Cashless Society

[Big Vinny K]

Been debated on the board I know previously but MPs are currently considering bringing in new laws to force businesses, retail shops and services to accept cash.

I think I’m right in saying that the concourses, hospitality, etc at Burnley FC have all refused cash in the last couple of seasons. The club shop do still accept cash though I think.

Generally speaking the parts of society who still like to use cash are the older end of the generation. There are also a number of people across all age spans who use cash because it helps them budget better - again generalisation but this has historically been those on a lower income with less money to play with / fall back on every week.

I hope this legislation goes through and businesses are told that they cannot refuse cash. If there are certain exemptions which ease the burden on small businesses then this would be even better. The situation is not helped by the fact that businesses are charged so much by financial institutions for paying in cash - and one of the biggest culprits and also largest acceptor of cash is the Post Office. Unfortunately it’s way beyond the complexity of any government for a bit of joined up thinking and trying to address some of the issues as to why many businesses have gone down the route of refusing cash payments in the first place.

I believe it’s wrong for a business like Burnley FC to refuse cash payments.
1. They can afford to pay bank charges
2…..and most importantly many of the people who attend the games every week are exactly the type that the legislation is looking to protect. I cannot think of another event or situation where so many people of the older generation are all at the same place looking to make low value transactions like buying a tea or pie.

And I am not saying that the older generations don’t know how to use cards or mobile payment technology. We all know loads that do. The difference is that we also know plenty who don’t whereas compare that to other generations who have grown up only knowing cards, Apple Pay, Monza etc

[GetIntoEm]

I don't carry cash, ever, or hardly ever unless for a specific reason.

Prefer paying by card. Just my opinion.

Small businesses should have to take card payments as well as cash. They prefer cash because theirs less accounting paper trail

The "card fees" debate isn't valid anymore, high street banks charge just as much for banking cash into a business account as you would pay in card fees. Card fees are next to nothing these days.

(Small businesses owner)

[Anonymous Claret]

I also agree that businesses should not refuse cash. A couple of years ago I made the decision not to spend anymore money on the concourse at BFC.

I always used to have at least a coffee and maybe some food before the game and at half time. I complied by using my card for a season or 2 and then decided I wouldn't continue participating in something that I vehemently disagreed with.

There are so many potential risks for the public if cash is completely removed from society. I try to use cash whenever possible. I will walk away from businesses that don't give me that choice. As the old adage goes if we don't use we will lose it.

There has been an example recently in France, Spain and Portugal where power outages occurred and people couldn't access public transport, ATMs or pay for food in restaurants etc. For the people who had no physical cash it was an horrific situation.

I despise the banks with a passion. Everytime there is an online transaction in my business account there is a charge of 35p each transaction. It cripples small businesses. Whilst I am on a rant if you ever fancy a takeaway please contact the business direct and pay cash if possible. If you can't pay cash, pay by card if you have no available cash. Please don't use apps like Just Eat etc as they take massive commissions from the take aways.

And if you ever fancy a taxi, please phone a private hire firm rather than Uber. Uber is another organisation whose largest shareholders are investment companies like Black Rock and Vangaurd.

[Big Vinny K]

I don't carry cash, ever, or hardly ever unless for a specific reason.

Prefer paying by card. Just my opinion.

Small businesses should have to take card payments as well as cash. They prefer cash because theirs less accounting paper trail

The "card fees" debate isn't valid anymore, high street banks charge just as much for banking cash into a business account as you would pay in card fees. Card fees are next to nothing these days.

(Small businesses owner)

The charges for paying cash into your business account have been higher than card charges for a lot of years now. Cash is by a distance the most expensive transaction for banks to process and it’s all done by third party cash processing firms anyway. In previous years banks could negotiate big volume discounts for cash processing but a lot of this has gone because the volumes have reversed significantly. For card and other automated transactions (direct debits, standing orders etc) the reverse has been true because the volumes of these types of transactions have increased exponentially and the costs for processing correspondingly reduced.

But the debate is and legislation they are looking to bring in is more in relation to the public and how they pay for goods and services rather than the business owners. The argument being that customers should have the choice and if they prefer cash they should be allowed to.

