Talksport now

[GetIntoEm]

Are we only allowed to sign players that have played for us before in this hypothetical situation?

Can't believe Ben Mee and Danny Ings have been mentioned, might as well go all out and resign Steve Davis and Andy Payton.

[scamander]

The best chance for the next three promoted sides is a few clubs already up there hitting self destruct. There's an awful lot of so-called 'well run' clubs losing absolute fortunes in the Prem. Sooner or later, one or two owners will pull the plug.

This. Getting out of the bottom 3 is now like getting into the top 5, soneone needs to give up a spot. There's currently a 9 point gap from 18th to 17th and 17 points from 18th to 16th place. It's not even close.

Last season the gap was 6 points between 18th and 17th. The teams in the bottom third are much stronger than they used to be. The only team who are flagging as a possible candidate for next season as being in trouble are Wolves.

There's always a chance that Brentford might hit a wall next year, but there aren't the group of candidates which there once was.

The only other option is a black swan event (e.g. City being deducted a huge number of points).

[Spijed]

We certainly wouldn't be worse off quality wise if we were able to sell Trafford to Newcastle with Pope returning as part of the deal.

We'd get a decent amount plus a very good goalkeeper.

Hypothetical I know, but that would be a good deal for us.

[Goliath]

Would it? Moneyball, in the film and book, was about finding obscure talent, for cheap, that others might overlook because of a certain deficiency. We paid £14-19m for Trafford, who had just won the Euros and played for Man City, I don’t see it. A strategy of buying younger players to develop and sell for profit (as a means of growing/being sustainable) is where we seemed to land.

And Pace showed last time he can find the money without needing to sell players (only after relegation), though. So I don’t see why selling anyone is required when you get the Premier League pot anyway, plus the debt financing ALK have shown they can and will do (albeit probably less than last time).

I'm suggesting a completely different approach to signing Trafford etc. Moneyball is finding value where others haven't. Freebies due to age/injury concerns with Mee and Ings would fit right in that category.

[Ampth7]

It is an interesting dilemma regarding promoted sides and their likelihood of avoiding relegation. I don’t think there is any doubt that staying in the premier league is now much harder than ever.

Case in point, just look at the clubs currently placed between 13th-17th in the prem! Man Utd, Spurs, Everton, West Ham, Wolves - 5 huge clubs struggling, but still well clear of the bottom 3.

In my opinion, to stay afloat following promotion, everything needs to be done to perfection. By that I am referring to tactically, style of play, recruitment, injuries and a huge slice of good luck along the way. Recruitment wise, I suspect our biggest problem will not necessarily be transfer fees, but rather uncovering hidden gems via scouting and then meeting player wage demands with our limited budget.

However, despite my lack of enjoyment watching Parkerball some weeks, I do think that the style of play he employs along with an incredible defence is the right way to go about trying to avoid relegation if we go up. Of course, key to this will be retaining key players like CJ, Esteve, Trafford so that Parker can build on the base of a solid team. Promotion is probably the only way we can keep all 3, so here’s hoping for 7 more wins!

[Goliath]

We certainly wouldn't be worse off quality wise if we were able to sell Trafford to Newcastle with Pope returning as part of the deal.

We'd get a decent amount plus a very good goalkeeper.

Hypothetical I know, but that would be a good deal for us.

Yep. Sounds a bit silly but having one if the best goalkeeping prospects in the world isn't really a luxury we can afford.

[Andreshotboots]

It is an interesting dilemma regarding promoted sides and their likelihood of avoiding relegation. I don’t think there is any doubt that staying in the premier league is now much harder than ever.

Case in point, just look at the clubs currently placed between 13th-17th in the prem! Man Utd, Spurs, Everton, West Ham, Wolves - 5 huge clubs struggling, but still well clear of the bottom 3.

In my opinion, to stay afloat following promotion, everything needs to be done to perfection. By that I am referring to tactically, style of play, recruitment, injuries and a huge slice of good luck along the way. Recruitment wise, I suspect our biggest problem will not necessarily be transfer fees, but rather uncovering hidden gems via scouting and then meeting player wage demands with our limited budget.

