Hannibal Issue

[jojomk1]

A big talking point on TalkSport this morning
Don't know if anyone can put up the content for all to hear
In White and Jordan show

[Marney&Mee]

Hannibal v The Cannibal!

Credit Forzanagrata

[claretonthecoast1882]

I can't imagine anything will have been said by dumb and dumber to help in any manner.

[mdd2]

there must be some lip readers who can spot the gist of what was said.

[Woodleyclaret]

Precisely that why I thought it could be sorted sooner .Certainly I didn't expect Osmajic to play for PNE till it was all sorted.

[bobinho]

there must be some lip readers who can spot the gist of what was said.

There undoubtedly will. Depends if anyone REALLY wants to know…

[claretonthecoast1882]

Precisely that why I thought it could be sorted sooner .Certainly I didn't expect Osmajic to play for PNE till it was all sorted.

Of course he was going to play and he should do so. He hasn't been found guilty or charged with anything up to now so why would he not play.

[mdd2]

Will they both play on March 1st?

[quoonbeatz]

Unless anyone else heard and confirmed what was said or theres another camera angle that captures his gob better, it’s unlikely there will be much happens with this, unfortunately.

It’s very clear he says “f*** you” a couple of times but that’s about it. From the tv replays it doesn’t look very conclusive but Hannibal’s reaction said it all.

[what now !]

i think both will play and i think it will be fireworks, i suspect Hannibal will get dogs abuse from the Preston fans, but i think this will drive him , i would hazard a guess he will score and have a T-shirt on underneath with a message on ,

also Burnley should warm up with no to racism t shirts on , that will wind the Preston fans up !!!!

[dougcollins]

Unless anyone else heard and confirmed what was said or theres another camera angle that captures his gob better, it’s unlikely there will be much happens with this, unfortunately.

It’s very clear he says “f*** you” a couple of times but that’s about it. From the tv replays it doesn’t look very conclusive but Hannibal’s reaction said it all.

I'm thinking the same.

[warksclaret]

For the neutrals this is a tough one-did he say it or has Hannibal not told the entire truth. Two big factors for me and Danny Murphy made the same two comments this morning. Firstly Hannibal reacted instantly when the player spoke to him, implying he said it as it was when he ran to the ref. There was no time delay allowing Hannibal to tweak the story to his advantage. THe second point is that when Heckingbottom was interviewed last night for the Preston v Millwall game, he seemed to be very much on the back foot and defensive. He did not come out with the line that his player refuted it, or believing his player was inocent.But as they said today-this has to be resolved before our cup tie

[Ashingtonclaret46]

One thing that struck me was what Paul Heckingbottom said after the match about Osmajic speaking a lot of languages and that Heckingbottom didn't understand a lot of his spoken English -----that strikes me as a possible get out for Osmajic.

[claretburns]

Unless anyone else heard and confirmed what was said or theres another camera angle that captures his gob better, it’s unlikely there will be much happens with this, unfortunately.

It’s very clear he says “f*** you” a couple of times but that’s about it. From the tv replays it doesn’t look very conclusive but Hannibal’s reaction said it all.

Football "law" is different though. Ex-Cardiff defender Ben Turner was accused of racism and he speaks about the case in detail on his Undr the Cosh episode and despite the "victim's" evidence being thrown out due to discrepancies, Turner was still found guilty because in football with the FA it is based on the probability of it happening and not having concrete evidence if it did or didn't.

[AlargeClaret]

Unless anyone else heard and confirmed what was said or theres another camera angle that captures his gob better, it’s unlikely there will be much happens with this, unfortunately.

It’s very clear he says “f*** you” a couple of times but that’s about it. From the tv replays it doesn’t look very conclusive but Hannibal’s reaction said it all.

That’s a very good point as that’s almost all you can see spoken , BUT Hannibal is indeed outraged ,and though he’s an absolute piece of work in the dark arts , I really don’t believe he’d make a false accusation of racial abuse .

[agreenwood]

I’ve posted this several times now, but the FA test is “balance of probabilities” or “more likely than not”. As a result there does not need to be conclusive proof.

Was Osmanjic mouthing off at Hannibal? Yes.

Would Hannibal’s reaction suggest something beyond regular football sledging was said? Yes.

