The gulf between champ and prem showing again

[kenyon6923]

The bottom 3 (if results stay the same) are the 3 promoted clubs with a 5 points gap to 4th bottom with 12 gamss to go.
2/3 of the bottom 3 have swapped managers mid season.
Is it what it is or has there to be something done to halt this trend ? Do we think say Leeds, Sheff Utd and us go up 12 months from now it will be a similar story ?


Is it feasible for your 1st season promoted they try a handicap system ?

the champions of the championship gets 3 points start
2nd gets 5 points start
3rd (play off winners) get 6 points start

It would certainly stir things up and bring more teams into the fold.

Is it a continued "good look" on the league if teams looked doomed so far out - like us and sheff utd last season and Southampton this season 9 points from 26 games !!! Doomed in February.

[HB Claret]

Thought they did handicap it already as the big teams get all the decisions in their favour

[Stalbansclaret]

The PL teams are never going to vote for such a handicapping system though. Most, if not all, owners would prefer no relegation. I agree it’s a big problem and the massive improvement in teams like Bournemouth , Fulham and Palace makes it feel incredibly difficult for a team like ourselves to survive if promoted nowadays.

[kenyon6923]

Your probably right pal but last night Leicester hammered - game over by half time - home fans going home at half time. Southampton today 9 points from 26 games - now 4 nil down at home - home sections virtually empty. In February a championship club in waiting - is that competition - is that the "most exciting leagues in the world" ??

Add Ipswich to the list now 4-1 down at home against a side who have not been pulling up trees recently.

[NewClaret]

Ipswich have spent €150m to be 3rd bottom, 5 points off safety if results don’t change.

They on target to just pip our points tally, but might not even not even do that!

Starting to look like £200m is the minimum spend requirement to compete?

[Spijed]

Would be interesting to see what happens if the three promoted clubs got relegated for the next couple of seasons and it starts to look like a closed shop.

I think it becomes a bit uncomfortable for the Prem as their product no longer looks competitive.

[RVclaret]

Ipswich have spent €150m to be 3rd bottom, 5 points off safety if results don’t change.

They on target to just pip our points tally, but might not even not even do that!

Starting to look like £200m is the minimum spend requirement to compete?

You’ve got to remember Ipswich had to build almost an entire new squad. Doing all that in one summer is tough. I’m also of the view there’s 1 way for newly promoted clubs to play - physicality and tough to beat (basically, don’t bother trying to play football, and just try sh1thouse some points). We wouldn’t need to spend anywhere near 150m as we already have a stronger starting base than what Ipswich did (and still no guarantees, obviously).

[kenyon6923]

You’ve got to remember Ipswich had to build almost an entire new squad. Doing all that in one summer is tough. I’m also of the view there’s 1 way for newly promoted clubs to play - physicality and tough to beat (basically, don’t bother trying to play football, and just try sh1thouse some points). We wouldn’t need to spend anywhere near 150m as we already have a stronger starting base than what Ipswich did (and still no guarantees, obviously).

SD got away with that brilliantly for a number of seasons but it catches up with you and it also comes with fans criticism as your procession stats are low, the football is classed as "terrible" as your basically playing to survive and if you go 1 down - 9/10 your knackered !! Lol it's a real fine line.

[Ric_C]

If we do go up, SP needs to look at teams like Brentford and how they play as the blueprint. Bit of a mix of everything.

Put it this way if we pass it around the back constantly like we have been this season, we will get caught time after time & it will be a grim watch.

Hopefully he has a plan B.

[Vegas Claret]

6 up, 6 down, scrap the play offs - that increases the jeopardy for half the Premier League
Adjust the PSR rules for promoted teams, lower the parachute payments to stop the crazy spending.
It might take a season or two but it will close the financial gap whilst also making things more interesting and sharing the money among more clubs

As it stands and with the current PSR rules any promoted team doesn't stand much of a chance

[Newcastleclaret93]

Ipswich have spent €150m to be 3rd bottom, 5 points off safety if results don’t change.

They on target to just pip our points tally, but might not even not even do that!

Starting to look like £200m is the minimum spend requirement to compete?

I think it’s possible to stay up spending 100m.

