Of course I’m biased, but I think it’s excellent. If you’re not wanted by the Police, then you really have nothing to worry about.

It's such a tricky one is this and although in essence I am in favour, my position comes with an enormous wealth of privilege because as weird as this little island is sometimes, we are reasonable in our attitude towards in crime.

Now imagine if this was deployed and we were all from North Korea and you get caught not handing your full crop allocation to the government or you're a political activist in Russia, a Palestinian in Gaza and so on. In an advanced society, sure, it's no problem if you're on the right side of the law but this can and will be used for feckery elsewhere, even before you factor in whether or not the data will be looked after properly.

Let me tell you what else this type of technology can do other than the obvious ones like age and sex

- it can tell what sort of mood you're in from your facial expressions
- it can tell whether you are tired not.
- it can tell what sort of shape you are in
- it can tell whether you are ready to make a purchasing decision(!)
- from what you are wearing and what you are carrying, it can predict what you are likely to be doing/where you are going/where you've been
- It could tell with a degree of accuracy where women were in the menstrual cycle

This technology was here 10 years ago when I was consulting for Microsoft. I think sometimes people have a penchant for a bit of theatrics with progress and change sometimes but even as a technophile I think that level of surveillance is frightening.

The idea of course was sales. If it knew who you were and had your data you would get real time, relevant advertisement sent to your phone. If it didn't the idea was that you would be geo-tagged by the cameras and it would project the advertisement onto the nearest available screen.

"You look knackered our kid, did you know about Costa's new blend? Oh btw here's a 15% off voucher for anti-wrinkle cream from Boots".

As I say, that was 10 years ago. I dread to think what level of maturity we're at now. Allowing yourself to be surveilled under the banner of a safe and just society seems fair enough but it opens the door for further exploitation

[Row x]

Bearing in mind my picture will have been taken numerous times, by several different systems, for differing reasons on my journey to turf moor, once more makes no difference at all, unless I wanted to beat the club with another stick

[GetIntoEm]

So what for?

for security reasons, like the already existing CCTV systems.

[claretonthecoast1882]

You are filmed on the train to the match or bus if you get that. You are then filmed in the town centre. There is someone for the local paper taking your picture around the ground. There is CCTV in the ground, It is quite common for police to film people making their way to grounds or inside the ground.

On the back of this not sure this extra step is either needed or anything to be concerned about.

[dushanbe]

Bearing in mind my picture will have been taken numerous times, by several different systems, for differing reasons on my journey to turf moor, once more makes no difference at all, unless I wanted to beat the club with another stick

I think the difference is those CCTV cameras you are wandering past are collecting meta data rather than saying this particular person is in this particular place at this particular time which is a fair difference.

[Row x]

I think the difference is those CCTV cameras you are wandering past are collecting meta data rather than saying this particular person is in this particular place at this particular time which is a fair difference.

I was thinking more of anpr cameras, both static and mobile

[Leisure]

You are filmed on the train to the match or bus if you get that. You are then filmed in the town centre. There is someone for the local paper taking your picture around the ground. There is CCTV in the ground, It is quite common for police to film people making their way to grounds or inside the ground.

On the back of this not sure this extra step is either needed or anything to be concerned about.

But filming/CCTV is not the same as facial recognition. If the Police aren't involved in this, how will the club get a photo of every supporter's face? Particularly children, casual attendees and away fans?

[dushanbe]

I was thinking more of anpr cameras, both static and mobile

Thats fair enough, still slightly different to facial recognition though.

[Spike]

There must be an ALK employee paid solely to think of ways of annoying us
They should focus there efforts on getting us a balanced squad without making the interest payments rise yet again
Ticketmaster would spontaneously combust if it had to manage this!

[Row x]

But filming/CCTV is not the same as facial recognition. If the Police aren't involved in this, how will the club get a photo of every supporter's face? Particularly children, casual attendees and away fans?

Like the rest of us I don't know how this will work or what it's intention is, I would suspect it will be used in conjunction with existing CCTV for incidents involving assault, discrimination or any other offence, where the footage can then be checked with compatible police systems, but that's just a guess, I don't think it will be used for entry, or see who is sat in your seat, that's unworkable and pointless.

[Clovius Boofus]

I tell you something else that some people find intrusive - finding a photo of themselves published in an online newspaper while sitting down pre-match with no one else around them.