However, despite my lack of enjoyment watching Parkerball some weeks, I do think that the style of play he employs along with an incredible defence is the right way to go about trying to avoid relegation if we go up. Of course, key to this will be retaining key players like CJ, Esteve, Trafford so that Parker can build on the base of a solid team. Promotion is probably the only way we can keep all 3, so here’s hoping for 7 more wins!

I agree to an extent. But let's not forget how ruthless the Premier League is. There are not too many games this season, even in our astonishing return of clean sheets where we've not given up some decent chances. These are more often than not taken in the Premier League.

I certainly think we'd make more of a fist of it, but you certainly need to be able to score a good amount of goals too, as the World class attacking players will unlock you no matter how good you are.

[ChorltonCharlie]

Some opinions are quite scary. Seeing Ben Mee touted as a replacement for Esteve is just barmy. Esteve is arguably a better quality of player than Mee ever was, and Mee is closing in on 36 and has hardly played this season. Mee was a superb servant for this club and was a cracking player in a setup that got the best out of him, but his time has gone.

[BigGaz]

I'm not convinced by this argument that it's getting harder and harder either. Everyone's said that for the last 10-15 years.

Last season, Luton were happy to take the cash and run. Our transfer strategy and naivety that we could play better teams with the same style did for us. The blades had poor transfers and poor managers.

This season it's much the same. Ipswich are basically a carbon copy of us, scattergun recruitment, playing the 'moneyball' game in favour of players that will do the business in the here and now, and married to a style that everyone else in that league is better at, the latter the same for Southampton. Leicester had as fair a shout at staying up as any other side till they potted Cooper, they just thought they were too good for his pragmatic football.

We became a mainstay in that league with limited players because we had a good manager with a good culture with a strategy that worked more than it didn't in terms of doing enough to avoid relegation. We all now know why we didn't cement that with further investment.

Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Wolves, Palace and the rest, they're not now sides that transcend any relegation shouts, they're not mainstays and they're not part of this mythical big 6 nor will they ever be. They're a few bad decisions away from being right back in with the rest of the pack.

[Goliath]

Some opinions are quite scary. Seeing Ben Mee touted as a replacement for Esteve is just barmy. Esteve is arguably a better quality of player than Mee ever was, and Mee is closing in on 36 and has hardly played this season. Mee was a superb servant for this club and was a cracking player in a setup that got the best out of him, but his time has gone.

Nobody touted that, you've created an opinion to disagree with. It was an example of something we could do theoretically which would fit into the idea of a moneyball approach.

[Goliath]

That's spot on . Money all is all about using advanced statistical analysis to identify and acquire undervalued players.

Which is what I've suggested. He just hadn't actually taken time to understand my view before disagreeing with it. At no point did I suggest signing Trafford was following the principles of moneyball

[Bacchus]

We certainly wouldn't be worse off quality wise if we were able to sell Trafford to Newcastle with Pope returning as part of the deal.

We'd get a decent amount plus a very good goalkeeper.

Hypothetical I know, but that would be a good deal for us.

If you consider the way we play, where the keeper is a big part of how we control possession and attempt to draw / beat an opposition press, we would be considerably worse off having Pope in goal instead of Trafford. I'd rather go back to Muric - at least that wouldn't mean ripping the whole gameplan up.

[RVclaret]

Interesting to see Forest’s (the main team we were competing with) wage bill for last season come out today at £166m. This is nearly double our record PL wage bill (that’s before even getting into their £185m outstanding transfer payables).

[Newcastleclaret93]

I'm not convinced by this argument that it's getting harder and harder either. Everyone's said that for the last 10-15 years.

Last season, Luton were happy to take the cash and run. Our transfer strategy and naivety that we could play better teams with the same style did for us. The blades had poor transfers and poor managers.

