Russia Invades

[Falcon]

Trump has just called Zelensky a 'dictator' - my eyes can't roll hard enough

[CoolClaret]

3 weeks to capture Saddam sure but that wasn’t the end, was it? UK troops didn’t withdraw until 2011. Saddam was killed in 2006 and captured in 2003. What about the air strikes against Isis in 2016-2018?

As for people in the military, you tried to turn my post into some anti British military thing that it wasn’t, I have family in the military, they’re simply doing as instructed and civilians are sadly collateral in war.

I just find the whole moral high ground thing, hilarious.

Well, don't falsely equate the actions of a military that indiscriminately bombs and flattens cities to one that is actually following rules of engagement.

The brutal reality of war inevitably claims innocent lives, but attempts to justify Russia's military actions through false equivalencies and whataboutism really does show the success of Putin's long-running disinformation campaigns and the effect that troll farms have had. Sad.

[Bow]

Trump has never been quiet about his admiration for Putin, so it was obvious when he came to power this would happen.

He will give Russia what it wants and throw Ukraine under the bus, selling it as a victory for peace to the gullible.

[Firthy]

Trump has never been quiet about his admiration for Putin, so it was obvious when he came to power this would happen.

He will give Russia what it wants and throw Ukraine under the bus, selling it as a victory for peace to the gullible.

Not if Ukraine and Europe tell him to butt out. Highly unlikely but best scenario

[bfcjg]

It makes you wonder if the KGB do have that incriminating tape of Trump that was rumoured a few years ago.
Obviously I don't want it to be a political anti Trump post but in the context of the war Trumps behaviour has been like that of a Russian apologist.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38589427

[gandhisflipflop]

Trump has just called Zelensky a 'dictator' - my eyes can't roll hard enough

When is the next Ukrainian election?

[Rick_Muller]

When is the next Ukrainian election?

Not a valid argument. I don’t believe our country held elections when at war, so why would you expect Ukraine to do so.

[gandhisflipflop]

Not a valid argument. I don’t believe our country held elections when at war, so why would you expect Ukraine to do so.

Was zelynskyy democratically elected? Genuine question by the way.

[Andy_G]

Was zelynskyy democratically elected? Genuine question by the way.

Yes he was.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-48007487

[elwaclaret]

Thanks for quoting my response, where I cleared up my original post wasn’t an anti British armed forces thing.

My clean up response was deleted by elwaclaret but my original post wasn’t, funny that eh? Almost intentionally manipulating posts to make me look a certain way.

Not the case at all. There is a moderator post asking people to stop going around in circles. If moderation is ignored the thread will be pulled. I want this thread to continue, do you?

[elwaclaret]

When is the next Ukrainian election?

It is standard practice during times of war to suspend elections. Polling booths are targets. Elections were suspended during the wars here in Britain. The last Ukraine democratic election was overwhelmingly in favour of their president. Opinion polls suggest he remains massively popular there… his mandate is stronger the Trumps and certainly more democratic than Putin’s election.

ANDREW NEIL - “Trump calls Zelensky a dictator. Which is untrue. He was elected on a landslide, with a bigger majority than Trump in the US and currently enjoys higher approval ratings than Trump.
Putin, of course, is a dictator. The real deal. Can anybody show me where Trump has called him a dictator?”

https://x.com/afneil/status/18922818254 ... XbpxEsmRVg

[MDWat]

I moved this thread for a couple of reasons;

1. To ensure any necessary posts were removed off the back of some complaints
2. To leave a bit of breathing space given the topic had become quite emotive.

I’ve restored it now, so please crack on and respect each other on a thread which carries a lot of importance.

I’ve noted the comments on the other thread and where possible, where such actions are taken, the mods will provide information on this if they deem it necessary/appropriate. Appreciate the feedback.

[Claretnick]

Good to see the thread back..

[claretonthecoast1882]

I moved this thread for a couple of reasons;

1. To ensure any necessary posts were removed off the back of some complaints
2. To leave a bit of breathing space given the topic had become quite emotive.

I’ve restored it now, so please crack on and respect each other on a thread which carries a lot of importance.

I’ve noted the comments on the other thread and where possible, where such actions are taken, the mods will provide information on this if they deem it necessary/appropriate. Appreciate the feedback.

Nice one MD

[summitclaret]

It must be a nightmare to moderate. Thank you mods for your continued work.

[NewClaret]

Thank you MD.

[Stalbansclaret]

Thank you

[Buxtonclaret]

Your efforts on this board are greatly appreciated, MD.

