Have we had investment?

[gandhisflipflop]

I am incredibly impressed with our business so far, and I know any journo can link us with any player, the links to potential signings have been far better than I can ever remember to the point where I think why would x player join us? Just reading the transfer thread alone and we have had links to players thought to be way out of our reach. That and the imminent espanyol purchase I just question whether or not we have had some investment?

[agreenwood]

Can’t see any evidence yet that we’re spending more than we have previously.

In fact, to date we’re on track to spend a lot less in transfer fees than we did two years ago. Two of our best players last year obviously weren’t impressed enough with what we’ve offered to renew their contracts.

Only Walkers likely wages really makes this summer look pricey.

[NewClaret]

There was an article about us raising £150m recently. I expect we have had investment and maybe that’s partly going towards buying Espanyol (that will likely be purchased over many years like we were), and partly towards helping keep us in the Premier League. I hope so, anyway.

[NewClaret]

Can’t see any evidence yet that we’re spending more than we have previously.

In fact, to date we’re on track to spend a lot less in transfer fees than we did two years ago. Two of our best players last year obviously weren’t impressed enough with what we’ve offered to renew their contracts.

Only Walkers likely wages really makes this summer look pricey.

Agree with this as well. That’s the stand out deal from a cost perspective.

[agreenwood]

Agree with this as well. That’s the stand out deal from a cost perspective.

Been trying to find it again since I read it, but there’s some recent data on how many footballers signed for a fee under €20m in the last few years played regularly for a club that finished above 18th.

The answer was very, very few.

[NewClaret]

Been trying to find it again since I read it, but there’s some recent data on how many footballers signed for a fee under €20m in the last few years played regularly for a club that finished above 18th.

The answer was very, very few.

That’s incredible but not unsurprising really. Every player in the Premier League is now a £25m+ player! The job to catch up is near impossible.

[Cooclaret]

Yes

[123EasyasBFC]

Yes

Can you give any further details?

[Goliath]

That’s incredible but not unsurprising really. Every player in the Premier League is now a £25m+ player! The job to catch up is near impossible.

Think there's a bit of exaggeration here. How many of Brentfords first 11 were 25 million plus? Genuine question I have no idea but I'd imagine most were less than 25 mill

[agreenwood]

Think there's a bit of exaggeration here. How many of Brentfords first 11 were 25 million plus? Genuine question I have no idea but I'd imagine most were less than 25 mill

It was signings in the last few seasons, not players who have been there ages.

The point of the data I saw that very few players now sign for less than €20m and start regularly for teams who don’t get relegated.

I didn’t go through every signing of the last few seasons to verify it, so it could have been exaggerated.

[CyrilEbokiPoh]

I was inclined to post a similar message. I saw the rumours of investors. And talk of raising capital. And links to checketts etc.

I would not be surprised. The prem is where investors want to be for many obvious reasons (good and bad).

[Chester Perry]

Been trying to find it again since I read it, but there’s some recent data on how many footballers signed for a fee under €20m in the last few years played regularly for a club that finished above 18th.

The answer was very, very few.

That would be this one which I have reposted from the MMT before

Most of this we kind of instinctively know but within this article there are some interesting little stats - like a £20m fee (more than our club has ever paid) for a player makes him only worthy as being a ttarter for a club likely to be relegated (18th placed team). There is also further details that can be seen as indicators as why Olympic Lyonnais have fallen foul of the DNCG

from The Athletic

Premier League clubs have the greatest spending power – but it comes at a cost…
https://archive.ph/YNO1R

[Chester Perry]

There was an article about us raising £150m recently. I expect we have had investment and maybe that’s partly going towards buying Espanyol (that will likely be purchased over many years like we were), and partly towards helping keep us in the Premier League. I hope so, anyway.

You are conflating ALK/Velocity and Burnley FC - the money (not then raised) was to develop the investment in creating a multi-club group

it appeared here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81882&p=2567253&hil ... g#p2567253

and the original can be viewed here as an archive copy

it is transposed word for word above - but for future reference here is an archive copy of the article which also helps with the paywall issue if you want to see the original

Burnley FC Owner Seeks £150 Million for Multi-Club Strategy
https://archive.ph/ZyjW3

[NewClaret]

Think there's a bit of exaggeration here. How many of Brentfords first 11 were 25 million plus? Genuine question I have no idea but I'd imagine most were less than 25 mill

Fair enough, I don’t know either, which is why I’d be interested in seeing agreenwood’s article/data. But I bet there’s not many who should sell for less now?