But you really have to spend your money wisely. 4 players 25m each. Go for quality over quantity.

Focus on size and athleticism in the middle of the park then technical ability in the final third and you stand a chance.

I’ve said it before but people really don’t understand how good premier league sides are nowadays. I look at our stand out players like Esteve, Trafford etc… and I really struggle to see a side in the bottom of half of the table where they start regularly. This highlights just how tough it will be if we go up

[Muric Leggings]

Same as next season Burnley Sheffield United and Leeds will be relegated it's just a vicious circle nowadays the only redeeming thing is the 100 million or whatever it is for having to endure a season of getting tonked every weekend.

[jrgbfc]

Almost feel sorry for the Southampton fans their season has been that miserable. We had a taste of it last season and its not fun at all.

[JohnMac]

Don't try to reinvent football is my opinion. It has been skewed in favour of the bigger Clubs since the Premier League started and will always be so.

Anything you try to change won't change anything!

[Vegas Claret]

I think it’s possible to stay up spending 100m.

But you really have to spend your money wisely. 4 players 25m each. Go for quality over quantity.

Focus on size and athleticism in the middle of the park then technical ability in the final third and you stand a chance.

I’ve said it before but people really don’t understand how good premier league sides are nowadays. I look at our stand out players like Esteve, Trafford etc… and I really struggle to see a side in the bottom of half of the table where they start regularly. This highlights just how tough it will be if we go up

Six teams, all with experienced people working for the clubs have all tried and failed. Pretty certain they all would have chosen the "let's just buy 4 players at 25 million" route had it been viable. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago but not now. The gap is gigantic

[Vegas Claret]

I'll just add, the way it is at the moment we will likely see promoted clubs actually spend very little and just take the money to invest in facilities for a more long term vision.

[Goliath]

You have to reset and accept that you have to create a system that will be able to defend primarily. If you can't defend then you're knackered before you even start.

[Darnhill Claret]

First of all, it's nothing to do with the money spent by the promoted teams/clubs, it is the quality of the recruitment, along with some other factors that you can't plan for, such as injuries and diabolical decisions.
Dyche proved that you can devise a system, recruit players to suit the system, that you know will fight for every point, and manage a pool of players with small egos.
I reckon that upfront we now have much better options.
Anthony continues to improve. Flemming and Foster still have improvement in them, with better support. Benson and Edwards can improve further with a higher level of match fitness.
Flemming and Foster can each improve their goalscoring stats.
Anthony, Benson and Edwards can play on either flank, which increases our options.
JonJo looks like he can slot into different midfield roles, as required.
Hannibal looks to be settling into the team. JonJo and Ash are hopefully advising him how to better improve/manage his 'match temperament'. Still has lots of talent and potential, with room for further improvement.
If we can find another 'secret weapon' like Edwards. A striker with good close control, with a cool head.

A younger version of Jonjo, keep our current defenders and keeper and I think we'd be a better team/squad than last time. If we lose our defenders, then try and replace with similar.
Try everything to get CJ to sign a contract. If he wants to wait until promotion is guaranteed, so be it.

Avoid bringing in too many new players. Let's show loyalty to our promising young players, and add quality in the mid 20's age range.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Six teams, all with experienced people working for the clubs have all tried and failed. Pretty certain they all would have chosen the "let's just buy 4 players at 25 million" route had it been viable. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago but not now. The gap is gigantic

No disrespect Vegas but you’re making it out like the 6 clubs have tried that. None of them have. They have all gone for quantity.

[Tricky Trevor]

They are all businesses. They should not be allowed to spend European earnings on the PL squad, they should pay that out as divis. That is a start to a level playing field.

Go back to 3 subs to stop them hoovering up top players, with the salaries they can afford, just to sit and get splinters. That talent would then be spread through the Division.

Limit first team squad sizes to 30, as an alternative to the above. Without U21s getting a free pass.

[Vegas Claret]

No disrespect Vegas but you’re making it out like the 6 clubs have tried that. None of them have. They have all gone for quantity.

