Taiwo Awoniyi.

[beddie]

Copied from this mornings news. Hopefully the young man makes a full recovery. Does this not highlight the reason why the Linesman should now be instructed to go back to flagging immediately a player is offside.

Nottingham Forest striker Taiwo Awoniyi is in an induced coma after having the first phase of surgery on a serious abdominal injury.
The Nigeria international, 27, collided with the post in the 88th minute of the 2-2 draw against Leicester at the City Ground on Sunday as he attempted to get on the end of a cross from Anthony Elanga.
He had surgery on Monday night and remains in hospital, with the rest of the procedure set to be completed on Wednesday.
In a statement on Tuesday Forest said Awoniyi was "recovering well" following the operation.
Awoniyi, a late substitute for Ibrahim Sangare on Sunday, received lengthy treatment on the pitch.
Elanga was in an offside position when he collected the ball but the assistant referee did not raise their flag until after Awoniyi's collision.
When an immediate goalscoring opportunity is likely to occur, assistant referees are told to keep their flag down until the passage of play is complete.
If a goal is scored, the incident can then be reviewed by the video assistant referee (VAR).
Although this allows goals to be scored, critics say the protocol needlessly endangers players.
Forest owner Evangelos Marinakis took to the field after the game to express his concern to manager Nuno Espirito Santo over how Awoniyi's injury was handled.
Marinakis is being kept updated on the forward's condition.
On Tuesday Forest said Awoniyi's injury was "a powerful reminder of the physical risks in the game and why a player's health and wellbeing must always come first".

[Tricky Trevor]

No. These injuries after no flag are so rare leave it be.
The game stopping for a fake flag is frustrating beyond belief, especially if a goal or potential goal is negated.
I still don’t see why they can’t flag the obvious offsides though and more and more I see linos yards out of position and guessing. They should be level with the last defender. Even then they need an eye on the pass and an I on the offside. So difficult.
I’d scrap it altogether and open the field up.

[martin_p]

Let’s hope he makes a full and speedy recovery.

This was bound to happen at some point because referee’s assistants really don’t get to make decisions since the introduction of VAR. It was a very obvious offside in this case, but no, don’t make a decision, leave that to the people with the TV screens.

Officiating is seriously broken at the moment and VAR is without doubt the cause. I don’t believe there’s a single football player, manager or supporter who wanted VAR to work how it does. The argument was that if you have tv cameras at grounds and the officials miss something or make an obvious error then why not tell them. This has somehow been implemented as looking for fouls, looking to send players off, toe nails being in front of a defender being an obvious advantage to the attacker and this week a player being offside when stood in their own half and it’s ruining the game. We’ve had some poor decisions go against us this season, but we’ve also been the beneficiary of some decisions that you know would be different had VAR been involved. But I doubt any of us would think the season would have been more enjoyable with VAR involved.

[JohnMac]

The man with the flag was supernumerary to the game long before VAR was introduced.

Referee's wanted all the power hence why the 'Assistant' was reduced to the odd flag flutter.

[JohnDearyMe]

Copied from this mornings news. Hopefully the young man makes a full recovery. Does this not highlight the reason why the Linesman should now be instructed to go back to flagging immediately a player is offside.

That was my first thought upon watching Match of The Day. The Forest player looked well offside when they broke forward

[quoonbeatz]

You want var, this is how it has to be. Just bin var.

[bobinho]

For anyone to give changing this stupidity any consideration, it was always going to be after a serious injury to someone.

My fear is that the player won’t be high profile enough to force the required change.

Had it been Salah or Haaland, there’s every chance there would be a conversation as the PL would see that its product has been tainted.

[dsr]

If they want linemen to be able to give offside, they need to go back to the old rule where "level" meant onside as judged by the human eye. This would mean the linesman can give his decision and, if it's wrong, it's a shame but there it is. The added advantage would be that VAR offsides could be judged in 5 seconds simply by looking at a still frame - if the linesman is not clearly wrong, then he's right. (It would also mean that offside went back to being judged merely on the torso, not the toes or shoulders.)

[martin_p]

If they want linemen to be able to give offside, they need to go back to the old rule where "level" meant onside as judged by the human eye. This would mean the linesman can give his decision and, if it's wrong, it's a shame but there it is. The added advantage would be that VAR offsides could be judged in 5 seconds simply by looking at a still frame - if the linesman is not clearly wrong, then he's right. (It would also mean that offside went back to being judged merely on the torso, not the toes or shoulders.)