This season it's much the same. Ipswich are basically a carbon copy of us, scattergun recruitment, playing the 'moneyball' game in favour of players that will do the business in the here and now, and married to a style that everyone else in that league is better at, the latter the same for Southampton. Leicester had as fair a shout at staying up as any other side till they potted Cooper, they just thought they were too good for his pragmatic football.

We became a mainstay in that league with limited players because we had a good manager with a good culture with a strategy that worked more than it didn't in terms of doing enough to avoid relegation. We all now know why we didn't cement that with further investment.

Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Wolves, Palace and the rest, they're not now sides that transcend any relegation shouts, they're not mainstays and they're not part of this mythical big 6 nor will they ever be. They're a few bad decisions away from being right back in with the rest of the pack.

After this season it will be the first time in the leagues history that the 17 teams that survive will have had a minimum of 4 seasons of premier league football in a row.

So I think it’s very easy to say that the gap has never been bigger. We effectively need to play serious catch up this summer to even stand a chance

[Goliath]

If you consider the way we play, where the keeper is a big part of how we control possession and attempt to draw / beat an opposition press, we would be considerably worse off having Pope in goal instead of Trafford. I'd rather go back to Muric - at least that wouldn't mean ripping the whole gameplan up.

But if we play that way next season, how many goals will we concede with it breaking down in the next phases after Trafford has released it. It would need some in depth analysis to work out the benefits of having a Trafford style keeper for a team like ours at that level over a Pope with his extremely poor levels of distribution.

It's basically guaranteed we'd concede less goals from silly mistakes playing out from the back because Pope just doesn't have the ability to do it. I doubt we could afford Pope's wages anyway so not sure it'd be possible.

[KRBFC]

Michael Keane would be the first one through the door for me.

Christ and you’re talking about poor signings? Costing the club fortunes? Who next? Rodriguez, Charlie Taylor and George Boyd?

[ClaretPete001]

Would it? Moneyball, in the film and book, was about finding obscure talent, for cheap, that others might overlook because of a certain deficiency. We paid £14-19m for Trafford, who had just won the Euros and played for Man City, I don’t see it. A strategy of buying younger players to develop and sell for profit (as a means of growing/being sustainable) is where we seemed to land.

And Pace showed last time he can find the money without needing to sell players (only after relegation), though. So I don’t see why selling anyone is required when you get the Premier League pot anyway, plus the debt financing ALK have shown they can and will do (albeit probably less than last time).

It's a case of ever decreasing circles. You can only fill up your credit card once without paying it off.

I suspect we forwarded PL broadcast money and did lots of things like reduce debtors and increase creditors to fund the £90 odd million spend.. I doubt we've made enough money since then to be able to spend £90 million again.

And I suppose we can make a surplus by selling Esteve and Trafford but are unlikely to make profit on Foster, Amdouni and Ramsey should we want to sell them...! And you have to replace who you sell unless you have a ready replacement and we haven't. particularly, if Egan Riley goes.

I think if we do get promoted then APs first challenge is to retain the squad and then to get a budget that will help us to secure a long term PL place.

I guess we'll have to see how it pans out.

[ClaretPete001]

Kompany tried ditching the team that took us up and buying a new team. Didn't work. Of the current side, I would start with the idea of keeping Trafford, Roberts, Humphries, Esteve, Egan-Riley, Edwards, Cullen and finding replacements for the others. Then go after better players to replace those named, if we have the funds.

You are being very optimistic DSR..

[keith1879]

I agree with all but the Trafford statement. He may not have been suited to last year's relegation battle, but what keeper would be with the defence he had in front of him? Put him behind a stout defence like this year, and when he is called on he has made some excellent saves.

Been saying that for the last 18 months....thank goodness at least one other person agrees with me.

[boatshed bill]

We certainly wouldn't be worse off quality wise if we were able to sell Trafford to Newcastle with Pope returning as part of the deal.

We'd get a decent amount plus a very good goalkeeper.

Hypothetical I know, but that would be a good deal for us.

