Sycamore Gap verdict

[Bacchus]

This case epitomises so much about modern society. Two bell ends who think that mindless destruction is a hilarious route to online infamy now face having their lives ruined at huge expense to the tax payer and will no doubt come out of that experience as even less productive members of society than they are now.

They deserve a significant proverbial kicking (let's be honest, chopping down a very specific tree in the middle of nowhere is hardly a spur of the moment bad decision, it's the kind of scummy vandalism that blights most parts of this country) but surely there is a better way of dealing with this than a prison sentence. Some sort of community service based punishment like spending a year's worth of Saturday evenings planting trees while listening to Coldplay on repeat would be more appropriate.

[fidelcastro]

Where’s the eye roll emoji when you need it!?

I think the country’s problems are a bit bigger for just my eyes to deal with!

Please bear in mind that the aforementioned crime data is absolutely clear on this issue and comes from the Home Office!!! It’s not ‘fake news’, it’s genuine data and information being reported by just about every single media outlet in the country! You can literally Google search said problem and you will be inundated with endless articles saying exactly the same thing!!

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

[NewClaret]

How would you have your way with them?

They’d have no hands to play on their station, put it that way

[Exeterclaret]

10 years of Playstations funded by good honest taxpayers that's exactly what we don't need!

Have you seen what prisons are like in Norway? I wouldn't bother looking if I were you mate. Gotta watch the blood pressure.

[agreenwood]

I reckon these lads are angels compared to some extremely wealthy people who have been doing far worse to the environment for decades. We don’t tend to like people getting angry about the latter though.

[RicardoMontalban]

They’d have no hands to play on their station, put it that way

You’d chop their hands off? A tad OTT maybe?

[Goalkeeper]

I see vandalism as someone throwing a brick through a window, scratching a car as they walk past, or generally being a destructive knob.
These guys planned this carefully, did recces, filmed their actions and afterwards revelled in what they had done. They knew the tree had national if not international interest, and for some unfathomable reason wanted to destroy it.
It's more than wanton vandalism, but not a ten year jail time sort of crime.
My question is really simple; why?

[IanMcL]

This case epitomises so much about modern society. Two bell ends who think that mindless destruction is a hilarious route to online infamy now face having their lives ruined at huge expense to the tax payer and will no doubt come out of that experience as even less productive members of society than they are now.

They deserve a significant proverbial kicking (let's be honest, chopping down a very specific tree in the middle of nowhere is hardly a spur of the moment bad decision, it's the kind of scummy vandalism that blights most parts of this country) but surely there is a better way of dealing with this than a prison sentence. Some sort of community service based punishment like spending a year's worth of Saturday evenings planting trees while listening to Coldplay on repeat would be more appropriate.

Whatever the worst punishment is, that helps the community considerably, let it be forever.

[Big Vinny K]

You’d chop their hands off? A tad OTT maybe?

It’s ok he put a winky emoji on…..like they do in Saudi Arabia when they are having a good laugh in the hand chopping cells.

[Leisure]

while listening to Coldplay on repeat would be more appropriate.

If it was me I'd go for the prison sentence!

[Inchy]

These two idiots shouldn’t be locked up. They are not a danger to anyone. They chopped down a tree. It was very scummy, but they didn’t harm anyone. I’ve ran past that tree on the pennine way many times. It was majestic. I’m as ****** off as the rest of us. But locking them up will just cost a fortune.


Stick them on community service, ideally looking after a national park. Make them realise beauty. Educate them.

1000 hours looking after a national park might make them appreciate it

[boatshed bill]

These two idiots shouldn’t be locked up. They are not a danger to anyone. They chopped down a tree. It was very scummy, but they didn’t harm anyone. I’ve ran past that tree on the pennine way many times. It was majestic. I’m as ****** off as the rest of us. But locking them up will just cost a fortune.


Stick them on community service, ideally looking after a national park. Make them realise beauty. Educate them.

1000 hours looking after a national park might make them appreciate it

Yes, this sort of punishment is far better. (and 1,000hrs of Coldplay )
Prison? They go in as idiots , but what would be the effects of a stretch in clink?

[Inchy]

Yes, this sort of punishment is far better. (and 1,000hrs of Coldplay )
Prison? They go in as idiots , but what would be the effects of a stretch in clink?

I’d rather face the firing squad than Coldplay

[AmbleClaret]

Get some perspective people.

It's a ******* tree...

And Turf Moor is just a football ground, so you'd be happy for someone to torch it?

[fidelcastro]

And Turf Moor is just a football ground, so you'd be happy for someone to torch it?

I suppose that's one way of forcing the ground redevelopment!

