Millwalls goal - offside?

[willsclarets]

I've just watched it again, and to say he's nowhere near is absolutely nonsense. If anything that picture makes it look better than it was because of momentum. Im just as astounded as you guys that you don't think its a foul. But we'll be disagreeing all day so let's leave it there.

[ClaretTony]

I've just watched it again, and to say he's nowhere near is absolutely nonsense. If anything that picture makes it look better than it was because of momentum. Im just as astounded as you guys that you don't think its a foul. But we'll be disagreeing all day so let's leave it there.

Not nonsense at all. It is not a foul, simple as that. I’d try watching it again if I were you.

[willsclarets]

Not nonsense at all. It is not a foul, simple as that. I’d try watching it again if I were you.

I just did, and I am more convinced than ever its a foul.

[Tricky Trevor]

So you offer a still picture that doesn’t reflect the incident at all. I’ve watched it time and again and there is absolute no foul.

Check out the Millwall player reaction. It tells you everything.

Yourself, Phil Bird and many others on here come from the John McEnroe school whereby every decision has to go Burnleys way. I’m like that in game but have the sense to see things with eyes open once it’s done. We’ll have to agree to differ. We and the Millwall lad are so lucky he didn’t catch him. It was a red card for us and a possible leg break for him.

[RVclaret]

Yourself, Phil Bird and many others on here come from the John McEnroe school whereby every decision has to go Burnleys way. I’m like that in game but have the sense to see things with eyes open once it’s done. We’ll have to agree to differ. We and the Millwall lad are so lucky he didn’t catch him. It was a red card for us and a possible leg break for him.

Absolutely baffling.

[Tricky Trevor]

Absolutely baffling.

I take it you’ve never kicked the sole of a football boot. That is why leading with your studs is a no-no. If their lad had kicked through the ball and caught Ashs boot he was in trouble.

[Wokingclaret]

I take it you’ve never kicked the sole of a football boot. That is why leading with your studs is a no-no. If their lad had kicked through the ball and caught Ashs boot he was in trouble.

Barnes foot was down and curved to the ball, if anything the Millwall player was going in at Pace, look at the ground he made up.

[taio]

Only a matter of time before someone suggested that if you don't think it was a red card then you haven't played football. The opposite is true. It is never a red card because it wasn't even a foul.

[quoonbeatz]

100% if you’ve played football you know that’s not a foul.

[willsclarets]

Only a matter of time before someone suggested that if you don't think it was a red card then you haven't played football. The opposite is true. It is never a red card because it wasn't even a foul.

So in effect it's only a matter if time before you do the exact thing that you're pre-emptively criticising someone else for.

[martin_p]

I think the problem here is that people are referring to it as a tackle when it was a block. Having studs showing isn’t against the rules, in fact it’s pretty much impossible not to have your foot up when you’re attempting to block.

[ClaretTony]

I just did, and I am more convinced than ever its a foul.

And I'm totally convinced it's not, as were the Millwall players.

[ClaretTony]

100% if you’ve played football you know that’s not a foul.

I didn't play it very well quoonbeatz, and I very definitely never nutmegged John Deary, but it is beyond me how anyone can think that's a foul.

[willsclarets]

I think the problem here is that people are referring to it as a tackle when it was a block. Having studs showing isn’t against the rules, in fact it’s pretty much impossible not to have your foot up when you’re attempting to block.

It isn't a block. Watch it Barnes arrives at the ball at the same time as their player, if not before. And he does so.with studs showing, in the air.

The perception seems to be the guy clears it and Barnes blocks the ball, which is completely false

[Burnley1989]

Take your C&B specs off and see how lucky Bashley was to not see red and the goal disallowed. Totally out of control thankfully he missed both the ball and the man but if the Millwall lad had jumped instead of being honest we were down to 10.
IMG_4861.jpeg

More interesting to me is where was Connor Roberts going when Coburn missed the open goal?
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IMG_4863.jpeg

Jesus christ

[taio]

So in effect it's only a matter if time before you do the exact thing that you're pre-emptively criticising someone else for.

It's a fair point but only once the marker had already been put down.

[willsclarets]

Here's the moment just before Barnes touches the ball. The idea he's "miles away" is absolute tripe.

