Liverpool Parade

[Jakubclaret]

Without wishing to get into the ins & outs or possible conspiracy stories on a human level I hope everybody's ok. Let the dust settle & the truth will emerge when everythings calmed down.

[BurnleyFC]

Sickening footage.

[martin_p]

Thankfully no fatalities. 27 injured in hospital, two seriously.

[HahaYeah]

https://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/football ... e-35290168

Merseyside Police have confirmed they have arrested a 53-year-old man after a car was driven into Liverpool fans during their Premier League title parade. Hundreds of thousands lined the streets as an open-top bus, carrying the players made it's way through the city.

But reports emerged that an individual had driven into fans, with unconfirmed reports that multiple people have been injured.

The initial statement from the police force read: "We are currently dealing with reports of an RTC in Liverpool city centre. We were contacted at just after 6pm today, Mon 26 May, following reports a car had been in collision with a number of pedestrians on Water Street. The car stopped at the scene and a male detained."

Further details were then clarified with the arrest confirmed. A second statement added: “We would ask people not to speculate on the circumstances surrounding tonight’s incident on Water Street in Liverpool city centre. We can confirm the man arrested is a 53-year-old white British man from the Liverpool area.

[Lu-tze]

I mean, in the immediate aftermath of Southport, people flooded social media with reports of the perpetrator being of a certain religion, with a certain skin colour and that he was known to the authorities. The authorities were then quick to quash those rumours and published information of their own.
As a result, people who used their social media accounts to spread the original information were prosecuted and some were jailed.
Later, it was revealed that almost everything initially posted about the perpetrator was correct, and it was the governments version of the truth that was wrong.
People still in prison.

That’s all I mean.

I wonder if in the future, any incidents of this type will result in the immediate reporting of ethnicity before anything else? And if it isn’t reported as that, are people to assume that it is not a white, british person?

People were prosecuted and jailed for inciting violence- such as ‘set fire to all the effing hotels full of the b@stards’

Subsequently attempts were made to set hotels on fire housing asylum seekers…

In a perfect world his ethnicity shouldn’t have to be mentioned at all as whatever has happened should be just left to the authorities to get to the bottom of.

However unfortunately that’s not the world we’re living in anymore.

It’s sad that now they feel forced to because if they say nothing there are so many bad actors poised to whip up violence and mayhem.

[Jakubclaret]

Everything just needs to calm down & tomorrow will be a different day & a better time to assess things properly in a peaceful manner.

[Damo]

People were prosecuted and jailed for inciting violence- such as ‘set fire to all the effing hotels full of the b@stards’

Subsequently attempts were made to set hotels on fire housing asylum seekers…

In a perfect world his ethnicity shouldn’t have to be mentioned at all as whatever has happened should be just left to the authorities to get to the bottom of.

However unfortunately that’s not the world we’re living in anymore.

It’s sad that now they feel forced to because if they say nothing there are so many bad actors poised to whip up violence and mayhem.

Didnt the authorities and bad actors attempt to whip up violence and mayhem against Welsh male voice choirs the last time something like this happened?

[HahaYeah]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cy0k4r20dr0o

This from the BBC.

Four children were among dozens injured after a car was driven into a crowd of pedestrians who had watched Liverpool FC's open-top bus Premier League trophy parade.

The people carrier struck a dense crowd on Water Street in the city centre at shortly before 18:00 BST - an attack not being treated as a terrorist incident by police.

Merseyside Police said a 53-year-old white British man from the Liverpool area, believed to have been the driver, was detained at the scene and added it is not looking for anyone else.

[AlargeClaret]

Have to say , though stomach churning the footage was, I genuinely thought the car had taken a wrong turn ? Got people banging on car then surrounding it trying to get him out and he seriously panicked and ended up hitting people then stopped when he realised the carnage he’d caused ?

[Murger]

According to the first edition newspapers released last night, it sounds like the driver was ****** up.