[NewClaret]

It was signings in the last few seasons, not players who have been there ages.

The point of the data I saw that very few players now sign for less than €20m and start regularly for teams who don’t get relegated.

I didn’t go through every signing of the last few seasons to verify it, so it could have been exaggerated.

I think he was saying I’d exaggerated it, which I did by adding 5m and converting to £ but without reading the article it just feels like every player Premier League clubs sign now starts with a 2!

[NewClaret]

You are conflating ALK/Velocity and Burnley FC - the money (not then raised) was to develop the investment in creating a multi-club group

it appeared here viewtopic.php?f=2&t=81882&p=2567253&hil ... g#p2567253

and the original can be viewed here as an archive copy

True, I still see ALK as Burnley really, which I appreciate is factually incorrect. They must have had the investment if the Espanyol purchase is close. My point was some of it may also have been directed to us if they’ve raised more than they need for the initial down payments on Espanyol.

[forzagranata]

But the structure almost certainly wouldn't be Burnley FC owning Espanyol.

ALK/Velocity may own both clubs in some form or another with similar or (slightly different) ownership structures but I would be amazed if the owners of Espanyol were Burnley FC, in fact I don't think that is even possible.

[Chester Perry]

True, I still see ALK as Burnley really, which I appreciate is factually incorrect. They must have had the investment if the Espanyol purchase is close. My point was some of it may also have been directed to us if they’ve raised more than they need for the initial down payments on Espanyol.

Any monies that will come into our club will most likely be as a result of required owner cash input on PSR losses disguised as loan repayments like we saw in the last accounts

EFL - £13m allowable loss requires £10m owner cash input
PL - £35m allowable loss requires £30m owner cash input

[Chester Perry]

But the structure almost certainly wouldn't be Burnley FC owning Espanyol.

ALK/Velocity may own both clubs in some form or another with similar or (slightly different) ownership structures but I would be amazed if the owners of Espanyol were Burnley FC, in fact I don't think that is even possible.

Pretty sure it isn't possible

[NewClaret]

But the structure almost certainly wouldn't be Burnley FC owning Espanyol.

ALK/Velocity may own both clubs in some form or another with similar or (slightly different) ownership structures but I would be amazed if the owners of Espanyol were Burnley FC, in fact I don't think that is even possible.

Wasn’t suggesting that, just for the avoidance of doubt. I was just saying if ALK had had investment I’d consider “we’d” had investment, as such.

[Chester Perry]

I am incredibly impressed with our business so far, and I know any journo can link us with any player, the links to potential signings have been far better than I can ever remember to the point where I think why would x player join us? Just reading the transfer thread alone and we have had links to players thought to be way out of our reach. That and the imminent espanyol purchase I just question whether or not we have had some investment?

I would say that there is an expectation of significant incoming fee(s) to balance things a little - there is also still time to spin the wheel on financing again (a range of options are open there) if they need to

[ClaretPete001]

It was signings in the last few seasons, not players who have been there ages.

The point of the data I saw that very few players now sign for less than €20m and start regularly for teams who don’t get relegated.

I didn’t go through every signing of the last few seasons to verify it, so it could have been exaggerated.

It's difficult to say because of add ons but a brief glance at Transfermarket suggests it could be as high as 5 with a couple just shy.

- Igor Thiago
- Fábio Carvalho
- Sepp van den Berg
- Nathan Collins
- Kevin Schade

So, I guess to all intents and purposes even the smaller clubs are spending quite big money.

[ClaretPete001]

The article Chester links to is from last month and suggested ALK are seeking funds.

I have no idea whether they have external funding. I think the Espanyol deal is a good one for ALK so it's possible they will find the funds to do the deal but there is unlikely to be money for transfers etc other than what the club generates from trading.

[IanMcL]

Trafford likely out - personal terms agreed - and Esteve in discussion with Spurs. There's the money.

[Clive 1960]

Trafford likely out - personal terms agreed - and Esteve in discussion with Spurs. There's the money.

Trafford apparently agreed terms last season with Newcastle but we couldn't agree a fee so he stayed and got on with the job in hand, he definitely will go to Newcastle or whoever if they agree the price we want. Esteve not heard anything other than gossip and if we make him captain think he would stay, but as said before money talks..

[ecc]

Trafford likely out - personal terms agreed - and Esteve in discussion with Spurs. There's the money.