[Rileybobs]

We were saying yesterday if we ever won promotion, we should take 25% of the money and stay where we are. You only have to see the lack of atmosphere in 3 stands yesterday to see what the Premier League money buys. The sooner they start a European Super League the better - the Championship has a better looking fixture list and is more competitive all round.

That’s funny, because from where I sat there was very little coming from the Millwall end. There was a bit of annoying humming at some points which was quite odd, but other than 30 seconds of giddiness before we immediately equalised it didn’t seem like the Millwall players got the backing they needed to get over the line.

[taio]

Here's the moment just before Barnes touches the ball. The idea he's "miles away" is absolute tripe.

Have you got an image of when he actually connects with the ball?

[willsclarets]

Have you got an image of when he actually connects with the ball?

I'll try, tricky with YouTube!

[willsclarets]

Have you got an image of when he actually connects with the ball?

That's about the best I can do.

[willsclarets]

That's about the best I can do.

Although I think it's a foul, my argument isn't that it's a red. I'm not even sure I agree it should be a foul, but in the Premier league looking at slo mo and in Real time, I think it gets chalked. Others obviously disagree that's fine.

[taio]

That's about the best I can do.

So knowing the situation that looks absolutely fine. Shows why a still image isn't that helpful.

[willsclarets]

So knowing the situation that looks absolutely fine. Shows why a still image isn't that helpful.

As per above, the point was to prove it wasn't a block. Its not, it's a 50/50. At that point it's whether you think Barnes is merely harder in the tackle. I see that argument, but disagree (obviously)

[RVclaret]

He doesn’t have two feet off the ground as claimed, clearly slides down to the side of the ball and away from the man, quite clever in order to direct the ball back into the space knowing Brownhill was there. This is a still but the moving version of this is on the clubs instagram, which shows it even clearer, if needed, to be a perfectly legal challenge.

[taio]

As per above, the point was to prove it wasn't a block. Its not, it's a 50/50. At that point it's whether you think Barnes is merely harder in the tackle. I see that argument, but disagree (obviously)

I think that image strengthens the view it was block

[willsclarets]

He doesn’t have two feet off the ground as claimed, clearly slides down to the side of the ball and away from the man, quite clever in order to direct the ball back into the space knowing Brownhill was there. This is a still but the moving version of this is on the clubs instagram.

He did have two feet off the ground when he began his sliding tackle, he jumped in early. The fact he's not airborne at contact is for me one reason why it's never a red. But he's never in control and that image clearly shows his studs up, and fast forward he clears the guy right out. The balls ricochets of Barnes, to say he redirects it in some deliberate way is not true at all.

[taio]

He doesn’t have two feet off the ground as claimed, clearly slides down to the side of the ball and away from the man, quite clever in order to direct the ball back into the space knowing Brownhill was there. This is a still but the moving version of this is on the clubs instagram, which shows it even clearer, if needed, to be a perfectly legal challenge.

This is by far the best still. As you allude to a still often doesn't give a true picture. But this does and supports the view that it wasn't a foul and was certainly never a red card.

[Rileybobs]

Players have two feet off the ground whenever they challenge for a header.

[claretspice]

Personal view - it's a foul from Barnes. Or to be more precise because it is a subjective call, the referee could easily have given a foul and had he done so we couldnt have argued. There is definitely a coming together and Barnes gets very little, if any of the ball in the first instance (I think it ricochets off him after Tangana plays it, but by that point I think Barnes has basically taken Tangana out).

I do think it is wrong to say that no Millwall player claimed a foul. One did, vociferously, as Phil Bird notes on the club commentary.

But I had a very good view of the potential offside for Millwall's goal and i thought it was most likely offside. I also thought Hannibal might well have got a foul on another day because an arm came across as he was breaking down the left wing, although that is another subjective call because there wasn't lots of contact, and that the Millwall lad who might have been offside then used his hand to control the ball on the left edge of the area. My suspicion is Kitchen suspected Millwall had got the rub of the green so he gave Barnes the rub of the green. Fair enough really.

[northeastclaret]

The photo above shows both players in exactly the same position equidistant from the ball and classic 50/50, when Barnes arrives it’s even his body that blocks the ball not his foot.