[Row x]

Have to say , though stomach churning the footage was, I genuinely thought the car had taken a wrong turn ? Got people banging on car then surrounding it trying to get him out and he seriously panicked and ended up hitting people then stopped when he realised the carnage he’d caused ?

Prior to the footage which shows the car driving into the crowds, there are video's and photos showing the car being surrounded by groups of people banging on the car, smashing it's windows and opening the door trying to drag the driver out, something had obviously happened prior to the final incident.
As a previous poster said it brought back memories of similar scenes in Belfast during the troubles.

[CaptJohn]

The Police have opened up a massive can of worms here by indicating the colour of the alleged perpetrator. I expect them to carry on doing this for every suspect they arrest going forwards but of course they won't, will they.

[fidelcastro]

The Police have opened up a massive can of worms here by indicating the colour of the alleged perpetrator. I expect them to carry on doing this for every suspect they arrest going forwards but of course they won't, will they.

Probably so idiots, who saw a rumour online, didn't start using it as an excuse to attack mosques and asylum centres.

[CaptJohn]

Probably so idiots, who saw a rumour online, didn't start using it as an excuse to attack mosques and asylum centres.

As long as they are fair and report other colour/races immediately, I have no issue with it. If not we are indeed living in a two tier system.

[Clovius Boofus]

There were tens of thousands near enough trapped in the city centre, and many of them would have been in a state of shock and anger. Given the extraordinary circumstances, the police and the authorities did a good job updating the public, but this isn't what some people want to hear these days.

[fidelcastro]

The issue now though is if the police don’t announce it in future, those same people will make assumptions regardless

I guess there are people paid to make such judgement calls on what is the safest thing to do at the time of such incidents.

[Jakubclaret]

The Police have opened up a massive can of worms here by indicating the colour of the alleged perpetrator. I expect them to carry on doing this for every suspect they arrest going forwards but of course they won't, will they.

The main thing people want to hear is that people are ok first & foremost especially if you have loved 1s caught up in the incident. Anything else besides that holds little relevance. But true to form you will get some jumping on to something that isn't there to create drama.

[bumba]

Probably so idiots, who saw a rumour online, didn't start using it as an excuse to attack mosques and asylum centres.

What if he was a white British Muslim?

[fidelcastro]

What if he was a white British Muslim?

Was he?

If not, then your question is irrelevant.

[Rileybobs]

Some of you need to take a look at yourselves. Sickos.

[claretonthecoast1882]

Quite depressing the first thought for some is the colour of the driver

[bumba]

Was he?

If not, then your question is irrelevant.

like yourself I have no idea, your forming your own opinion very quickly using previous history such as Southport to form your opinion which the public were correct on whilst you use your opinion to beat the public and spout garbage and bringing politics in to it.
The irony is everything your calling out is what you are actually doing most.
Nobody knows the facts and reasons yet.

[fidelcastro]

Quite depressing the first thought for some is the colour of the driver

Joey Barton and Laurence Fox are getting plenty of stick for doing just that.

[fidelcastro]

like yourself I have no idea, your forming your own opinion very quickly using previous history such as Southport to form your opinion which the public were correct on whilst you use your opinion to beat the public and spout garbage and bringing politics in to it.
The irony is everything your calling out is what you are actually doing most.
Nobody knows the facts and reasons yet.

Which part of the atrocity in Southport were the public correct on?

[claretonthecoast1882]

Joey Barton and Laurence Fox are getting plenty of stick for doing just that.

Neither of those names surprise me, Fox especially he comes across as a massive bellend

[Alanstevensonsgloves]

Have to say , though stomach churning the footage was, I genuinely thought the car had taken a wrong turn ? Got people banging on car then surrounding it trying to get him out and he seriously panicked and ended up hitting people then stopped when he realised the carnage he’d caused ?

Two eye witness accounts on the BBC website, one from an actual BBC reporter, would support Alargeclaret's supposition - which to stress is all it is at the moment.

[ClaretPete001]

Two eye witness accounts on the BBC website, one from an actual BBC reporter, would support Alargeclaret's supposition - which to stress is all it is at the moment.