Mate seriously, are you suggesting that six professional football clubs many of whom have spent plenty of time in the PL know less than a bloke on internet fan forum ??? If it was that easy then some of them would have tried it. If we go up I hope we do what you are suggesting though, rebuilding a full squad every summer is insane

edit: my reply isn't meant to sound disrespectful either but it likely reads that way a bit - it's not meant that way

[RVclaret]

If you look at the 3 clubs that have gone up this year

Leicester - lost their manager and best player in the summer (not a good start), changed manager profile (style of play) dramatically (heavy possession to defensive) to someone the fans didn’t want, recruited poorly

Ipswich - probably recruited the best, but still a bit too much in the fancy light forward side (Clarke, Szmodics, Philogene etc) but had an entire squad to build and blend together, that’s a tough ask in one window, manager tries to play football and as we know that is tough when you’re not on it, they are still not out of it though

Saints - manager obsessed with playing in a way that would simply not work for a newly promoted PL team without the players, below average recruitment & odd managerial appointment

I think all 3 have their own example of what not to do. Not saying it makes it easier, obv, there is a significant gap, but I still don’t feel they’ve given themselves the best chance, which you’ve really got to do.

[Vegas Claret]

If you look at the 3 clubs that have gone up this year

Leicester - lost their manager and best player in the summer (not a good start), changed manager profile (style of play) dramatically (heavy possession to defensive) to someone the fans didn’t want, recruited poorly

Ipswich - probably recruited the best, but still a bit too much in the fancy light forward side (Clarke, Szmodics, Philogene etc) but had an entire squad to build and blend together, that’s a tough ask in one window, manager tries to play football and as we know that is tough when you’re not on it, they are still not out of it though

Saints - manager obsessed with playing in a way that would simply not work for a newly promoted PL team without the players, below average recruitment & odd managerial appointment

I think all 3 have their own example of what not to do. Not saying it makes it easier, obv, there is a significant gap, but I still don’t feel they’ve given themselves the best chance, which you’ve really got to do.

Ipswich have signed top Championship players, they are playing the yoyo game until it sticks - they are likely only going to lose Delap and Philips in the summer

[CoolClaret]

Ipswich have signed top Championship players, they are playing the yoyo game until it sticks - they are likely only going to lose Delap and Philips in the summer

Yep, that's certainly one option!

Interestingly, I think we'll be better prepared if we go up this time in terms of squad balance & style of play, but it really is essential that we opt for quality (if/where possible) over quantity if we do get promoted.

Striker, attacking midfield, defensive midfield and fullback are priorities, IMO.

[Newcastleclaret93]

Mate seriously, are you suggesting that six professional football clubs many of whom have spent plenty of time in the PL know less than a bloke on internet fan forum ??? If it was that easy then some of them would have tried it. If we go up I hope we do what you are suggesting though, rebuilding a full squad every summer is insane

edit: my reply isn't meant to sound disrespectful either but it likely reads that way a bit - it's not meant that way

You’re making out like the professional clubs regularly don’t make mistakes.

Look at Burnley every fan on this board knew how stupid how summer window was before the prem season started (but no one on the board or even VK knew).

All six clubs have been a bit of basket case.

I think if we go up this year you will see a dramatically different window. I genuinely believe you will see us only target a handful of players (like Edwards quality).

If I was a betting man I think you will see us go big on a striker, CM, Left back and maybe a left winger and that will be it for circa 100-125m

[Vegas Claret]

hope so, I'm still livid how our promotion team was just discarded. How Roberts and Benny were treated was criminal

[Tufty]

Bournemouth, Brentford, Fulham, Notts Forest .... and for the time being Wolves have all quite successfully bucked the trend of all 3 promoted teams being immediately relegated.

[Taffy on the wing]

Ipswich play some great stuff.....sadly, even if they stay up they'll lose Delap & Hutchinson.

[ksrclaret]

If we do go up, I agree with those saying the only way to give yourself even a slim chance is to play as fast and as directly as possible. If the opposition are pressing you, don’t be daft enough to think you have the quality to play around it. It’ll be punished ruthlessly time and time again.

This idea that we’ll have to spend £X many millions is a red herring as well. We’d be better off spending less on transfer fees and more on wages, allowing us to recruit some players with experience. If the model is to buy young and flog them again we’ll be in for another torrid season, should we get there.

