Russia Invades

[Clovius Boofus]

Putin won't stop until he's re-established the Russian Empire and has made no secret of this, yet we still have pro-Putin appeasing Quislings, even on this thread.

[CoolClaret]

How can you justify it Coolclaret When the country is in such a state.

Yes hopefully labour will help the elderly and kids but they need it now. The financial aid we have provided whatever the sum is (clearly in the billions) should be getting spent at home.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... %20support

Go and have a read.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Putin won't stop until he's re-established the Russian Empire and has made no secret of this, yet we still have pro-Putin appeasing Quislings, even on this thread.

What’s the answer then Clovius

Keep spending billions upon billions and letting thousands of people die?

Peace talks are best for everyone. It will probably result in a European army and better defence for Europe

[Newcastleclaret93]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... %20support

Go and have a read.

That doesn’t justify anything

Just tells me we are spending way too much time, effort and money when it should be spent at home.

[CoolClaret]

That doesn’t justify anything

Just tells me we are spending way too much time, effort and money when it should be spent at home.

This is why I think you're a troll, I don't know why I bother.

[forzagranata]

Most expert military opinion indicates that the next year of the conflict will likely see little change to the overall situation in Ukraine - in other words a continued stalemate, some small advances for the Russians perhaps and thousands upon thousands of more deaths on both sides.

There is no prospect of victory for either side - so surely it is only right and humane to seek some sort of peace settlement.

[Newcastleclaret93]

This is why I think you're a troll, I don't know why I bother.

How can you possibly think that.

Seriously what is the answer? Just keep the war going at any cost?

[Newcastleclaret93]

Most expert military opinion indicates that the next year of the conflict will likely see little change to the overall situation in Ukraine - in other words a continued stalemate, some small advances for the Russians perhaps and thousands upon thousands of more deaths on both sides.

There is no prospect of victory for either side - so surely it is only right and humane to seek some sort of peace settlement.

100% agree

[CoolClaret]

How can you possibly think that.

Seriously what is the answer? Just keep the war going at any cost?

Ukrainian victory, as long as it takes.

This guy ain't stopping, and when Ukraine falls, the Baltics are next - then it really will get costly.

[HahaYeah]

Most expert military opinion indicates that the next year of the conflict will likely see little change to the overall situation in Ukraine - in other words a continued stalemate, some small advances for the Russians perhaps and thousands upon thousands of more deaths on both sides.

There is no prospect of victory for either side - so surely it is only right and humane to seek some sort of peace settlement.

The Warmongering EU politicians don't want peace to break out. They are now talking of troops on the ground in the Ukraine.

[Bosscat]

Ukraine has already lost. It has lost for a while. People were told but keep believing western propaganda.

Russia also aren’t the bad guys they are being made out to be. Look at the US and its NATO hangers on.

OMG

[JimmyRobbo]

Ukraine has already lost. It has lost for a while. People were told but keep believing western propaganda.

Russia also aren’t the bad guys they are being made out to be. Look at the US and its NATO hangers on.

At least this makes your football posts appear less extreme.

[Colburn_Claret]

I’m old enough now to live through tough moments and public opinion shift from right to left and so on and so fourth …

I find it worrying at this time that public opinion in the US is what it is and there has never been so much division in our country and across the world in a time where we have so much information avalible to us it should not be possible but the tools that should move us forward are knocking us back decades.

Love him or hate him Trump should be no where near running a country nor should Putin

History can’t repeat itself but I fear it’s going that way

It should read 'in a time where we have so much disinformation ', and therein lies the problem. Without disinformation Trump would be nowhere near the White House.
The world is divided between those who believe what they see, and those who believe what they read. Those who believe what they read are brainwashed by conspiracy theorists to distrust anyone who gain says them.
It's a sad sorry state the world we live in.

[Shaggy]

At least this makes your football posts appear less extreme.

Yeah we’ll prove me wrong. You can’t

[The Shire Claret]

Yeah we’ll prove me wrong. You can’t

There is absolutley nothing to prove in your statement - the burden to proved any proof lies with you.

[Shaggy]

There is absolutley nothing to prove in your statement - the burden to proved any proof lies with you.