This is a joke, I assume

[Row x]

Some opinions are quite scary. Seeing Ben Mee touted as a replacement for Esteve is just barmy. Esteve is arguably a better quality of player than Mee ever was, and Mee is closing in on 36 and has hardly played this season. Mee was a superb servant for this club and was a cracking player in a setup that got the best out of him, but his time has gone.

But Mee played for Burnley, that's enough for some. Weird.

[Spijed]

This is a joke, I assume

Don't you think Pope would be good enough for us?

Obviously it isn't going to happen, but he's still very good at PL level.

[Enola Gay]

Do other fanbases have such a hard-on for getting their old players back as some Burnley fans do?

If a non-Burnley fam suggested signing most of the players on this thread for their team their mates would probably have them sectioned. And that's before we get to the strange idea that it counts as moneyball.

[Goliath]

Christ and you’re talking about poor signings? Costing the club fortunes? Who next? Rodriguez, Charlie Taylor and George Boyd?

Well it wouldn't cost the club fortunes. That's sort of the point. You are assuming he'd earn the same as he's on at Everton. He won't.

It's a no brainer of a signing for any promoted club

[Goliath]

Do other fanbases have such a hard-on for getting their old players back as some Burnley fans do?

If a non-Burnley fam suggested signing most of the players on this thread for their team their mates would probably have them sectioned. And that's before we get to the strange idea that it counts as moneyball.

They are absolutely reasonable suggestions of signings for any promoted club on free transfers regardless of who they previously played for. It just turns out that Dyche and Howe signed some excellent players for us who may be available, they all appear to be very good characters for the dressing room, have plenty of PL experience and quality and have some question marks around if they can still do it which is why they are available on free transfers.

We are likely to lose Barnes, we've lost Jay and a lot of other experience recently and we need to ensure we have players who can maintain standards in the changing room. It's absolutely key.

[Ampth7]

I agree to an extent. But let's not forget how ruthless the Premier League is. There are not too many games this season, even in our astonishing return of clean sheets where we've not given up some decent chances. These are more often than not taken in the Premier League.

I certainly think we'd make more of a fist of it, but you certainly need to be able to score a good amount of goals too, as the World class attacking players will unlock you no matter how good you are.

Fair points mate. We would certainly need to invest in 5/6 really good players who can hit the ground running to stand any chance of survival, but as Ipswich have shown this season, it’s still an uphill task!

[Bacchus]

But if we play that way next season, how many goals will we concede with it breaking down in the next phases after Trafford has released it. It would need some in depth analysis to work out the benefits of having a Trafford style keeper for a team like ours at that level over a Pope with his extremely poor levels of distribution.

It's basically guaranteed we'd concede less goals from silly mistakes playing out from the back because Pope just doesn't have the ability to do it. I doubt we could afford Pope's wages anyway so not sure it'd be possible.

You'd expect fewer risks that we've taken at time this season, for sure, but I'm not sure that's the same as trading for a keeper who struggles to keep the ball within the width of the pitch.

I'm not even sure Pope is remotely the keeper he was when we sold him anyway. It will be interesting to see where he is next season.

[Ampth7]

I'm not convinced by this argument that it's getting harder and harder either. Everyone's said that for the last 10-15 years.

Last season, Luton were happy to take the cash and run. Our transfer strategy and naivety that we could play better teams with the same style did for us. The blades had poor transfers and poor managers.

This season it's much the same. Ipswich are basically a carbon copy of us, scattergun recruitment, playing the 'moneyball' game in favour of players that will do the business in the here and now, and married to a style that everyone else in that league is better at, the latter the same for Southampton. Leicester had as fair a shout at staying up as any other side till they potted Cooper, they just thought they were too good for his pragmatic football.

We became a mainstay in that league with limited players because we had a good manager with a good culture with a strategy that worked more than it didn't in terms of doing enough to avoid relegation. We all now know why we didn't cement that with further investment.

Brentford, Bournemouth, Brighton, Wolves, Palace and the rest, they're not now sides that transcend any relegation shouts, they're not mainstays and they're not part of this mythical big 6 nor will they ever be. They're a few bad decisions away from being right back in with the rest of the pack.