Did Hannibal immediately follow the FA guidance and report it to the match official? Yes.

Was Osmanjic very close to Hannibal at the time (to lessen the likelihood of what he said being inaudible)? Yes.

The only mitigation is that Osmanjic’s pronunciation is so poor that Hannibal mistook a non-racist insult for racist one.

If based on the above the FA panel are asking themselves whether it’s more likely than not that Osmanjic made a racist slur, I think there’s a fair chance he’s found guilty.

[agreenwood]

I’ve posted this several times now, but the FA test is “balance of probabilities” or “more likely than not”. As a result there does not need to be conclusive proof.

Was Osmanjic mouthing off at Hannibal? Yes.

Would Hannibal’s reaction suggest something beyond regular football sledging was said? Yes.

Did Hannibal immediately follow the FA guidance and report it to the match official? Yes.

Was Osmanjic very close to Hannibal at the time (to lessen the likelihood of what he said being inaudible)? Yes.

The only mitigation is that Osmanjic’s pronunciation is so poor that Hannibal mistook a non-racist insult for racist one.

If based on the above the FA panel are asking themselves whether it’s more likely than not that Osmanjic made a racist slur, I think there’s a fair chance he’s found guilty.

The other thing to point out is that Osmanjic’s been at PNE for a season and a half now. Appreciate people will learn languages at different rates, but Preston need to be careful if they are thinking of going down the “he’s a foreigner who can’t pronounce English words very well” route. “Bad” and “black” (if reports are true) aren’t exactly advanced English.

[Spijed]

The other thing to point out is that Osmanjic’s been at PNE for a season and a half now. Appreciate people will learn languages at different rates, but Preston need to be careful if they are thinking of going down the “he’s a foreigner who can’t pronounce English words very well” route. “Bad” and “black” (if reports are true) aren’t exactly advanced English.

Also would have thought that sinking your teeth into the back of a players neck will probably be seen as someone who can be quite volatile and react accordingly. No doubt that will be taken into account.

[claretonthecoast1882]

The other thing to point out is that Osmanjic’s been at PNE for a season and a half now. Appreciate people will learn languages at different rates, but Preston need to be careful if they are thinking of going down the “he’s a foreigner who can’t pronounce English words very well” route.

Be a bit tough to stomach for some Preston fans with their conduct since the weekend. Comments seen include :-

Hope someone snaps Hannibal in 2

Hope Trafford gets hurt as well (I presume for showing support for a teammate)

Hannibal was making fun of Osmajic's brother which is why he called Hannibal a bad man (probably the thickest defence offered)

One of the mods on their forum has apparently been deleting posts defending Osmajic including a poster using the N word to describe going to the shop, and asking what is wrong with calling Hannibal a black man if that is what Osmajic did.


This is also the same fanbase that PNE have to remind their fans on a weekly basis not to be homophobic with their chanting. Good job they won't be taken into account as a character reference

[Goliath]

I’ve posted this several times now, but the FA test is “balance of probabilities” or “more likely than not”. As a result there does not need to be conclusive proof.

Was Osmanjic mouthing off at Hannibal? Yes.

Would Hannibal’s reaction suggest something beyond regular football sledging was said? Yes.

Did Hannibal immediately follow the FA guidance and report it to the match official? Yes.

Was Osmanjic very close to Hannibal at the time (to lessen the likelihood of what he said being inaudible)? Yes.

The only mitigation is that Osmanjic’s pronunciation is so poor that Hannibal mistook a non-racist insult for racist one.

If based on the above the FA panel are asking themselves whether it’s more likely than not that Osmanjic made a racist slur, I think there’s a fair chance he’s found guilty.

Replaces Osmanjic with Jay Rod and Hannibal with Bong of Brighton.

What's the big difference to change the verdict from not guilty to guilty in this case in comparison to that one.

[Jakubclaret]

Also would have thought that sinking your teeth into the back of a players neck will probably be seen as someone who can be quite volatile and react accordingly. No doubt that will be taken into account.

You could flip it around & bring the stamping incident into account if you view the whole shenanigans as both being as bad as each other. I'm not stating that's the case because I wasn't there but in some quarters mainly from the Preston persuasion that's the biased belief equally we are just as biased with our own viewpoints. It needs to be an independent neutral fair investigation to get to the bottom of what really happened if at all possible.