What at you blathering on about?

For the people that disagree with me prove me wrong. Ukraine has lost the war ans the US/west were the aggressors.

The US talking about reparations and mineral resources now from Ukraine

This is another Iraq situation.

[The Shire Claret]

What at you blathering on about?

For the people that disagree with me prove me wrong. Ukraine has lost the war ans the US/west were the aggressors.

The US talking about reparations and mineral resources now from Ukraine

This is another Iraq situation.

Comparing this and Iraq shows to me you must have a complete lack of understanding of both wars - which ever Iraqi war you are referring to …

And before you mistake me for ‘right wing’ I protested against the Iraq war and had friends and family that fought in it

Being ‘against the grain’ - doesn’t mean you’re right - you just have a different narrative

[ksrclaret]

Shaggy is one of those weird incel types.

Best ignored so we can keep this thread as intended.

[The Shire Claret]

Shaggy is one of those weird incel types.

Best ignored so we can keep this thread as intended.

That’s exactly what intend to do and had no intention to go off topic.

I understand and respect it’s an important thread

[elwaclaret]

I do hope the mods allow this thread to continue as a historical record despite some of the complete tripe certain posters put up. Their world view will certainly be fascinating for future generations to review and shake their heads should Russia be allowed to prevail.

If Putin believes he is winning he will not want peace; therefore if peace is taken it is capitulation by the ‘alliance’ (ie America); the question then becomes what is America getting out of it and can they still be considered genuine allies of what remains of the democratic west?

I’m waiting for Trump to stand on the steps of Airforce one waving his document and declaring “peace in our time” as Musk and Vance goose-step past carrying the ‘imperial’ Eagle as they aim to emulate Rome in Palestine… waiting, and hoping I’m wrong.

[CoolClaret]

I do hope the mods allow this thread to continue as a historical record despite some of the complete tripe certain posters put up. Their world view will certainly be fascinating for future generations to review and shake their heads should Russia be allowed to prevail.

If Putin believes he is winning he will not want peace; therefore if peace is taken it is capitulation by the ‘alliance’ (ie America); the question then becomes what is America getting out of it and can they still be considered genuine allies of what remains of the democratic west?

I’m waiting for Trump to stand on the steps of Airforce one waving his document and declaring “peace in our time” as Musk and Vance goose-step past carrying the ‘imperial’ Eagle as they aim to emulate Rome in Palestine… waiting, and hoping I’m wrong.

No, they aren't. They're a self-serving oligarchy that has no interest in building equitable alliances. We have to govern and continue as though they aren't 'on our side'.

[elwaclaret]

No, they aren't. They're a self-serving oligarchy that has no interest in building equitable alliances. We have to govern and continue as though they aren't 'on our side'.

Hard to disagree as we watch on as MAGA dismantle all the legal checks against them within their own country. We have to hope that enough resistance remains within the “Republicans” to fight what appears to be Trump setting up a dynasty not unlike their forefathers so opposed when under the guise of the British Empire.

[Shaggy]

I do hope the mods allow this thread to continue as a historical record despite some of the complete tripe certain posters put up. Their world view will certainly be fascinating for future generations to review and shake their heads should Russia be allowed to prevail.

If Putin believes he is winning he will not want peace; therefore if peace is taken it is capitulation by the ‘alliance’ (ie America); the question then becomes what is America getting out of it and can they still be considered genuine allies of what remains of the democratic west?

I’m waiting for Trump to stand on the steps of Airforce one waving his document and declaring “peace in our time” as Musk and Vance goose-step past carrying the ‘imperial’ Eagle as they aim to emulate Rome in Palestine… waiting, and hoping I’m wrong.

The only tripe is coming from those who believe that Russia isn’t winning or in the wrong.

You probably think this conflict started in 2022 don’t you.

Time will reveal all.

As for Trump he is looking to get a deal which suits the US to prevent the collapse of their empire, but it’s already too late to prevent that. Once the Dollar does so does the US.

[elwaclaret]

The only tripe is coming from those who believe that Russia isn’t winning or in the wrong.

You probably think this conflict started in 2022 don’t you.

Time will reveal all.