Well, I hope you are right, but for the second season in a row, all 3 teams who came up are going straight back down again, and it’s difficult to make a case for us, Sheff U, Leeds and any of the other possible promotion contenders staying up next season.

I suspect that the premier league is becoming a closed shop and success stories like us under Dyche, Stoke City under Pulis and Bolton under Allardyce are becoming a thing of the past.

The game has simply moved on so quickly and the level of the premier league is now unbelievably high and only likely to keep improving.

[aclaretinstevenage]

Some opinions are quite scary. Seeing Ben Mee touted as a replacement for Esteve is just barmy. Esteve is arguably a better quality of player than Mee ever was, and Mee is closing in on 36 and has hardly played this season. Mee was a superb servant for this club and was a cracking player in a setup that got the best out of him, but his time has gone.

Exactly right!

[Rileybobs]

Well, I hope you are right, but for the second season in a row, all 3 teams who came up are going straight back down again, and it’s difficult to make a case for us, Sheff U, Leeds and any of the other possible promotion contenders staying up next season.

I suspect that the premier league is becoming a closed shop and success stories like us under Dyche, Stoke City under Pulis and Bolton under Allardyce are becoming a thing of the past.

The game has simply moved on so quickly and the level of the premier league is now unbelievably high and only likely to keep improving.

The gap has recently got bigger, but the three teams promoted the season before us in 2022 are currently in the top half of the PL.

[Colburn_Claret]

Let's be honest, the prem has 'moved on' recently

Brighton, Forest, Brentford, Palace, Bournemouth, Everton and Fulham, all sides we regularly took points off are now miles away

I just don't see how a championship side can survive these days

Very difficult, but the solution has to be different from the tried and failed spend, spend, spend.

We have a real togetherness, that VK destroyed last season, we need to take it forward. Then instead of buying loads of players, just buy 2 or 3, that can improve the starting XI.

Even if we fail, we won't have failed, if you know what I mean.

[RVclaret]

The gap has recently got bigger, but the three teams promoted the season before us in 2022 are currently in the top half of the PL.

And all 3 with billionaire owners & wage bills 50-90% bigger than our biggest ever!

[boatshed bill]

Don't you think Pope would be good enough for us?

Obviously it isn't going to happen, but he's still very good at PL level.

We would lose out financially with this sort of transfer. Pope is unfortunately past his best and we would be looking for a new GK relatively soon.
Club and national managers both see Trafford as a better choice than Pope.

[Ampth7]

And all 3 with billionaire owners & wage bills 50-90% bigger than our biggest ever!

I think that’s the point isn’t it? Money talks at the end of the day and paying Premier League wages isn’t easily affordable!

[Colburn_Claret]

It's easily over looked, because of the injuries, but we do have an over inflated squad imo. Someone has to leave whether we go up or not.
The downside is, many of the injured players won't have done their valuations any good, and be seen as a risk for us as well as potential buyers.

[Rileybobs]

And all 3 with billionaire owners & wage bills 50-90% bigger than our biggest ever!

Yes, but my point is that the Premier League isn’t a closed shop.

[Ampth7]

Yes, but my point is that the Premier League isn’t a closed shop.

Yes, because we still have our Football pyramid that freely enables teams to go up and down the leagues, it’s not right to say the premier league is a closed shop. However, the optics over the last few years aren’t great for the game in my opinion. I say this because there does now appear to be a massive gap between the top of the Championship and the Premier League which can only be bridged by having some serious wedge to spend on transfers and wages.

[exilecanada]

After this season it will be the first time in the leagues history that the 17 teams that survive will have had a minimum of 4 seasons of premier league football in a row.

So I think it’s very easy to say that the gap has never been bigger. We effectively need to play serious catch up this summer to even stand a chance

Wow that really is a telling statistic, promotion to PL is rapidly becoming an exercise in futility. On the other side of the coin there's not much wrong with being a 'yo yo' team, an infusion of extra cash every few years should keep us competitive in the Championship.