[MrTopTier]

The institute for Computer Engineering in Moscow has mysteriously gone up in flames last evening. the institute specialist in developing systems critical to national security, geo information and navigating systems.

Well done Mods and MD in particular

[RalphCoatesComb]

Thank you MD

[IanMcL]

Trump is a menace to the west and an obvious imbecile, narcissist. Mr Putin tells him he is great and if they can sort this, there can be Trump towers everywhere and he is sold.

He then spews out Putin lies and propaganda, as though they are tablets from God. This man is a Russian asset. A danger to Europe.

[burnley007]

The current trend of making Zelensky out to be the villain would be hilarious if people didn't actually believe it.

The propaganda machine is absolutely fascinating to watch.

[FCBurnley]

The great thing about this thread is that it is totally unbiased.

[Poulton-le-Claret]

The institute for Computer Engineering in Moscow has mysteriously gone up in flames last evening. the institute specialist in developing systems critical to national security, geo information and navigating systems.

Well done Mods and MD in particular

Are you suggesting the Mods and MD were behind the attack?

[elwaclaret]

The great thing about this thread is that it is totally unbiased.

Glad you agree, deletions are made on sourcing and baiting - I myself have looked into the deeper source behind many arguments against Ukraine and few would be surprised where the spiders web has led.

[elwaclaret]

REUTERS - 'There's actually a stronger measure of domestic cohesion and unity than there was before this spat started.' @Max_Hunder in Kyiv tells Reuters World News how Donald Trump's criticism of Volodymyr Zelenskiy has been greeted in Ukraine’

https://x.com/reuters/status/1892562386 ... XbpxEsmRVg

[elwaclaret]

NEXTA- Five people, including two children, were injured when a Russian air bomb hit a high-rise building in Kherson

Rescue operation continue.

https://x.com/nexta_tv/status/189245646 ... XbpxEsmRVg

[elwaclaret]

REPUBLICANS AGAINST TRUMP - Britain didn’t hold an election during WWII until Nazi Germany was defeated, despite not being occupied but only enduring attacks from the air and sea.

Trump would've called Churchill a 'dictator'

https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/18 ... XbpxEsmRVg

[elwaclaret]

RORY STEWART - What is the source for this claim that the US has given 350 Billion to Ukraine please @JDVance ? According to the Kiel Institute for the World Economy, the US has allocated $119 billion.

https://x.com/rorystewartuk/status/1892 ... XbpxEsmRVg

[RalphCoatesComb]

I did not believe that, in my lifetime, an American President would be waving a white flag, whilst rolling over in front of a Russian leader, allowing him to stroke his tummy.

(My original post contained words like "bending over" and "pillow" but I thought that was not very PC)

[Longsider]

Trump is a menace to the west and an obvious imbecile, narcissist. Mr Putin tells him he is great and if they can sort this, there can be Trump towers everywhere and he is sold.

He then spews out Putin lies and propaganda, as though they are tablets from God. This man is a Russian asset. A danger to Europe.

Well said. Totally agree.

[Colburn_Claret]

The current trend of making Zelensky out to be the villain would be hilarious if people didn't actually believe it.

The propaganda machine is absolutely fascinating to watch.

Fear not, it's only believed by people who were already pro Russian, those who are for freedom and Ukraine take it with a pinch of salt. I can't believe it changes public perspective or opinion, one iota.

[Colburn_Claret]

The great thing about this thread is that it is totally unbiased.

it's impossible to have an opinion on a subject, especially a strong opinion, and not have a bias. It isn't an issue so long as you don't allow it to cloud your common sense.

[Clovius Boofus]

Farage has said that Zelenskyy is not a dictator. I don't think there's many prominent people left who agree with Trump over this.

[Falcon]

Farage has said that Zelenskyy is not a dictator. I don't think there's many prominent people left who agree with Trump over this.

I don't like Nigel Farage for a lot of reasons, but I'm glad he has not agreed with Trump on this. Although he has, bizarrely, agreed with Trump's stance that an election should be called in Ukraine. That would be madness during a war, and looking at Zelenskyy's approval rating, would only cement his mandate anyway.

[Burnley1989]

I think even if you were pro Russian you would start questioning yourself when you realised you were on the same side as Trump

[Vegas Claret]

@md thanks for bringing this thread back, appreciate it !

[AlargeClaret]

The current trend of making Zelensky out to be the villain would be hilarious if people didn't actually believe it.