There is a concept termed as digital poverty….estimates are that 4 million people do not have any access to any kind of mobile or digital technology. And on top of this there is an estimated many more millions who are not digitally literate enough to use technology for online banking, bill payments etc etc.

[Quicknick]

I pay for everything by cash if I can.

[GetIntoEm]

I agree there should be a choice, by the same way businesses should not be cash only or charging minimum amounts to use card (these places still exist despite being told it's not allowed anymore)

I'm sure there are some with no access to internet banking, but I don't believe it's in the millions, it'll be a minority.

I agree on the whole though.

Although it's a different topic, what grinds my gears is the narrative that businesses push for cash citing "card charges" as the reason, when it's not that at all.

[dsr]

I don't think governments should interfere. They get involved too much anyway. Government bodies themselves (eg. council car parks) ought to use cash IMO as a matter of policy, but not enforce it on private businesses.

One reason businesses prefer cash is that there are no charges at all on spending it. Take cash in, pay it out, charges = zero. Take credit in, pay credit out, charges = 2 or 3%. 3% of turnover might be 30% of net profit.

[beddie]

I know a number of people of similar age to me (Senior) who only use cash as it’s their way of budgeting, I too believe every business should take cash.

[Rowls]

Allowing businesses to refuse cash (whatever its virtues) was a knee jerk piece of legislation during covid and the lockdown hysteria.

There are good arguments on both sides of the coin, so to speak, but it wasn't debated properly and the electorate have been denied the chance to have their say on the matter.

[Rowls]

One reason businesses prefer cash is that there are no charges at all on spending it. Take cash in, pay it out, charges = zero. Take credit in, pay credit out, charges = 2 or 3%. 3% of turnover might be 30% of net profit.

True, there are no transaction charges.

But there are costs: Time spent tallying tills, theft and loss of petty cash, collection and drop off etc.

[Bacchus]

In a previous life I worked for a large retailer. The cost of insurance related to having cash on site, loss due to theft or error, fees paid to security companies for handling & banking the cash, the cost (and effort involved) in making sure each outlet had sufficient coin to be able to offer change to customers, cost of effort both onsite and in head office functions of tracking & reconciling the cash, spent plus countless other impacts of handling large volumes of cash were not insignificant. I know there is a transaction charge associated with electronic payments, but cost of handling cash is often forgotten in this conversation.

I think there is an argument that 'essential service' type settings (public transport, banks, supermarkets, etc.) should have to accept cash but I struggle to see an argument for compelling every retailer / service provider to do so. As alluded to by others, cash businesses are in many cases wide open to fraud, tax evasion, money laundering etc.

[mikeS]

For smaller payments I prefer cash. Larger payments card.
Paying for coffee at the AlexElder in the BL during this season has shown that the card readers don't always work. (Signal problems?) and they don't accept cash.
Been told several times to move to another queue.
When they do work and you eventually get a bank statement, the items shown often have dates and transaction names that you don't immediately recognisehave to think, "what was that payment for?" Many card payment places including the Turf don't automatically give receipts which would help when you're checking your statement.
After being scammed a few years ago I'm pretty wary of giving my card details out tbh.

[dushanbe]

Allowing businesses to refuse cash (whatever its virtues) was a knee jerk piece of legislation during covid and the lockdown hysteria.

There are good arguments on both sides of the coin, so to speak, but it wasn't debated properly and the electorate have been denied the chance to have their say on the matter.

I'm not sure where you got that from, businesses have been able to accept or refuse any payment type they like forever.

[Boss Hogg]

Personally like the choice. I like to be able to live without technology too and not be dependent on it.

[ChorltonCharlie]

I know of decent sized towns that don't have a bank. From a business point of view, if your bank is an hours drive away, plus the inconvenience of parking in large town, then taking cash is a huge hassle that many small businesses can now do without.

[Buxtonclaret]

These last couple of years, or so, I've made a conscious decision to pay in cash, for everything I'm able to.

[elwaclaret]

I know of decent sized towns that don't have a bank. From a business point of view, if your bank is an hours drive away, plus the inconvenience of parking in large town, then taking cash is a huge hassle that many small businesses can now do without.