This is what happened to fellow Claret I know, and he was immensely peed off. He said he wouldn't have bothered if he was part of the crowd, but he wasn't, he was sat on his own.

I know people who won't go into some bars for the same reason. They say that they don't want to be photographed while enjoying a pint on a night out, only to see it online the following week. I'm not too arsed myself, however, people should be able to feel comfortable when they are spending their hard-earned.

Thing is, we have no right to privacy, unless we are on our own property, however, there are limits though, and you pay your money and takes your choice, where it's avoidable.

I think we need to be reminded that not everyone is comfortable living their lives like some kind of fly-on-the-wall reality TV show for anyone to gawp at.

[Row x]

There must be an ALK employee paid solely to think of ways of annoying us
They should focus there efforts on getting us a balanced squad without making the interest payments rise yet again
Ticketmaster would spontaneously combust if it had to manage this!

Why get upset, you don't even know what it would be used for, but I'll have a wager with you it will have nothing to do with Ticketmaster

[Row x]

I tell you something else that some people find intrusive - finding a photo of themselves published in an online newspaper while sitting down pre-match with no one else around them.

This is what happened to fellow Claret I know, and he was immensely peed off. He said he wouldn't have bothered if he was part of the crowd, but he wasn't, he was sat on his own.

I know people who won't go into some bars for the same reason. They say that they don't want to be photographed while enjoying a pint on a night out, only to see it online the following week. I'm not too arsed myself, however, people should be able to feel comfortable when they are spending their hard-earned.

Thing is, we have no right to privacy, unless we are on our own property, however, there are limits though, and you pay your money and takes your choice, where it's avoidable.

I think we need to be reminded that not everyone is comfortable living their lives like some kind of fly-on-the-wall reality TV show for anyone to gawp at.

I've been shown in the crowd several times by the TV cameras, didn't bother me though

[Clovius Boofus]

I've been shown in the crowd several times by the TV cameras, didn't bother me though

He wasn't part of a crowd. He was sat on his own.

[Mixedkompany]

Should help locate Mike Tresor …..

[Row x]

He wasn't part of a crowd. He was sat on his own.

Ok, I worded it badly, I've been shown where it was only me shown, or part of a big crowd, and once when it was just two of us.

[ClaretLoup]

The people running the club need to take up the game of snooker so that they might learn the principle of knocking in the reds before you go after the colours.

I didn’t collect my season card until the Plymouth game in October. They claimed they had already posted two cards out to me but they never arrived.

They need to get the basics right on data management before they bring in fancy ideas like facial recognition particularly given the farcical data breaches committed in the season ticket fiasco.

[Row x]

The people running the club need to take up the game of snooker so that they might learn the principle of knocking in the reds before you go after the colours.

I didn’t collect my season card until the Plymouth game in October. They claimed they had already posted two cards out to me but they never arrived.

They need to get the basics right on data management before they bring in fancy ideas like facial recognition particularly given the farcical data breaches committed in the season ticket fiasco.

Did you find out why they never arrived?

[wilks_bfc]

Tony did you see that the 'ticket wallet' in the App has an option for you to share a code with someone so that your ticket can be redeemed? It could be that I'm not understanding it right but that says they're ok with it being shared, no?

Think you are misunderstanding what Tony said

He meant that there is no need to hand the ST card to the turnstile operator to scan on entry

[AmbleClaret]

This.....yet we still can't sell peas with a pie.

[IanMcL]

Not in NU stand ... You just hold your card to scanner (right way round obviously) and person presses foot pedal releasing turnstile mech

Normally, I would agree. Ladrmt match i didn't get it quite right on first flash. Attendant took card from my hand and scanned it.

Didn't bother me.

[GetIntoEm]

just another thing for people to get needlessly upset about.

the club didnt/dont need to tell us about this.

[Loyalclaret]

Notes from the FAB meeting. It’s in the section relating to women’s safety at games:

Had to readthe full transcript in relation to this for context. I attended many gigs/festivals/music nights (often with my wife) so am aware of issues of inappropriate behaviour towards women. I cant say i have experienced it but just like females feeling threatened walking alone at night, I know it happens.

I was surprised it is an issue at football, the FAB details "We had a report of inappropriate behaviour towards a female supporter at a recent fixture " with a member of the FAB suggesting it happens regularly, even maybe more so at away games.

So, may be ignorant to this but still not sure how facial recognition would work without collecting everyone's pictures compard to the excellent cctv we already have?