The propaganda machine is absolutely fascinating to watch.

The problem being that the western media , EU etc inc the US have utterly lionised Zelensky literally without critique . While technically he is a dictator , Trump clearly doesn’t think he’s part of a future UKR so wants him out . Would UKR vote him out ? I’m not so sure they would . The irony of him him being voted back in would be sweet indeed for Zel.

Peace has to be a priority though , anything upto 1.5m casualties ( dead and wounded ) is a terrible figure.

[dibraidio]

Gas lighting is an excellent weapon in the manipulator's armoury. By changing the narrative the manipulator leaves everyone else thinking "what just happened there? This doesn't make any sense. It's not fair." By redefining the villain and switching sides the other interested parties are suddenly called to act through a feeling of injustice. Suddenly it is their problem to solve. In some cases this will mean that interested parties who were just idle bystanders are suddenly prepared to become actors in the absence of the champion who is no longer there to act for them.

In my office we are attached to the wrong division, our management are incentivised on software sales but we are hardware specialists. The hardware sellers call for help all the time and really pleased that we're there to help them but as long as software are picking up the bill they won't try to recruit us because they get the service for free. Why pay money for something they can have for free. My management have now decided that they're going to refuse all requests for hardware help to force someone to offer to pay for our services.

[CrosspoolClarets]

Really interesting spat on X today between the Vice President and author Niall Ferguson (who if I recall is not on the liberal side of the spectrum so an odd one for Vance to pick a fight with).

https://x.com/nfergus/status/1892589236957622709?s=61

In these exchanges we can see the true mindset of some of the players so they are fascinating to read between the lines rather than just reading what the newspapers write about it.

I was particularly interested when Vance refers to the past “generosity” of US towards Europe, and also refers to “the most important thing” is that the war makes the US weaker, in contrast to the weakening effect war has on other countries such as Ukraine.

My take on it is twofold - selfishness beginning to take over, and naivety / arrogance in not believing a strong NATO / Europe doesn’t feed back to make the US more prosperous and more powerful.

As Vance also says, he has been saying these things for years - so this mindset will not suddenly change now. It is a big concern.

[Taffy on the wing]

Trump has never been quiet about his admiration for Putin, so it was obvious when he came to power this would happen.

He will give Russia what it wants and throw Ukraine under the bus, selling it as a victory for peace to the gullible.

He's also going to give Israel what it wants......this will be a tough next 4 yrs.

Mad times!

[MDWat]

Are you suggesting the Mods and MD were behind the attack?

This made me chuckle

[AlargeClaret]

Worth noting ( forget the politics ) that whatever peace deal is drawn up , going forward ,UKR is gonna be in a far better state both with its economy ( just think of the rebuild !) its trading and monetary benefits when it joins the EU, a far less corrupt nation perhaps ? and most importantly it’s gonna have a bloody strong military . That will be backed by Europe if not the US ,and will be more than enough to keep Putin away in his dotage.

[Goalposts]

Fascism is not a new thing in the states in fact in the 30”s and 40”s there was a very large fascist movement, as there was in europe. In fact if you watch some documentaries and read up on it, America had a large populace supporting Germany in the 2nd world war and demanding they at the very least remain neutral .but for FDR they would have done. Many see this as the emergence of the first large scale America first movement.

It’s never really gone away, and fascism tends to take on the particular culture are values of the country, but always with a strong man at its head. And control of the media - free press is a NO-No

Russia - Italy - germany - Spain all had variations on a theme and anti semitism is not necessarily present in all. But some form of projecting that hate on certain people or “others” is common to them all. This can be religion, ethnicity or political views. The rise of populism movements in europe is largely down to immigration and non integration into the perceived countries values.

Also America has a military monopoly going on, which we all in europe have just accepted in the last 60 years and now find that as America under trump looks to be retreating from europe leaves us particularly exposed and needs correcting but will take years. His quest for Canada and Greenland is part of that retreat and all about securing shipping lanes - energy and rare minerals. If he secures that and manages the chip movement from Taiwan as far as he is concerned the whole continent of America is his sphere of influence - china can have Asia and Russia Eastern Europe and the stans. India will have the near Asia sphere and Israel the mid east. That just leaves Africa

This is what china and russia refer to as the multi -polar world and in truth a single polar world is more unusual than common. What’s not being reported much is the near panic in japan and Taiwan on what this potentially means for them.

I think we are living in the most dangerous phase of world history for nearly a 100 years and with warfare potentially taking on all new fields of battle - AI- Drones - Cyber - biological - space etc etc. it does not bode well.