Not many do not have pop in facilities for cash withdrawals, besides ATM machines.

[ChorltonCharlie]

ATM machines are no good for all the change though. I'm just going off arguments I've seen in remote tourist towns which feel they have no choice but to go to cashless.

[elwaclaret]

While I understand the desire for cashless (traceability, money laundering etc) technology is prone to fail. I had no opinion on this until my Card was refused (erroneously) and then when I tried to withdraw the cash my card was swallowed. The later bank apology did nothing to put petrol into my car leaving me stranded a hundred miles from home.

[Rowls]

I'm not sure where you got that from, businesses have been able to accept or refuse any payment type they like forever.

You're right. Looks like I've dreamt that up and mixed it up with the number of businesses refusing cash of their own accord during the pandemic. Must've been some politician talking about it that I was incorrectly recalling.

In my defence, I wasn't living in the UK at the time...

[dsr]

ATM machines are no good for all the change though. I'm just going off arguments I've seen in remote tourist towns which feel they have no choice but to go to cashless.

Where it gets stupid is when there's a power cut or for some other reason the card machines aren't working, and they still refuse to take cash. You would think the first priority would be to sell stuff, and worry about getting the money to the bank later.

(Sainsbury's a year or two back had the cards-not-working problem, but they happily took cash.)

[Plissken]

They prefer cash because theirs less accounting paper trail

Absolute rubbish.

The "card fees" debate isn't valid anymore, high street banks charge just as much for banking cash into a business account as you would pay in card fees

Absolute rubbish.

(Small businesses owner)

(Owner of two small businesses in both the online and customer facing space.)

[Big Vinny K]

I know of decent sized towns that don't have a bank. From a business point of view, if your bank is an hours drive away, plus the inconvenience of parking in large town, then taking cash is a huge hassle that many small businesses can now do without.

Does Nelson have a bank now ?
Not sure it does

Barnoldswick has one of the banking hubs - which are actually a great idea but there’s just nowhere near enough across the country.

[Plissken]

I know of decent sized towns that don't have a bank. From a business point of view, if your bank is an hours drive away, plus the inconvenience of parking in large town, then taking cash is a huge hassle that many small businesses can now do without.

You can deposit at any Post Office. Usually open at better hours, too.

[BurnleyFC]

I never normally carry cash but I will do from now on.

We were caught up in the power outages in Portugal on Monday and it was carnage. Nothing, and I mean nothing electric or electronic worked.

[JohnMcGreal]

Cash? That's just another man-made concept designed to control people.

I use the bartering system.

[Big Vinny K]

Cash? That's just another man-made concept designed to control people.

I use the bartering system.

Aye - you and David Cameron both said that’s why you were taking a pig home from the market

[GetIntoEm]

Absolute rubbish.



Absolute rubbish.



(Owner of two small businesses in both the online and customer facing space.)

Thanks for your well thought out response.

[Plissken]

Maybe it's because I've spent this morning making sure my accounts are accurate and then come to UTC to read some pub bore spouting off about small business owners being tax dodgers and getting things factually incorrect and for some reason get a little bit grumpy about it.

[kentonclaret]

Large retail businesses that refuse to accept cash put themselves at the risk of hackers. M & S have been unable to process contactless payments in some outlets for more than a week and their online ordering system has had to be suspended. Even empty shelves in some stores due to order processing and delivery problems.
Hacking is on the increase and only today it has been reported that the Co-Op has been targeted.

[Plissken]

There is no correlation between businesses going cashless and getting hacked.

BTW, which large retail business refuses to accept cash? Because M&S certainly don't.

[kentonclaret]

There is no correlation between businesses going cashless and getting hacked.

BTW, which large retail business refuses to accept cash? Because M&S certainly don't.

M & S no longer accept cash for certain transactions. For years I used to pay off my M & S Credit Card at a till point in cash. A few months ago I was told that cash was no longer accepted, card payments only.
The majority of supermarkets have cut the number of self service till points that accept Cash & Card, if you want to pay Cash you have to wait until one becomes available.

