Play off final Saturday 24th

[houseboy]

Sunderland had to play 48 games to get to the play-off final, same as Sheffield United.

But they finished 4th 14 points behind.

[Sheedyclaret]

We seem to find it easier playing against Sheff Utd than Sunderland at the minute so I want them up.

Won’t make a difference we are coming straight back down anyway us Leeds and Sunderland

[fidelcastro]

Won’t make a difference we are coming straight back down anyway us Leeds and Sunderland

That's the spirit!

[martin_p]

But they finished 4th 14 points behind.

They finished in a position the qualify for the play-offs, same as Sheffield United.

[kentonclaret]

But they finished 4th 14 points behind.

In the National League York City finished 23 points ahead of Oldham and 28 points ahead of Southend, yet it is Oldham and Southend that will be playing at Wembley for the chance to get into League Two.
It is about time that the top 2 in the National League gained automatic promotion as there is little difference in the standard to League Two as proven by Stockport and Wrexham. Chesterfield got promoted last season and made the League 2 playoffs at their first attempt.

[houseboy]

They do deserve to be there on the basis that they have just won the playoffs. That’s the way things are decided you might not like it or agree with it but all the teams that compete do so with the knowledge & understanding that failure to go up automatically might mean going up by the playoff route. It gives the less favoured teams the belief that it’s possible in a 1 off game.

But do you think it’s right?

[houseboy]

They finished in a position the qualify for the play-offs, same as Sheffield United.

Sorry bud. We have to agree to differ. Sunderland should not be a PL side next season in my view.

[houseboy]

In the National League York City finished 23 points ahead of Oldham and 28 points ahead of Southend, yet it is Oldham and Southend that will be playing at Wembley for the chance to get into League Two.
It is about time that the top 2 in the National League gained automatic promotion as there is little difference in the standard to League Two as proven by Stockport and Wrexham. Chesterfield got promoted last season and made the League 2 playoffs at their first attempt.

Agreed. The top two in the National league and the top three in the others. Scrap the play off farce - invented just for money.

[Big Vinny K]

Sorry bud. We have to agree to differ. Sunderland should not be a PL side next season in my view.

There’s a pretty good chance we would not be one either if it were not for the play off system in which we finished 6th when we first got promoted to the PL.

I do agree though that it could be tweaked to give the team finishing 3rd a bit more advantage. Only one going up automatically from National League is also wrong. Should be at least 2 and possibly 3 teams. The national league promoted teams have been very strong in recent years and the strength of that division warrants more teams getting promoted.

[houseboy]

Incidentally for those who think the play offs make it more exciting over the season please think on this: Sunderland have had virtually nothing to play for since about November. I even read a comment from a Sunderland fan a week or two ago who said since November it’s just been like playing friendlies.

[daveisaclaret]

I agree with houseboy. The 2008/09 season would have been loads more exciting if we never had a chance of promotion and we'd never played in the Premier League.

[Jakubclaret]

But do you think it’s right?

I do yes. because that's what all the teams have agreed to before the ref blows the whistle on the very first opening game.

[JohnMcGreal]

There’s a pretty good chance we would not be one either if it were not for the play off system in which we finished 6th when we first got promoted to the PL.

Pretty sure we finished 5th in 08/09 and Preston snuck into the play-offs in 6th place.

I really thought that United would do it this time. Must be absolutely gutting for them having been one of the best teams in the league (along with Leeds and us) for most of the season.

[Big Vinny K]

Pretty sure we finished 5th in 08/09 and Preston snuck into the play-offs in 6th place.

I really thought that United would do it this time. Must be absolutely gutting for them having been one of the best teams in the league (along with Leeds and us) for most of the season.

Yes we did sorry you are correct. Don’t know why but in my head I always think we finished 6th that season !!

Yes it’s tough on Sheffield United for sure after such a strong season. I’m not a fan of Wilder but I do have sympathy for their fans and they must be devastated today.

As I said I think you could change the play off system to give more of an advantage to those who finish 3rd. I know that would not guarantee anything but I wouldn’t scrap the play offs altogether. They are not only exciting in themselves but they also help keep the season interesting. Without the play offs this season our division would have been done and dusted in terms of promotion in January !!

[quoonbeatz]

Incidentally for those who think the play offs make it more exciting over the season please think on this: Sunderland have had virtually nothing to play for since about November. I even read a comment from a Sunderland fan a week or two ago who said since November it’s just been like playing friendlies.

They were 3 points off automatic promotion at the end of January so it’s a bit weird they gave up on it in November.

[wilks_bfc]

Yes we did sorry you are correct. Don’t know why but in my head I always think we finished 6th that season !!

Yes it’s tough on Sheffield United for sure after such a strong season. I’m not a fan of Wilder but I do have sympathy for their fans and they must be devastated today.