There is no official focal point for opposition to trump in the states as they dont have a leader of the opposition as such like here in the UK. I do think that history will not be kind to Biden as in reflection he will be even more criticised from not pulling out earlier and allowing ano to run - also it was a mistake to run with Kamala a black woman. In many parts of maga america being a woman is only marginally better than being black. Rascism and mysogeny are rife in many states in the US.. gilihad. Is not to far removed from what some states would like to implement.

We are guilty in the educated west for want of a better description in thinking these things couldn’t happen - because it means that the idiots, aquiescent and uneducated have taken over the asylum. Well for now in the states they pretty much have.

[JarrowClaret]

When is the next Ukrainian election?

As soon as the are able I would assume they will have elections

They have areas that are occupied, lots of voters either displaced or fighting on top of that they are getting hit by missiles in major cities probably daily. They are under martial law currently and I think it is written into there constitution that they can’t hold elections in these circumstances. Even the opposition leaders say they shouldn’t hold elections yet. It is purely a Russian call so they can try and get a Russian centric government in place, the concern for me the most popular people who will likely replace Zelenskyy are probably more anti Russian that he is.

[CoolClaret]

Fascism is not a new thing in the states in fact in the 30”s and 40”s there was a very large fascist movement, as there was in europe. In fact if you watch some documentaries and read up on it, America had a large populace supporting Germany in the 2nd world war and demanding they at the very least remain neutral .but for FDR they would have done. Many see this as the emergence of the first large scale America first movement.

Great post, Goalposts - and yep, people often forget that about America.

'When Nazis took Manhattan'

https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch ... -manhattan

[Ampth7]

It has been a remarkable few days politically, and not in a good way. Real war-time leaders like FDR and Churchill would be turning in their graves seeing the way Trump has behaved this week.

Incredible to think that it wasn’t that long ago the American government hailed Zelensky as a hero, only to now label him a dictator!? I do fear that Trump has turned his back on supporting Ukraine in favour of some bizarre peace agreement with Russia that will only do one thing - embolden the real dictator Putin!

Isn’t it crazy how humanity never seems to learn from its mistakes, and I fear if Putin gets what he wants this time, what’s to stop him continuing with his ‘special military operations’ in other neighbouring countries. It’s a movie we’ve all seen before!

[dvalley69]

It has been a remarkable few days politically, and not in a good way. Real war-time leaders like FDR and Churchill would be turning in their graves seeing the way Trump has behaved this week.

Incredible to think that it wasn’t that long ago the American government hailed Zelensky as a hero, only to now label him a dictator!? I do fear that Trump has turned his back on supporting Ukraine in favour of some bizarre peace agreement with Russia that will only do one thing - embolden the real dictator Putin!

Isn’t it crazy how humanity never seems to learn from its mistakes, and I fear if Putin gets what he wants this time, what’s to stop him continuing with his ‘special military operations’ in other neighbouring countries. It’s a movie we’ve all seen before!

I know you can never believe a word anyone associated with the Russian government says, but the latest interview with the ambassador and Victoria Derbyshire suggests otherwise and that all they want is the Donbas region.

[Ampth7]

I know you can never believe a word anyone associated with the Russian government says, but the latest interview with the ambassador and Victoria Derbyshire suggests otherwise and that all they want is the Donbas region.

Unfortunately, I don’t think you can ever trust a dictator like Putin. History would also suggest that when you try to appease a dictator’s wishes, they always come back for more.

[Stonehouse]

Gas lighting is an excellent weapon in the manipulator's armoury. By changing the narrative the manipulator leaves everyone else thinking "what just happened there? This doesn't make any sense. It's not fair." By redefining the villain and switching sides the other interested parties are suddenly called to act through a feeling of injustice. Suddenly it is their problem to solve. In some cases this will mean that interested parties who were just idle bystanders are suddenly prepared to become actors in the absence of the champion who is no longer there to act for them.

In my office we are attached to the wrong division, our management are incentivised on software sales but we are hardware specialists. The hardware sellers call for help all the time and really pleased that we're there to help them but as long as software are picking up the bill they won't try to recruit us because they get the service for free. Why pay money for something they can have for free. My management have now decided that they're going to refuse all requests for hardware help to force someone to offer to pay for our services.

Being a bit of a dinasaur some of the modern terminology like Karens ,Gammons and Gaslighting completely baffle me ,is there an old fashioned term that is equivalent to gaslighting?