[GetIntoEm]

Maybe it's because I've spent this morning making sure my accounts are accurate and then come to UTC to read some pub bore spouting off about small business owners being tax dodgers and getting things factually incorrect and for some reason get a little bit grumpy about it.

Don't be so aggressive and offensive.

What I have stated is correct, card transaction fees are negligible these days, usually cheaper than banking cash. Fact.

With that being the case, why do small businesses want cash?

Why is there a push from the government to crack down on "cash transaction heavy" businesses like vape shops and barbers?

[Plissken]

M & S no longer accept cash for certain transactions. For years I used to pay off my M & S Credit Card at a till point in cash. A few months ago I was told that cash was no longer accepted, card payments only.

That's actually a security thing around money laundering rather than dropping of accepting cash.

[Plissken]

Don't be so aggressive and offensive.

Don't call me a tax dodger.

What I have stated is correct, card transaction fees are negligible these days, usually cheaper than banking cash. Fact.

The total charges for me paying cash into the business bank accounts that I have for my businesses for the past 15 years is £0.00p. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

Fact.

With that being the case,

Except it ain't. See above.

why do small businesses want cash?

Because their customers want to pay using it. Small businesses, especially right now, consider all customers welcome, irrespective of age, colour, creed or nationality, as long as their money is good.

Why is there a push from the government to crack down on "cash transaction heavy" businesses like vape shops and barbers?

Ah hell, can't hear you due to a dog whistle going off. Admittedly it's the Government blowing it, but there you go.

[jrgbfc]

Does Nelson have a bank now ?
Not sure it does

Barnoldswick has one of the banking hubs - which are actually a great idea but there’s just nowhere near enough across the country.

Not sure about Nelson, but the only bank left in Colne is due to close this summer. Talk of getting a banking hub but we'll see.

[dsr]

Not sure about Nelson, but the only bank left in Colne is due to close this summer. Talk of getting a banking hub but we'll see.

Perhaps typical Colne, the last-but-one bank to close turned into a pub.

[NottsClaret]

Can't remember the last time I used cash, other than to buy a raffle ticket at kids football. Surprised to hear how many still use it, not that I've anything against it, just seems like something from a bygone era. I only use my phone now for pretty much everything money, business or banking related.

[AlargeClaret]

Surely it’s any businesses choice what form of payment they accept ? Cash now seems incredibly quaint , awkward , and almost entirely unnecessary. I use cash at barbers , boxing and matchday parking ( though the UK wide laundering via barbers/Kebab/ vape shops etc it’s quite staggering and on an almost industrial scale .)

Businesswise all my takings are online now as banking cash was an incredible ballache . Apart from an “emergency” £20 note in the car ( blow jobs/kebabs etc ) I never actually carry cash per se .

[Plissken]

Can't remember the last time I used cash, other than to buy a raffle ticket at kids football. Surprised to hear how many still use it, not that I've anything against it, just seems like something from a bygone era. I only use my phone now for pretty much everything money, business or banking related.

I buy Clarets tickets for someone else and his friend - have two for Millwall this weekend. I've bought them online. Because one of the two has various mental health issues, he doesn't have a credit or debit card or mobile phone - they have been taken advantage of in the past. So I buy them and he pays me in cash, which I drop off at the Post Office on the Tuesday following a game, along with the cash that my father-in-law gives me for his weekly shop, seeing as he is blind and can't use a mobile phone or internet banking (because it requires passcodes and so on). I get the cash out for him from the ATM.

Look, I know I'm sounding arsey in a thread and I don't particularly care, but the usual suspects are posting "well, I'm alright Jack" type posts and as usual making massive generalisations due to their own ignorance, ego and unwillingness to consider that possibly, just possibly, other people are not in the same situation as them - let alone more knowledgeable than them.

Cash is still useful, is still widely used - though obviously not as much as it used to be - and certain sectors of society really could do with it hanging around. Despite the lack of in person banking facilities - which is frankly criminal IMO - there are options out there such as Post Offices, many of which are in small businesses and shops that would also welcome trade in the other stuff they sell.