Both players were as brave as each other and certainly Barnes wasn’t going to back out. A wonderful moment to treasure.

[boatshed bill]

Barnes made the first goal through his tenacity. It was never a foul. I can't believe anyone would think he was lucky not to be sent off.

Whether it's a foul or not, it could easily have been interpreted as one. With no VAR it was down to the ref.

[claretspice]

The photo above shows both players in exactly the same position equidistant from the ball and classic 50/50, when Barnes arrives it’s even his body that blocks the ball not his foot.

Both players were as brave as each other and certainly Barnes wasn’t going to back out. A wonderful moment to treasure.

I think the point is that when you slide in like that and do not play the ball first, and then follow through into the player who did play the ball first, it is very often given as a foul.

[northeastclaret]

I think the point is that when you slide in like that and do not play the ball first, and then follow through into the player who did play the ball first, it is very often given as a foul.

The point is that the reason he didn’t follow through into the player is that it was a block using the side of his leg with the ball going up along his body and behind him. His studs were never going to go into the Millwall player.

[taio]

Whether it's a foul or not, it could easily have been interpreted as one. With no VAR it was down to the ref.

Yes, it could because we see refereeing mistakes too often. This time the ref got it right. The other thing that's being discussed is the bizarre view it could have been a red card.

[claretspice]

The point is that the reason he didn’t follow through into the player is that it was a block using the side of his leg with the ball going up along his body and behind him. His studs were never going to go into the Millwall player.

I think that is a reasonable argument for why it is not violent conduct (i.e. not a red card), but I'm not sure that's the point of debate generally speaking. I'm not sure the studs thing is relevant to whether or not it is a foul. As I explanted, he got man before he made contact with the ball, and the Millwall player played the ball first. Therefore it seems to me there was a pretty fair case that Barnes was late, and impeded Tangana. Obviously, as a Burnley supporter, I'm very pleased the referee saw it differently.

[Bosscat]

Its almost as if some on here wish it had been a "Red Card" and Ash being sent off ...

Its bizaare as its clearly not a foul due to the distance between both players and no contact made ... had there been contact then it would have been a foul and retributions required, but no contact hence NO FOUL

[Ashingtonclaret46]

The referee, who has been much maligned on this board, was in the perfect position to see the incident and there was no offence committed as far as he was concerned. He probably judged it to be a 50/50 challenge which is a normal part of any game.

THe problem is that, in the future, I can see all physical contact being penalised one way or another. It will not control all the stupid wrestling when corners are awarded, nor will it do the game in general any good, however, it appears that the modern fan and the media will be happy when all contact is penalised.

[Vegas Claret]

enjoy the tackle/challenge/foul
https://x.com/BurnleyOfficial/status/19 ... 9823900073

[distortiondave]

Had the ref blown for a foul, could Barnes have been sent off? In the championship with no VAR, I bet he could. The whole thing would've been wrong and overturned after the fact, but feasibly it could have happened, which would have changed the game.
But we are in an age where second tier refs are poor, the desire to send people off is high, the threshold to send people off is low, and still the referee saw nothing wrong.

[Tricky Trevor]

Re:the offside.
A) it looks like an arm bar on Hannibal.one moment he’s ahead of the defender the next he’s on his back.
B) impossible to tell if Coburn is off from tv. The pass and Coburn are never in shot together.
C) Honeyman isn’t offside for two reasons. 1. Coburn laid the ball back to him. 2.His first touch is behind Steve who he ran past before crossing.

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[Dark Cloud]

Let’s face it, Barnes is a thug, always has been. From my perspective behind the goal I thought 100% Red Card. Was amazed he didn’t get one, stunned he didn’t get a yellow and, as for allowing the goal to stand, that’s absolute madness.

Then we have him deliberately clattering our 19 year old 3rd choice keeper. Another Red, and what about your Sideshow Billy rolling around holding his face after being blocked off with an arm across his chest?

Would I want VAR in the Championship though? Never in a million years!

We were saying yesterday if we ever won promotion, we should take 25% of the money and stay where we are. You only have to see the lack of atmosphere in 3 stands yesterday to see what the Premier League money buys. The sooner they start a European Super League the better - the Championship has a better looking fixture list and is more competitive all round.

