Sam Morsy

[HahaYeah]

Yes, but It would be better without the politics.

Just football.

No Woke establishment crap.

[NottsClaret]

Did he say it was because of his religious beliefs or are we guessing at that?
Maybe he just had one of those days when he thought, I'm not doing it because there telling me I have to.

Yeah, I think Ipswich said it's religious on Morsy's behalf. Guehi's own message doesn't leave much room for speculation.

Fair point though, being told you have to do something, because Stonewall have pushed it through the FA would make me think twice. If a team mate said he was gay, I'd happily wear a badge or whatever to show support to him if that's what he wanted. I'd like all gay people to feel it's fine to be who they are within the world of football, just as elsewhere.

But Stonewall's position I believe, is that males should be allowed to play in female sports. I can't imagine my daughter for example wanting to support anything to do with that standpoint when she plays football. The 'trans' colours on the armband partly represent that ideology. It's a complex issue, and reducing it down to wearing an armband doesn't allow for any nuance.

[Walton]

Yeah, I think Ipswich said it's religious on Morsy's behalf. Guehi's own message doesn't leave much room for speculation.

Fair point though, being told you have to do something, because Stonewall have pushed it through the FA would make me think twice. If a team mate said he was gay, I'd happily wear a badge or whatever to show support to him if that's what he wanted. I'd like all gay people to feel it's fine to be who they are within the world of football, just as elsewhere.

But Stonewall's position I believe, is that males should be allowed to play in female sports. I can't imagine my daughter for example wanting to support anything to do with that standpoint when she plays football. The 'trans' colours on the armband partly represent that ideology. It's a complex issue, and reducing it down to wearing an armband doesn't allow for any nuance.

Which 'trans' colours feature on the rainbow armband pictured earlier in this thread?

[NottsClaret]

Which 'trans' colours feature on the rainbow armband pictured earlier in this thread?

If it's none, then forget all that, I'm onboard. You can't expect me to do that much research, ie, scroll back on page.

[nil_desperandum]

Would a man be announcing he was straight if he said he had a wife? Well it drops quite a sizeable clue to be honest.

Does it?
There are plenty of people in heterosexual relationships (and who have children with their partner) who do not identify as straight, or who identify as straight but are in fact bisexual or actually "gay".
I could list many examples from right wing politicians to tv celebrities, and of course, "ordinary" working people, who I know personally.
Recent studies conducted by the Family Pride Coalition reveal that 20% of gay American men are married to a woman.

[Shaggy]

The whole LGBT whatever letters they decide to keep adding, the whole movement can be filed alongside the equally nonsense BLM as social terrorists

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I find the whole desperation to reveal your sexuality incredibly weird, like vegans desperate to tell you they’re vegan. Gay people making a song and dance about being gay and coming out of the closet. Am I supposed to care if someone else is gay or vegan?

Until you've had to do it, or have someone come out to you whilst fearing they'll be a disappointment to you and worry you'll stop talking to them, then you'll never understand
I've watched my son break down in tears when he came out to me, he was terrified I'd be disappointed in him...
He realised he wasn't straight after we went to San Francisco and visited the gay area, but he'd been struggling with his sexuality for a while it turns out

People come out because they want people to know, they don't want to hide it and pretend to be straight

Famous people come out because it can help others to do the same and realise that they're completely normal if they're not straight, plus they no longer want to live a lie

Some come out because they're being blackmailed by others

People being gay etc shouldn't bother anyone in this day and age, but it clearly does when we see all the comments from people who claim to not care or don't want to know

It's nothing like being a vegan because vegans have never, ever faced any form of persecution, whereas gay people face persecution, inprisonment, torture and even execution in various places around the world.

It'd quite normal for certain people on this forum to show their homophobic attitudes and then there's a wonder why non straight people aren't open about it on here
There's no reason for people to be open in such a place because the homophobia often goes unchallenged

[ClaretPete001]

As far as I can see this is classic Woke baiting.

On the one hand you have homophobia and on the other Islamophobia.

The Woke are pretty F*cked, whichever way they turn there is a phobia to trip over so it will be interesting to see how many choose to start going on about homophobia without addressing the central issue.

Grab a seat, a bag of crisps and let's see who is first to criticise his stance on the basis of his Islamic beliefs.....!

[Bow]

Got to be the daftest thing I've seen posted obviously not a football fan, and not a person with any community spirit . Try telling West Ham fans that poppies and Minutes silence last post are daft ideas,

The military fetish in sports is a very American thing and has no place here.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

As far as I can see this is classic Woke baiting.