[Vegas Claret]

Bournemouth, Brentford, Fulham, Notts Forest .... and for the time being Wolves have all quite successfully bucked the trend of all 3 promoted teams being immediately relegated.

Yeah but look at the context when Brentford, Bournemouth got established and the spend of those down at the bottom then - it's a different planet now. When we were there nobody in the bottom was spending 30-40 million on one player. Forest spent hundreds and hundreds of millions to only just stay up and Wolves have spent fortunes too and are now paying the price for it. Only Leeds have the kind of money to do that but can't because of the low PSR number applied to Championship clubs.

The pyramid is screwed

[CoolClaret]

Ipswich have had to overcome the deficit of having a squad predominantly signed from their days in League One, Luton similar and had a good pop at it last year.

What we have to have is a solid defence, and hope to win the odd game.

You need players who relish doing the grunt work, have the physicality and can defend your box all day, head away everything, keeper that dominates balls into the box etc and try to restrict the opposition to half-chances.

We have the foundations but would need extra bits of quality in key areas. It's doable - no point going into it defeated, anyway.

[CoolClaret]

Yeah but look at the context when Brentford, Bournemouth got established and the spend of those down at the bottom then - it's a different planet now. When we were there nobody in the bottom was spending 30-40 million on one player. Forest spent hundreds and hundreds of millions to only just stay up and Wolves have spent fortunes too and are now paying the price for it. Only Leeds have the kind of money to do that but can't because of the low PSR number applied to Championship clubs.

The pyramid is screwed

Look at Villa today though Vegas, in their lineup today was:

McGinn, Cash, Konsa, Mings, Maatsen, and Watkins... All developed by playing multiple seasons in the Champ, they've made the step up!

Countless other examples across the PL as well.

[Vegas Claret]

Look at Villa today though Vegas, in their lineup today was:

McGinn, Cash, Konsa, Mings, Maatsen, and Watkins... All developed by playing multiple seasons in the Champ, they've made the step up!

Countless other examples across the PL as well.

and how much have Villa spent to put lads along side them?

[CoolClaret]

and how much have Villa spent to put lads along side them?

A ton!... but we aren't trying to do what they've done (yet ); we just need to build a squad that gives us a fighting chance of having a pop at staying up, which I do believe we can do!

[Wile E Coyote]

I recall the footballing/media savvy ponce Ian Wright pouring scorn on the lower teams in the top flight, seemingly he was fed up with them, almost as if their history, struggles, and success to achieve the highest league was as nothing if they flopped time and time again. Clearly he was besotted by the fashionable clubs, he regarded newly promoted teams, particularly from unfashionable locations as irritants. ****.
That said, the teams we support have to negotiate this system, be it with local or foreign backers.
the plan thesedays is to nail your corporate colours to whatever commercial enterprise looks profitable.
Latterly , despite all the nay sayers, Burnley have done quite well.
The gulf is too much for almost most teams, therefore the yo yo thing happens. but not that often . clubs usually bobble about a bit in 2nd tier, but a lot nosedive into virtual obscurity.

[Vegas Claret]

A ton!... but we aren't trying to do what they've done (yet ); we just need to build a squad that gives us a fighting chance of having a pop at staying up, which I do believe we can do!

I just hope we go up ! In all honesty i'd rather finish on 12 points watching our current lads give absolutely everything that finish on 24 watching what we saw for large periods of last season.

Let's hope it's something we can actually witness, we need to go up.

[Nonayforever]

The current answer for any promoted team is to spend £500 million, go heavily in debt, get docked 2 points and survive , sort the problems out the following season.

[Woodleyclaret]

Brighton and Bournemouth have billionaire owners happy to fund massive spending
Brentford have a great scouting network and have manged to get serious money for players which they replace with good quality signings Forest spent over £300m to be successful.
We need a concerted plan on spending next year
If Steve, Traff and Luca are sold we need to looking at North of £100m for them to enable quality to be brought in.

[Zom Zom]

In fairness to Ipswich, when a team rises as quickly as theirs did through sheer momentum, they have to level off at one point. Deservedly promoted, but nowhere near ready to be playing top flight football. They then went ‘shopping’ in the Championship for the majority of their new recruits, as was their financial muscle.