As for the football, Burnley are miles ahead of our lot and played some great stuff, but we’re getting there and we’ll have our day soon.

Some valid points for sure and some less so (imo). I THINK Barnes is sliding in to block the clearance rather than actually tackle the player and that's exactly what he did. I didn't think Millwall made any real complaints because they'd brought things upon themselves. I don't think Barnes is a thug and he's been a very, very good (clever) player in his day, but he does play a very physical game which he's had to do over the years in the PL to make up for a shortfall in pace and skill at the highest level.
Hannibal is a really good player who is getting better and better, but definitely needs to cut down on the hysterionics and theatricals as it can border on the embarrassing at times, especially when he keeps haranguing the ref ages after he doesn't get the "none" free kick.
Regarding the PL and VAR, yep, it's shite and regarding Championship football, yep it's MILES more entertaining and competitive. The shed loads of cash is the only positive thing clubs like ours get out of being in the PL. Otherwise you can stick it as it's way too far up its own bum. And yep, the top clubs buggering off to a European Super League might just allow English football to find its roots again. Now let's discuss ticket pricing at Tottenham and Arsenal and Man City etc (doing away with concessions, dynamic pricing....) and what will happen when their stupid policies filter down to the likes of us.....

[Blue Skies]

From my view in the CF I cringed at the time. Looking at replays it could have gone either way .and it was a challenge where both players gave their all and Bash came out on top. The beauty of the Championship v the Premier League. Have to say CT having played in a front two with you at Holt House, you would not have gone in like Ash that's for sure!!!!

[willsclarets]

enjoy the tackle/challenge/foul
https://x.com/BurnleyOfficial/status/19 ... 9823900073

I will concede this angle/clip makes me question my conclusion. I never thought it was a red, I think this totally removes that argument. A closer call than I thought given the angle Barnes goes in at. But he still clears the guy out simultaneously with force, basically with his body. I think VAR overturns but can see the counter

[quoonbeatz]

I didn't play it very well quoonbeatz, and I very definitely never nutmegged John Deary, but it is beyond me how anyone can think that's a foul.

Haha, still surprised John didn’t send me into row z after that. He’s have been happy with a challenge like Barnes’.

[martin_p]

I will concede this angle/clip makes me question my conclusion. I never thought it was a red, I think this totally removes that argument. A closer call than I thought given the angle Barnes goes in at. But he still clears the guy out simultaneously with force, basically with his body. I think VAR overturns but can see the counter

Also see how the defender immediately jumps back to his feet. If there’s one thing modern footballers are very good at it’s letting the referee know when they think they’ve been fouled, this guy clearly doesn’t.

[alwaysaclaret]

Although I think it's a foul, my argument isn't that it's a red. I'm not even sure I agree it should be a foul, but in the Premier league looking at slo mo and in Real time, I think it gets chalked. Others obviously disagree that's fine.

Absolutely agree with your point here, the ifs and buts really don't matter, there's a fair chance it would have been chalked off in the prem, which I think was my thought's in the 2nd post on the thread, and especially had it have been against Arsenal.

[Rileybobs]

Re:the offside.
A) it looks like an arm bar on Hannibal.one moment he’s ahead of the defender the next he’s on his back.
B) impossible to tell if Coburn is off from tv. The pass and Coburn are never in shot together.
C) Honeyman isn’t offside for two reasons. 1. Coburn laid the ball back to him. 2.His first touch is behind Steve who he ran past before crossing.
IMG_4865.jpeg

On C.) it’s irrelevant whether the ball was played back or forward.

[Tricky Trevor]

On C.) it’s irrelevant whether the ball was played back or forward.

Serious question. When did this law get changed?
All my playing years you couldn't be offside if the ball was played backwards now I can’t get it in my head.

[Rileybobs]

Serious question. When did this law get changed?
All my playing years you couldn't be offside if the ball was played backwards now I can’t get it in my head.

It’s never been changed to my knowledge and would have been the same in your playing days. I guess there just aren’t many occasions when a ball is passed backwards to someone in an offside position.