As I said I think you could change the play off system to give more of an advantage to those who finish 3rd. I know that would not guarantee anything but I wouldn’t scrap the play offs altogether. They are not only exciting in themselves but they also help keep the season interesting. Without the play offs this season our division would have been done and dusted in terms of promotion in January !!

Maybe a merger of our 2 playoff successes
We finished 6th in the 93/94 2nd Division, with 73pts

Top 6 that season was;

1st Reading 89
2nd Port Vale 88
3rd Plymouth 85
4th Stockport 85
5th York 75
6th Burnley 73

[nil_desperandum]

They were 3 points off automatic promotion at the end of January so it’s a bit weird they gave up on it in November.

Absolutely, but go back just a fortnight to January 17th. Had they scored either of those penalties then they would have been joint top with 53 points, leapfrogging us who would have been on 52.
It would have been:
Leeds 53
Sun. 53
Burnley 52
Blades 52.
Just shows how brilliant both us and Leeds were form that point on.

[Wokingclaret]

Sorry bud. We have to agree to differ. Sunderland should not be a PL side next season in my view.

Sorry, House boy, but even I remember sometime pre playoffs, one February sat in the Bob lord, thinking this is boring, we can't go up or down

Probably a relief, at not going down........

Try telling Millwall no play offs, its going to be their only chance.....

oh, and don't take 94 and 2009 away from the underdog, the best days ever

[houseboy]

I do yes. because that's what all the teams have agreed to before the ref blows the whistle on the very first opening game.

But have they agreed to it? They don’t have any choice apart from to resign from the league. That’s not going to happen so they have no choice, but being forced into a situation does not equate to agreeing to it. I bet Sheffield Utd don’t think the play offs are a good idea.

[houseboy]

Absolutely, but go back just a fortnight to January 17th. Had they scored either of those penalties then they would have been joint top with 53 points, leapfrogging us who would have been on 52.
It would have been:
Leeds 53
Sun. 53
Burnley 52
Blades 52.
Just shows how brilliant both us and Leeds were form that point on.

But they didn’t score them. By the same standard had we won one of those home draws we would have been champions but we didn’t.

[Jakubclaret]

But have they agreed to it? They don’t have any choice apart from to resign from the league. That’s not going to happen so they have no choice, but being forced into a situation does not equate to agreeing to it. I bet Sheffield Utd don’t think the play offs are a good idea.

It is what it is. It's been like that for years without any problems I'm not sure what you are piping up for & making a big deal out of things. It will always benefit some clubs & not others. It's as broad as it's long.

[houseboy]

They were 3 points off automatic promotion at the end of January so it’s a bit weird they gave up on it in November.

I was just quoting what I read in the media. Either way they finished 14 points shy of third and 24 short of auto so it’s all a bit academic where they were in November or January.
I suppose it’s all down to personal preference and I get what people mean about keeping things exciting, and it does, but I cannot get with a team getting promoted over a team that finished 14 points ahead of them and never will.

[Deathtrip]

Sorry bud. We have to agree to differ. Sunderland should not be a PL side next season in my view.

Sunderland earned the right,just like we did in 09 in the Playoffs,to say Sunderland should not be a Premier league team next season is plain stupid.

[houseboy]

It is what it is. It's been like that for years without any problems I'm not sure what you are piping up for & making a big deal out of things. It will always benefit some clubs & not others. It's as broad as it's long.

I’m ’piping up’ because this is a discussion forum and as long as I’m not abusive, which I never am, then I can say pretty much anything I like really. It’s called free speech which is allowed for both of us I believe. We have differing views that’s all. I think you are wrong and you think I am, that’s okay isn’t it?
To quote the best quote ever (in my view) ‘I disagree with everything that man says, but I would die fighting for his right to say it’.
(And I still hate the play offs - ).
Cheers bud.

[Wokingclaret]

The old saying "them are the rules".

Spuds qualifying for the Champions League

[houseboy]

Sunderland earned the right,just like we did in 09 in the Playoffs,to say Sunderland should not be a Premier league team next season is plain stupid.

In your opinion. By the way the word stupid is a word I never use because it insinuates that the person you are speaking to is somehow lacking in intelligence, which I can assure you I am not. I have a valid opinion that simply differs from yours, that does NOT make it stupid. Stupid is, I find, a word used by people who can not tolerate other’s opinions because they have such a high opinion of their own.

[houseboy]

The old saying "them are the rules".

Spuds qualifying for the Champions League

Ha ha. Don’t get me started on the ridiculously named Champions League. A competition where about 75% of those in it are not champions of anything, and some never have been.

I await eagerly the poster who goes to the trouble of telling me exactly what the percentage is. I don’t really care but I think people get my drift.