With Romero looking to be on the move and Spurs' interest in Maxime in Jan, it looks highly possible. But £30m isn't enough.

[Dark Cloud]

Whilst we might look like we're splashing the cash a bit at the moment, both in terms of actual deals and deals we seem to be chasing, we have to remember that we still have an awful lot of players who are going to be moving out, either permanently or on loan in the next few weeks and there will be much book balancing done I feel.

[ChorltonCharlie]

Worth noting that if the rumours are to be believed we need to make a profit this season to comply with PSR. So even if Elon Musk bought us out, we'd still not be able to spend any more this season.

Fees will slightly be inflated, as we're on a new TV deal, so apart from transfer income I'd imagine we'll have record turnover for the coming season.

[123EasyasBFC]

Worth noting that if the rumours are to be believed we need to make a profit this season to comply with PSR. So even if Elon Musk bought us out, we'd still not be able to spend any more this season.

Fees will slightly be inflated, as we're on a new TV deal, so apart from transfer income I'd imagine we'll have record turnover for the coming season.

Was it not that we needed to be in profit (20m) at the end of July which would be classed as our championship season

[ChorltonCharlie]

Maybe I misunderstood. The article I read in The Athletic seemed to be talking about each clubs spending power for the coming season.

[ChorltonCharlie]

Was it not that we needed to be in profit (20m) at the end of July which would be classed as our championship season

You're right, I've found the article. It was in the context of how much clubs could afford to lose in the last tax year, which for most clubs runs to 30th June, but for us is 31st July. It was only in regards clubs spending in the short transfer window that opened for the Club World Cup.

[RVclaret]

Worth noting that if the rumours are to be believed we need to make a profit this season to comply with PSR. So even if Elon Musk bought us out, we'd still not be able to spend any more this season.

Fees will slightly be inflated, as we're on a new TV deal, so apart from transfer income I'd imagine we'll have record turnover for the coming season.

Our accounting period runs until end of July unlike the rest, and we made £88m of sales post period end, that Athletic article wasn’t entirely accurate, our PSR compliance is more than fine.

[pureclaret]

I think he was saying I’d exaggerated it, which I did by adding 5m and converting to £ but without reading the article it just feels like every player Premier League clubs sign now starts with a 2!

or perhaps £100m

[aggi]

We had a lot of sales, ~ £90m, at the end of last season (that didn't get reflected in last year's accounts as they happened after) that will significantly bump up the profit for 24/25. One big sale this summer plus a raft of smaller sales/loan fees will add even more to that.

We've not spent massive money on any players but really, unless you are spending crazy amounts, it's the wages that push the costs up, not the transfer fees.

[123EasyasBFC]

We had a lot of sales, ~ £90m, at the end of last season (that didn't get reflected in last year's accounts as they happened after) that will significantly bump up the profit for 24/25. One big sale this summer plus a raft of smaller sales/loan fees will add even more to that.

We've not spent massive money on any players but really, unless you are spending crazy amounts, it's the wages that push the costs up, not the transfer fees.

We have spent best part of 60m this summer that will be factored into technically last seasons accounts

[aggi]

Any monies that will come into our club will most likely be as a result of required owner cash input on PSR losses disguised as loan repayments like we saw in the last accounts

EFL - £13m allowable loss requires £10m owner cash input
PL - £35m allowable loss requires £30m owner cash input

Loan repayments from ALK will have no impact on PSR. It's all just balance sheet movements (although will obviously help with cashflow).

[aggi]

We have spent best part of 60m this summer that will be factored into technically last seasons accounts

Well kind of. Costs of signings are spread over their contract.

If you look at someone like Humphreys who we paid £10m for on a 4 year contract at the start of July (not exact figures/dates) then the impact for last season's accounts is only one month of amortisation, so £10m divided by 48 months gives ~ £21k. A pretty minimal amount.

[123EasyasBFC]

Well kind of. Costs of signings are spread over their contract.

If you look at someone like Humphreys who we paid £10m for on a 4 year contract at the start of July (not exact figures/dates) then the impact for last season's accounts is only one month of amortisation, so £10m divided by 48 months gives ~ £21k. A pretty minimal amount.

Can’t say we are due 90m in sales then in the latest accounts because those fees will be spread to

[aggi]

Can’t say we are due 90m in sales then in the latest accounts because those fees will be spread to

No they won't. Revenue from sales is recognised at the time of the transaction.