As for Trump he is looking to get a deal which suits the US to prevent the collapse of their empire, but it’s already too late to prevent that. Once the Dollar does so does the US.

Sounds like you look forward to 1984 with relish.

[JimmyRobbo]

Yeah we’ll prove me wrong. You can’t

Oh dear!

One line. 7 words. 3 mistakes. That takes some doing. I think everyone knows that Russia are definitely the bad guys in this. Put quite simply for you, they invaded another sovereign nation. End of story.

[RicardoMontalban]

Most expert military opinion indicates that the next year of the conflict will likely see little change to the overall situation in Ukraine - in other words a continued stalemate, some small advances for the Russians perhaps and thousands upon thousands of more deaths on both sides.

There is no prospect of victory for either side - so surely it is only right and humane to seek some sort of peace settlement.

The debate (and this thread) is littered with crackpot theories and nonsense like Russia being the sinned against etc. but it’s insight free stuff like this that baffles me the most.

Of course peace is the urgent goal. No sane person suggests otherwise, but a jumping off point where the aggressor gets everything they want strikes me a somewhat sub-optimal. A peace settlement process where Ukraine and Europe are effectively sidelined is unworkable, and a fairly damning betrayal of Ukrainian sovereignty.

The Trump demands of up to 50% of mineral resources in compensation suggests it’s more ‘blessed are the deal-makers’ than anything else.

[Newcastleclaret93]

The debate (and this thread) is littered with crackpot theories and nonsense like Russia being the sinned against etc. but it’s insight free stuff like this that baffles me the most.

Of course peace is the urgent goal. No sane person suggests otherwise, but a jumping off point where the aggressor gets everything they want strikes me a somewhat sub-optimal. A peace settlement process where Ukraine and Europe are effectively sidelined is unworkable, and a fairly damning betrayal of Ukrainian sovereignty.

The Trump demands of up to 50% of mineral resources in compensation suggests it’s more ‘blessed are the deal-makers’ than anything else.

Well your wrong there straight away

Coolclaret is calling for the war to go on as long as it takes for Ukraine to win.

[AfloatinClaret]

... Russia are definitely the bad guys in this. Put quite simply for you, they invaded another sovereign nation. End of story.

But that only happened in the real world, not in Shaggy's alternative universe.

[RicardoMontalban]

Well your wrong there straight away

Coolclaret is calling for the war to go on as long as it takes for Ukraine to win.

I make no assumptions of Coolclaret’s sanity.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I make no assumptions of Coolclaret’s sanity.

Either am I but your saying everyone urgently wants peace.

Clearly that is not the case

[RicardoMontalban]

Either am I but your saying everyone urgently wants peace.

Clearly that is not the case

Do you ever take a moment to take a breath and consider what someone is writing, or is it the two footed, hyper-literal option every time? It’s quite clear what I’m saying.

The status quo has clearly changed. It wasn’t an unreasonable position that during 22/23 Ukrainian victory and preservation of its own sovereignty and borders was a valid goal, nor was it unreasonable to think that with the support of its allies, Ukraine could achieve this. Events and attrition on the battlefield during 2024 changed that and it’s not hypocritical to now be of the view that a diplomatic and to this has to be the goal now. That’s even a strongly held opinion within Ukraine itself. Events change and sane people respond by revising their views on it.

But it can also be said that the manner in which Trump has picked up the baton is deeply problematic.

[Clovius Boofus]

I’m waiting for Trump to stand on the steps of Airforce one waving his document and declaring “peace in our time” as Musk and Vance goose-step past carrying the ‘imperial’ Eagle as they aim to emulate Rome in Palestine… waiting, and hoping I’m wrong.

This would have sounded utterly ridiculous a few years ago, however, the scary thing is that it doesn't sound so crazy in 2025.

[CoolClaret]

Either am I but your saying everyone urgently wants peace.

Clearly that is not the case

Of course I want peace - but I want a lasting peace.

Ukraine seceding to unreasonable demands and giving up land isn't a fair deal. All that would do would give Putin a greater 'buffer zone' and a closer route to Kyiv for when he would undoubtedly launch another invasion in due course.