On the one hand you have homophobia and on the other Islamophobia.

The Woke are pretty F*cked, whichever way they turn there is a phobia to trip over so it will be interesting to see how many choose to start going on about homophobia without addressing the central issue.

Grab a seat, a bag of crisps and let's see who is first to criticise his stance on the basis of his Islamic beliefs.....!

Gods aren't real, so no religion should be above criticism for the attitudes of religious people due to their religious beliefs

Muslim people do a number of good things but also a lot of wrong things
See my previous comment about the persecution etc of gay people
Christianity still has form for it in various African countries and some less forward thinking countries around the world

All because of a mistranslated phrase...

[Devils_Advocate]

As far as I can see this is classic Woke baiting.

On the one hand you have homophobia and on the other Islamophobia.

The Woke are pretty F*cked, whichever way they turn there is a phobia to trip over so it will be interesting to see how many choose to start going on about homophobia without addressing the central issue.

Grab a seat, a bag of crisps and let's see who is first to criticise his stance on the basis of his Islamic beliefs.....!

Nope I can respect peoples religious beliefs and push back against the demonisation of groups of people based on religion whist at the same time be critical of the religion itself. Then if an individual person espouses bigoted views, whether they hide behind their religion or not, I feel no qualms or contradiction in criticising them for it

See its dead easy and nothing whatsoever to trip over

[mdd2]

Someone commented upon a persons" personal right in the face of religion. The problem with religion can be the indoctrination that starts at an early age which means people can lose objectivity. I know someone who follows the christian religous sect and is a scientist studied biology who hates darwin and everything about him not recognising evolution yet as a doctor she deals with bacteria that have evolved since the 1940's to be resistant to penicillin.
On the other hand i was indoctrinated to say please thankyou and to respect my elders.
some people pick and choose what their religion dictates.
Sadly an eye for an eye is currently the whole body for an eye and a tooth

[steve1264b]

I respect religious beliefs but my mind wanders back to yaya touri who complained about being presented with champagne for MOM.

Fair enough said everyone.

Guess who got convicted of drink driving later that year?

[pureclaret]

I respect the right to say and do what you feel is right, I also respect that the owner of a business has the right to say how and what you do , and wear and act whilst you work for said company, if you dont like it then leave that company and or industry

[pureclaret]

Nope I can respect peoples religious beliefs and push back against the demonisation of groups of people based on religion whist at the same time be critical of the religion itself. Then if an individual person espouses bigoted views, whether they hide behind their religion or not, I feel no qualms or contradiction in criticising them for it

See its dead easy and nothing whatsoever to trip over

I agree with your view

[GetIntoEm]

Gods aren't real, so no religion should be above criticism for the attitudes of religious people due to their religious beliefs

Muslim people do a number of good things but also a lot of wrong things
See my previous comment about the persecution etc of gay people
Christianity still has form for it in various African countries and some less forward thinking countries around the world

All because of a mistranslated phrase...

So we can criticise those religions or people that believe in them? But yet it's wrong to criticise Men who pretend to be women, despite science telling you that it's impossible?

This all completely bonkers. Everyone just go about your business, nobody really cares.

Despite all these teary stories you hear about people being bullied for their sexuality or whatever , it's just not the real world. Sure it will happen, but probably just as much happens to straight people.

[pureclaret]

The military fetish in sports is a very American thing and has no place here.

Not sure its anything to do with the Americans other than they to have a veterans day.
But the day was to remember those who did not make it home and the ones who did, Some football clubs lost not only team players to war but the fans that went as Pals. There was a program on a few weeks ago talking about West Ham who Lost 8 players in the first world war and the number of fans was amongst the biggest number of any town or city.
I am lucky in never having to face the horrors of war and whilst I am not a pacifist I don't want to encourage it either I do believe that showing respect is what it is about . The same for the arm bands etc I personally support it as I have family make up our society who some would give letters to.

I feel exclusion for any one is wrong unless the exclusion is to do with criminal reasons where they cannot be allowed to do or attend certain jobs etc
Its about respect and if your views are different to what, in this case Football are doing then I think you hold your tongue and show the respect, or in this guys postion give the band to someone else to wear

[fatboy47]

So we can criticise those religions or people that believe in them? But yet it's wrong to criticise Men who pretend to be women, despite science telling you that it's impossible?

This all completely bonkers. Everyone just go about your business, nobody really cares.

Despite all these teary stories you hear about people being bullied for their sexuality or whatever , it's just not the real world. Sure it will happen, but probably just as much happens to straight people.