[boyyanno]

After this season it will be the first time in the leagues history that the 17 teams that survive will have had a minimum of 4 seasons of premier league football in a row.

So I think it’s very easy to say that the gap has never been bigger. We effectively need to play serious catch up this summer to even stand a chance

I personally don't see how the gap can get "bigger" as such. There's a certain amount of teams, a finite amount of places that can be utilised and a list of players that goes from worst to best. If we're saying that the quality in the PL goes forward then I argue that it trickles down, which is why we have players like Trafford, Esteve and Edwards and Sunderland have Le Fee for example.

I appreciate there is a massive money gap but I honestly believe what i said earlier which is that a massive part of the problem is the difference between what's required in the Champ and the PL and how teams tackle the transition. Everyone who has gone up recently has thought they could replicate the same thing at a higher level against "better" and "more expensive" players. The answer at the moment seems to be buy as many of these perceived better players as possible to give you the quality to keep doing it, but no one has managed to get close by doing that. Teams aren't being given chance to grow together and improve as we did over a period of time under Dyche.

I've seen people commenting about how they wouldn't want Pope next year because of his ability on the ball. I'm not so sure myself, if we have another season of trying to play possession football in our own half at the level above its going to be another long one.

I honestly think that when one of the promoted sides does somthing differently they'll do alright.

[ClaretPete001]

I think you have to develop the Dyche model, which is to have a whole club ethos and bring in players that fit the ethos.

It is noticeable that Marcus Edwards has really improved the teams ability to get forward and create chances. However, we haven't got a forward that can take advantage of those opportunities. Bristol City was probably the best example. So, Parker deserves a lot of credit in that he has resolved some of the issues he faced but some of the players don't fit the model. Over time you have to replace those players but to do it and make money is a challenge.

The problem we have is that we don't own key players like Edwards and we may lose Brownhill, Esteve and Egan Riley, which means that we cannot do what Dyche did, which is develop over a period of time. ALKs big problem is that you have to constantly rotate the squad to fund to fund the financial deficit. And we are not immune to making bad signings. Few smaller clubs can keep players that break league records - in this case defensively.

I think the only was to sustain the club is to be brave and accept relegation from the PL as a factor; buy players that work hard and fit the model but as importantly are likely to be a success in the Championship as well as the PL. Parker has built the nucleus of a good squad for the PL much better than VK but we need to retain those players, get the squad size down to 25/26 and fund a £100 million transfer budget.

Easier said than done..!

[ChorltonCharlie]

Nobody touted that, you've created an opinion to disagree with. It was an example of something we could do theoretically which would fit into the idea of a moneyball approach.

We can get into semantics about me using the word touted, but 4 times before I posted you suggested Mee as a signing, and in one post said this... "Theoretically though, losing Trafford and Eateve for a combined 80 million. Replacing with Mee on a free and Ramsdale would give us a hell of a lot of money and may in some ways make us more suited to the task at hand"

Is it something we could theoretically do? Yes.
Would it lead to us staying? Highly doubtful.
Is buying past their best players at the end of their career the 'Moneyball approach'? Absolutely not.

The moneyball approach is identifying players who have not yet reached their peak that other clubs of similar stature have and would turn their noses up at. It's hoping we've seen something they missed. Esteve is a perfect example of this. We took a chance on someone others didn't want and gave him a platform to show his ability and he's been an unqualified success. Esteve's replacement needs to be another Esteve, whether that's someone who's 18 or 25.

[boyyanno]

We can get into semantics about me using the word touted, but 4 times before I posted you suggested Mee as a signing, and in one post said this... "Theoretically though, losing Trafford and Eateve for a combined 80 million. Replacing with Mee on a free and Ramsdale would give us a hell of a lot of money and may in some ways make us more suited to the task at hand"

Is it something we could theoretically do? Yes.
Would it lead to us staying? Highly doubtful.
Is buying past their best players at the end of their career the 'Moneyball approach'? Absolutely not.