It does look like someone has made a mistake and panicked in the moment. Thankfully the outcome seems to be nowhere near as bad as it could have been.

[Jakubclaret]

It does look like someone has made a mistake and panicked in the moment. Thankfully the outcome seems to be nowhere near as bad as it could have been.

It's plausible driving can be very stressful & can cause severe anxiety leading to catastrophic consequences.

[brexit]

Media here suggesting he tailgated an ambulance and was on drugs
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... all-parade

[ŽižkovClaret]

Media here suggesting he tailgated an ambulance and was on drugs
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... all-parade

Yeah that has pretty much nixed any remaining smidge of sympathy from me

[brexit]

Slightly off-topic it would appear that tragedy and circumstance stalk the people of Liverpool

[Quickenthetempo]

Media here suggesting he tailgated an ambulance and was on drugs
https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/2 ... all-parade

I heard the the tailgating story before watching on the news, the news programme showed cctv of them both claiming it was minutes after the ambulance.
So it looks like security have taken barriers/cones away to let the ambulance in and not replaced them, tailgating is seconds behind not minutes.
It's going to take some sorting out this, witnesses say him constantly beeping his horn led to them not being hit. That could prove he didn't do it deliberately.
Not sure the attempted murder charges will stick, unless he admits he tried killing other Liverpool fans in revenge for them smashing his car up?

Drug driving will get a charge. Dangerous driving?

[ollieclarets8]

Drug driving will get a charge. Dangerous driving?

I'd go along with that. I'd be amazed if attempted murder was brought forward.

[NewClaret]

I'd go along with that. I'd be amazed if attempted murder was brought forward.

You don’t think that putting your foot on the accelerator of a very large car/SUV and swerving in to the most crowded parts of the streets, where hoards of innocent families were congregating to avoid the car, hitting 50 people and dragging several under his car was not something deliberate, pre-meditated and something he’d have known could kill people?

[ollieclarets8]

You don’t think that putting your foot on the accelerator of a very large car/SUV and swerving in to the most crowded parts of the streets, where hoards of innocent families were congregating to avoid the car, hitting 50 people and dragging several under his car was not something deliberate, pre-meditated and something he’d have known could kill people?

It's based on what I've seen so I could well be wrong. He looks to reverse due to someone putting is rear window in and then speed forward as people are tring to break into his car. Surely he'd put his foot down and drive a far greater distance if he was actually trying to murder. You might be right though, guess we don't have all the details regarding his drug levels / state of mind.

[Goliath]

I heard the the tailgating story before watching on the news, the news programme showed cctv of them both claiming it was minutes after the ambulance.
So it looks like security have taken barriers/cones away to let the ambulance in and not replaced them, tailgating is seconds behind not minutes.
It's going to take some sorting out this, witnesses say him constantly beeping his horn led to them not being hit. That could prove he didn't do it deliberately.
Not sure the attempted murder charges will stick, unless he admits he tried killing other Liverpool fans in revenge for them smashing his car up?

Drug driving will get a charge. Dangerous driving?

It definitely has the feel of someone not doing their job thoroughly at some point for this to happen

[Quickenthetempo]

He’s been charged with multiple offences, including dangerous driving, as I understand.

He stopped, reversed at someone damaging his car, then accelerated into crowds of people not implicated at all in any the initial fracas, driving right then left to hit as many of them as he could.

Unless it’s proven that he had a medical episode, which is very unlikely given he was recorded conscious and closing his own door just before accelerating in to the crowds, there’s no reason an attempted murder charge won’t stick in my opinion.

The courts and justice system will most likely, and correctly, make an example of him to act as a deterrent for this type of behaviour in future.

We are only speculating off the videos and news stories and the police interview should reveal the most of intent.
I have never drove on drugs and in fear of a mob attacking me, dragging me out a car etc..
I presume reaction times will be slower on drugs? Did he just floor the accelerator to get away and swerve back to correct?
I'm glad I don't have to make judgement on it.