The world really has left you quite a long way behind hasn't it?
The developed world I mean...probably room for you in some or other 3rd world dictatorship or banana republic.

[Shaggy]

The world really has left you quite a long way behind hasn't it?
The developed world I mean...probably room for you in some or other 3rd world dictatorship or banana republic.

The majority of people in the developed world are normal and arent into all the nonsense being pushed by a certain part of the deep establishment.

Being gay and transgender etc is not normal or natural.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The majority of people in the developed world are normal and arent into all the nonsense being pushed by a certain part of the deep establishment.

Being gay and transgender etc is not normal or natural.

Shaggy telling someone they aren’t as normal as he is must be a huge sigh of relief to them

[AlargeClaret]

I’d no idea gay people were some kind of persecuted minority who needed this sort of ludicrous agenda as if to justify their existence? That they’re not just regular people who go about their lives like anybody else ? I’d imagine 95% of gays find it embarrassing and uncalled for . Because let’s not forget they all dress in rainbow clothing so other people know they’re homosexual don’t they ?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

So we can criticise those religions or people that believe in them? But yet it's wrong to criticise Men who pretend to be women, despite science telling you that it's impossible?

This all completely bonkers. Everyone just go about your business, nobody really cares.

Despite all these teary stories you hear about people being bullied for their sexuality or whatever , it's just not the real world. Sure it will happen, but probably just as much happens to straight people.

Religious people are brainwashed into believing in a deity, despite it never being proven to have been there
Their religion then tells them gay people are bad and should be punished

The problem here is both Christianity and Islam have a huge issue with child abuse, which they seem to look the other way about instead of dealing with it

Those without sin and all that

Straight people aren't bullied over their sexuality, nor are they physically harmed or imprisoned

If you want to switch the conversation to trans people, because that's easier for you to have a pop at, then go for it

I know someone who's fully transitioned from male to female and I know some people going from female to male

Which part do you struggle with?
The fact that there are people born in the wrong body when it comes to gender?
It happens
You don't have to like it, but it does happen

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I’d no idea gay people were some kind of persecuted minority who needed this sort of ludicrous agenda as if to justify their existence? That they’re not just regular people who go about their lives like anybody else ? I’d imagine 95% of gays find it embarrassing and uncalled for . Because let’s not forget they all dress in rainbow clothing so other people know they’re homosexual don’t they ?

Search engines exist...
Feel free to search how people of a diff sexuality are poorly treated in various countries around the world....

Or not, whichever you'd prefer

[ClaretPete001]

Nope I can respect peoples religious beliefs and push back against the demonisation of groups of people based on religion whist at the same time be critical of the religion itself. Then if an individual person espouses bigoted views, whether they hide behind their religion or not, I feel no qualms or contradiction in criticising them for it

See its dead easy and nothing whatsoever to trip over

'at the same time be critical of the religion itself' - go on then..! I'm interested to hear your views about the errors you think Muslims make about their religion.

[ClaretPete001]

Gods aren't real, so no religion should be above criticism for the attitudes of religious people due to their religious beliefs

Muslim people do a number of good things but also a lot of wrong things
See my previous comment about the persecution etc of gay people
Christianity still has form for it in various African countries and some less forward thinking countries around the world

All because of a mistranslated phrase...

A mistranslated phrase and 2000 or 1500 years (depending upon the religion) of social engineering to re-enforce a social view.

No other ideology or social group could survive in modern society perpetuating these ideas.

And the irony is the very ideology that seeks to protect minority groups is then used to protect them from criticism about ideas that are no longer accepted in society.

[GetIntoEm]

Religious people are brainwashed into believing in a deity, despite it never being proven to have been there
Their religion then tells them gay people are bad and should be punished

The problem here is both Christianity and Islam have a huge issue with child abuse, which they seem to look the other way about instead of dealing with it

Those without sin and all that

Straight people aren't bullied over their sexuality, nor are they physically harmed or imprisoned

If you want to switch the conversation to trans people, because that's easier for you to have a pop at, then go for it

I know someone who's fully transitioned from male to female and I know some people going from female to male

Which part do you struggle with?
The fact that there are people born in the wrong body when it comes to gender?
It happens
You don't have to like it, but it does happen

I think it's clear that the bigger problem is the gay and trans community openly sexualising children.

[daveisaclaret]

So in the space of three hours we've got the views that gay people aren't discriminated against and that gay people are paedophiles.