They will probably drop back down, and they’ll either sink like Luton (maybe not to that extent) or swim like ourselves and Sheffield United. I hope the latter.

[jojomk1]

This article pretty much sums up the crazy financial situation of the Premier League

https://www.football365.com/news/transf ... d-man-city

Only Everton have actually made a profit on transfers from being in the "best" league in the world over the last 5 years

[Andreshotboots]

You have to reset and accept that you have to create a system that will be able to defend primarily. If you can't defend then you're knackered before you even start.

Couldn't agree more, promoted teams think they can just waltz into the Premier League and play like they did in the Championship and survive. The quality is so much different. We'd probably have been 0-4 down at half time with the chances we gave against Wednesday, which is a rarity for us to be fair.

We were as guilty as anybody under Kompany..I think this "boring Burnley" according to the football world, would have a much better chance of survival than any of the current top 2.

[andyh]

Our recruiting last time round was nothing short of criminal. Lots of money in all the wrong places. Dumping the players who go us there. If we’d have spent wiser (and been a bit more fortunate with injuries) we would have stayed up.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

Dyche had the right idea when we went up with him, make us hard to beat and then change our style once we had a foot in the door

A lot of clubs feel obliged to play the pretty stuff from the off despite not having the right players for it

[Walt]

Dyche had the right idea when we went up with him, make us hard to beat and then change our style once we had a foot in the door

A lot of clubs feel obliged to play the pretty stuff from the off despite not having the right players for it

Absolutely agree with this. Dyche was brilliant for us by playing to our strengths, he got stick for it from all angles but it worked.

The nonsense spouted by pundits playing football the right way grinds my gears. In the next breath they'll slag a team off for being an embarrassment getting thrashed every week. Build a team that works for you and forget about the majority of the clowns on platforms like Talksport.

Parker has also received plenty this season for being boring rather than expansive and attractive. There's no doubt at times we have been dull, but he's gone about it the right way for me and built a team more than capable of staying up, should we go up. Obviously we'd add a few higher calibre players, but the foundation he's set with a very well drilled team, who are willing to fight for each other I think is far more likely to achieve staying up over Kompany's self serving methods.

[Dyched]

The gap appears larger than actually is due to the Pep wanna be coaches coming along which ends up with 90% of teams trying to play the same way. Forest have shown if you have a plan you can be successful.

“But Forest have spent”. Well yes, but not as much as quite a few others how they are higher than.

Like others have said, Dyche had a plan. Could we get better than Boyd/Arfield and co. Probably yes. Would they fit the system to be successful in the PL more? No.

If we could unleash promotion season Ings and Vokes in the PL now, they’d rip it.

[ClaretLoup]

The current bottom three sides in the EPL have won only four home games between them, last season the relegated clubs only won eight in total. So it’s becoming a miserable experience for fans.

A little bit surprising is that both Southampton and Leicester were previously well established EPL clubs. You would have thought that with one or two tweaks they would be able to survive, but instead they have quickly become yo-yo clubs.

It’s a concern as if this situation keeps recurring it will strengthen the EPL case for a closed shop or some form of re- election.

[Foulthrow]

There’s an article from Jonathan Wilson on this in The Gruniad.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... h-landings

[Vegas Claret]

You used to need in or around 40 points to survive, you don't even need 30 now. If you think the gap isn't growing then look at the facts.

[GodIsADeeJay81]

There’s an article from Jonathan Wilson on this in The Gruniad.


https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... h-landings

They always mention Brighton but not their losses

[Jakubclaret]

The gap appears larger than actually is due to the Pep wanna be coaches coming along which ends up with 90% of teams trying to play the same way. Forest have shown if you have a plan you can be successful.

“But Forest have spent”. Well yes, but not as much as quite a few others how they are higher than.

Like others have said, Dyche had a plan. Could we get better than Boyd/Arfield and co. Probably yes. Would they fit the system to be successful in the PL more? No.

If we could unleash promotion season Ings and Vokes in the PL now, they’d rip it.

Think another reason is clubs sacking managers too early instead of riding it out I can think of 2 already down at the bottom that have made changes & if anything have deteriorated. I don't believe that russell Martin & Steve cooper are inferior to the replacements.