Modern day Aviation

[karatekid]

I’m not an expert but has passenger aviation moved on in the last 30 years? The reason I ask is that in 1991 I flew to Crete and it took just over 4 hours. Now over 30 years later it still takes around 4 hours. Modern passenger jets travel at around 450-480mph and after checking it seems they were doing this speed in the 1960’s in the early days of jet engine passenger jets.
I know we had Concorde but is there a reason why these Jets haven’t got any faster? I’m sure planes have changed a lot in terms of reliability and efficiency, but why not faster?
Look at the car industry and how it has moved on in the same time period.
Just a thought I had today, no more than that.

[agreenwood]

I’m not an expert but has passenger aviation moved on in the last 30 years? The reason I ask is that in 1991 I flew to Crete and it took just over 4 hours. Now over 30 years later it still takes around 4 hours. Modern passenger jets travel at around 450-480mph and after checking it seems they were doing this speed in the 1960’s in the early days of jet engine passenger jets.
I know we had Concorde but is there a reason why these Jets haven’t got any faster? I’m sure planes have changed a lot in terms of reliability and efficiency, but why not faster?
Look at the car industry and how it has moved on in the same time period.
Just a thought I had today, no more than that.

Well, it’s definitely a shitter customer service experience than it was 30 years ago.

[CoolClaret]

Efficiency makes more money than faster air travel.

[Oshkoshclaret]

The last 30 years of the airline business have proved pretty clearly that the average traveler would rather buy a cheap ticket to fly at Mach 0.78 than a more expensive ticket to fly at Mach 0.85

Since Concorde retired, for the first time in history, humans used to be able to travel quicker than they can today. This seems to be turning around a bit with Boom. Will be interesting to see how that pans out. I think they're for real.

[TheOriginalLongsider]

Pity they refused to sell Concorde to Branson.

[Vegas Claret]

Great industry, "We've got new planes that are 25% more efficient and are going to save us a fortune........oh and by the way we are doubling your airfare"

[ArmchairDetective]

I saw a post online the other day that you need to earn 120k today to enjoy the same lifestyle that 40k gave you in the 90's. I haven't researched it's accuracy. But i imagine most people either can't afford or can't justify paying for premium air travel.

[Burnley1989]

Engineers sat reading this thread and shaking their heads

[TheFamilyCat]

Planes can land upside down now. That's something.

[Bullabill]

Engineers sat reading this thread and shaking their heads

Yep, that's me, but just for clarity I have just one head.

[fatboy47]

Pity they refused to sell Concorde to Branson.

Give.

[fatboy47]

Currently in departures at Bristol.

I've seen more user-friendly cattle steamers.

[Quickenthetempo]

I flew with Jet2 last week and their new planes are very Ryanair like.
They used to be far better than budget planes for legroom etc.

Not no more.

[Clovius Boofus]

Pack 'em in cheap. I started flying in the early 1980s and the customer service was good, even for charted airlines. Same in the 90s. All this changed when the budget airlines started, and it became a race to the bottom. Mind you, at least it meant that drunken-drugged-up chavs could afford to fly.

[Row x]

I flew with Jet2 last week and their new planes are very Ryanair like.
They used to be far better than budget planes for legroom etc.

Not no more.

I always travel Jet2 and I agree the new planes do seem to have less legroom. The big airbus is their best one with just the 2 seats next to the window

[GetIntoEm]

Planes are far more environmentally friendly these days, efficiency and safety is priority over speed.

[evensteadiereddie]

Well, it’s definitely a shitter customer service experience than it was 30 years ago.

Not sure what this means but I use Jet2, TUI and Ryanair for holiday or city break destinations and the service, customer or otherwise, tends to be spot on.
Depends what level of service you're demanding I guess.

[dsr]

I saw a post online the other day that you need to earn 120k today to enjoy the same lifestyle that 40k gave you in the 90's. I haven't researched it's accuracy. But i imagine most people either can't afford or can't justify paying for premium air travel.

That's because prices now are three times as high as in 1990. (Inflation up 229%). But average wages have gone up 347%, so on average we're no worse off.

[Row x]

Not sure what this means but I use Jet2, TUI and Ryanair for holiday or city break destinations and the service, customer or otherwise, tends to be spot on.
Depends what level of service you're demanding I guess.