[nil_desperandum]

We need a huge review of sentencing.
I am still angry about this incident, but what's the point of giving them a long custodial sentence (at our expense)?
As others have suggested, much better to make them work under supervision for the forestry commission every weekend for a long period, (without pay and paying their own travel expenses)
How long? Well, perhaps look at the appropriate jail sentence, and work out how many days they would serve, and then calculate how many weekends that equates too. They would not be doing anything at weekends other than tree preservation for many years.

[Greenmile]

These “two-minute hate” threads are always fun.

[ecc]

"Educate them."

That might take ten years.

[NewClaret]

You’d chop their hands off? A tad OTT maybe?

Well they wouldn’t do it again…

Although that’s what they do in some countries that unsurprisingly have much lower crime rates than the UK.

[Spijed]

Well they wouldn’t do it again…

Although that’s what they do in some countries that unsurprisingly have much lower crime rates than the UK.

Or just pardon them, no matter how violent their crimes

[RicardoMontalban]

Well they wouldn’t do it again…

Although that’s what they do in some countries that unsurprisingly have much lower crime rates than the UK.

There’s that winky face again that BVK alluded to...

[boyyanno]

I think some people see the word tree and think it's a nothing crime.

Two guys planned and drove many miles to commit hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of criminal damage just so that they could laugh at the misery it caused.

How many posters on here (if they had an asset that was valued equally) would think it was a joke and that they didn't deserve jail time?

[GetIntoEm]

Melting over a tree that most never even heard of, or bothered to visit before this case.

The scruffs in Burnley town centre do worse on a daily basis

[boyyanno]

Melting over a tree that most never even heard of, or bothered to visit before this case.

The scruffs in Burnley town centre do worse on a daily basis

So let's say you've got a 650k asset and someone destroys it just to laugh at your misery, do you let them off because the scruffs in Burnley do worse?

Can you also show me where I can view an article confirming the recent 650k worth of bins that get damaged every day as well? That would be grand.

[Colburn_Claret]

Melting over a tree that most never even heard of, or bothered to visit before this case.

The scruffs in Burnley town centre do worse on a daily basis

Very few people won't have heard of the Sycamore gap or tree. It's iconic and made famous in many films and tv programmes including Robin Hood Prince of Thieves.
To say it's just a tree is like comparing your picture of 4 dogs playing pool to the Mona Lisa. If you don't understand that, all you are exposing is your ignorance.

[GetIntoEm]

When people were pushing historical statues into rivers people were cheering. Don't remember any prison sentences for that

[nil_desperandum]

When people were pushing historical statues into rivers people were cheering. Don't remember any prison sentences for that

If you are referring to the Colston statue pushed into Bristol Harbour, it went to Crown Court and a jury acquitted the perpetrators. You may disagree with this verdict, but it's why they didn't get any sentence.
These 2 have been found guilty. Again you may disagree with the verdict, but it's how our judicial system works.

[LDNBFC87]

I reckon these lads are angels compared to some extremely wealthy people who have been doing far worse to the environment for decades. We don’t tend to like people getting angry about the latter though.

I wish the country got equally angry about more important things such as the tearing down of SureStart and our NHS.

[Colburn_Claret]

I wish the country got equally angry about more important things such as the tearing down of SureStart and our NHS.

Many people do, but they aren't comparable.
Tearing down our institutions is a political act, that can be rectified by replacing the incumbent government for a more enlightened one. The felling of the Sycamore tree was apathetic act of wanton violence, to serve no other purpose than to 'have a laugh'. It can't be repaired for at least 60 years. a whole generation deprived of its beauty.
Those who understand don't need an explanation, those who don't will never get it. Their lives are the shallower for it.

[NewClaret]

There’s that winky face again that BVK alluded to...

[Dressinggown]

Many people do, but they aren't comparable.
Tearing down our institutions is a political act, that can be rectified by replacing the incumbent government for a more enlightened one. The felling of the Sycamore tree was apathetic act of wanton violence, to serve no other purpose than to 'have a laugh'. It can't be repaired for at least 60 years. a whole generation deprived of its beauty.
Those who understand don't need an explanation, those who don't will never get it. Their lives are the shallower for it.

I get it but see lives being destroyed on my doorstep. Being 'shallow' is not a consideration.

[ŽižkovClaret]

My prediction is 8 years each total.

[KRBFC]

I give up, people who think it’s just a tree have no morals in this world

Trees have feelings too

[fidelcastro]

Isn't it weird how some people are only angry when it's statues of racists that are pulled down or damaged?

[Colburn_Claret]

Isn't it weird how some people are only angry when it's statues of racists that are pulled down or damaged?