Maybe we need some kind of campaign for tolerance and acceptance of gay people?

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I think it's clear that the bigger problem is the gay and trans community openly sexualising children.

Which they aren't doing, so try again
They'll teach people to be their trueselves instead of hiding it to appease rhe phobes

Meanwhile religious people tell their kids they're going to hell etc if they find someone of the same gender attractive, despite hell being a fictional place created to be the stick to the carrot that's heaven

Their religious leaders cover up mass child abuse in religious institutions or just ignore it when it's wide spread in their communities
The countries with the highest rates of child abuse are Muslim ones
The Catholic Church and CoE have been protecting child abusing clergy for a very very long time

Maybe those lot should get their houses in order first before worrying about adults sleeping with same sex adults

[GodIsADeeJay81]

'at the same time be critical of the religion itself' - go on then..! I'm interested to hear your views about the errors you think Muslims make about their religion.

Islam used Christianity as a template when it was formed, along with parts of other desert religions

So they took all the mistakes in Christianity and copied them

[GetIntoEm]

I'm not sure how you can preach inclusivity when you're openly insulting people's religions. Strange outlook

[Darnhill Claret]

You can be a religious sceptic (or reasonably intelligent) and still respect people with faith and people with a religious faith.
However when you you look at extremists, they are often religious extremists and quite often the facilitators of murder and war. And religious beliefs don't prevent sexual abuse.

[ClaretPete001]

Islam used Christianity as a template when it was formed, along with parts of other desert religions

So they took all the mistakes in Christianity and copied them

I've read the Qu'ran several time from the meeting of the prophet and Jibril in Surat 96 to Isra' and Mi'raj where the prophet flew on a winged horse to Jerusalem. So, I know how it emerged.

With all due respect, you are arguing somewhat of a paradox. The three monotheistic religions claim to represent the literal word of God. And so, unless you know the intentions of God then I'm not sure you are in a position to know what is a mistake or otherwise. And you cannot easily argue with 2000 or 1500 years of exegetic tradition .

Unless of course you don't believe in a God, in which case how can anything be a mistake that has no rationale truth to it. You can't mistakenly translate the word of someone who doesn't exist.

You see how easily you slide into irrationality when trying to negotiate identity politics.....? You claim to be an atheist and at the same time claim to know the true word of God.

Anyway this thread is done. Few are going to address the central premise and if they did it would get closed quickly, which is my point really.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

I'm not sure how you can preach inclusivity when you're openly insulting people's religions. Strange outlook

Religion has been used to oppress people, but the religions can't even prove their gods exist

Being gay etc is perfectly natural, but for 2k yrs Christianity and Islam have waged a campaign of hatred against gay people in the name of their fake god

Nothing strange about my outlook, I'm merely stating facts

[dsr]

Nothing strange about my outlook, I'm merely stating facts

No, you're stating your opinion. Yes, you are so confident in your opinion that you refuse to accept there is any possibility that you are wrong, but nonetheless it is opinion.

You said yourself the existence of God can't be proved. That does not mean He doesn't exist. Anyway, the existence of Jesus can be proved and we can use His words as our guide whether or not. (Incidentally, the few words he said about sex were not particularly hard line. He confirmed that adultery was a sin, but didn't condone punishment for it.)

[Devils_Advocate]

'at the same time be critical of the religion itself' - go on then..! I'm interested to hear your views about the errors you think Muslims make about their religion.

Why did you focus on Muslims??? Im critical of all religions but the reality is people pick and choose what parts of their religion they choose to follow. Take yourself to Africa and you will see people locked up and tortured for being gay in the name of Christianity. That doesn't mean that all Christians are homophobic because I know many practising Christians and Muslims who have no problem with homosexuality.

I think the world would be a better place without religion but if people want to worship a god and follow their rules then thats fine with me until they try to dictate whats right and wrong with what others do (i.e. being gay)

I might be wrong but you seem to group Muslims into a single entity whereas I cant imagine you would compare a moderate Christian attending a church service in Burnley with a Ugandan Christian wanting to lock up and torture a non believer in Kampala

[Devils_Advocate]

No, you're stating your opinion. Yes, you are so confident in your opinion that you refuse to accept there is any possibility that you are wrong, but nonetheless it is opinion.

You said yourself the existence of God can't be proved. That does not mean He doesn't exist. Anyway, the existence of Jesus can be proved and we can use His words as our guide whether or not. (Incidentally, the few words he said about sex were not particularly hard line. He confirmed that adultery was a sin, but didn't condone punishment for it.)