[NewClaret]

It's based on what I've seen so I could well be wrong. He looks to reverse due to someone putting is rear window in and then speed forward as people are tring to break into his car. Surely he'd put his foot down and drive a far greater distance if he was actually trying to murder. You might be right though, guess we don't have all the details regarding his drug levels / state of mind.

He drives a fair way after that incident. Certainly a good distance in the scheme of him being on a crowded street.

I think he’s just drugged up to the eyeballs, gets in a rage and decides to floor it, presumably until the people he is crushing stop his car from travelling any further.

I see no way the CPS won’t go for the highest possible charge.

[NewClaret]

We are only speculating off the videos and news stories and the police interview should reveal the most of intent.
I have never drove on drugs and in fear of a mob attacking me, dragging me out a car etc..
I presume reaction times will be slower on drugs? Did he just floor the accelerator to get away and swerve back to correct?
I'm glad I don't have to make judgement on it.

To be honest I see the drugs as an aggravating factor that will work against him. Had he been in a normal state of mind he might’ve not turned in to crowds or then reacted in the way he did.

He deliberately got behind the wheel of an SUV after taking drugs (illegal), then drove backwards in to one person, stopped and accelerated forward in to 50 or so more. Whether he felt scared is a bit inconsequential, I’d say.

[Mattster]

You don’t think that putting your foot on the accelerator of a very large car/SUV and swerving in to the most crowded parts of the streets, where hoards of innocent families were congregating to avoid the car, hitting 50 people and dragging several under his car was not something deliberate, pre-meditated and something he’d have known could kill people?

I don't think CPS would be willing to go forward with it because they'll say they wouldn't be able to get the intent to kill to stick in court. This is based off my own experience arguing the toss with CPS on charging decisions*. The legal interpretation of "intent" in offences of such magnitude (rightly or wrongly) doesn't necessarily follow common sense.

I'm not sure what they'll do but I can't see attempt murder sticking, I wouldn't be surprised if attempted murder was dropped to multiple S18 GBH or possibly even S20 GBH (though that carries the same max penalty as causing serious injury by dangerous driving). My money would be on S18 GBH (assuming there's that level of injury)

*I've heard CPS refuse attempted murder (and go for GBH with intent) for someone who stabbed someone whilst shouting "Die!". In the past I've had a case where the victim was stabbed multiple times in the torso before offender then returned and battered them further (including stamping on victim's head multiple times) and the CPS lawyer say they didn't feel there was intent because they didn't go back a further time to make sure they'd finished him off - that one I managed to talk around.

[brexit]

If he was on the old Bolivian marching powder, paranoia and bad decisions are to be expected

[RicardoMontalban]

He’s been charged with multiple offences, including dangerous driving, as I understand.

He stopped, reversed at someone damaging his car, then accelerated into crowds of people not implicated at all in any the initial fracas, driving right then left to hit as many of them as he could.

Unless it’s proven that he had a medical episode, which is very unlikely given he was recorded conscious and closing his own door just before accelerating in to the crowds, there’s no reason an attempted murder charge won’t stick in my opinion.

The courts and justice system will most likely, and correctly, make an example of him to act as a deterrent for this type of behaviour in future.

He’s been arrested, but unless I’ve missed something he hasn’t yet been charged. Latest updates suggest officers have been given more time to question.

[Row x]

He’s been charged with multiple offences, including dangerous driving, as I understand.

He stopped, reversed at someone damaging his car, then accelerated into crowds of people not implicated at all in any the initial fracas, driving right then left to hit as many of them as he could.

Unless it’s proven that he had a medical episode, which is very unlikely given he was recorded conscious and closing his own door just before accelerating in to the crowds, there’s no reason an attempted murder charge won’t stick in my opinion.

The courts and justice system will most likely, and correctly, make an example of him to act as a deterrent for this type of behaviour in future.

He hasn't been charged

[NewClaret]

He’s been arrested, but unless I’ve missed something he hasn’t yet been charged. Latest updates suggest officers have been given more time to question.

That’s correct, sorry, used the wrong word there.