[DCWat]

Be a bit tough to stomach for some Preston fans with their conduct since the weekend. Comments seen include :-

Hope someone snaps Hannibal in 2

Hope Trafford gets hurt as well (I presume for showing support for a teammate)

Hannibal was making fun of Osmajic's brother which is why he called Hannibal a bad man (probably the thickest defence offered)

One of the mods on their forum has apparently been deleting posts defending Osmajic including a poster using the N word to describe going to the shop, and asking what is wrong with calling Hannibal a black man if that is what Osmajic did.


This is also the same fanbase that PNE have to remind their fans on a weekly basis not to be homophobic with their chanting. Good job they won't be taken into account as a character reference

I don’t know the background behind PNE having to “remind their fans on a weekly basis not to be homophobic with their chanting”, is it a specific chant that they have?

But for balance, it’s worth remembering that we too are subject to at least one, probably more, match day announcements about our zero tolerance policy towards racism, homophobia and offensive comments.

[Anonymous Claret]

I think Osmajic has probably said what Hannibal claims he has said. All the circumstantial evidence points that way.

However if it can't be proved I don't think that he should be banned. There is the tiny possibility that he is innocent and Hannibal misheard him.

He shouldn't be banned on 'the balance of probabilities '. It shouldn't be for the FA to play judge and jury.

It really pained me to type this message because my gut instinct is that Osmajic is a disgusting racist and needs banning for a long time but unless that can be proved beyond reasonable doubt he shouldn't be found guilty.

[claretonthecoast1882]

I don’t know the background behind PNE having to “remind their fans on a weekly basis not to be homophobic with their chanting”, is it a specific chant that they have?

But for balance, it’s worth remembering that we too are subject to at least one, probably more, match day announcements about our zero tolerance policy towards racism, homophobia and offensive comments.

Yeah aimed at Blackpool fans and their mums and dads, they seem to have a very unhealthy obsession with parents / families.

Agree with your final sentence too but they should remember theirs when playing the holier than thou stance

[jojomk1]

I didn't listen to the whole discussion but a few things from it:-

Simon Jordan was of the opinion it was a "he said, she said" scenario so very difficult to prove one way or the other although the FA could come down on the "possibility" it happened as described

Both Jordan and Danny Murphy acknowledged the surprise, even shock on Hannibal's face so he wasn't just playing this up, but the caveat still being that Hannibal was shocked with what he "thought" he had heard - unless others also confirmed they had heard the remarks

And Jim White decided this was a perfect reason for all players to be "mic'd" up during games

[Goliath]

I didn't listen to the whole discussion but a few things from it:-

Simon Jordan was of the opinion it was a "he said, she said" scenario so very difficult to prove one way or the other although the FA could come down on the "possibility" it happened as described

Both Jordan and Danny Murphy acknowledged the surprise, even shock on Hannibal's face so he wasn't just playing this up, but the caveat still being that Hannibal was shocked with what he "thought" he had heard - unless others also confirmed they had heard the remarks

And Jim White decided this was a perfect reason for all players to be "mic'd" up during games

Absolutely classic Jim White. Bet he doesn't even believe that himself.

[Sproggy]

>It shouldn't be for the FA to play judge and jury.

Given the FA have a judicial framework to deal with disciplinary matters, it probably should.

[Anonymous Claret]

>It shouldn't be for the FA to play judge and jury.

Given the FA have a judicial framework to deal with disciplinary matters, it probably should.

Yeah, a bit of a silly statement from me

I stand by the fact that he shouldn't be found guilty unless it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt

[Stonehouse]

Absolutely classic Jim White. Bet he doesn't even believe that himself.

Next they’ll be doing live interviews whilst the players are out on the pitch and they’ll all wear body cams .

[JimmyRobbo]

Well, even I could tell what a few of the words were. It was quite clear to lip-read.

See if HM's version matches those. That's a starting point. See if Osmajic's match, too.

[agreenwood]

Replaces Osmanjic with Jay Rod and Hannibal with Bong of Brighton.

What's the big difference to change the verdict from not guilty to guilty in this case in comparison to that one.