Offside needs to be based on feet and feet alone. Any video checks should be limited to ten seconds and there should be no lines drawn. If you can’t tell that a mistake has been made based on that then the decision stands as it can’t be an obvious error.

[martin_p]

*duplicate deleted*

[Duffer_]

Really sorry to hear about Awoniyi's injury. I'm not sure what this has to do with VAR. Such accidents and injuries happen in the course of playing football. The only way to stop them is to not play football. The real issue is that Awoniyi may have been pressured into continuing to play when he was in no fit state to do so.

[martin_p]

Really sorry to hear about Awoniyi's injury. I'm not sure what this has to do with VAR. Such accidents and injuries happen in the course of playing football. The only way to stop them is to not play football. The real issue is that Awoniyi may have been pressured into continuing to play when he was in no fit state to do so.

While that is true this was an avoidable injury. Without VAR the assistant ref flags for an obvious offside and the game stops.

[dsr]

Offside needs to be based on feet and feet alone. Any video checks should be limited to ten seconds and there should be no lines drawn. If you can’t tell that a mistake has been made based on that then the decision stands as it can’t be an obvious error.

I's impossible to judge by feet. Feet move far faster and more irregularly than the rest of the body, so neither by eye nor by technology can they make a reasonable estimate of whose foot is offside.

Imagine the 100m sprint race. You can tell who wins because they look at the torso. Try judging who wins by the position of the foot - it ain't easy.

[Duffer_]

While that is true this was an avoidable injury. Without VAR the assistant ref flags for an obvious offside and the game stops.

And what prevents the free kick from being taken and the same incident happening in the Forest goalmouth? It was an accident that happens in the course of playing football.

If there was no VAR and the lino doesn't give the offside and the accident happens, the same people berating VAR (I don't like it btw) are saying automated VAR offsides should have been used to halt play before it happens.

[martin_p]

And what prevents the free kick from being taken and the same incident happening in the Forest goalmouth? It was an accident that happens in the course of playing football.

If there was no VAR and the lino doesn't give the offside and the accident happens, the same people berating VAR (I don't like it btw) are saying automated VAR offsides should have been used to halt play before it happens.

In this incident it’s not about ‘what ifs’ it the actuality of the matter, I.e. had the linesman flagged the obvious offside then this injury wouldn’t have happened. We all recognise that accidents happen, but this one could have been prevented.

[Duffer_]

In this incident it’s not about ‘what ifs’ it the actuality of the matter, I.e. had the linesman flagged the obvious offside then this injury wouldn’t have happened. We all recognise that accidents happen, but this one could have been prevented.

There was nothing more inherently dangerous about the passage of play leading to the accident than any other. It's not about invoking hindsight to prevent accidents from happening.

[chekhov]

And what prevents the free kick from being taken and the same incident happening in the Forest goalmouth? It was an accident that happens in the course of playing football.

If there was no VAR and the lino doesn't give the offside and the accident happens, the same people berating VAR (I don't like it btw) are saying automated VAR offsides should have been used to halt play before it happens.

Exactly this. With or without var accidents happen in football.

[dsr]

In this incident it’s not about ‘what ifs’ it the actuality of the matter, I.e. had the linesman flagged the obvious offside then this injury wouldn’t have happened. We all recognise that accidents happen, but this one could have been prevented.

Linesmen can't judge offside - the VAR offside law makes it impossible. They could alter the law to make it the same as in the Championship and let the linesman make his own mind up, but it wouldn't necessarily lead to fewer goalmouth incidents. Or they could change the law so that level is again offside, that would have the desired effect of reducing goalmouth incidents. But unless you ban approaching the penalty area completely, goalmouth incidents will still happen.

[martin_p]

Linesmen can't judge offside - the VAR offside law makes it impossible. They could alter the law to make it the same as in the Championship and let the linesman make his own mind up, but it wouldn't necessarily lead to fewer goalmouth incidents. Or they could change the law so that level is again offside, that would have the desired effect of reducing goalmouth incidents. But unless you ban approaching the penalty area completely, goalmouth incidents will still happen.

They can judge offside where it’s as clear as that one.

[martin_p]

They can judge offside where it’s as clear as that one.

IMG_0393.jpeg (12.28 KiB) Viewed 2939 times

[dsr]

They can judge offside where it’s as clear as that one.

They should be able to. If they must have the silly VAR definition of offside, there has to be a point at which the linesman who believes it to be offside, doesn't flag. All you can change is the degree of certainty. It would be a nonsense to tell the linesman to flag for a 50-50 decision.