The moneyball approach is identifying players who have not yet reached their peak that other clubs of similar stature have and would turn their noses up at. It's hoping we've seen something they missed. Esteve is a perfect example of this. We took a chance on someone others didn't want and gave him a platform to show his ability and he's been an unqualified success. Esteve's replacement needs to be another Esteve, whether that's someone who's 18 or 25.

That's not an accurate representation of moneyball either though.

Fundamentally moneyball is about identifying players who are undervalued for a variety of reasons, one of those could be age (both young and high), but similarly it could be someone like Pope who is a very good PL goalkeeper but not fashionable because he's less capable with the ball at his feet.

[Goliath]

We can get into semantics about me using the word touted, but 4 times before I posted you suggested Mee as a signing, and in one post said this... "Theoretically though, losing Trafford and Eateve for a combined 80 million. Replacing with Mee on a free and Ramsdale would give us a hell of a lot of money and may in some ways make us more suited to the task at hand"

Is it something we could theoretically do? Yes.
Would it lead to us staying? Highly doubtful.
Is buying past their best players at the end of their career the 'Moneyball approach'? Absolutely not.

The moneyball approach is identifying players who have not yet reached their peak that other clubs of similar stature have and would turn their noses up at. It's hoping we've seen something they missed. Esteve is a perfect example of this. We took a chance on someone others didn't want and gave him a platform to show his ability and he's been an unqualified success. Esteve's replacement needs to be another Esteve, whether that's someone who's 18 or 25.

Well thanks for trying to explain to me what I said. If you look above that I said selling Esteve would be a step too far. It's almost as if people want to find something to be outraged by.

You have also regurgitated the common misconception that it is signing players before their peak of a younger age. That's not necessarily the case, it's just finding value in a player using statistical analysis that others havent.

Someone like Big Sam would actually be a good example of it without using the moneyball terminology. Finding old has beens such as Djorkaeff, Herrero, Campos and Okocha along with some brilliant value younger players such as Anelka and Kevin Davies etc, that were all overlooked by bigger clubs for various reasons.

I recommend re watching the film. Buying old players was very much a part of the strategy. But in reality age isn't important, it's value, regardless of age.

Another good example off the top of my head would be Graham Alexander. He was done as a full back and everyone knew it which allowed us to get him relatively cheaply. However, Cotterill had realised he could deploy him in his old central midfield position and make him a seriously important player at that level. Luckily Coyle seemed to find the same solution. You could relate that to the Hatteburg situation from the film.

[Conroy92]

I think the only was to sustain the club is to be brave and accept relegation from the PL as a factor; buy players that work hard and fit the model but as importantly are likely to be a success in the Championship as well as the PL. Parker has built the nucleus of a good squad for the PL much better than VK but we need to retain those players, get the squad size down to 25/26 and fund a £100 million transfer budget.

This for me. And it's why I think we will struggle next season if we go up. You don't transition your side in one window. Yet all teams fall in the trap.
Sell on relegation, rebuild to gain promotion, buy for survival. Rinse and repeat.

Survival in the premier league should not be planned for on promotion. It's where all teams are going wrong. It should be planned for on relegation.

People get very eaten up around signing premier league players that can help you survive. This method tends to see you, spunk a lot of money and also tends to see these perceived better players jumping ship at the end of season.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I would rather see us sign 11 Traffords than 11 Amdouni/Tresors in the premier league. Even if they aren't quite ready.

Retain them on relegation, add to them and develop them with a view that when we come up again we'll be stronger.

It may take the club to take a "hit" one window.

[Colburn_Claret]

Marcus Edwards is a wonderful player, but I don't get the reasoning that he would have changed our season.
Our issue was always getting in to good areas, and not putting the ball in the box. See an opportunity then pass it back to the halfway line. The whole team have been playing the ball in earlier, lower and harder for sometime. I don't believe it's because of ME, rather a change in approach by SP.