It’s a fair point, but without reading the whole FA judgement from the Bong-Rodriguez incident, it’s hard to say if the circumstances are directly comparable. It’s also 7 years ago. Attitudes, approaches and procedures can change.

[jojomk1]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AszzujmusLI

Discussion starts 35.25 into broadcast

[Sproggy]

Yeah, a bit of a silly statement from me

I stand by the fact that he shouldn't be found guilty unless it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt

Yep. Unless someone heard it, it's going to be difficult despite the balance of probablility lying with Hannibal based on the circumstantial stuff we've seen.

[dougcollins]

Isn't that how Civil Courts work, balance of probability as opposed to hard evidence?

[Anonymous Claret]

Isn't that how Civil Courts work, balance of probability as opposed to hard evidence?

It is I think.

It doesn't mean that it is right though.

I think he is guilty but I could be wrong.

If there is any reasonable doubt he should be cleared.

[Rick_Muller]

Replaces Osmanjic with Jay Rod and Hannibal with Bong of Brighton.

What's the big difference to change the verdict from not guilty to guilty in this case in comparison to that one.

I’ve considered that viewpoint and concluded to myself that the main difference is that Jay Rod has been and continues to be a player with high levels of professionalism and morals; whereas Osmanjic has recently been guilty of biting another human being live on TV.

The comparison is not really valid but I understand why some would make it.

[agreenwood]

It is I think.

It doesn't mean that it is right though.

I think he is guilty but I could be wrong.

If there is any reasonable doubt he should be cleared.

It’s unlikely he’ll be found not guilty unless there’s a key piece of evidence that shows he definitely didn’t make a racist remark. He’ll be found guilty or the case will be “not proven”.

[bobinho]

One thing that struck me was what Paul Heckingbottom said after the match about Osmajic speaking a lot of languages and that Heckingbottom didn't understand a lot of his spoken English -----that strikes me as a possible get out for Osmajic.

That’s why Heckingbottom said it…

[Goliath]

I’ve considered that viewpoint and concluded to myself that the main difference is that Jay Rod has been and continues to be a player with high levels of professionalism and morals; whereas Osmanjic has recently been guilty of biting another human being live on TV.

The comparison is not really valid but I understand why some would make it.

Right. Him biting another player does bring his character into question but doesn't mean he's guilty, or even suggest he's racist. I do think it's likely he said something racist but unless it can be proven I don't personally think he should be found guilty of anything.
It's 2 people who's first language is not English, it very much could be a misunderstanding.

[Burnley1989]

As has been mentioned, Jay got accused of it with Bong and the Jay I know wouldn't have said it and it wound me up when the accusation was made.
Do we just say, ah well he's from Burnley so it's probably true (like other fans did)

[Jakubclaret]

I’ve considered that viewpoint and concluded to myself that the main difference is that Jay Rod has been and continues to be a player with high levels of professionalism and morals; whereas Osmanjic has recently been guilty of biting another human being live on TV.

The comparison is not really valid but I understand why some would make it.

Jay Rod has been about a lot longer & is older a senior of about 10 years aside of the maturity, Jay has spent all his life here playing football whereas MO hasn’t been here 18 months. There’s plenty of time for him to learn the error of his ways & realise the way he’s going about things are unacceptable. Wisdom comes with time when he’s Jays age he won’t be doing the same sort of antics.

[daveisaclaret]

No idea if Jay did it but one noteworthy thing from the defence is the list of character witnesses which included former managers of his Howe and Pochettino and former teammate Adam Lallana. Might suspect that with a teammate supposedly apologising for his behaviour and a bite on his rapsheet, good character might not be such a boon for Osmajic's defence.

[Jakubclaret]

No idea if Jay did it but one noteworthy thing from the defence is the list of character witnesses which included former managers of his Howe and Pochettino and former teammate Adam Lallana. Might suspect that with a teammate supposedly apologising for his behaviour and a bite on his rapsheet, good character might not be such a boon for Osmajic's defence.

My understanding is the preston player checked in on a human level to see if HM was ok & not necessarily an implication of guilt & who can say who’ll step forward to assist MO with a character reference. We are assuming nobody but we don’t really know.