Looking at the players in that picture, they're probably moving in opposite directions. Were they? If so, and you need to remember the linesman not only doesn't have a still photo, he also doesn't know the exact frame that VAR will use - then it's not an easy decision. Remember that two players moving in opposite directions will separate by a yard in the time between one frame from an ordinary camera and the next.

[martin_p]

They should be able to. If they must have the silly VAR definition of offside, there has to be a point at which the linesman who believes it to be offside, doesn't flag. All you can change is the degree of certainty. It would be a nonsense to tell the linesman to flag for a 50-50 decision.

But they’ve been told not to for anything until after the attacking play has broken down. If it’s 50/50 then fine, wait, but if it’s screamingly obvious to everyone in the ground then get the flag up and don’t waste everyone’s time.

[dsr]

But they’ve been told not to for anything until after the attacking play has broken down. If it’s 50/50 then fine, wait, but if it’s screamingly obvious to everyone in the ground then get the flag up and don’t waste everyone’s time.

See my edit. A player at speed of a 10-second 100 yard dash will cover 3.6 inches in a hundredth of a second, or 14.4 inches in 1/25 of a second (the standard TV frame). The man going the other way could do the same. So a picture that looks blindingly obvious offside would have been onside a tenth of a second earlier - is it quite so obvious now?

[martin_p]

See my edit. A player at speed of a 10-second 100 yard dash will cover 3.6 inches in a hundredth of a second, or 14.4 inches in 1/25 of a second (the standard TV frame). The man going the other way could do the same. So a picture that looks blindingly obvious offside would have been onside a tenth of a second earlier - is it quite so obvious now?

I saw it on tv in real time, it was blindingly obvious.

[theboydonegood]

Chuck VAR. Go back to the normal/old football rules rather than VAR impacted ones. We can all celebrate the goals and put up with the odd mistake. That injury doesnt happen and i can enjoy top flight football more. Give us our game back. Thx.

[Ashingtonclaret46]

I saw it on tv in real time, it was blindingly obvious.

Stevie Wonder could have given that offside and he's 75 now. I feel sympathy for Sian Massey-Ellis because she knows that she would hav flagged in any game outside of the top level and the free kick would have taken place 5 yards inside the opposition half. Awoniyi has run a further 45+ yards and ended up wrapped around the goalpost with life threatening injuries.
VAR is totally to blame because outside of the top level the offside would have been flagged a number of seconds before the accident.

[NottsClaret]

It's just another way the game has been made worse by VAR. Really not looking forward to having that again next season.

Although I'm not convinced by the argument it needlessly causes injury. If they'd blown for the free kick straight away, an injury could still occur elsewhere. At the end of the match, you're still playing for the same amount of time, even if in this case it was pointless. It's a daft rule, but it doesn't heighten or lessen the chance of someone getting hurt.

[dougcollins]

It's just another way the game has been made worse by VAR. Really not looking forward to having that again next season.

Although I'm not convinced by the argument it needlessly causes injury. If they'd blown for the free kick straight away, an injury could still occur elsewhere. At the end of the match, you're still playing for the same amount of time, even if in this case it was pointless. It's a daft rule, but it doesn't heighten or lessen the chance of someone getting hurt.

It's a rule that stops linesmen making decisions.

You can see that when they step down into the EFL, they're actually worse than the regular EFL linos.

[pureclaret]

Its not VAR or the rule of the game that caused the incident it was the fact a player was offside by a distance and the lino followed the ''instruction'' to only flag if sure that the player is offside and that a goal is not likely to follow.

For me its dangerous not to flag and then put footballers in a position where they may make a challenge that they would not need to make and risk injury and red cards

[Bosscat]

Its not VAR or the rule of the game that caused the incident it was the fact a player was offside by a distance and the lino followed the ''instruction'' to only flag if sure that the player is offside and that a goal is not likely to follow.

For me its dangerous not to flag and then put footballers in a position where they may make a challenge that they would not need to make and risk injury and red cards

Exactly this ... we have seen it this season in the EFL where VAR isn't involved ... OK if its tight then fair enough but obvious off sides have not been flagged straight away .... its a ridiculous part of the game today that needs sorting ...

[Rileybobs]

You can see from the still image why the AR may have difficulty in judging Awoniyi offside with absolute certainty. The player passing the ball is virtually at 90 degrees from where she is also expecting to be looking across the line, then you have the speed of play and players travelling in opposite directions as pointed out by dsr. If she was certain Awoniyi was offside then she would have flagged. She was probably 90%+ sure, and without VAR would of course have flagged - but if we persist with VAR, which most of us agree is crap for the game, then it’s sensible that these moves are allowed to play out.