[RicardoMontalban]

That’s correct, sorry, used the wrong word there.

More than that. There’s quite a distinction between ‘arrested’ and ‘charged’ as part of the process of an investigation.

Perhaps what you have suggested to be the case is correct, or perhaps there’s information that we’re not privy to that means it’s not so straightforward.

[NewClaret]

I don't think CPS would be willing to go forward with it because they'll say they wouldn't be able to get the intent to kill to stick in court. This is based off my own experience arguing the toss with CPS on charging decisions*. The legal interpretation of "intent" in offences of such magnitude (rightly or wrongly) doesn't necessarily follow common sense.

I'm not sure what they'll do but I can't see attempt murder sticking, I wouldn't be surprised if attempted murder was dropped to multiple S18 GBH or possibly even S20 GBH (though that carries the same max penalty as causing serious injury by dangerous driving). My money would be on S18 GBH (assuming there's that level of injury)

*I've heard CPS refuse attempted murder (and go for GBH with intent) for someone who stabbed someone whilst shouting "Die!". In the past I've had a case where the victim was stabbed multiple times in the torso before offender then returned and battered them further (including stamping on victim's head multiple times) and the CPS lawyer say they didn't feel there was intent because they didn't go back a further time to make sure they'd finished him off - that one I managed to talk around.

I think the counter argument will be that anyone getting behind the wheel whilst drugged up, then driving through a parade, stoping, accelerating and swerving in to the crowds, gives enough evidence to charge.

The examples you cite are horrendous and do highlight what a ridiculous justice system we have in this country, but I think the differing factors here are a) he drove in to crowds of people at speed, swerving to hit more as he did so - he can’t possibly, in my mind, have not had intent to kill or known his actions may kill somebody when making that decision, b) the huge scale media and political pressure that will be on the police/CPS/courts to prosecute and punish in a way that acts as a severe deterrent.

Whether they can make it stick or it gets changed as tensions calm down is another matter, but I can’t see them not going for the highest possible charge in the first instance.

[NewClaret]

More than that. There’s quite a distinction between ‘arrested’ and ‘charged’ as part of the process of an investigation.

Perhaps what you have suggested to be the case is correct, or perhaps there’s information that we’re not privy to that means it’s not so straightforward.

Yes, understand the difference between being arrested and charged, just used the wrong term when typing quickly.

My argument is: I can’t see a scenario where the offences he’s been arrested for don’t become charges unless there is something very unexpected is uncovered as part of the investigation.

A medical episode might be one such example, but since he was caught on camera looking fit and well, closing his car door moments before accelerating in to the crowds, I’d say that’s fairly unlikely.

Either way, I expect we’ll know pretty soon.

[Quickenthetempo]

Yes, understand the difference between being arrested and charged, just used the wrong term when typing quickly.

My argument is: I can’t see a scenario where the offences he’s been arrested for don’t become charges unless there is something very unexpected is uncovered as part of the investigation.

A medical episode might be one such example, but since he was caught on camera looking fit and well, closing his car door moments before accelerating in to the crowds, I’d say that’s fairly unlikely.

Either way, I expect we’ll know pretty soon.

That closing the door will be a big piece of evidence in the case. The defence will argue a crowd opening his door in an aggressive manner put his safety in great danger.
Those attacking his vehicle certainly didn't do the fans further up any favours.

[NewClaret]

That closing the door will be a big piece of evidence in the case. The defence will argue a crowd opening his door in an aggressive manner put his safety in great danger.
Those attacking his vehicle certainly didn't do the fans further up any favours.

I agree it will play a big part in the case. It will confirm he was alert, not suffering any medical emergency, conscious enough of his actions to react quickly enough to close the door and focussed on the road ahead so could clearly see the people he was about to drive in to. I think if the defence were able to make that piece of evidence disappear, they would.

[Walton]

Those attacking his vehicle certainly didn't do the fans further up any favours.

Sounds awfully like the nonsense which went on in some quarters after Hillsborough.

'If those at the back had just stopped pushing' etc