[bobinho]

The reason we have Trump on the blower to Vlad is exactly BECAUSE the EU leaders (Starmer included) have been stood around talking but doing nothing collectively, and simply waving the “Chamberlain document” for too long. Everyone in the western world knew where Trump was going with his expectations of everyone pulling their weight - now he’s acting on it we are all panicking.

Trumps picked the phone up and started talking, all the messers are now suddenly interested. It shouldn’t have needed that, but due to inaction, it did.

[Pearcey]

The reason we have Trump on the blower to Vlad is exactly BECAUSE the EU leaders (Starmer included) have been stood around talking but doing nothing collectively, and simply waving the “Chamberlain document” for too long. Everyone in the western world knew where Trump was going with his expectations of everyone pulling their weight - now he’s acting on it we are all panicking.

Trumps picked the phone up and started talking, all the messers are now suddenly interested. It shouldn’t have needed that, but due to inaction, it did.

Would you be comfortable having Trump discuss and decide the future of our country? It’s next level arrogance from the US to decide that Ukraine should concede parts of their country and allow Russia to expand. In whose best interest is that?

[GetIntoEm]

I think Starmer claiming to be considering sending troops against the advice of trump is a big mistake. Can't happen.

[Colburn_Claret]

The reason we have Trump on the blower to Vlad is exactly BECAUSE the EU leaders (Starmer included) have been stood around talking but doing nothing collectively, and simply waving the “Chamberlain document” for too long. Everyone in the western world knew where Trump was going with his expectations of everyone pulling their weight - now he’s acting on it we are all panicking.

Trumps picked the phone up and started talking, all the messers are now suddenly interested. It shouldn’t have needed that, but due to inaction, it did.

It's not inaction though.
The EU leaders want peace as much as the next man, but they understand that any peace deal without the approval or acceptance of the people of Ukraine is worthless.
Whatever his intentions are, the arrogance of Trump to hold any sort of negotiation with Putin, and completely excluding the Ukrainians is unbelievable. Or it would be unbelievable if it were anyone else but Trump.
Trump clearly believes his own press, imo it's Musk who is running the country, he's just flattering Trump into thinking it's him. Whatever the truth we have a simple choice to either accept what Trump wants, which means selling Ukraine down the river, opening the door for further invasions down the line as Putin can openly attack the Baltic States knowing no one is going to lift a finger, and leave us all under the oppressive thumb of Trumps fantasies. Or we stick together, and create a new world order. One that leaves The US marginalised and still stands up to tyrants like Putin. Our over reliance on US protection has left us weak, but not helpless. I'm sure Putin thinks we're nothing without Trump, but then he thought Ukraine were nothing as well. We have to make sure at the end of the day That Europe remains united, in protecting each other, and protecting the likes of Ukraine.

Trumpism won't last forever just like Thatcherism. The quickest way to get the Americans to reject it, is for the rest of the world to reject it first.

[bfcjg]

In fairness to the American tax payer if America was a fragmented continent like Europe and some of the Southern countries such as Texas etc were threatened by a Mexico as ambitious and powerful as Russia would we as say a powerful United European Union be expected to keep bailing them out and offering security guarantees with our young men and women ?
This situation has come about because we have become accustomed to peace, spending money on other things as opposed to the military and if the statistics are to be believed hardly any young people will take up arms to defend our liberty , to much belittling Britain's history in schools etc and this is the result our leaders scrambling around like headless chickens. The GDP of the European members of NATO dwarfs Russia's so how the hell have our collective politicians in all these countries allowed this to happen, quite pathetic really.
That said America always looks for allies when attacking countries such as Iraq etc and the UK in particular join in attempting to garner favour with the " cock of the school " so to speak. Be interesting to see what happens if North Korea attack the South and China Taiwan at the same time ditto Iran on Israel, Trump might hear the engaged tone when he starts ringing around Europe for help.
It's a mess at the moment, but a very worrying frightening mess.

[Shaggy]

People are mistaking that Putin has waded in to take over control of Ukraine. If that was the goal it would have happened by now as they would have smashed Ukraine with Oreshniks and wandered in to pick up the pieces.