[mikeS]

just another thing for people to get needlessly upset about.

the club didnt/dont need to tell us about this.

It depends how and what the club do with your personal data that's a concern I think. Some people may rightly object to having their personal data stored for the clubs benefit, particularly if this data is sold
It would have been nice of the club to have been asked and not told.

[aggi]

Why get upset, you don't even know what it would be used for, but I'll have a wager with you it will have nothing to do with Ticketmaster

This is really the point. We don't know what it would be used for.

The suggestion is for crime enforcement but it's the kind of thing that should have an actual policy.

[TheFamilyCat]

Had to readthe full transcript in relation to this for context. I attended many gigs/festivals/music nights (often with my wife) so am aware of issues of inappropriate behaviour towards women. I cant say i have experienced it but just like females feeling threatened walking alone at night, I know it happens.

I was surprised it is an issue at football, the FAB details "We had a report of inappropriate behaviour towards a female supporter at a recent fixture " with a member of the FAB suggesting it happens regularly, even maybe more so at away games.

So, may be ignorant to this but still not sure how facial recognition would work without collecting everyone's pictures compard to the excellent cctv we already have?

As you've read the full transcript, which 99% of people who have posted on this thread won't have done, did it say whether this is definitely happening or a possibility that is being discussed?

[aggi]

Notes from the FAB meeting. It’s in the section relating to women’s safety at games:

This was the month after they said it was being introduced. This was the original discussion:

General Counsel (Amy Wells)
The Club is considering introducing facial recognition technology at the stadium to enhance existing security measures on matchday with the ability to detect faces which have been put into the system and then alert stewards and whoever else it concerns if they feel like an individual needs to be apprehended. The Club needs to conduct a data protection impact assessment, an important aspect of which requires consultation with affected stakeholder groups including fans.

FAB
If people have done nothing wrong, they should have nothing to worry about, although there will be some initial pushback from supporters’ home and away.

General Counsel
We understand that no other club uses this technology currently, although we understand it has been trialled by Manchester City in partnership with the Greater Manchester Police.

FAB
Is this being pushed by Lancashire Police as well?

General Counsel
No, this has been brought forward by our Chairman Alan Pace and the feeling the previous meeting brought him. It is still in the early processes, so as well as this and our new initiatives that are being implemented for the safety of supporters, we aim to reduce the risk of any sort of harassment or abuse within the stadium. We will reassess the effectiveness of each measure after a certain period which could mean some measures not being necessary if others are effective.


https://media-cdn.incrowdsports.com/cf5 ... 542015.pdf

[Sproggy]

It doesn't matter what it is. It could be 50 pound notes being dropped out of a helicopter, if it was suggested by Alan Pace, the usual suspects on here would use it as something to have a go at the club about.

[GetIntoEm]

there ya go, doing it for the wellbeing of supporters. moaners, stand down

[Row x]

It depends how and what the club do with your personal data that's a concern I think. Some people may rightly object to having their personal data stored for the clubs benefit, particularly if this data is sold
It would have been nice of the club to have been asked and not told.

They already hold more data on you than most places

Name, date of birth, sex, address, previous addresses, friends, family, email address and much more

[daveisaclaret]

It doesn't matter what it is. It could be 50 pound notes being dropped out of a helicopter, if it was suggested by Alan Pace, the usual suspects on here would use it as something to have a go at the club about.

And similarly it could be a policy to chop the left hand of every supporter off and the usual suspects on here would be telling everyone they were moaners and whingers for not liking it.

[Row x]

This is really the point. We don't know what it would be used for.

The suggestion is for crime enforcement but it's the kind of thing that should have an actual policy.

So is it not better to wait till they say if, when, and for what purpose it's being used, and at that point there will probably be a policy, in fact I'd say they'd legally have to have a policy.

[Leisure]

They already hold more data on you than most places

Name, date of birth, sex, address, previous addresses, friends, family, email address and much more

But not photographs.

[daveisaclaret]

I wonder how it would have gone done if instead of telling supporters he needed to raise season ticket prices to keep Anass Zaroury, Pace had said he needed to do it to buy a facial recognition system.

[Clovius Boofus]

Thing is, we don't know what happens to the data when enter a town or city centre, supermarkets, or highstreet chains, not to mention all those loyalty cards that we love, social media and the many apps we download while at the same time willingly giving them permission to access nearly every aspect of our lives.