I suppose it is a small blessing that the thread didn't devolve into "use cash, the Government is tracking you with digital currency" paranoid rambling.

[yTib]

I suppose it is a small blessing that the thread didn't devolve into "use cash, the Government is tracking you with digital currency" paranoid rambling.

give it time.

[Plissken]

Ha!

[miele-man]

I’m 67 and I haven’t had cash in my pocket for a long time , the only time I need some is for the chippy outside the ground .
Cash only signs at any establishment is a green light for the HMRC to keep an eye .
It’s how we all managed to extract funds out of the business without a trail , those days have gone .

[Clovius Boofus]

It feels like years since I last used cash regularly. These days I only use it for tipping.

[Bow]

There’s loads of places you can’t use cash anymore. Try paying for a bus journey in London with only cash and see how far you get.

There will come a point soon enough where having the option to accept cash becomes too big a hassle to offer.

All these signs you see in small businesses saying “we prefer cash” make me laugh- I’m sure you do, but HMRC won’t.

[exilecanada]

These days I only use it for tipping.

Tipping? What's this tipping nonsense all about?

[exilecanada]

I suppose it is a small blessing that the thread didn't devolve into "use cash, the Government is tracking you with digital currency" paranoid rambling.

Are you saying you don't think Government don't track your digital currency activities if need be? Wow, just wow, what rock are you under?

[TheFamilyCat]

There’s loads of places you can’t use cash anymore. Try paying for a bus journey in London with only cash and see how far you get.

There will come a point soon enough where having the option to accept cash becomes too big a hassle to offer.

All these signs you see in small businesses saying “we prefer cash” make me laugh- I’m sure you do, but HMRC won’t.

Situations like that shouldn't be allowed. A vulnerable person who only has cash, for example, shouldn't be refused transport.

Busineses in areas where there is competition can do as they please as far as I'm concerned. It's customer choice and they can take their business elsewhere if they can't pay for their chippy tea with cash.

As for the Turf, there's no alternative so customers can't take their business elsewhere, just decide not to buy. I wonder how many people now refuse to spend on the concourse due to being cashless and whether the club has researched how much they might be losing.

[Taffy on the wing]

Been debated on the board I know previously but MPs are currently considering bringing in new laws to force businesses, retail shops and services to accept cash.

I think I’m right in saying that the concourses, hospitality, etc at Burnley FC have all refused cash in the last couple of seasons. The club shop do still accept cash though I think.

Generally speaking the parts of society who still like to use cash are the older end of the generation. There are also a number of people across all age spans who use cash because it helps them budget better - again generalisation but this has historically been those on a lower income with less money to play with / fall back on every week.

I hope this legislation goes through and businesses are told that they cannot refuse cash. If there are certain exemptions which ease the burden on small businesses then this would be even better. The situation is not helped by the fact that businesses are charged so much by financial institutions for paying in cash - and one of the biggest culprits and also largest acceptor of cash is the Post Office. Unfortunately it’s way beyond the complexity of any government for a bit of joined up thinking and trying to address some of the issues as to why many businesses have gone down the route of refusing cash payments in the first place.

I believe it’s wrong for a business like Burnley FC to refuse cash payments.
1. They can afford to pay bank charges
2…..and most importantly many of the people who attend the games every week are exactly the type that the legislation is looking to protect. I cannot think of another event or situation where so many people of the older generation are all at the same place looking to make low value transactions like buying a tea or pie.

And I am not saying that the older generations don’t know how to use cards or mobile payment technology. We all know loads that do. The difference is that we also know plenty who don’t whereas compare that to other generations who have grown up only knowing cards, Apple Pay, Monza etc

Banks charging money for customers to deposit cash?...... that should be illegal for a start!
As should refusing cash transactions, some people wether by choice or because they've fallen on hard times can't or won't use credit/bank cards.

As for the banks, since Taxpayers bailed them out, they've done nothing but come up with new, more creative ways to fleece their customers & increase profit....same goes for the airlines.
Where will it all end?
The customer is nothing more than something to exploit for profit.

[ChrisG]

Here in Germany, cash is still king, I've taken more cash out in the last 2 years than I did in the previous 20 in the UK.