We use Jet2 4 or 5 times a year, and have always had exceptional service from them

[NottsClaret]

Working class people being able to fly abroad and see the world at affordable prices is one of the great things about the modern age (environmental concerns notwithstanding).

[deanothedino]

Great industry, "We've got new planes that are 25% more efficient and are going to save us a fortune........oh and by the way we are doubling your airfare"

Not much they can do about the insane level of taxation when it comes to transatlantic airlines.

[dandeclaret]

The biggest thing I've seen on flights, is people who think they know better, or can't follow simple rules.

If you want a bigger bag, pay for it and check it in - don't whinge when you get charged when it's oversized at the check in desk
If you want to sit together - buy the seats together, don't expect people to move so you can sit with your partner or kids - be proactive
When the seatbelt sign is on, it means sit down - not that you can go to the bathroom, get hit by turbulence and cause everybody else to land somewhere inconvenient.

Flight is a norm now, not an exception. Good customer service for me is minimising my time in the airport, and get me to my destination at the stated time, safely. Some of the budget airlines are much better at this, than some of the so called premium airlines (I'm looking at you Aer Lingus for starters)

[dsr]

That's because prices now are three times as high as in 1990. (Inflation up 229%). But average wages have gone up 347%, so on average we're no worse off.

EDIT - the wages have gone up 247%. Typo, sorry.

[ArmchairDetective]

That's because prices now are three times as high as in 1990. (Inflation up 229%). But average wages have gone up 347%, so on average we're no worse off.

Yeah I understand. It's a fair point. I checked the average salary change from ~15k to ~37k before posting. Didn't check inflation. But average house prices during that time have risen not far short of 500%. I'd argue there's about 30 years worth of people entering the property market that are less cash rich than in the 90's.

Almost forgot ... and as a result might spend less on flights

[dsr]

Yeah I understand. It's a fair point. I checked the average salary change from ~15k to ~37k before posting. Didn't check inflation. But average house prices during that time have risen not far short of 500%. I'd argue there's about 30 years worth of people entering the property market that are less cash rich than in the 90's.

Almost forgot ... and as a result might spend less on flights

[note see typo correction about wages up about the same as prices, not 100% more than prices]
Total passenger arrivals and departures from UK airports in 1990 was 101 million, in 2023 was 272 million. I don't know the split between domestic and international.

Go back another 35 years before that (1955), and it was less than 5 million.

(As for house prices, the effect on mortgage payments is a bit less than you might think. A chap I know bought a house for £60k in the eighties, his son bought one for £400k recently, and the son's monthly payments (not adjusted for inflation) were less than the father's. In the early years at least, interest makes up the bulk of the mortgage repayment, and mortgage rates were in double figures for most of the seventies, eighties and nineties.)

[tarkys_ears]

Pity they refused to sell Concorde to Branson.

He's full of **** and was just looking to make a headline. He was never gonna buy it.

Still waiting on his A380s with bars, casinos and swimming pools whilst I'm jetting around on his A330s...

[GetIntoEm]

There's newer supersonic jets coming. Concorde was an aging relic, and unsafe. Was the right thing to shelve it.

[ArmchairDetective]

[note see typo correction about wages up about the same as prices, not 100% more than prices]
Total passenger arrivals and departures from UK airports in 1990 was 101 million, in 2023 was 272 million. I don't know the split between domestic and international.

Go back another 35 years before that (1955), and it was less than 5 million.

(As for house prices, the effect on mortgage payments is a bit less than you might think. A chap I know bought a house for £60k in the eighties, his son bought one for £400k recently, and the son's monthly payments (not adjusted for inflation) were less than the father's. In the early years at least, interest makes up the bulk of the mortgage repayment, and mortgage rates were in double figures for most of the seventies, eighties and nineties.)

Fair points dsr. You may have disproved my theory then!

[deanothedino]

The biggest thing I've seen on flights, is people who think they know better, or can't follow simple rules.

If you want a bigger bag, pay for it and check it in - don't whinge when you get charged when it's oversized at the check in desk
If you want to sit together - buy the seats together, don't expect people to move so you can sit with your partner or kids - be proactive
When the seatbelt sign is on, it means sit down - not that you can go to the bathroom, get hit by turbulence and cause everybody else to land somewhere inconvenient.