Otherwise I agree with Duffer that this injury wasn’t caused by VAR and could just as easily have happened at any other time of the match. An injury could also occur when an AR incorrectly flags for an offside.

[martin_p]

You can see from the still image why the AR may have difficulty in judging Awoniyi offside with absolute certainty. The player passing the ball is virtually at 90 degrees from where she is also expecting to be looking across the line, then you have the speed of play and players travelling in opposite directions as pointed out by dsr. If she was certain Awoniyi was offside then she would have flagged. She was probably 90%+ sure, and without VAR would of course have flagged - but if we persist with VAR, which most of us agree is crap for the game, then it’s sensible that these moves are allowed to play out.

Otherwise I agree with Duffer that this injury wasn’t caused by VAR and could just as easily have happened at any other time of the match. An injury could also occur when an AR incorrectly flags for an offside.

They’ve been told not to flag until there’s no chance of a goal whether they’re 100% sure or not. So she may have been 100% sure.

[Rileybobs]

They’ve been told not to flag until there’s no chance of a goal whether they’re 100% sure or not. So she may have been 100% sure.

I’m not suggesting you’re wrong, but I have seen assistant referees flag for obvious offsides which prevented a goalscoring opportunity playing out in the PL this season.

[beddie]

Good news for the young man this morning, he’s now out of a coma after surgery. Interesting comments this morning from Fara Williams, I too hope the law gets reviewed.

“Former England women's midfielder Fara Williams has called on the law to be reviewed.
"When it is marginal, then I get it. When an offside is so clear and obvious, I think it is the duty of the assistant referee to put their flag up and stop play," Williams told BBC Sport.
"In this scenario it happened on the halfway line. This has been a time bomb waiting to go off in terms of someone getting seriously injured. Awoniyi got that horrific injury because of it.
"I am totally against it and I feel most players are as well. It is a rule that nobody likes and I am sure it will be assessed in the summer."

[Rileybobs]

Good news for the young man this morning, he’s now out of a coma after surgery. Interesting comments this morning from Fara Williams, I too hope the law gets reviewed.

“Former England women's midfielder Fara Williams has called on the law to be reviewed.
"When it is marginal, then I get it. When an offside is so clear and obvious, I think it is the duty of the assistant referee to put their flag up and stop play," Williams told BBC Sport.
"In this scenario it happened on the halfway line. This has been a time bomb waiting to go off in terms of someone getting seriously injured. Awoniyi got that horrific injury because of it.
"I am totally against it and I feel most players are as well. It is a rule that nobody likes and I am sure it will be assessed in the summer."

Fara Williams is wrong though, Awoniyi didn’t get his injury because of the assistant referee’s offside protocols. He would also have picked up the same injury had Sian Massey incorrectly thought Awoniyi was offside, he also would have picked up the same injury if the defender was playing him onside.

[Rileybobs]

Just to add, if assistant referees are told to flag and referees stop play then the only purpose of VAR with regards to offsides is to disallow goals that were incorrectly given, and not to allow goals which have been incorrectly disallowed.

[pureclaret]

Fara Williams is wrong though, Awoniyi didn’t get his injury because of the assistant referee’s offside protocols. He would also have picked up the same injury had Sian Massey incorrectly thought Awoniyi was offside, he also would have picked up the same injury if the defender was playing him onside.

Not quite sure what you mean, It was Elanga who was offside (and she flagged for it after the incident) so she new he was offside, so if she had flagged at the start off the offside move ref would have whistled long before he crossed it into the box so Awoniyi would have stopped running long before collision with post.

So yes he was injured because of this not happening, so in my opinion the protocol was a big contributing factor. ( and before any one says yes he could have stopped to quick from the refs whistle and fallen over, and thats football)

[Rileybobs]

Not quite sure what you mean, It was Elanga who was offside and she flagged for it so she new he was offside, so if she had flagged at the start off the offside move ref would have whistled long before he crossed it into the box so Awoniyi would have stopped running long before collision with post.

So yes he was injured because of this not happening, so in my opinion the protocol was a big contributing factor. ( and before any one says yes he could have stopped to quick from the refs whistle and fallen over, and thats football)

My mistake re Elanga.

My point is he wasn’t injured because of assistant referee’s offside protocols, he was injured because he collided with a post.

[dsr]

Not quite sure what you mean, It was Elanga who was offside (and she flagged for it after the incident) so she new he was offside, so if she had flagged at the start off the offside move ref would have whistled long before he crossed it into the box so Awoniyi would have stopped running long before collision with post.