[agreenwood]

Jay’s hearing written reasons…

Basically, they couldn’t separate the two versions of events. It went in Jay’s favour that what he claimed to have said was entirely consistent with his hand gesture. Not sure the ref covered himself in glory either in terms of how he recorded Bong’s words to him on the day.

It was 7 years ago tho and the way the ref dealt with the incident on Saturday shows how much more procedure plays a part these days.

https://www.thefa.com/-/media/thefacom- ... asons.ashx

[Lu-tze]

I’ll repeat what I said on the thread that got deleted

I know we’re biased in that a lot of us knew it was totally out of character for jay but I always thought his version of events was totally plausible- someone shouting in your face and responding with ‘your breath effing stinks’- not big or clever but something similar to what we’ve all heard playing football.

Equally plausible was that Bong’s claim was made in good faith, let’s face it a Burnley accent is not easily understood by most people never mind someone for whom English is not their first language.

I always just felt that ‘you’re black and you stink’ was not something even a racist pr!ck would have been likely to say, ‘eff off you black whatever’ or the like would have been far more plausible al la John Terry, Suarez etc.

Which brings us to ozmajic- are we really buying that he said ‘eff you eff you…….you bad man’! I mean come on!! It’s just not plausible in anyway shape or form!

It was really sad to me that no footage was ever found to prove it either way in jay’s case as it hung over him and Bong for the rest of their careers when in all likelihood neither of them did anything wrong and it did neither of them any favours and brought the worst out in both sets of fans.

I really hope footage can be found in this case and clear it up beyond doubt for the sake of everyone involved.

[Jakubclaret]

I’ll repeat what I said on the thread that got deleted

I know we’re biased in that a lot of us knew it was totally out of character for jay but I always thought his version of events was totally plausible- someone shouting in your face and responding with ‘your breath effing stinks’- not big or clever but something similar to what we’ve all heard playing football.

Equally plausible was that Bong’s claim was made in good faith, let’s face it a Burnley accent is not easily understood by most people never mind someone for whom English is not their first language.

I always just felt that ‘you’re black and you stink’ was not something even a racist pr!ck would have been likely to say, ‘eff off you black whatever’ or the like would have been far more plausible al la John Terry, Suarez etc.

Which brings us to ozmajic- are we really buying that he said ‘eff you eff you…….you bad man’! I mean come on!! It’s just not plausible in anyway shape or form!

It was really sad to me that no footage was ever found to prove it either way in jay’s case as it hung over him and Bong for the rest of their careers when in all likelihood neither of them did anything wrong and it did neither of them any favours and brought the worst out in both sets of fans.

I really hope footage can be found in this case and clear it up beyond doubt for the sake of everyone involved.

If we are to view how bong interpreted JR alleged remarks it's also wise to consider how HM interpreted MO alleged remarks. Assuming it was all in English it's easier for 2 people to be more mistaken when it's not their mother tongue than somebody english & somebody from Cameroon.

[Lu-tze]

If we are to view how bong interpreted JR alleged remarks it's also wise to consider how HM interpreted MO alleged remarks. Assuming it was all in English it's easier for 2 people to be more mistaken when it's not their mother tongue than somebody english & somebody from Cameroon.

I think the issue is less what Hannibal thought he heard and more that Ozmajic’s defence is that what he said was ‘eff you, eff you… you bad man’.
You know, that well known term of abuse on a a football pitch-‘You Bad Man’!!

[Jakubclaret]

I think the issue is less what Hannibal thought he heard and more that Ozmajic’s defence is that what he said was ‘eff you, eff you… you bad man’.
You know, that well known term of abuse on a a football pitch-‘You Bad Man’!!

It does seem flimsy but I don't know what HM grasp of english is like that's what it might hinge on.

[northeastclaret]

Ozmajic denied biting a Rovers player, obviously the footage which eventually came out showed he was a liar as well as committing the offence he denied.
In the heat of the moment he obviously loses it and this is clearly another example of him lying in an attempt to get out of a situation he obviously regrets.

[agreenwood]

It does seem flimsy but I don't know what HM grasp of english is like that's what it might hinge on.

He’s been here for 6 years and speaks English pretty fluently. I reckon he’ll know the difference between a racist slur and a non-racist slur.