Flight is a norm now, not an exception. Good customer service for me is minimising my time in the airport, and get me to my destination at the stated time, safely. Some of the budget airlines are much better at this, than some of the so called premium airlines (I'm looking at you Aer Lingus for starters)

Are you suggesting Aer Lingus are a premium airline?

[miele-man]

I usually fly Ryanair about 10 times a year to Malaga , sometimes Jet2 .
It’s pretty cheap at around £35.00 , not bothered about any service it’s just a bus in the sky , I don’t want duty free or scratch cards ,
Never really experienced any bad service , just bad flyers who seem confused with seat numbers, large bags ( which they have to pay for) and waiting for the seat belt sign to go off before charging to the toilet even though we only set off ten minutes ago .

[deanothedino]

(As for house prices, the effect on mortgage payments is a bit less than you might think. A chap I know bought a house for £60k in the eighties, his son bought one for £400k recently, and the son's monthly payments (not adjusted for inflation) were less than the father's. In the early years at least, interest makes up the bulk of the mortgage repayment, and mortgage rates were in double figures for most of the seventies, eighties and nineties.)

That doesn't sound right at all. What LTV? What term?

For a debt of £60,000 to have the same monthly payment as a £400k house, you'd be looking at over 30% interest on a 25 year term.

[CaptJohn]

Aer Lingus business class is very good IMHO. Always use them when flying US East coast. Not going across the pond this year so only book with Jet2. The reason being that my wife and I were in Marbella when covid struck and we woke up to a lockdown with planes being turned around in mid air. Jet2 sent out an empty aircraft to pick up all their passengers who were abroad at the time. Lots of the other low cost airlines didn't. Jet2 gained my lifetime loyalty with that one decision.

[Rick_Muller]

I’m not an expert but has passenger aviation moved on in the last 30 years? The reason I ask is that in 1991 I flew to Crete and it took just over 4 hours. Now over 30 years later it still takes around 4 hours. Modern passenger jets travel at around 450-480mph and after checking it seems they were doing this speed in the 1960’s in the early days of jet engine passenger jets.
I know we had Concorde but is there a reason why these Jets haven’t got any faster? I’m sure planes have changed a lot in terms of reliability and efficiency, but why not faster?
Look at the car industry and how it has moved on in the same time period.
Just a thought I had today, no more than that.

Here’s a good link with the answers you seek, but in summary, it’s Physics and economics

https://flyingbynumbers.com/why-dont-planes-go-faster/

[dsr]

That doesn't sound right at all. What LTV? What term?

For a debt of £60,000 to have the same monthly payment as a £400k house, you'd be looking at over 30% interest on a 25 year term.

You're right. Not my mortgage, so I don't know how it worked - perhaps the new one is interest only. It was what I was told - perhaps he just got it wrong or else didn't take account of the significant parental contribution.

Monthly repayment on a £60k mortgage at 15% = £769
Monthly repayment on a £400k mortgage at 2.5% = £1,795

Less now (or rather 3 years ago) if adjusted for inflation, but that will change as fixed rate mortgages run out.

[deanothedino]

You're right. Not my mortgage, so I don't know how it worked - perhaps the new one is interest only. It was what I was told - perhaps he just got it wrong or else didn't take account of the significant parental contribution.

Monthly repayment on a £60k mortgage at 15% = £769
Monthly repayment on a £400k mortgage at 2.5% = £1,795

Less now (or rather 3 years ago) if adjusted for inflation, but that will change as fixed rate mortgages run out.

Bet a £60k house from the 80s is worth a pretty sum now as well.

[deanothedino]

Aer Lingus business class is very good IMHO. Always use them when flying US East coast. Not going across the pond this year so only book with Jet2. The reason being that my wife and I were in Marbella when covid struck and we woke up to a lockdown with planes being turned around in mid air. Jet2 sent out an empty aircraft to pick up all their passengers who were abroad at the time. Lots of the other low cost airlines didn't. Jet2 gained my lifetime loyalty with that one decision.

I've heard their business class is good but their economy offering is very much not that of a premium airline. They also have a 2 class layout which I'd have as another reason they're not a premium airline.

[Vegas Claret]

Not much they can do about the insane level of taxation when it comes to transatlantic airlines.

wasn't talking about Transatlantic flights particularly mate, domestic flights across most of the world have gone up loads despite a more efficient aircraft.