So yes he was injured because of this not happening, so in my opinion the protocol was a big contributing factor. ( and before any one says yes he could have stopped to quick from the refs whistle and fallen over, and thats football)

Linesmen don't always know for certain whether a player is offside. Two years ago Jay Rodriguez was flagged offside after scoring an equaliser and a team of three people took fiver and a half minutes to establish that the linesman was right. The linesman couldn't know he was right - he could only give his best opinion. If the linesman always knew the correct decision, then VAR wouldn't be used.

[ŽižkovClaret]

My mistake re Elanga.

My point is he wasn’t injured because of assistant referee’s offside protocols, he was injured because he collided with a post.

Would he have been in the proximity of said post had the ref blown up earlier for offside?

[pureclaret]

Would he have been in the proximity of said post had the ref blown up earlier for offside?

No he would not

[Rileybobs]

Would he have been in the proximity of said post had the ref blown up earlier for offside?

No. Just like he wouldn’t have been in the proximity of said post had the assistant referee thought Elanga was onside, or if Awoniyi wasn’t a professional footballer.

[pureclaret]

Linesmen don't always know for certain whether a player is offside. Two years ago Jay Rodriguez was flagged offside after scoring an equaliser and a team of three people took fiver and a half minutes to establish that the linesman was right. The linesman couldn't know he was right - he could only give his best opinion. If the linesman always knew the correct decision, then VAR wouldn't be used.

but Elanga was offside by some distance and she flagged as soon as the ball went dead , you can see her say to the Goalkeeper that she new he was offside but followed protocol

[Rileybobs]

It’s basically like saying we should stop playing added time because someone gets injured during added time.

[pureclaret]

My mistake re Elanga.

My point is he wasn’t injured because of assistant referee’s offside protocols, he was injured because he collided with a post.

But had the lino flagged what she knew to be true then he would not at that time have done so , so its the protocol that caused the incident the post had nothing to do with it as it made no movement what so ever and the player would have stopped well short of it

[ŽižkovClaret]

It’s basically like saying we should stop playing added time because someone gets injured during added time.

I mean, it isnt is it?

I must admit Czech officials, certainly in the 2nd and lower tiers, do tend to blow up near as damned it on the 90th minute if the score is a sufficiently wide margin. Probably not going to cause any complaints from a player on a team 3-0 down.

[Rileybobs]

I mean, it isnt is it?

I must admit Czech officials, certainly in the 2nd and lower tiers, do tend to blow up near as damned it on the 90th minute if the score is a sufficiently wide margin. Probably not going to cause any complaints from a player on a team 3-0 down.

It is. The offside protocol doesn’t place any more risk to player safety than playing additional time for stoppages.

[Rileybobs]

But had the lino flagged what she knew to be true then he would not at that time have done so , so its the protocol that caused the incident the post had nothing to do with it as it made no movement what so ever and the player would have stopped well short of it

But AR’s don’t know for sure as pointed out above, so they are told to let play continue to avoid a situation where perfectly good goals are ruled out. I’m surprised to see so many people against this considering the noise we have about VAR looking to rule out goals. Because if lino’s flag then VAR’s only purpose re offsides will be to correct incorrect decisions by chalking off goals, and not to correct incorrect decisions by allowing goals. Do we really want that?

[martin_p]

It is. The offside protocol doesn’t place any more risk to player safety than playing additional time for stoppages.

If you get injured busting a gut going for a goal that would have counted then that’s just football. If you get injured trying to score a goal that was never going to count and the official already knew it and could have stopped play then you have a right to ask questions.

[Rileybobs]

If you get injured busting a gut going for a goal that would have counted then that’s just football. If you get injured trying to score a goal that was never going to count and the official already knew it and could have stopped play then you have a right to ask questions.

Of course you have the right to ask questions. Just as a player who is played through 1v1 only for the assistant to flag incorrectly and prevent a goalscoring chance would have the right to ask questions.

We don’t know how certain the assistant was that it was offside. I agree that if an assistant is absolutely certain there is an offside then they should be able to flag, and to be honest I think they do as I’ve seen it. If there is any doubt then we have two options;

1.) AR’s keep their flags down until the goalscoring opportunity has passed, which will lead to normal football related side-effects such as injuries
2.) AR’s flag if they think it was offside, which will lead to some goals correctly disallowed and some goals incorrectly disallowed

I’m surprised there is such a desire for option 2 if I’m honest.