He was a philanthropist and a man of his time. Of course what happened in slavery is deplorable, and undefendable, but if he was alive today, he would probably be as abhorred by slavery as we are, but still a philanthropist.
If Mozart or Beethoven were alive today, they wouldn't be writing Eine Kleine Nacht Musik. They be playing electric guitars. Just as if many of todays entrepreneurs were born in the 1700's, they'd probably be involved with the slave trade.
I find it really strange and sad that we judge people from latter years by todays standards. Far better to just use history as a lesson for the future.

[fidelcastro]

He was a philanthropist and a man of his time. Of course what happened in slavery is deplorable, and undefendable, but if he was alive today, he would probably be as abhorred by slavery as we are, but still a philanthropist.
If Mozart or Beethoven were alive today, they wouldn't be writing Eine Kleine Nacht Musik. They be playing electric guitars. Just as if many of todays entrepreneurs were born in the 1700's, they'd probably be involved with the slave trade.
I find it really strange and sad that we judge people from latter years by todays standards. Far better to just use history as a lesson for the future.

If we're a progressive country, then statues of the likes of him need pulling down.

Well done the jury in both cases!!

[Colburn_Claret]

If we're a progressive country, then statues of the likes of him need pulling down.

Well done the jury in both cases!!

In your opinion.

[kentonclaret]

Having read through the posts a lot of people seem to be at loggerheads over the sentencing

[lakedistrictclaret]

Four years and three months apiece.

[CyrilEbokiPoh]

Wow. Obviously a shocking act. But they are really heavy sentences. People literally get less for taking a life or other serious violent crimes.

[burnley007]

Wow. Obviously a shocking act. But they are really heavy sentences. People literally get less for taking a life or other serious violent crimes.

I've known people get 3 years or even less for manslaughter, that is heavy.

Bet it's quietly reduced on appeal.

[Casper2]

I've known people get 3 years or even less for manslaughter, that is heavy.

Bet it's quietly reduced on appeal.

Quietly reduced, what does that mean ?

[agreenwood]

Wow. Obviously a shocking act. But they are really heavy sentences. People literally get less for taking a life or other serious violent crimes.

In my line of work I’ve certainly seen individuals convicted of GBH and Sexual Assault receive shorter stints.

That said, they’ll only serve 40% of it under the rules brought in last year.

[Clovius Boofus]

I reckoned on 5 years. Anyway, they were always going to get a sentence that would discourage other like-minded dickheads.

If they had been given a none-custodial sentence, we'd quickly have other mindless idiots cutting down iconic trees and posting videos on social media in order to revel in their notoriety.

[dougcollins]

I've no idea what defence was used, but we - by law - must remove and destroy alien species, for example:

Grey Squirrels
Signal Crayfish
Japanese Knotweed

The Sycamore is an alien species.

[CyrilEbokiPoh]

I've no idea what defence was used, but we - by law - must remove and destroy alien species, for example:

Grey Squirrels
Signal Crayfish
Japanese Knotweed

The Sycamore is an alien species.

I remember when I first heard about Japanese knotweed. Evil Stuff!

[CyrilEbokiPoh]

I reckoned on 5 years. Anyway, they were always going to get a sentence that would discourage other like-minded dickheads.

If they had been given a none-custodial sentence, we'd quickly have other mindless idiots cutting down iconic trees and posting videos on social media in order to revel in their notoriety.

You raise a valid point. And I kind of agree. And perhaps it's the soft nature of other crimes punishment that is the problem. But over 4 years seems very excessive!

[bumba]

I reckoned on 5 years. Anyway, they were always going to get a sentence that would discourage other like-minded dickheads.

If they had been given a none-custodial sentence, we'd quickly have other mindless idiots cutting down iconic trees and posting videos on social media in order to revel in their notoriety.

Why didn't Huw Edwards get a prison sentence then to discourage more mindless peadophiles??

[GetIntoEm]

It's a crazy sentence. Paedos get less, sometimes suspended sentences. Those Manchester airport subhumans will get a similar sentence to this. Doesn't make sense.

They deserve punishing as they were guilty, but to me this seems disproportionate

[RicardoMontalban]

I think there’s a couple of things going on with the sentence that probably puts it at the higher end of the tariff.

Firstly the offence, it’s not just criminal damage. It’s criminal damage to a prominent landmark that was chosen precisely for this reason. And then there’s the additional damage to UNESCO site of Hadrian’s Wall.

Then there’s the contrition and admission of guilt, or lack of. Following the trial there doesn’t seem to be have any moment at which they’ve held their hands up, admitted they did it etc. Despite evidence that has put them fairly bang to rights, they’ve denied it, tried to throw the other under the bus, and generally avoid any responsibility or explanation for the offence. That too is taken into account.

As mentioned above they’ll serve less than half inside anyway, the rest in license, and I think one of them has spent time on remand which will probably count as time served. I’m generally of the view the prison system is falling over and needs a massive rethink, but you can absolutely see how they’ve ended up with the sentences they got.