You need to look further back and the actions of NATO ( neo cons in US ) threatening the security of Russia, then the typical US modus operandi regime change of a democratically elected president.

Ukraine has been tactically beaten by Russia and now the Western Tap is being turned off they have no option but to concede.

Trump at least has sense in that he is wanting to do a deal with Russia rather than prolonging a conflict. Also The US requires resources into the pacific for a conflict with China in the near future.

[CoolClaret]

People are mistaking that Putin has waded in to take over control of Ukraine. If that was the goal it would have happened by now as they would have smashed Ukraine with Oreshniks and wandered in to pick up the pieces.

You need to look further back and the actions of NATO ( neo cons in US ) threatening the security of Russia, then the typical US modus operandi regime change of a democratically elected president.

Ukraine has been tactically beaten by Russia and now the Western Tap is being turned off they have no option but to concede.

Trump at least has sense in that he is wanting to do a deal with Russia rather than prolonging a conflict. Also The US requires resources into the pacific for a conflict with China in the near future.

Do you even know what NATO is?

[IanMcL]

People on here, who think that Russia are the good guys, are more than deluded, they dangerous. Ukraine is an independent country. Russia invaded. This is the first. Beware, all the Eastern Europesn countries formerly behind the Iron Curtain. Thie despot Ras Putin has a declared mission to retake all those independent countries. Trump USA will be the western equivalent, if we try and appease them. At the same time, if we are failed by USA, as is likely, under Trump, then we are an open goal for further Russian incursion.

[deanothedino]

People are mistaking that Putin has waded in to take over control of Ukraine. If that was the goal it would have happened by now as they would have smashed Ukraine with Oreshniks and wandered in to pick up the pieces.

You need to look further back and the actions of NATO ( neo cons in US ) threatening the security of Russia, then the typical US modus operandi regime change of a democratically elected president.

Ukraine has been tactically beaten by Russia and now the Western Tap is being turned off they have no option but to concede.

Trump at least has sense in that he is wanting to do a deal with Russia rather than prolonging a conflict. Also The US requires resources into the pacific for a conflict with China in the near future.

China aren't looking for a conflict with the US, they are much cannier operators than Russia. However they do want Taiwan and if Trump brokers a deal behind the Ukraine's back then they will see this as a green light to go and annex Taiwan as the US are clearly happy for Russia to breach the Budapest memorandum and take Ukrainian territory for their own.

[Indecisive]

After reading an autobiography on Musk (Walter Isaacson written), one thing that left me slightly concerned was the level of influence Elon had on Ukraines defences with him dictating how starlink could be used. Over the past 12 months this one man’s influence has accelerated at a scary rate.

The extent to which this one guy is pulling the strings is frightening. Hes already very publically backed a right wing party in Germany, and you have to be concerned about how much influence he’s having on trump with his approach to this conflict.

As an aside I’d really like to think the Russian sympathisers on here are in the massive minority. In fairness from
What I can see they are very quickly being met with the absolute disdain they deserve.

[Goalposts]

The level of understanding, history and intellligence of some posters on this thread is at a level even below MAGA in the USA.

[JarrowClaret]

People are mistaking that Putin has waded in to take over control of Ukraine. If that was the goal it would have happened by now as they would have smashed Ukraine with Oreshniks and wandered in to pick up the pieces.

You need to look further back and the actions of NATO ( neo cons in US ) threatening the security of Russia, then the typical US modus operandi regime change of a democratically elected president.

Ukraine has been tactically beaten by Russia and now the Western Tap is being turned off they have no option but to concede.

Trump at least has sense in that he is wanting to do a deal with Russia rather than prolonging a conflict. Also The US requires resources into the pacific for a conflict with China in the near future.

This is a multi faceted issue and not as straight forward as you suggest 100% NATO/ the west has had its grubby hands in this from the start but that doesn’t make them the reason for it though. Fundamentally it is purely down to Russia/ Putin deciding to invade and nothing else.

The problem with the perceived NATO expansion etc isn’t straight forward or black and white either that has mainly happened due to Russia having a very bad habit of invading it’s neighbours although we need to accept there is more too it than that.