I'm not saying it's right, especially when it's something we pay a lot of money for, rather than the 'free' apps where your data is a commodity.

How many people on here use WhatsApp or Insta etc? Yeah, they are free in cash terms, however, you pay for them by forfeiting your privacy. Most people are cool with it, if they weren't, the Mark Zuckerbergs of this world wouldn't be billionaires many times over.

[Benson]

I've been shown in the crowd several times by the TV cameras, didn't bother me though

Are you the guy with his face painted claret and blue ?

[Row x]

But not photographs.

Possibly already have, certainly the ability is there to photograph individuals in their seat.

[Row x]

Are you the guy with his face painted claret and blue ?

Certainly not!!!
But I know I was caught at hull

[Leisure]

Possibly already have, certainly the ability is there to photograph individuals in their seat.

Do they have/need permission to retain people's photographs?

[Anonymous Claret]

As this is only being suggested by Pace and not Lancs Police, maybe the Fan Advisory Board could ask him some questions at their next meeting?

How much will it cost?

Will any of the data be sold onto 3rd parties?

Will the club use the data to market its own merchandise etc at the fan base?

[Row x]

Do they have/need permission to retain people's photographs?

I don't know, but cctv has been in operation at turf Moor for many years, along with almost every other place we visit, so I guess there's a policy in place to cover that. A sign saying cctv in operation is usually enough, and you give your permission by still entering.

[HalifaxClaret]

Concerning

What are you concerned about Tony?

Genuinely interested to know how you think it is going to affect you?

[NewClaret]

This was the month after they said it was being introduced. This was the original discussion:

General Counsel (Amy Wells)
The Club is considering introducing facial recognition technology at the stadium to enhance existing security measures on matchday with the ability to detect faces which have been put into the system and then alert stewards and whoever else it concerns if they feel like an individual needs to be apprehended. The Club needs to conduct a data protection impact assessment, an important aspect of which requires consultation with affected stakeholder groups including fans.

FAB
If people have done nothing wrong, they should have nothing to worry about, although there will be some initial pushback from supporters’ home and away.

General Counsel
We understand that no other club uses this technology currently, although we understand it has been trialled by Manchester City in partnership with the Greater Manchester Police.

FAB
Is this being pushed by Lancashire Police as well?

General Counsel
No, this has been brought forward by our Chairman Alan Pace and the feeling the previous meeting brought him. It is still in the early processes, so as well as this and our new initiatives that are being implemented for the safety of supporters, we aim to reduce the risk of any sort of harassment or abuse within the stadium. We will reassess the effectiveness of each measure after a certain period which could mean some measures not being necessary if others are effective.


https://media-cdn.incrowdsports.com/cf5 ... 542015.pdf

Thanks for doing that, I knew it might be helpful, but couldn’t be bothered reading another set of notes to be honest

I don’t really understand exactly how it’d work, maybe the club don’t either. Obviously early stages.

This was discussed months ago by the FAB and notes available for everyone to read so not sure why it’s just being discussed now. Sounds well intentioned and aimed at making the Turf a safer place. Which I’m all for.

[BigGaz]

Think you are misunderstanding what Tony said

He meant that there is no need to hand the ST card to the turnstile operator to scan on entry

Thanks pal I thought I must've had it wrong somehow

[CoolClaret]

This technology was here 10 years ago when I was consulting for Microsoft. I think sometimes people have a penchant for a bit of theatrics with progress and change sometimes but even as a technophile I think that level of surveillance is frightening.

The idea of course was sales. If it knew who you were and had your data you would get real time, relevant advertisement sent to your phone. If it didn't the idea was that you would be geo-tagged by the cameras and it would project the advertisement onto the nearest available screen.

"You look knackered our kid, did you know about Costa's new blend? Oh btw here's a 15% off voucher for anti-wrinkle cream from Boots".

As I say, that was 10 years ago. I dread to think what level of maturity we're at now. Allowing yourself to be surveilled under the banner of a safe and just society seems fair enough but it opens the door for further exploitation

Yeah doesn't surprise me one bit. This is why I really despise most modern implementations of web-based software - I don't think it's a force for good, nor that it improves our lives.

For around 18 months or so, I have been using a VPN, Brave browser and a (paid) e-mail service that doesn't sell my data, and it has been an absolute game changer for me.

I see literally zero targeted ads on my phone or laptop now compared with previously and I did notice that I was becoming a bit of a compulsive buyer.