[quoonbeatz]

I was just quoting what I read in the media. Either way they finished 14 points shy of third and 24 short of auto so it’s all a bit academic where they were in November or January.
I suppose it’s all down to personal preference and I get what people mean about keeping things exciting, and it does, but I cannot get with a team getting promoted over a team that finished 14 points ahead of them and never will.

It’s not academic if you’re quoting something where someone said they’ve been playing friendlies since November. Probably explains why they finished so far behind.

[Jakubclaret]

I’m ’piping up’ because this is a discussion forum and as long as I’m not abusive, which I never am, then I can say pretty much anything I like really. It’s called free speech which is allowed for both of us I believe. We have differing views that’s all. I think you are wrong and you think I am, that’s okay isn’t it?
To quote the best quote ever (in my view) ‘I disagree with everything that man says, but I would die fighting for his right to say it’.
(And I still hate the play offs - ).
Cheers bud.

I don't think I'm the only 1 that disagrees with you. Sometimes things are old hat & this for me is definitely 1 so I'll let you flog this dead horse with others. Have a good day bud.

[houseboy]

It’s not academic if you’re quoting something where someone said they’ve been playing friendlies since November. Probably explains why they finished so far behind.

I’m afraid it is really. If I was wrong then I was wrong (although I did read such a piece) but maybe that was wrong as well. Either way they were absolutely nowhere near the top three at the end. Or am I wrong?

[quoonbeatz]

I’m afraid it is really. If I was wrong then I was wrong (although I did read such a piece) but maybe that was wrong as well. Either way they were absolutely nowhere near the top three at the end. Or am I wrong?

They were nowhere near the top two, which is what counts.

[nil_desperandum]

But they didn’t score them. By the same standard had we won one of those home draws we would have been champions but we didn’t.

But in context, my post has nothing to do with whether they scored them or how the final table finished.
Someone earlier in the thread suggested that Sunderland were out of the hunt for the top two back in November, and both Quoonbeatz and myself were using the league table and points in mid / late January to prove that this was clearly not the case. They were pretty much equal with Leeds, the Blades and ourselves.
Having missed both penalties they were still just 2 points off being joint top - that was my point. I wasn't speculating as to how different things might have been had they not been saved.
Their chances of the top two were definitely not over in November

[dougcollins]

Their long -term strategy paid off. They coasted to some extent in the last couple of months and concentrated on the play-offs.

Sheff Utd kept on trying for top two right until the point it was impossible.

When it came to the crunch, Sunderland had more in the tank - mentally and physically - for the biggest game.

[No Ney Never]

I was typing this when you posted Doug, may as well post it since I went to the trouble.

That Sunderland finished the season 14 points behind SU could be because of how Sunderland managed the run in, rather than how much better SU are perceived by some to be the better team.
Sheff U insisted on going all out to finish the season on 90 points, why when they had the play offs coming up?
Sunderland took the opposite stance, valuing preservation for the most important 3 games. We now know how that turned out!

SU have suffered a double whammy this season. The 3 games they dropped in April, falling out of the top 2 automatic places, allowing us to take advantage and the play off final. As José Mourinho once said of Arsene Wenger, they are serial losers!

[Spijed]

Their long -term strategy paid off. They coasted to some extent in the last couple of months and concentrated on the play-offs.

Sheff Utd kept on trying for top two right until the point it was impossible.

When it came to the crunch, Sunderland had more in the tank - mentally and physically - for the biggest game.

tbf Sheffield United should have been leading by quite a few before Sunderland scored. It wasn't exactly a well executed game plan by Sunderland

[houseboy]

But in context, my post has nothing to do with whether they scored them or how the final table finished.
Someone earlier in the thread suggested that Sunderland were out of the hunt for the top two back in November, and both Quoonbeatz and myself were using the league table and points in mid / late January to prove that this was clearly not the case. They were pretty much equal with Leeds, the Blades and ourselves.
Having missed both penalties they were still just 2 points off being joint top - that was my point. I wasn't speculating as to how different things might have been had they not been saved.
Their chances of the top two were definitely not over in November

I take your point.

[houseboy]

I don't think I'm the only 1 that disagrees with you. Sometimes things are old hat & this for me is definitely 1 so I'll let you flog this dead horse with others. Have a good day bud.

Excuse me, is this the right room for an argument?

Only joking, we all love a good debate but in the end we are all Clarets. No hard feelings to you or anyone. And indeed a very good day to you too.

[NottsClaret]

tbf Sheffield United should have been leading by quite a few before Sunderland scored. It wasn't exactly a well executed game plan by Sunderland

True that. Too easy to see patterns or some masterplan in football with hindsight. If they played the 49th game without VAR as they had the previous 48, Sheff United go 2-0 up and Sunderland go on to get battered.