[ClaretPete001]

Marcus Edwards is a wonderful player, but I don't get the reasoning that he would have changed our season.
Our issue was always getting in to good areas, and not putting the ball in the box. See an opportunity then pass it back to the halfway line. The whole team have been playing the ball in earlier, lower and harder for sometime. I don't believe it's because of ME, rather a change in approach by SP.

Fair point, but I tend to think SP intended to play earlier ball faster and harder the difference is the players have learned to play in the shape better as the season has unfolded and Edwards has given us a second option other than Anthony, which has made a difference.

I think Laurent plays better in the double pivot albeit there are better players in the squad, so I think he improved the system but we lack a striker. Creating so many chances against BC and only scoring from a brilliant free kick is a concern.

[Newcastleclaret93]

I personally don't see how the gap can get "bigger" as such. There's a certain amount of teams, a finite amount of places that can be utilised and a list of players that goes from worst to best. If we're saying that the quality in the PL goes forward then I argue that it trickles down, which is why we have players like Trafford, Esteve and Edwards and Sunderland have Le Fee for example.

I appreciate there is a massive money gap but I honestly believe what i said earlier which is that a massive part of the problem is the difference between what's required in the Champ and the PL and how teams tackle the transition. Everyone who has gone up recently has thought they could replicate the same thing at a higher level against "better" and "more expensive" players. The answer at the moment seems to be buy as many of these perceived better players as possible to give you the quality to keep doing it, but no one has managed to get close by doing that. Teams aren't being given chance to grow together and improve as we did over a period of time under Dyche.

I've seen people commenting about how they wouldn't want Pope next year because of his ability on the ball. I'm not so sure myself, if we have another season of trying to play possession football in our own half at the level above its going to be another long one.

I honestly think that when one of the promoted sides does somthing differently they'll do alright.

It’s getting bigger because all these teams have years of spending massive money on both wages and fees.

Yes there is a trickle down but it’s knowhere near enough.

I would argue all these players you have mentioned would struggle to start in nearly all of the 17 secure teams. That is how big the gap is.

[boyyanno]

It’s getting bigger because all these teams have years of spending massive money on both wages and fees.

Yes there is a trickle down but it’s knowhere near enough.

I would argue all these players you have mentioned would struggle to start in nearly all of the 17 secure teams. That is how big the gap is.

The teams in the PL have always had the money though, teams below have always had to take cheaper players. But that doesn't suddenly make the cheaper players worse than they were before does it? It doesn't make the more expensive ones better either so it doesn't really widen the gap at all.

[Spijed]

I would argue all these players you have mentioned would struggle to start in nearly all of the 17 secure teams. That is how big the gap is.

But if the gap is getting bigger then how come players such as McNeil, Tarkowski, Wood & Pope are sill doing well in the Prem?

They were playing for us over five years ago, and yet all are still going strong.

It's been said that our team that got into Europe would now struggle in the Prem, yet many of those players are still doing very well.

[Ampth7]

I personally don't see how the gap can get "bigger" as such. There's a certain amount of teams, a finite amount of places that can be utilised and a list of players that goes from worst to best. If we're saying that the quality in the PL goes forward then I argue that it trickles down, which is why we have players like Trafford, Esteve and Edwards and Sunderland have Le Fee for example.

I appreciate there is a massive money gap but I honestly believe what i said earlier which is that a massive part of the problem is the difference between what's required in the Champ and the PL and how teams tackle the transition. Everyone who has gone up recently has thought they could replicate the same thing at a higher level against "better" and "more expensive" players. The answer at the moment seems to be buy as many of these perceived better players as possible to give you the quality to keep doing it, but no one has managed to get close by doing that. Teams aren't being given chance to grow together and improve as we did over a period of time under Dyche.

I've seen people commenting about how they wouldn't want Pope next year because of his ability on the ball. I'm not so sure myself, if we have another season of trying to play possession football in our own half at the level above its going to be another long one.

I honestly think that when one of the promoted sides does somthing differently they'll do alright.

Interesting points, although I’m not sure what you mean by do something differently? I’m interested to know your thoughts on what could/should be done differently to bridge the gap if promoted.