I'm not talking about cash, I'm talking about PSR which is based on accounting treatment.

[randomclaret2]

Well kind of. Costs of signings are spread over their contract.

If you look at someone like Humphreys who we paid £10m for on a 4 year contract at the start of July (not exact figures/dates) then the impact for last season's accounts is only one month of amortisation, so £10m divided by 48 months gives ~ £21k. A pretty minimal amount.

Isnt £10m divided by 48 £208,000 ?

[123EasyasBFC]

No they won't. Revenue from sales is recognised at the time of the transaction.

I'm not talking about cash, I'm talking about PSR which is based on accounting treatment.

So in PSR terms, sales are reported as having that money in straight away but purchasing is split over the years payment plan?

[RVclaret]

So in PSR terms, sales are reported as having that money in straight away but purchasing is split over the years payment plan?

More or less. Depends on if said player is fully amortised on the books, or not.

McNeil sale to Everton for £20m, McNeil was from the academy and therefore the full £20m allocated as profit.

Berge signed for £12m, 4 year contract (£3m a year amortisation allocation). He was with us for 1 year, so the book value was £9m (roughly). Sold for £20m, so that’s an £11m booked profit for PSR.

[IanMcL]

Trafford apparently agreed terms last season with Newcastle but we couldn't agree a fee so he stayed and got on with the job in hand, he definitely will go to Newcastle or whoever if they agree the price we want. Esteve not heard anything other than gossip and if we make him captain think he would stay, but as said before money talks..

It looks like the club are factoring in revenue from sales, to finance the purchases. If so either/ both Trafford/Esteve potentially largest income. Given their age, potential and length of contract, I think large fees appropriate, however, if there is a PSR need, then maybe Newcastle holding out is a good play by them. If not, they should be made to whistle in the wind.

Nick Pope swap would be a good outcome. He will save us.

[theboydonegood]

Interesting. Trafford sale wouldnt actually gain us that much whilst sale of Costelloe and Massenga would be pure psr profit......

[aggi]

Isnt £10m divided by 48 £208,000 ?

Oops, misplaced my decimal point.

[aggi]

Interesting. Trafford sale wouldnt actually gain us that much whilst sale of Costelloe and Massenga would be pure psr profit......

Yes, that's why clubs are so keen on selling youth players.

Also why you get weird inflated deals like Maatsen's where a youth player goes the other way for £20m or so and you've got a nice PSR profit upfront.

[Clive 1960]

It looks like the club are factoring in revenue from sales, to finance the purchases. If so either/ both Trafford/Esteve potentially largest income. Given their age, potential and length of contract, I think large fees appropriate, however, if there is a PSR need, then maybe Newcastle holding out is a good play by them. If not, they should be made to whistle in the wind.

Nick Pope swap would be a good outcome. He will save us.

Nick as said he's not leaving as European football is what he wants and wants to fight to be no1 , cant blame him at is age. Still think Trafford will be going there if they give what we want...

[ClaretPete001]

We have spent best part of 60m this summer that will be factored into technically last seasons accounts

Indeed, it's not easy/possible to put your finger in the air and guestimate profits. My gut is that it the wage bill will have been very high given the size of the squad and most of the players sold for a lot of money will have been with us only 1 or 2 seasons.

Make of that what you will.

[IanMcL]

Nick as said he's not leaving as European football is what he wants and wants to fight to be no1 , cant blame him at is age. Still think Trafford will be going there if they give what we want...

So either Pope will be Number 1 and Trafford gets the cups/European Champs or vice versa!

Maybe Pope wants to work part time as number 2!

[Big Vinny K]

Indeed, it's not easy/possible to put your finger in the air and guestimate profits. My gut is that it the wage bill will have been very high given the size of the squad and most of the players sold for a lot of money will have been with us only 1 or 2 seasons.

Make of that what you will.

Surely there will have been relegation clauses in most if not all of their contracts ? I thought Williams had pretty much confirmed that ?

My gut is that whatever we declare profit wise will be just enough to avoid PSR and also not too much so that we have a hefty corporation tax bill (though last years losses will offset that I presume)

EPL wage bill is a different matter. Looking like £95m is going to become the miminum we can hope for and even then we will remain one of the lowest in the league. This level of wages puts a lot of pressure on getting the player sale model right which unfortunately for us supporters means anybody who performs well is unlikely to be at the club for more than a couple of years maximum (or often a lot less if we get relegated)