Absolute rubbish from start to finish. I cant prove there isn't a flying teapot circulating one of Jupiter's moons but I'd be a complete fool to base my approach to life based on it being true

[Damo]

Why on earth are we still singling people out based on whom they are attracted to or by the colour of their skin in 2024?
Just accept that people are different. They don't need a silly armband or a special history month. Just accept them for who they are you narrow minded clowns

[ClaretPete001]

Why did you focus on Muslims??? Im critical of all religions but the reality is people pick and choose what parts of their religion they choose to follow. Take yourself to Africa and you will see people locked up and tortured for being gay in the name of Christianity. That doesn't mean that all Christians are homophobic because I know many practising Christians and Muslims who have no problem with homosexuality.

I think the world would be a better place without religion but if people want to worship a god and follow their rules then thats fine with me until they try to dictate whats right and wrong with what others do (i.e. being gay)

I might be wrong but you seem to group Muslims into a single entity whereas I cant imagine you would compare a moderate Christian attending a church service in Burnley with a Ugandan Christian wanting to lock up and torture a non believer in Kampala

You cannot unpick your position with 'whataboutery' DA. The article is about a Muslim who is taking a stance based upon faith. If it was about Church going Burnley Christians who refused to support the cause of gay people there would be loads of people coming on here to denounce them and it would be all over the media.

Absolutely nobody would be saying oooh there are some really nice Christians in Ramsbottom why not talk about them instead because it would be pure idiocy to do so and probably lead to accusations of homophobia: quite rightly.

My point is not about Islam - it's about hypocrisy.

[daveisaclaret]

Arguing against an imaginary hypocrite is a lot more fun than arguing against anything anyone actually says, I guess.

[Big Vinny K]

Absolute rubbish from start to finish. I cant prove there isn't a flying teapot circulating one of Jupiter's moons but I'd be a complete fool to base my approach to life based on it being true

The only thing that is absolute rubbish from start to finish is this stupid comment.

Nobody in the world believes or bases their approach to life based on your daft comparison whereas literally billions of people believe and base their life on religion.

[Greenmile]

The only thing that is absolute rubbish from start to finish is this stupid comment.

Nobody in the world believes or bases their approach to life based on your daft comparison whereas literally billions of people believe and base their life on religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

[Greenmile]

The only thing that is absolute rubbish from start to finish is this stupid comment.

Nobody in the world believes or bases their approach to life based on your daft comparison whereas literally billions of people believe and base their life on religion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum_ad_populum

[Jakubclaret]

Religion has been used to oppress people, but the religions can't even prove their gods exist

Being gay etc is perfectly natural, but for 2k yrs Christianity and Islam have waged a campaign of hatred against gay people in the name of their fake god

Nothing strange about my outlook, I'm merely stating facts

"but the religions can't even prove their gods exist" which is undoubtedly true but it'd be a pretty pointless exercise if they could. it's all about having the faith & the unwavering belief.

[Rileybobs]

The only thing that is absolute rubbish from start to finish is this stupid comment.

Nobody in the world believes or bases their approach to life based on your daft comparison whereas literally billions of people believe and base their life on religion.

With respect, that doesn’t make one any more real than the other. Millions of people believe in Father Christmas.

[claretonthecoast1882]

With respect, that doesn’t make one any more real than the other. Millions of people believe in Father Christmas.

Wonder if anyone has ever seen Jesus and Father Christmas in the same room ?

I know Black Grape hinted that Jesus was a black man then possibly batman it might be that he is Santa

[Rileybobs]

Wonder if anyone has ever seen Jesus and Father Christmas in the same room ?

I know Black Grape hinted that Jesus was a black man then possibly batman it might be that he is Santa

It would be a bit self indulgent for him to celebrate his birthday so extravagantly.

[claretonthecoast1882]

It would be a bit self indulgent for him to celebrate his birthday so extravagantly.

But also the perfect disguise

[Big Vinny K]

With respect, that doesn’t make one any more real than the other. Millions of people believe in Father Christmas.

With reciprocal respect I was talking about the beliefs held by billions of people over the age of 5 !!

In all seriousness to use an example of something that nobody believes in comparison to something like religion is just a bit daft…..especially with the tone of that specific comment.

[Conroy92]

The only thing that is absolute rubbish from start to finish is this stupid comment.

Nobody in the world believes or bases their approach to life based on your daft comparison whereas literally billions of people believe and base their life on religion.

Whoosh

[Greenmile]

TIL Bertrand Russell was “a bit daft”