[dandeclaret]

Are you suggesting Aer Lingus are a premium airline?

The way their staff behave, they like to think that they are.

[GetIntoEm]

If aer Lingus didn't have their good value USA routes they'd be equivalent of a 3rd world country airline

[Row x]

Aer Lingus business class is very good IMHO. Always use them when flying US East coast. Not going across the pond this year so only book with Jet2. The reason being that my wife and I were in Marbella when covid struck and we woke up to a lockdown with planes being turned around in mid air. Jet2 sent out an empty aircraft to pick up all their passengers who were abroad at the time. Lots of the other low cost airlines didn't. Jet2 gained my lifetime loyalty with that one decision.

We had the same experience returning at the start of covid with them, plus they paid out very quickly for holidays that were cancelled during that period. They rang me, and the money was returned in full the day after

[Clovius Boofus]

I've been on some short-haul Business Class flights (I wasn't paying, btw) where the only difference is a free drink & sandwich and a cloth curtain strung cross the aisle to separate you from economy class. Absolute bonkers that some companies waste good money on such frivolities.

[dsr]

The meals on transatlantics (American, BA, Aer Lingus, makes no difference) are appalling. They'd be better off getting a load of meal deals from Tesco and giving up the hot food.

[Herts Clarets]

By far the worst airline I have flown with is Wizz Air. They cancelled a flight back from Antalya in Turkey whilst fully loaded and sat on the runway, which was already delayed by 2.5 hours. We were off loaded back into a holding area with zero communication as to what was happening. This was just after midnight. Eventually all passengers started to get text messages saying flight cancelled, you can either rebook or claim a refund. There were no flights available with that airline for the next 2 days and no customer service support to assist. We had to go back through passport control to be allowed back into the terminal where they were tryign to put coaches on and take passengers to a hotel. We stayed at the airport and booked another flight for the following morning, though it was indirect via Istanbul first and landed at Stansted, whilst our car was parked at Luton. Eventually I started a County Court claim against them for compensation and refund of cost incurred which went through uncontested and 3 months later I finally received a payout.

[deanothedino]

I've been on some short-haul Business Class flights (I wasn't paying, btw) where the only difference is a free drink & sandwich and a cloth curtain strung cross the aisle to separate you from economy class. Absolute bonkers that some companies waste good money on such frivolities.

Yeah, not worth it short-haul unless you are connecting.

[deanothedino]

The meals on transatlantics (American, BA, Aer Lingus, makes no difference) are appalling. They'd be better off getting a load of meal deals from Tesco and giving up the hot food.

They're alright normally in PE and business.

[deanothedino]

wasn't talking about Transatlantic flights particularly mate, domestic flights across most of the world have gone up loads despite a more efficient aircraft.

Jet fuel is about 500% more expensive than 1999. Only so much increased efficiency can offset and then you have increased staffing costs and landing fees (airport dependent)

[AlargeClaret]

Back in the day BA were a real cut above the rest for service and in flight . Flying to the US on BA was a wonderful free booze fest , and Monarch were an excellent charter line often way ahead than their competitors for quality . Alas the discount airlines are pretty samey I’ve found . Easy Jet good for efficiency etc but bloody awful if there’s problems /cancellations etc . Though having spent a chunk of 90’s on internal US flights , I got used to the soulless “bus journey -esque” brusque world of cheap flights .

[deanothedino]

Back in the day BA were a real cut above the rest for service and in flight . Flying to the US on BA was a wonderful free booze fest , and Monarch were an excellent charter line often way ahead than their competitors for quality . Alas the discount airlines are pretty samey I’ve found . Easy Jet good for efficiency etc but bloody awful if there’s problems /cancellations etc . Though having spent a chunk of 90’s on internal US flights , I got used to the soulless “bus journey -esque” brusque world of cheap flights .

It still is a free booze fest, just now you were probably delayed and your bags are still at your origin airport.

[AlargeClaret]

It still is a free booze fest, just now you were probably delayed and your bags are still at your origin airport.

It is on BA , yes , though American lines can be grind to “ keep it flowing “ in my experience.

[ŽižkovClaret]

Some of the absolute crates Aer Lingus use on the Manc - Dublin route..... you find yourself surprised they are allowed to fly