But it’s a one off game, **** happens, Sunderland rode their luck and then took their chances. Probably best not to over analyse it, it is what it is.

[wilks_bfc]

tbf Sheffield United should have been leading by quite a few before Sunderland scored. It wasn't exactly a well executed game plan by Sunderland

It wasn’t but losing one of their most influential players in O’Nien in the first 2mins wouldn’t have been in the game plan

[jlup1980]

I think Burnley and Sunderland have been rewarded for thinking outside the box in January. We signed Edwards, they signed Le Fee, and you could argue those were the deciding factors in our promotions.

Sheff U went for more of the same by signing Cannon and Brereton Diaz. Wilder wanted more battering rams to bully his way back to the Premier League. In hindsight, Cannon was a dreadful signing, and Brereton Diaz just about ok, but neither added much to the existing squad.

Looking back, it's a good thing Sheff U beat us to getting Cannon and Boro beat us for Whittaker! Sliding doors moments.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Incidentally for those who think the play offs make it more exciting over the season please think on this: Sunderland have had virtually nothing to play for since about November. I even read a comment from a Sunderland fan a week or two ago who said since November it’s just been like playing friendlies.

https://www.transfermarkt.com/champions ... pieltag=19

7th December Sunderland beat Stoke leaving them 2 points off 2nd and 3 points off top

https://www.transfermarkt.com/champions ... pieltag=26

5th Jan points off 1st and 2nd still the same

They were 3 points off 2nd in Feb. How did they have nothing to play for since November

[ClaretOfMancunia]

Post from a Sheff U fan on Reddit, asked if he'd keep Wilder...

Out for me.

Full respect to him for everything he's achieved over the two spells, but I think it's time.

Lost the ability to get the better of similar quality teams tactically (we lost SIX of the seven games we played against the promoted three).

Made a huge mess of the January transfer window, spending £10m on a dud, when everyone could see we needed to use the money to replace Souttar.

Square pegs in round holes all season. Hamer on the left wing, BBD on the right wing, etc.

Can't get discipline under control at the club, causing us half a million quid in fines.

Can't get his players fit, with even key players unable to make it past 60-70 minutes.

Tactics have gone backwards. In league one we were inventive, with creative set pieces and overlapping centre-backs. Our squad is now worth ten times more, but spent the play-off final resorting to long ball like a team in league two.

[Spijed]

I think Burnley and Sunderland have been rewarded for thinking outside the box in January. We signed Edwards, they signed Le Fee, and you could argue those were the deciding factors in our promotions.

Sheff U went for more of the same by signing Cannon and Brereton Diaz. Wilder wanted more battering rams to bully his way back to the Premier League. In hindsight, Cannon was a dreadful signing, and Brereton Diaz just about ok, but neither added much to the existing squad.

Looking back, it's a good thing Sheff U beat us to getting Cannon and Boro beat us for Whittaker! Sliding doors moments.

When Sunderland signed Le Fee they were only two points behind Sheffield United and us and three off Leeds.

[kentonclaret]

https://www.transfermarkt.com/champions ... pieltag=19

7th December Sunderland beat Stoke leaving them 2 points off 2nd and 3 points off top

https://www.transfermarkt.com/champions ... pieltag=26

5th Jan points off 1st and 2nd still the same

They were 3 points off 2nd in Feb. How did they have nothing to play for since November

As I understood it the final nail in the coffin, as far as Sunderland’s automatic promotion hopes were concerned, were hammered in by Leeds on 17th February when they lost 2-1 to an injury time goal having led for much of the game.

[dsr]

As I understood it the final nail in the coffin, as far as Sunderland’s automatic promotion hopes were concerned, were hammered in by Leeds on 17th February when they lost 2-1 to an injury time goal having led for much of the game.

Even that wasn't a nail in the coffin, because at the end of February they were still only 3 points behind us. As it happens they could have won every game after that and still not caught up, so in that sense it was the "final nail" - but they couldn't know that at the time.

[kentonclaret]

Even that wasn't a nail in the coffin, because at the end of February they were still only 3 points behind us. As it happens they could have won every game after that and still not caught up, so in that sense it was the "final nail" - but they couldn't know that at the time.

This taken from the BBC website on their report following the 2-1 defeat by Leeds United

“Sunderland’s players dropped to the ground as Leeds’ bench emptied to celebrate the late, late winner and their slim automatic promotion chances look distant now.”

If the Sunderland manager held the same view that their race was run then it goes some way to explaining the drop off in performances and results.

[jlup1980]

When Sunderland signed Le Fee they were only two points behind Sheffield United and us and three off Leeds.

He changed the game when moved inside at the weekend though. They certainly didn't look likely before they made that change. Ultimately, I just feel they gave themselves a different option in signing him, as we did with Edwards.