The situation on the ground at the minute is very much a stalemate with very little movement either way but I find it hard to think that Ukraine have been tactically outclassed if they still have footholds in the majority of the contested regions and Kursk. Who will win in the end will probably come down to willingness to take losses and the ability to replenish them.

As for Trump he is not trying to help anyone other than himself his thought process is purely business and nothing else. I agree with him though that the UK and other European countries have been over reliant on the US for protection and hardware for too long hopefully we will Now start to redress the balance. I hope the peace talks work and there is an end to this with an acceptable settlement. I suspect it will either be rejected by the Ukrainians or we may have the fighting stop but getting dragged into a much larger European conflict with millions of deaths, sadly.

[Colburn_Claret]

I read and reposted a thesis on FB a few months ago, and I'm gutted I can't find it to post on here, it explained it so much better than I will.
Basically it was an American scientist, in the 70s no less, who forecast that one day in the future, nations would be run by big technologies.
He stated the dangers this would present, the disinformation, coupled with publics complete distrust of government and each other. He explained even back then, how divisive these technologies would operate.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but this guy almost had it pat, 50 years ago.

A simple search, couldn't find him unfortunately, brings up loads of recent reports from scientists over the last decade saying the same thing.

When politicians control the narrative/media as well, in this case X, Instagram, FB etc, and have the ability through algorithms to dictate what the reader sees, we are on the slippery slope to hell.


Not Ukraine related, but I've said several times on this forum, that if I had the ability to do just one thing, I'd ban U18s from the Internet. I know it's a pipe dream, but maybe one day we'll wake up and see that dangers.

[xxmunkyennuixx]

The Warmongering EU politicians don't want peace to break out. They are now talking of troops on the ground in the Ukraine.

"Warmongering EU" and the post above that about Russia not being the bad guys are fairly shocking.

The right in this country is fundamentally broken. I am guessing the above two contributors are Reform backing.

Old school Conservative values would be in support of fundamental freedoms, support of our military, support of NATO, distraught at the Trump presidency, distraught at tariffs and the breaking of international law. Comments from Major and Stewart both display this. Starmer is fairly centrist in reality and from that school essentially.

It is pretty simple. Russia is evil, they have attacked and/or stoked violence in several neighbouring countries. They have undertaken propaganda and directly influenced the political system in our country and our allies. They have conducted espionage leading to the death of people in our country. We deal with this in Ukraine now or the cost will increase and we have to fight it closer to home in Estonia, Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland.

Warmongering EU statements et al are at the very least unpatriotic if not treachery. I am normally pretty open and willing to listen but those opinions are properly ******* stupid. Expand your reading, stop watching GBeebies and listening to that frog faced **** Farage.

[Rick_Muller]

I dont feel that I'm qualified to post on this thread in an authoritative manner as some appear to be doing with little or no respect for contributors who are clearly very knowledgeable about the situation.

I would like others to take my approach and allow the informative thread to continue without risk of it being locked as it has been and continues to be a very good source of varied information regarding Ukraine.

Stay respectful, and ignore clear provocations.

[forzagranata]

Of course peace is the urgent goal. No sane person suggests otherwise, but a jumping off point where the aggressor gets everything they want strikes me a somewhat sub-optimal. A peace settlement process where Ukraine and Europe are effectively sidelined is unworkable, and a fairly damning betrayal of Ukrainian sovereignty.

The aggressor isn't getting everything they want. Ukraine will obviously have to be party to any agreement for it to work. The EU is largely irrelevant to the deal-making process.

Trump has simply got the ball rolling - nothing else has happened.

The over-reaction to Trump calling Putin is predictable but something needed to happen. The alternative is what? Three more years of grinding misery and hundreds of thousands more dead?

[CoolClaret]

The aggressor isn't getting everything they want. Ukraine will obviously have to be party to any agreement for it to work. The EU is largely irrelevant to the deal-making process.

Trump has simply got the ball rolling - nothing else has happened.

The over-reaction to Trump calling Putin is predictable but something needed to happen. The alternative is what? Three more years of grinding misery and hundreds of thousands more dead?

The alternative is appeasing Russia and giving them a bigger inroad to mount their next offensive when they've rebuilt their military - potentially causing even greater devastation and loss of life.